#sunjournal941

[daresplaining]

I thought in "Maggie Grace" that Grace was her last name, but I am wrong since seeing other places as Grace as her original first name?

The continuity is not 100% consistent on this, but yes, it's generally been established that her birth name was Grace, and Maggie is the name she chose for herself when she became a nun.

Daredevil vol. 4 #7 by Mark Waid, Javier Rodriguez, Alvaro Lopez, and Joe Caramagna

[nobodysuspectsthebutterfly]

How many generations between Oscar Tully and Hoster Tully and the Blackfish?

Comparative generations between Cregan Stark and Rickard Stark is 6 (Cregan, Brandon, Beron, Willam, Edwyle, Rickard), which sounds about right, even factoring in that Brandon was Cregan's youngest child. Especially what we know about House Tully -- that Celia who might've married Jaehaerys II was probably Hoster and Brynden's aunt -- and the fact that it's about ~120 years between the births of Kermit/Oscar and Hoster/Brynden (120/20=6).

[nobodysuspectsthebutterfly]

Was trying to think of another time after "Blood & Cheese" when Jaehaera Targaryen had a role in the story until her child marriage to her cousin to end the conflict?

Sure, when she's helped to escape during the Fall of King's Landing, when Larys got Aegon II and his surviving kids out of the Red Keep and the city via the secret passages. (A small role, but thankfully not as tragic as her brother Maelor's.) Though Jaehaera was one of those targeted by Rhaenyra and her "knights inquisitor" bounty hunters, the Kingsguard Ser Willis Fell got her to Storm's End safely.

She was at Storm's End for about a year and a half, while Rhaenyra ruled in KL and also after Aegon and the greens retook the city. While the council debated what to do with their hostage Aegon the Younger, including the option of marrying him to Jaehaera, she was still with the Baratheons. After Aegon II's death and after the peace agreements, Jaehaera was escorted back to KL by Lady Elenda Baratheon's father and three of the Four Storms, and of course Willis Fell. (Who became Aegon III's Lord Commander since, uh, he and a rookie were the only Kingsguards left...) And then Jaehaera and Aegon married.

Now, if you're asking if they'll do more with her in the show, since Maelor doesn't exist... 🤷‍♀️ your guess is as good as mine.

[joannalannister]

GMMR loves disputed successions. Cersei seems to believe if she was born a male, she'd have inherited Casterly Rock, but she'd still be a twin. The only other Westerosi twin heirs I can think of are the Redwynes, Ser Horas aka Horrors and Ser Hobber aka Slobber, were regardless of who is older, the succession is disputed. "They used to fight over which would be the next Lord of the Arbor. Now both of them want to join the Kingsguard, just to be near the little queen." (AFFC: Cersei IV).

tbh I wonder whether Paxter Redwyne knows exactly who his heir is, and can tell the difference between Horas and Hobber, but doesn’t share this information because it’s useful to have a decoy and to confuse other people

But anyways, there have been other twin heirs. For example, twins run in the family for House Lannister, and there have been twin heirs in the past

Tywald & Tion Lannister (I predicted twin heirs here before TWOIAF!)

Jason & Tyland Lannister

and maybe others - detailed Lannister history doesn’t go back very far

(There are also twins born to House Lannister who aren’t anyone’s heir, such as Willem & Martyn Lannister. Joanna Lannnister also had two brothers and two sisters that we know nothing about, and I wonder if there is a set of twins there.)

I’m sure that House Lannister has worked out some sort of system for telling the older twin from the younger when they are identical. Maybe the maester / midwife ties a ribbon around the older twin’s wrist. Does anyone have any information on what people did historically to tell twins apart?

So yeah, I think Cersei is justified in believing that, had she born male, she definitely would have been Tywin’s heir and I’m certain she would have inherited Casterly Rock.

[joannalannister]

So "what if" question. Lord Tybolt Lannister has trueborn sons and that line continues while Gerold Lannister and Lady Rohanne Webber's line inherits Coldmoat. The castle and its lands are along the border between the Reach and the Westerlands, right? So do the Coldmoat Lannisters get sworn to Casterly Rock or does Coldmoat remain sworn to Highgarden and this cadet branch of House Lannister becomes a vassal of House Tyrell?

I’m guessing these Coldmoat Lannisters would remain sworn to House Rowan (who is sworn to Highgarden), simply because I think House Rowan and House Tyrell would be very unhappy if they lost one of their vassal Houses and the incomes that came with it. 

Some of Tytos’s vassals switched over to the Reach during his chaotic rule, but I think that was a special case because he was failing in his obligations as their lord to dispense justice and provide protection. Plus, it wasn’t like people were worried that Tytos would go to war to make them a part of the Westerlands again. But I might be wrong here. I’m not 100% sure on this one.

