#undertale observation

[hometownvibing]

How far does the Flowerners' connection to the Undertale's fallen humans go? Examples of this trope from a few other stories!

I think Sans pretty much confirms that the universes of Undertale and Deltarune are connected and some characters could even "migrate" from one to the other, and I believe this is what happened with the six human SOULs that UT Asgore claimed. The opened six coffins at the ending always implied some sort of ambiguity and an open end for what happened with the SOULs and it seems that Deltarune verse became their rebirth.

Flowerners have the same bullet patterns as the six fallen Human children, the same accessories and the same hobbies but yet are their own people! They do not have the same ages or even ages consistent to the order of their falling; three adults, one teenager and two children. They have very varied forms; Orange is a mouse, Blue seems to be part-butterfly and Aqua has monstrous eyes. They reference more than just the fallen humans, like how Aqua is also a bit of a Jevil and a bit of a Kris!

I think everything points out towards the fact that Undertale's fallen humans would not be just the copies of the Flowerners but all children and with human looks and colors! They carry the 'spiritual memory' of the SOULs of the humans, "genetically", but became their own people. Which would be consistent with how Toby cherishes creativity of his fans and would not crash a decade of headcanons and interpretations... but also with how Toby is a weeb and this type of birth with extremely heavy and informative "soul baggage" is a VERY Japanese trope. x)

Probably THE most popular example of this trope is from Steven Universe which, although not a Japanese media, but took very heavy inspirations from the anime. Steven is reborn from Rose's gemstone which was HER 'SOUL', her very being! However, he is neither just her reincarnation neither he is simply a child born with mother not surviving the process.

Steven is his own being, with his own personality, his own form, his own aspirations, heck with his own gender and yet he carries on a lot of traits from Rose's gemstone as a result of it also supporting his form. He carries her healing magic, he has the access to the same pocket dimension, he carries her light weapon, his fusions are same gems as what a rose quartz would give, he sometimes dreams of her memories. Does it sound very similar to what likely happened with the Flowerners?

I want to use other two examples I am very closely familiar with myself, this time from Japanese videogames; Bloodborne and Elden Ring: Nightreign! Both The Doll and Revenant, funny enough for the discussion, have their appearances actually modelled after people in the setting they are connected with; one is a Victorian mourning doll and another is... a peculiar customary gift to the house's noble lady that is a bit of a lore tangent I won't get into.

The Doll, for one, simply perceives her existence, personality and purpose as the doll, speaking of why the dolls including her are created and what they are supposed to do. There is certain "artificial" behaviour and lack of wishes and traits characteristic for humans. She is rather different from Lady Maria that her looks is based off of, however? She has Maria's voice, she has Maria's grudges, she feels same joy as Maria once have holding Maria's hair ornament, she has a strong particularity to Maria's own grave and she even can sleep and have dreams about somewhere Maria is yet!

All in all, everything points towards the fact that it is Maria's own spirit that animated The Doll. The Doll is not just Maria herself but with a bad amnesia, she is her own person... And yet, she carries a lot of Maria's spiritual baggage, simply due to being the creation of the same soul source!

Revenant is a very similar example, or even a homage as her game is the later one from the series. She became a living being on the night the family of Northerncroft, and particularly her owner Chloe, were murdered. However, for some time, she was experiencing severe disassociation remembering being Chloe herself, but soon realised her previous "life" and feelings as a doll.

Chloe's spirit herself was what animated this doll, but rather than Revenant being just her reborn she inherited some of her traits like the magic spells Chloe used to know, her sentimentality to the memo or her love for the other family members and the servants of the family. Coming to life as her own person she yet shows the traits that travelled to her being from the very reason she is alive now.

So, again: these examples all sound VERY familiar, right?

Basically... all versions of the Fallen Humans from Undertale are still valid because Flowerners are simply not "just them but with fancy colors". They somehow inherited the essence of their SOULs with corresponding traits but are their own people! The only thing we did undeniably get about Undertale's possible designs is that races and genders ARE a thing for the human kind in UTDR which used to be a debate for many years and that's it! If anything, it just helps creating more varied cast!

It feels very bittersweet, there is the familiarity that is "teasing" you with the people you used to know or wish you got to know but they did not simply return from the death. Those six Human SOULs are akin to Rose's gemstone, powering up a new person with just the hints of her own lost life slipping in.

The other bittersweet part of it is that Deltarune Asgore unwittingly caring of what became from the SOULs of the Humans he murdered in the Undertale universe feels like a strange "atonement". In Undertale Asgore took away the six humans' chances to live longer lives and get to grow up, and yet here in Deltarune he spent 20-ish years nurturing the flowers that were only meant to live for a single day. It is already heart-rending to think of how different the same person can act and the only line between the man that takes away all chances vs the man that gives second chance where it wasn't meant to be is the grief and the terrible pain that it brings.

[spadenade]

🤔

[ninjastarsultimate]

The reason mettaton cares so much about his legs is because he never had them when he was a ghost. So of course he is going to be infactuated with them. Not to mention he loves dancing and twirling his legs around too. Legs were the one part of him he always wanted. Thanks for coming to my ted talk about mettaton and his legs-

[hometownvibing]

Four times it was hinted that Red SOUL trait is an anomaly in some way:

The first time traces all the way back to Undertale, actually, when the Ball Game already set the Red trait as something not only nameless, but also both "above" and aside of the other known six:

Second time was ever since Deltarune first dropped, as we've seen the seven golden flowers only six of which were colored with the SOUL colors and the color Red was missing:

Now we of course know the context for why that is: the Flowerners are connected with the Fallen Humans in Undertale in one way or another but since Chara's SOUL was lost and Frisk lived, getting the Red Human SOUL was never an option here! But with how many layers and subtexts Toby puts at once in the same thing this still fits the pattern nonetheless.

