Waxin' Philosophical on Peyton: Windbag Edition
So we noticed something weird today. Even though the Colts have essentially cut ties with Peyton Manning, and the Redskins are in dire need of a competent QB, no one has been writing anything about the very real possibility of the Skins signing Peyton this offseason.
On Tuesday*, we decided to boldly go where no blogger has gone before and had us a good ol' fashioned word-hagglin' about Peyton to the Skins:
Danny Lightfoot:
I don't understand the downside of having Peyton Manning. If he's healthy, there's no downside. He's a free agent so the Skins can still draft a QB of the future. The other option is Kyle Orton. Someone has to play quarterback. If we pay Peyton $28 million a year, that would be stupid but there is a Peyton scenario that makes sense.
Rich Tanguy:
It's stupid because if we get him we are not drafting up (i.e. no RG3 for the future), the offense will have to adjust for him (again), we are paying a significant amount to a QB (he is not playing here for less than $15 million), when we have other positions that we need to pay players. I would much rather have Orton as a cheaper stopgap that is not going to completely change our offense and bring someone along then. Putting 10% of our cap into a QB that maybe will get us to the playoffs is not worth it for a team that is supposed to be rebuilding.
And ALL of that hinges on Peyton being healthy. Manning at 80% could be freaking terrible. He's a year older and slower and he has been known to throw some shaky passes even when 100%.
You can still draft up if you really wanted. I wouldn't, but you could.
I'm not sure what the cap situation is, other than we are way under it. We have room to add players. Are you saying $15 million base salary? $15 million with bonuses I feel like can be worked around the cap.
I'm operating under the assumption that Peyton is healthy. When you're talking this kind of money you have to.
I just heard that Kyle Orton will probably get $7-9 million a year. The Redskins aren't winning with Kyle Orton. If you're worried about signing guys, we should just pay a million to Rex and have him lose for us. The reason why Peyton makes sense is that Peyton gives the team the best chance to win, which keeps Mike Shanahan employed. This team has to start winning games. Peyton has a chance to change the entire culture of the team. No other quarterback does that. He will show everyone what it takes to win. The Redskins don't have that on offense. Is Cooley supposed to show these young guys how to work? The reason good teams can plug in guys who can play is because they are in a culture of winning and understand how to win.
Someone has to play quarterback for this team. Why sign losers as a stop gap, when Peyton Manning can be the stop gap? We can draft like Tannehill second round and have him sit for two years. The team has to win games. That's the reality. We're not trading away draft picks for him like with McNabb. If he's healthy there is no downside. Maybe we win some games with him. If we don't, Shanahan is gone. But at least Shanahan has a chance to win, because if we sign Orton or whatever, we'll lose and he will definitely be gone.
There's more at stake here than just a season of Peyton at QB and some cap considerations.
Even Peyton at 90% is still the best QB in Redskins history. The only real problem that arises with bringing Peyton on is the cap hit from his salary, but with Snyder's shady cap guys (like awesome @salarycap101), they always find a way around it. It's not a big enough downside risk given the upside Peyton brings. I guess you can say it means the Skins won't make getting an elite QB in the 2012 draft a priority, but I think that's okay if the stopgap is Peyton because 1) the price for RG3 in future draft picks is higher than the cap implications of Peyton, 2) Taking Tannehill in the 2nd to sit and learn from Peyton could be a great move and 3) assume Peyton and Rex are the QBs and the Skins suck. Then they have a shot at Landry Jones and Barkley next year, after taking a risk on a sure thing hall of famer and not giving up any picks, and in fact hopefully filling some holes with drafted talent around Peyton. That's the worst case scenario. It would suck but that's an acceptable risk in my book.
One more thing on Peyton's salary: this ain't the 2010 rookie wage scale. Cam Newton has a 4 year $22 million deal as the #1 pick. Rookies are cheap now. The Skins need a lot of rookies and up and coming guys and a few key vets. It's okay if some key vets make a ton because rookies cost less by comparison. De Smith must love the Skins.
As far as Peyton's health, make his signing contingent on him passing a physical by a panel of 300 independent doctors and put him through rigorous workouts to prove he is healthy. If he passes those tests to your satisfaction, sign him. It's not like you have to sign him with no information. If that's technically tampering, I say to you sir: when has that ever stopped Snyder before?
