i argued with an incel for longer than i am proud of
transphobic, women-hater 18yr old refuses to accept that people have harder lives than him, who simply cannot get any bitches, because he's unsafe to be around.
i work with an andrew tate enthusiast and today we got into a fairly long (3 hours) "debate". it began with trans rights. the obvious stance being that trans people deserve every opportunity and all the love the world can offer for the simple reason that they exist and are people. his counter was that he is ok with trans people as long as they exist quietly and dont shove it down anyone's throats. I responded with the argument that silence often means death and he reacted with general disbelief as he believes that "people know what trans is so they dont need to keep saying it and promoting it". obviously i asked how anyone promotes that and where the line is drawn between demanding acceptance and respect and actively "grooming" children into becoming trans and he couldn't define it besides making the point that people at pride dont always wear "family friendly outfits" and it shows degeneracy to children.
he made the point that he's ok with gay people but escalated it by saying that trans people have a mental illness and that he just wants to help them and that it shouldn't be encouraged or accepted. i told him my understanding of the science and how hormones and brain shape and some of the other things i've read and heard (having trans/ non-binary friends) and his only rebuttal was that not all people who say they are trans are actually trans and if you held a gun to their head then they'd concede but i made it clear that even if this was true, why should that result in suffering for the people who he WILL believe are trans? he wouldn't concede that it isnt a mental illness and maintains that he only wishes help towards these people but i asked him to define help and if he means conversion therapy, he vaguely agreed although didn't exactly know what that would entail so i informed him that people try this stuff and it often involves the systematic torture and sexual abuse of people and that he cannot possibly believe that this is a good thing to put a "mentally ill" person through and if the experts all say that is isnt an illness and the best "cure" is gender affirming care then thats what they should get.
this derailed into links between being trans and being a pedophile, i dismissed this as statistics just dont show any correlation and this is not a safe comparison to make.
i tried making the comparison to black rights and the history of this movement as its something he claimed to have more knowledge of but seemed to have no idea about the way modern slavery is rooted in the prison system and laws and prosecutions are unfairly pointed towards black people meaning that yes we "abolished slavery" but that was followed by segregation and then red-lining and all modern forms of division faced. this seemed to strike something but as soon as i attempted to bring this back to sexuality and gender and point out that these are all minority groups who face prejudice in different forms than that of 50, 100, 400 years ago but suddenly it back tracked to mental illness.
i tried explaining the stonewall riots and how they were seen as necessary because people were literally dying and it was being encouraged by the systems in place and one of the first people to talk was a black, trans-woman who was booed by others members of the community because some of the white L,G and B were prepared to take their rights in exchange for distance from trans people. throughout the debate he kept bringing up the fact that riots, protests and anything other than silence is just being too loud and makes business owners and the general public angry at whichever group is doing the protest. me telling him about stonewall made him bring this up again and he claimed that if people didnt riot that the general public would be a lot more sympathetic and like them more. i had to explain that gay-bashing is a thing people do and the police encouraged and did their fair share but this was again met with disbelief. the aids crisis history had, similarly, no effect
i asked which methods people are meant to enact change when the laws and systems are built against them and he said "speak to the media" and i asked how they can do that without also addressing children and younger people as he seems to think that this would be inappropriate. he didnt have an answer to this. i asked why young people cant learn about these things and he says it should be left to children to figure out on their own and when i tried to point out how much straight sex is pushed upon kids so not teaching LGBT history and information leaves an unfair divide for letting kids "work it out on their own"
we finally got to the route of the problem when we discovered that he holds the belief that women need god in their life otherwise they are degenerate and unpure and they have no self respect. he pointed out that a woman who sleeps with more than people than is appropriate (he would not define what was too many for it to be inappropriate) no longer has self respect and therefore is a reflection on the man as having no self respect. he stated that if a man is with a woman that has slept with multiple people in an unacceptable time frame then it makes the man look lesser and this is the woman's fault. i asked why he couldn't feel secure in the knowledge that his partner is his and only has interest in him and why he would feel insecure knowing his partner has had other partners but he claimed it isn't insecurity and that it simply comes down to self-respect (he couldn't define the term)
i had to point out that he has never had a relationship and that he is not a woman so cannot define what a woman's self respect is made of and cannot possibly give any kind of relationship advice to me. i pointed out that i have loved and respected my partner for nearly 7 years and that he cannot possibly have more first-hand knowledge about this topic.
he asked me the question "in a relationship, who is the prize?" i said "what?" "the man or the woman, who is the prize in the relationship?" i was dumbfounded and stated clearly "the relationship IS the prize, the two of you together in a relationship" he shook his head and wholeheartedly disagreed. "in a relationship the woman will most often say herself and the man will most often say the woman because men are not valued so she has to have self respect and be god-fearing in order to make him look good" i couldn't find a better response than "the god-fearing woman you've made up is taught to respect and value her man more than herself so instantly your logic falls apart" and he actually agreed with me.
i tried the empathy approach again with some hard hitting facts and among the conversation i pointed out that almost every member of the LGBT community has faced some type of violence, many homeless of a young age are homeless because of their LGBT identity. i also tried making him understand (after he claimed that men ask women out more than women ask men out and i told him thats because women have to be as safe as possible and he didn't believe me) i told him that i can say with 100% certainty that every woman he knows has received some type of sexual harassment. that includes cat-calling, unwanted touch, comments about appearance, more violent things than this. i certainly dont know any women who have not experienced something along these lines and i know its also true that, for everything i see or hear about, there are 10 things i dont see or hear about. i told him all this and there was a slight look of sadness, disbelief and denial but i promised him it is true and to think about every woman he knows, mother, sister, classmates, colleagues, he has to understand how true this is and i told him that this is exactly why he needs to learn more respect and that he, actually, isnt shit until he learns to become a safe person to be around and a person who can handle not being wanted because he adds no value to an already valuable woman.
this person is 18-19 and im a little older and i genuinely feel bad for him because i dont want him going towards a woman and making them feel unsafe and then he has to sit in his head and just will not understand that this is both his fault and the fault of many men around him. i wish i could have grabbed his head and just shook him until he learns to do better