[joannalannister]

Has anybody done a timeline on Dorna Swyft, chinless wife of Ser Kevan Lannister? So she's held hostage by Ser Kevan over her father's debts to the Lannisters after the War of the Ninepenny Kings in 260 AC and before the Reyne-Tarbeck Rebellion in 261 AC and old enough for them to fall in love yet her and Kevan's son Lancel isn't born until at least 282 AC (a 2-decade courtship or childless marriage?!?) and she is still having children up to 297/298 AC with Janei's birth. Does this all work out?

“The lion has awoken,” said Ser Harys Swyft, the Knight of Cornfield, when the collectors arrived at his castle gates. Unable to repay his debt, he turned his daughter over to Ser Kevan as a hostage instead. (TWOIAF)

I imagined Dorna Swyft was still a child in 260AC. Ser Harys Swyft is still healthy enough to fight in TWOT5K, and by 300AC he’s running around in Braavos attending plays, so I think he’s at most 5 years older than Tywin. 

Let’s say Dorna was 5 years old in 260 (so in this scenario I have made up, she would have been born ~255), and then Kevan married her around ~266 (sometime shortly before the twins were born, hence the “meanwhile”):

In 266 AC, Lady Joanna gave birth to twins, a boy and a girl. Meanwhile, Ser Tywin’s brother Ser Kevan had also wed, taking to bride the daughter of Ser Harys Swyft of Cornfield, who had once been given to him as a hostage for her father’s debts. (TWOIAF)

Say Dorna was 11 in 266, while Kevan would have turned 22 that year. It’s certainly not the first marriage where the bride was “half [the groom’s] age” or younger. Compare it to Genna’s marriage, or Tyrek’s, or Tyrion’s. 

“Your sister swears she’s flowered. If so, she is a woman, fit to be wed. You must needs take her maidenhead, so no man can say the marriage was not consummated. After that, if you prefer to wait a year or two before bedding her again, you would be within your rights as her husband.”

I think if we really want to make GRRM’s timeline work, the argument could be made that Kevan wedded and bedded an 11 year old, and then waited a few years before bedding her again. Still, the experience might have severely traumatized Dorna, both mentally and physically, so she may have had extreme difficulty conceiving when she and Kevan started sleeping together with any regularity when she was older.  That might explain why Dorna doesn’t give birth to a living child until 282, when she’s (by my made up birthdates) 27. 

Willem and Martyn were twins, born sometime between 285 and 287, so that might have been another 5 years before Dorna had another successful birth. And then Janei wasn’t born until either 296 or 297 (when Dorna was just about ~41 in this scenario). There may have been many miscarriages and stillbirths, as was the case with Rhaella, who was also a child-bride. 

Kevan loved his chinless lady, flat-chested and chicken-legged as she was. (AFFC)

Dorna was a gentle soul, never comfortable but at home with friends and kin around her. She had done well by their children, dreamed of having grandchildren, prayed seven times a day, loved needlework and flowers. (ADWD)

I don’t imagine Dorna was in love with Kevan in 266, but she (hopefully) grew to love Kevan eventually, as Daenerys grew to love Drogo. (I hold with the idea that Daenerys basically had Stockholm Syndrome toward Drogo, and that Dany/Drogo is a terrible relationship, but if you asked Dany, she would say she loved Drogo. I imagine Dorna feels the same toward Kevan.)

However, GRRM is not very good with making pre-series timelines match up (ie Barristan’s timeline of tourneys is impossible and GRRM has admitted as much and there was a 2 year error in the Westerlands timeline in TWOIAF), so you might not want to think about ASOIAF timelines too hard.

[joannalannister]

Have you ever seen some good gifs or good fanart (or any gifs fanart at all) of The Crag, seat of House Westerling?

YOU HAVE COME TO THE RIGHT PLACE, FRIEND, BECAUSE THE WESTERLANDS IS MY PURPOSE IN LIFE

I don’t have very many things to offer representing The Crag (which is an ABSOLUTE SHAME, a decaying castle by the sea, rising above the waves, I took her castle and she took my heart, “It is the half destroyed […] that oftentimes holds the most sway over our existences”, ASOIAF’S PERSISTENT THEME OF LIFE AMIDST THE RUINS, COME ON PEOPLE)

This is everything I know of: 1, 2, 3, 4

AND I KNOW YOU DIDN’T ASK FOR IT BUT HERE, HAVE THIS ART OF ROBB/JEYNE AT THE CRAG BY marthajefferson BECAUSE IT IS EVERYTHING

[nobodysuspectsthebutterfly]

I don't get how Wylla (long-time House Dayne servant mentioned by King Robert Baratheon to Ned in AGOT and Lord Edric Dayne to Arya in ASOS) fits into R+L=J? I get that Ashara Dayne is just speculation by characters with no direct knowledge, but Wylla seems more involved in the cover-up. Wylla's in on R+L=J or not so much?

See this post. See also my Wylla tag, which covers that question and many more. Hope that helps!