#unfathomable-mortal

[hollowed-theory-hall]

Hi, do you think that Harry's personality was altered to fit with Ginny's in HBP? I can put my money on the fact that the Harry Potter from OotP would not put up with any of Ginny's bullshit. He wouldn't even talk to her if he could help it let alone date her.

If jkr wasn't on her trojan horse to make hinny endgame, Harry probably would not date anybody in sixth year. Not with Sirius's death, voldemort's horcruxes, his disastrous relationship (really, it's a stretch) with Cho the previous year and his new found obsession with Malfoy. His brain could only hold so much.

Hi, like, Harry's personality definitely changed in HBP, but I don't think Ginny was the only reason (Ginny's personality also changed from OotP, for the worse if you ask me). Harry's personality change between OotP and HBP isn't all that bad. Last time I read the book, a lot of it can be explained by his trauma response (his sass and even less self-preservation than before).

What is a little odd about HBP Harry is that he is way calmer than OotP Harry and tries harder not to annoy Ginny, even early in the book, before he supposedly realises his crush. Which is in stark contrast to Harry with anybody else and in any other book. Harry isn't scared of calling out people for bad behaviour, even people he likes (Lupin, Ron, Hermione, etc.), and who is outright rude to Ginny late in OotP. Basically, the transitions in Harry's opinions and behaviour towards Ginny didn't change naturally and go against how he usually reacts to people. Because you're right that OotP Harry would not try to appease Ginny when she gets all worked up over Fluer, he wouldn't care what she thought, and we don't see the summer between OotP and HBP when he supposedly changed his whole treatment of Ginny — which is a problem.

As for whether he'd date at all after Sirius' death... it can go both ways. I actually think it's very possible Harry throws himself into a relationship with Ginny — who he sees as a normal and safe dating option, she represents normal teenage life, and not being the Boy Who Lived — because of his trauma and Sirius' death and everything going on with Voldemort.

I mean, we are told pretty explicitly he sees his time with Ginny as a break of normalcy from his eventful life. It's a distraction and a coping mechanism:

“It’s been like . . . like something out of someone else’s life, these last few weeks with you,” said Harry. “But I can’t . . . we can’t . . . I’ve got things to do alone now.”

(HBP, Ch30)

So, I don't think that's inherently out of character, actually. What is, is Harry thinking he loves Ginny as much as he does, without knowing her and being chill with a lot of her behaviour he would have called her out for before:

“She’s a damn sight nicer than Phlegm,’’ said Ginny “And she’s more intelligent, she’s an Auror!” said Hermione from the corner. “Fleur’s not stupid, she was good enough to enter the Triwizard Tournament,” said Harry. “Not you as well!” said Hermione bitterly. “I suppose you like the way Phlegm says ‘ ’Arry,’ do you?” asked Ginny scornfully. “No,” said Harry, wishing he hadn’t spoken, “I was just saying, Phlegm — I mean, Fleur —” [...] “I wouldn’t go in the kitchen just now,” she warned him. “There’s a lot of Phlegm around.” “I’ll be careful not to slip in it.” Harry smiled

(HBP, Ch5)

First, Hermione and Ginny should lay off Fleur. Second, how come Harry finds Ginny's comments about Fleur funny after he just spoke in Fleur's defence? Why is he regretting having talked? He doesn't regret it when he speaks up to defend people he cares about or to say what people need to hear when it's the truth, even in HBP and DH. Ginny is the only exception, and we don't see what made her that exception in the books. Especially when Harry repeatedly shows he cares for Ron and Hermione more than her.

“And Ginny, don’t call Ron a prat, you’re not the Captain of this team —” “Well, you seemed too busy to call him a prat and I thought someone should —” Harry forced himself not to laugh.

(HBP, Ch14)

You're telling me Harry would find this behaviour funny, JKR? He would if he didn't like Ron, sure, but Ron is one of his most important people, more important to him than Ginny (as proven time and time again in DH), and he knows Ron's insecure enough as is. Harry would not stand for the Ron slander, even if it's from his sister.

Harry looked over at Ron, who was hunched in a corner, staring at his knees, a bottle of butterbeer clutched in his hand. “Angelina still won’t let him resign,” Ginny said, as though reading Harry’s mind. “She says she knows he’s got it in him.” Harry liked Angelina for the faith she was showing in Ron, but at the same time thought it would really be kinder to let him leave the team.