I'm not psyched that the Skins are pursuing an aging veteran whose golden years were with another franchise again, but I think the conversation is different when you're talking about someone so talented his retarded kid brother is a two-time Super Bowl MVP.
If Peyton is injured and we give him a long term deal that would be a disaster, but there is a way for it to work out. We need a quarterback who can win and Peyton is the best option. I'm not sold on trading future number ones to get RG3. The other QBs seem like they are far from contributing, so it's RG3 or Peyton. RG3 will have to win without help from the draft too depending on what we give up for him.
I guess the only reasons Peyton doesn't fit 1) He doesn't want to play here, 2) He's injured, 3) The Redskins move up for RG3.
If none of those things happen, I'll be disappointed if we can't sign him.
Peyton's retarded kid brother is on a team with possibly the best defensive line in history of the NFL.
Peyton Manning was born in 1976. Hes 36 years old this year. The redskins WR core is Santana Moss, Jabar Gaffney, and Anthony Armstrong. The offensive line is still being tinkered tailored solidered and spied, the RB could be something pretty good in another year but that's just one aspect of the offense.
I think you are under-estimating what kind of change this is. Its not baseball. You cant just add a sick pitcher at the end of his career. You need to completely change the offense - one that you have been working on for two years now and has been showing signs of life for the first time in 10+ years with REX GROSSMAN at QB. We need to keep rebuilding. Using cap tricks is the same reason why we have NO DEPTH for the past 10 years and one of the reasons we have been so shitty. We sign 10 "good" players that are usually over the hill and end up with 43 Stephon Heyers. The one time its ever worked for the Redskins was London Fletcher. Yes Manning is special like him but the negatives outweigh the positives.
Showing people what it takes to win and "losing culture" is a crock of shit malarkey too. These are supposed to be professional athletes, grown ass men. If you have a bunch of Andray Blaches (or Fred Davises?) on your team, you cut their ass or refuse to re-sign them and bring in people that will work hard. Mike Shanahan knows how to win - hes done it more than Peyton Manning. Hes been rebuilding for the last two years and we have seen on the field how well its worked - we are a MUCH better team than two years ago just watching us out there. Yeah we may not have won as many but its the NFL, the difference between winning and losing is tiny.
Also I don't believe that Shanahan HAS to win now. I think as long as he continues to improve this team, he should get his fair shot. If Snyder fires him after three years and there is an actual improvement in talent and there is direction and a team that is on the right track then Fuck a pox on Dan Snyder for real and I will burn my jerseys once and for all and start over with a new team (hello Panthers and Cam Newton).
We didn't have depth because we traded away draft picks and drafted poorly. It wasn't because we couldn't afford them.
We have Hankerson also. We can sign/ draft a WR. There are a million WRs out there.
I don't understand how signing Peyton Manning means you have to go out and sign a ton over over the hill guys to bad contracts. If you asked me, our needs on offense would be: QB, WR and RT. On defense, we need help in the secondary and resign LFB. If we signed or drafted competent players in those areas, the team isn't that bad. Plug in a good quarterback like Manning, and they could win some games, and still have time to groom a guy to step in to a good team after a couple years.
If there is no losing culture, can you at least admit there is a winning culture? The Ravens have it. The Patriots. The Steelers. The Colts did before Manning went away. You hear ex-Redskins say all the time how terrible the Redskins culture was. It's not a winning one. Having Peyton at least adds to the locker room. He knows how to win and what it takes to win. He has a presence other players will respect.
John Elway was 37 and 38 when he won the Super Bowls with Shanahan. It's not impossible to win games with an old quarterback.
I think Shanahan needs to win more games. If we sign Orton for this year, we need a guy who can step in the next season and be better than Orton. We can't have two losing seasons with Orton at QB. With Manning at least there is a possibility he can start for two years.
I think Peyton is the best option if healthy. He's temporary. He lets you keep draft picks. He gives the team the best chance to win.