But Chapter 5 provided even more evidence for this! Two of them, in fact!

I do not even necessarily use the flashback scene color-coding to conclude that Patience is Kris' SOUL trait underneath? For example, Toriel is simply color-coded here, without attachment to any concrete SOUL trait!

What does point towards Kris' trait being Patience though is... just their personality, I suppose? It would simply work considering what they are like. But there is a second interesting case that is similar:

Aqua's ribbon is shaped as a heart and we practically see her symbolise recolouring the green heart into red! I could only think of Frisk as potentially referenced character here as Kindness does seem like their more prominent trait! Their true personality during the playing Undertale is defined as all the kindest, pacifist choices you can make!

On the other hand it could be more generic representation of the idea of the color underneath the Red, without attaching it to Kris or Frisk! After all, ALL Flowerners show similarities with Kris, not only Aqua ( x )!

However if I was to choose "true" trait beneath the Red for Chara I'd pick Integrity. Justice doesn't fully apply to them as they are driven by vengeance that is directionless and wished to skew favour in Monsters' favour instead of restoring the balance and Bravery doesn't fully encapsulate their depth and nuance! Meanwhile, they are sure true to their own moral principles to the very end, however skewed, and they are wholeheartedly devoted to the people they've chosen. Funny enough: Aqua did mention that she wanted to be Blue too! If all these snippets do mean anything there is a reference to all three known humans of the Red SOUL!

It makes sense that Red trait stands aside as so far it is the only one proven to be connected with the "divine guidance", ie basically perceiving ours, the Player's, will and working around with it. It also seems that Red trait has the highest amount of Determination in general and sometimes goes hand-in-hand with its golden color. A little strange that it is the part of the full rainbow spectrum chosen to represent the outside element... Would not pink, a literal nonexistent color, pass this theme better?

[hometownvibing]

Ralsei's horns mystery might be a hidden lore?

I wanted to check merch and Temmie's art for the fairness' sake and it seems like shrinking Ralsei's horns too much for anyone to be sure in those is a common trend? Temmie's art that depicts Ralsei with tall inwards-pointed horns are also the sketches for battle sprite animations, so it makes sense the pattern is broken for them!

However, if ONLY in-game sprites are considered, it leaves even less room for the doubt to me! The character that narrates the game is present in both Undertale and Deltarune, so, think of it this way: hatless dialogue sprite is seen not objectively, but through the eyes of someone who has a bias to compare him with Asriel! Do they want Ralsei to be Asriel? Are they just reminded of Asriel by Ralsei? Who knows!

In any case, now my headcanon is that Ralsei's horns point inward and Asriel's horns point outward until otherwise is specified!

[hometownvibing]

Have Chara and Asriel actually ever saw each other as siblings?

Despite the Monsters reporting that the two became "just like siblings", for some reason the Dreemurs refuse to address Chara as one of their children?

I am still perplexed, because Toriel and Asgore of all people don't seem like they'd hold resentment towards Chara for what happened; their knowledge was limited to it being just a horrible accident. And not only they do speak of Chara fondly despite never addressing them as a second child, but Toriel still takes care of their grave, too!

It kinda just feels like they instead honor Chara's wishes to not be treated as "legit" part of the family, but for what reason? Was it just self-hatred? Distrust of the family dynamic due to their past that they needed time to process? Or they were protective of some other feelings and thus set a boundary like this?

And some other stuff directly addressing Asriel's feelings for Chara:

+ Also a bonus by Toby addressing that one "burn" by Asriel that seems like Toby resents the effect it had on how the two were perceived:

(Same energy as him having multiple evidences of Spade King being misguided, sympathetic and nuanced spelled out on screen past Chapter 1 hahaha! He sees your takes, guys! He wants his characters sympathetic!)

I am not sure of what to make from it? It seems like the adopted siblings dynamic never formed between Chara and Asriel and only outsiders to the family thought otherwise? Same for adopted child dynamic never getting called it despite Toriel and Asgore clearly grieving Chara too. But there are also multiple reasons for why that'd be?

Something Toby did during the stream was also dodge the question regarding the "children" said by Gerson that was asked by one of the three people on stream with him. Context clues seem to imply they just wanted to make a joke, but Toby was weirdly intent on NOT addressing it which was unlike his usual behaviour on a stream. Maybe Toby himself didn't even know what he specifically wanted the two to be to each other, just the very fact that nobody matted for Asriel more than Chara. Like, to the point where even without SOUL they were still the only one whom he felt emotions for when even his parents he remained apathetic for

What do YOU think relationship between Asriel and Chara was? (regardless of whether it was realised before or after the tragedy)

Best friends

Would-be adopted siblings if Chara healed from whatever haunted them sooner

Adopted siblings

It was love (Charasriel real?)

One-sided love, from Asriel

One-sided love, from Chara

Somehow it is just everything at once. It is very complicated

My opinion depends on how Asriel and Dess go in Deltarune

One-sided sense/wish of friendship, from Asriel

Toriel is BALD in Undertale universe / Nuance / Results

Voting ended onApr 7

[spadenade]

The Lost Soul segment of the True Pacifist ending is something I think about often. Like it feels layered with meaning. So anyways i was thinking about that segment when i went

“Huh. The white blocks on their face kinda remind me of the Forgotten Man tree and the ‘but what if it could get darker than dark’ chair. Huh, ‘Lost Soul’ as a phrase kinda reminds me of ‘Lost Girl.’ Weird.”

Probably doesn’t mean anything, it’s just an interesting observation.