(OotP, Ch26) - Harry likes when people show faith in Ron's abilities! Wild that he's a good friend!

For context, Harry to Ginny in OotP when he's stressed over Sirius and annoyed with her:

“Hi,” said Ginny uncertainly. “We recognized Harry’s voice — what are you yelling about?” “Never you mind,” said Harry roughly. Ginny raised her eyebrows. “There’s no need to take that tone with me,” she said coolly. “I was only wondering whether I could help.” “Well, you can’t,” said Harry shortly.

(OotP, Ch32)

But I wouldn't say Harry won't talk to her if he could help it. He likes Ginny in OotP but not more than Fred and George. He finds some of her comments amusing and thinks she's alright. He doesn't hate her, far from it — but he doesn't see her as a romantic interest, he sees her as Ron's little sister. He's actively surprised she has any interest or talent in Quidditch and finds it unlikely. OotP Harry doesn't think very highly of Ginny, nor is he super interested in her as a person:

“You and Fred and George,” she said impatiently. “We’ve got an- other Seeker!” “Who?” said Harry quickly. “Ginny Weasley,” said Katie. Harry gaped at her. “Yeah, I know,” said Angelina, pulling out her wand and flexing her arm. “But she’s pretty good, actually. Nothing on you, of course,” she said, throwing him a very dirty look

(OotP, Ch21)

“Well, that was a bit stupid of you,” said Ginny angrily, “seeing as you don’t know anyone but me who’s been possessed by You-Know-Who, and I can tell you how it feels.” Harry remained quite still as the impact of these words hit him. Then he turned on the spot to face her. “I forgot,” he said. “Lucky you,” said Ginny coolly. “I’m sorry,” Harry said, and he meant it. “So . . . so do you think I’m being possessed, then?”

(OotP, Ch23)

And even the "best" hinny scene in OotP in the library (in quotations because that scene is really weird), Harry isn't really telling Ginny what's bothering him. He tells her he wants to talk to Sirius, but not why (Which is his doubts about James and what he saw in Snape's worst memory. He doesn't tell Ron and Hermione about it either, but it is an example of him not being more open with her than with Ron and Hermione. He isn't).

It's not all out of character in HBP, and Harry could get to a point where he treats Ginny and her comments the way he does, there's just nothing that happens in the books that justifies it — hence why it's so jarring. We didn't see Harry's emotions evolve to this point; they just sorta appear, and are really weird when they are there (god, I hate the chest monster).

[divorcedwife]

why divorcedwife? any specific reason? are you actually divorced?

not divorced for real & probably never will be because i would not get married, i don't like oaths and vows... not really any specific reason or meaning, i just wanted a shorter url than i had before and i just thought of one. but i am a product of divorce in a way, since my parents were both married to other people before they met, so maybe that counts

[hollowed-theory-hall]

Hi, I'm curious about why you think that voldemort wanted to recruit lily potter as a death eater. Is it because the prophecy said "thrice defied him"? (defy also means escape, defeat, challenge, disobey etc. but i dont think it means deny) I don't get why someone would try to recruit a muggleborn to commit a genocide against other muggleborns and muggles. Like, nobody asked hermione to join in the 2nd war. And how would the other pureblooded death eaters react to that? wouldn't voldemort lose a little bit credibility with that? Make it make sense?

Hi 👋

First of all, "defy" can 100% mean they chose not to join the Death Eaters:

As they resisted/disregarded Voldemort's offer, I think this is a valid usage of the word.

Second, this idea came from this JKR interview:

MA: What about the three times-- The thrice-defying of Voldemort? JKR: Of James and Lily? MA: Of Neville's parents. Well, James and Lily, too. JKR: It depends how you take defying, doesn't it. I mean, if you're counting, which I do, anytime you arrested one of his henchmen, anytime you escaped him, anytime you thwarted him, that's what he's looking for. And both couples qualified because they were both fighting. Also, James and Lily turned him down, that was established in "Philosopher's Stone". He wanted them, and they wouldn't come over, so that's one strike against them before they were even out of their teens.