Rich, it seems like your argument is that the Skins have more holes to focus on filling than getting a QB, so what is your plan at QB? Rex for another year? Orton and Rex? The Skins aren't getting RG3 for anything but multiple picks, so isn't that a worse strategy than Peyton in free agency?
Also, cap tricks can be covered up if you hit on draft picks every once in a while. Vinny didn't AND they had cap tricks, which made him old mother Hubbard with only Vaughn in the cupboard.
I agree this is a much better team than when Shanahan took over, and to me that's an argument for Peyton being a short term fix. Get a proven QB, draft well again, and hope the offensive line and the WRs stay healthy. You think Pierre Garcon and Austin Colley are more talented than Big Bank Hank and Fred Davis? Let Peyton be the bridge to 2014 when Tannehill or Mike Rocco takes over.
I think there is way more to football than plugging in a sick player. I think that's where we differ in theory. Its the ultimate team/coaching game. You need a good EVERYTHING to win in football. You cant just have one good player or just a good coach. (You could have just a good GM that puts them all into place, but then by definition you'd have a good everything b/c he put them in place. what?). Again, its not like baseball when you can scoop up Roy Halladay at 34 to be your ace for 2 more years, nor is it like Madden when you all of the sudden have a 95 ranked player at the QB position.
I'm not going to admit to a winning culture BS either, unless you count it with the GM/Head Coach (and maybe owner). Those organizations (Ravens, Steelers, Patriots) have had the key guys at the top in place for the last 20,000 years (note: figures are approximate), the Redskins haven't. We're finally building towards that - why not keep building? You want good players and hard workers on your team. We've been drafting idiotic loser athletes for seven years. The Colts have been good basically b/c of Manning, BUT...
My main hang up is that 1) I have no faith that Manning is healthy (and i don't trust whatever doctor Synder has check manning out either) - this includes his age and the fact that he is no where near the athlete that Elway was, 2) Manning is going to cost too much (he was a $16 mil cap hit this year) for a rebuilding team 3) we do not have Reggie Wayne, Dwight Freeney, Robert Mathis, Bob Sanders, or Marvin Harrison from three years ago on this team, nor can we get them in free agency. and 4) we would need to change the system we currently have in place (not that i love the system, but consistency is king in the NFL) if we brought him in. And what happens when we leave and the QB that we were 'grooming' for two years now has to play like Manning but he has no idea how to call audibles like him? Or he's a more accurate mid-range thrower and Manning was throwing deep for two years (not accurate but you get my point). Then we need to retool our system again to fit the QB and we've almost wasted two years b/c there isn't a fit. Everything in football needs to fit to successfully win consistently.
I definitely do not want to throw away a bunch of picks for RG3, and I honestly do not think we'll do it. Shanny is still building. MAYBE that means we can get Manning and he will be healthy and cheap (which would make me feel way better about #2 of my 4 hang ups). But he definitely has to make some kind of move this year because he cant just assume we'll get someone next year because you never know how it will play out*
* that's the exact same argument Barkley and Jones should have come out - isn't this the second time Jones has not gone in and paid for it? you'd think he would have learned the first time. If you are going to be a top 10 pick you take that opportunity, you'll never get that money back. Idiots. Can't they get an Econ101 teacher to talk some sense into them?!
Baseball is a terrible analogy with the plug in stuff. Lets take Prince Fielder. He has a 5 WAR. A team full team of replacement players gets you 49 wins. A team full of losers and Prince is one of the worst teams of all time. You can't just plug in a player in baseball either.
Bringing in Peyton doesn't stop the building of a team. Changing the system would happen but the running scheme would be in place, but what's the point of running a system with a quarterback who can't run it?
I'm assuming Peyton is healthy. I'm not sure if he is. If he's not, we shouldn't touch him.
A good quarterback is huge in the NFL. It's the most important position. Having a healthy Peytom Manning would make everyone better.
Who the hell is Peytom Manning? You are already grasping for guys off the street. Give up on your argument.
I think you're talking about Peytom ManBrady, an unstoppable quarterbacking force who loves the Redskins and wants to sign a 10 year, $73.50 contract to fire rockets for his hometown team
*I was supposed to post this earlier than today, thereby beating the other blogs that are way better than us to the punch, but I, you know, didn't. Sorry fan(s).