(Source)

Now, I tried to find the PS quote JKR referenced, and this is what I could find:

“Now, yer mum an’ dad were as good a witch an’ wizard as I ever knew. Head boy an’ girl at Hogwarts in their day! Suppose the myst’ry is why You- Know-Who never tried to get ‘em on his side before…probably knew they were too close ter Dumbledore ter want anythin’ ter do with the Dark Side. “Maybe he thought he could persuade ‘em…maybe he just wanted ‘em outta the way. All anyone knows is, he turned up in the village where you was all living, on Halloween ten years ago. You was just a year old. He came ter yer house an’ — an’ —”

(PS, Ch4)

So, we know Hagrid didn't know of any recruitment attempt, if it happened, or why Voldemort went to Godric's Hollow. And it's another case of JKR not remembering what she wrote in post-book interviews, and another thing she didn't really think through.

Because Hagrid really doesn't know much, his statment isn't all that relaiable, and even then, he suggests Voldemort would've wanted to recruit Lily if he thought he could, so really — it's up to personal headcanon and wheather you take JKR's word of god on the matter as canon or not.

All the "thrice defying" has a lot of space for headcanon and speculation to come in since JKR didn't really think it through. Personally, I am not a fan of the idea that "every arrest of a DE" counts as "defy", but I'm not opposed to the idea that Voldemort offered James and Lily to join him as teens (when they were still at school, probably).

What's important to note for further speculation is that Voldemort doesn't really believe in blood purity.

He's a half-blood, and he thinks he's better than all his followers. Voldemort repeatedly shows he doesn't actually care about implementing anti-Muggleborn laws, his followers are invested in no, is he interested in ruling at all (a. He wasn't in the UK when the ministry fell. b. He remained so unpresent that Umbridge could walk around with his Horcrux and claim it as her own family heirloom without dying. c. Lupin implies all the muggleborn registration laws from DH weren't around the first time, again, Voldemort isn't there, these are laws his followers made. He, personaly, doesn't give a shit and doesn't care if muggleorns, muggles, purebloods or whoever lives or dies. It doesn't concern him in the slightest. He actually personally kills more purebloods than muggleborns). If he found a muggleborn talented and powerful enough to be worth his time, he wouldn't mind that he's/she's a muggleborn. Voldemort cares first and foremost about power:

There is no good and evil, there is only power, and those too weak to seek it…

(PS, Ch17)

If you have power, anything else doesn't really matter. And even power is optional if you're useful to him in some other way. Talking about PS, Quirrell was a weak wizard and the Muggle Studies Professor — but he was useful, and in the right place at the right time, so Voldemort recruited him.

Hagrid clearly believes in PS Voldemort would recruit muggleborns, and JKR mentioned it in other interviews, so she is pretty consistent about that:

‘Snape’s ancestry is hinted at. He was a Death Eater, so clearly he is no Muggle-born, because Muggle-borns are not allowed to be Death Eaters, except in rare circumstances.’

(Edinburgh Book Festival, 15 August 2004)

By the time he would be potentially recruiting super-talented muggleborns, he would have a lot of control over his followers. We see he has no problem torturing and punishing them, and from how Karkaroff and other DE respond to Voldemort in GoF, it's clear his treatment of them we see is nothing new.

So, if Voldemort says the muggleborn stays, some DE are definitely going to feel various ways about it — but none of them are going to question him, that would be suicide. It would cause some unrest, but the likes of Lucius Malfoy would shut up out of self-preservation, and the likes of Bellatrix Lestrange would justify Voldemort's behaviour in their head somehow.

So, I don't see that part as contradictory at all, actually.

And I don't think Hermione is a good analog here. Hermione is known to be good friends with Harry Potter, and she has done nothing to attract Voldemort’s attention besides being around Harry — Lily, as a young witch, probably didn't do anything noteworthy either, but my headcanon is that Snape vouched for her.

We know Voldemort recruited as young as 16-year-olds:

and when he was sixteen years old, Master Regulus joined the Dark Lord. So proud, so proud, so happy to serve . . .

(DH, Ch10)

So, it's possible, and likely, Snape and Mulciber, and others were already getting involved with Voldemort in their 5th year. By SWM (end of the Mauraders' 5th year), Snape would've already been 16 (born January 9th, 1960), and possibly already a Death Eater officially, or about to become one that summer. Lily's talents might have been vouched for by him, the fact that she was part of the Slug Club, which Voldemort would be familiar with, will be another mark on her talent.

(James is easier to explain why he would be a potential recruit as a rich pureblood who likes hexing people)

So, I can see it working, though I don't think it's super likely. But I like the idea that the first time James and Lily defied Voldemort was each on their own separately, before they were a couple — I don't know, I just like that as a concept. That they defied him on their own and not just together.