21, they/them, aroace trans lesbian. i'm brazilian-american if it matters (PTBR/ENG ok!)
this blog serves as a place for me to talk about undertale/deltarune and mainly krissociation. my ask box is always open and i will respond to everything in good faith. if you open a conversation in bad faith i will not respond to you so don't even try. if the hate is really really funny, i will probably just post it for lols.
remember we are all deltarune fans under christ (toby fox) so please do not send hate about other people in my ask box. i do not want my page to be a space where harassment or bullying is encouraged.
trigger warnings: i talk about incest, csa, and grooming
An Analysis on Kris and Carol's Incestuous Relationship
I originally posted this on Twitter, but I left twitter due to the Deltarune fandom on there being horribly rancid towards any sort of indication that Carol is grooming Kris, or any indication that Kris is an incest victim. Im cross posting it here for that reason.
DISCLAIMER: I refer to this relationship as incestuous because Carol is a family figure in Kris's life, one who they've known since they were young. Incest is about family dynamics and control, despite Carol not being blood related to Kris, she still has a familial power over them. They are both given family roles that are expected to be held up, which Carol breaks. This would be considered Quasi-Incest. I do not see Carol as purely evil for this, as I don't think any UTDR characters can be chalked up to "pure evil". Carol is an interesting character that we know little about, and this is my interpretation of her.
Now for the actual analysis.
Your first impression of a character is everything, and Carol's first impression tells us a lot about her relationship with Kris. Queen parallels Carol in Chapter 2 and it tells us that Carol was always harsh, but got worse at a point, likely due to Dess's disappearance.
Rudy mentions that Carol is "tough" on Noelle, but when we actually meet her in Chapter 4, it's quite obvious that Carol is more than "tough". Noelle is frightened knowing that her mom has come home and prepares for what Carol will say when she sees Susie with the guitar.
Carol doesn't give her a chance to defend herself even though Dess is Noelle's sister, so Noelle should get to have a say in who touches Dess's things. Carol dismisses Noelle and also Noelle's fear. Noelle hurriedly tries to defend Susie to no avail.
This is when we see the first glimpse of Kris and Carol's relationship. It's a very brief moment, and to most people it doesn't cross their mind that Carol has some sort of control over Kris. Kris stops themselves from leaving once they hear Carol's footsteps. Once Carol puts her hand on Kris's shoulder, we get this line: (You felt something like ice on your shoulder...). It refers to Carol's icy personality, but to me it also refers to Kris's fear. They're uncomfortable and Carol is too close for comfort.
That's when we get this, which places a lot of emphasis on her relation to Kris. Sure, she's talking about how Kris used to go over as a kid and they're a family friend. She's apologizing because Kris saw how she treated Noelle, which tells me she knows it's wrong to some extent.
Something important to note about this is how YOU is in red. I've seen people say that she's referring to the SOUL, but the truth is she's referring to Kris. We see this red text in other places, where it's referring to an action taken explicitly by Kris. These are 2 examples of the bright red text referring to Kris. Not only is it referring to Kris, but they're clearly taking a certain meaning from it. (Thank you to my mutual @/alicelufenia for pointing this out.)
This line would be innocent for the most part if it weren't for the context. Carol's talk sprite during these two lines is very important. They are extremely different from her talk sprites with the encounter with Susie. Which you would say is obvious because she was mad at Susie and Noelle, but her talk sprite is still angry when referring to Asgore. When she talks to Kris, it changes to something menacing and sinister. She's smiling, her eyes are wider, she's clearly putting up some sort of facade to look poised in front of Kris. And then, when she tells them they're always welcome, it changes to a smirk. Maybe to some this doesn't mean anything, but to me, as an artist, it means everything.
Again, this is our first impression of Carol. The art and the dialogue is going to be specific. Why would she smirk, of all things, when telling Kris that? It doesn't ring any bells? It doesn't seem to have implications? It does to me, which brings me to my next point. Noelle says this about the red pillows around the house: "My mom just loves red heart-shaped objects?". I'm a Krissociation believer, so this might have a different meaning to those who don't believe in it, but I think we can all agree that this is obviously referring to Kris. It's read like a joke, but it tells us everything we need to know about Carol's relationship with Kris. She loves red heart-shaped objects? Something that Kris has? A human SOUL? Kris's SOUL? It feels like it's screaming in our face.
Noelle also mentions that Kris would take these heart pillows and prank Noelle with them, which again, is linking the pillows to Kris, and also tells us that Carol has had these for a while. We see these pillows in another part of the house, in Dess's closet. A lot of them. I have my theories on why Dess has these, but I overall believe it's referring to Dess protecting Kris in a way. When Dess was around, Carol didn't hurt them. But now that she's gone, they're in the closet instead of being displayed in the house, and Carol is displaying her own throughout the house. This is why I think Carol started abusing Kris after Dess's disappearance. Carol has always been fascinated with Kris's human SOUL. Now that Dess is gone, there's no one to protect them.
Going back to what I said about the dialogue in Chapter 2, it tells us that Carol got worse at a point. We can also see Kris and Carol's relationship through Queen. This is one of the things about Queen and Kris that stuck out the most to me. It tells us that Kris doesn't go against Carol. They don't tell her no, they don't scream, they fawn into her abuse. Which is shown in Kris's prior relationship with Susie.
Susie was Kris's bully, a very severe one at that (Shown through Noelle's blog entry), and we see that Kris took it all. They never told her to stop, they laughed at her and took her abuse. In the fandom the general idea is that Kris liked it, or they believed they deserved it. But doesn't it seem like a pattern? They never say no, they take all forms of treatment. They fawn into everyone's behaviors. I think Kris took Susie's bullying because they were already being abused by Carol, and the trauma made them believe they deserved it.
Kris’s character revolves around a loss of self control. Susie tells Kris in Chapter 1 “Your choices don’t matter” and they’re reminded of this throughout the whole game. They’re used to not having control, they’re used to not having a choice. They have manifestations of guilt throughout the whole game, which I don’t think I need to show, but something very damning to me is this dialogue. They obsessively wash their hands, even Rudy points it out.
They don’t want to be dirty, they don’t want to be ruined, but they feel like it will never go away no matter how many times they clean themselves. This feels like one of the most glaringly obvious metaphors of CSA you can put in a game. Kris, who stopped going to Noelle’s house after Dess’s disappearance, has much more complicated implications than just growing distant. They stopped going because of her, because they’re haunted, and they’re not safe anymore. And Carol doesn’t make it safe. Kris, who has Carol’s number, evidenced by Carol calling them at the end of the Weird Route, may not be weird to people, but it’s weird to me because of all the other evidence. To a lot of fans, these pieces of evidence are relating to Kris's guilt and shame, but I think two things can be true at once. They can be referring to Kris feeling guilty (about Dess, most likely) and be referring to CSA of some kind.
That's all I have to say about this. Anyone, feel free to add on. There might be stuff I've missed or glossed over. Thank you for reading!
Wonderful post Op! Glad to see someone else talk about the worrying implications of Kris and Carol.
Allow me to just add my own thoughts to your post.
Carol is objectively someone who is Criminal Exploiting a teenager. This is a known fact about Carol because she is forcing Kris into illegal activities like low government conspiracy.
And unfortunately as my above text stated grooming is part of one of the ways victims get into these kind of situations.
Something we should immediately keep in mind is why would someone groom someone.
It is something that is done to erode away potential boundaries. Something Carol is explicitly shown. Kris is visibly uncomfortable by her touch but she doesn't remove her hand because she is trying "to be familiar with them." And erode away certain physical boundaries that make them uncomfortable.
She seemingly apologizes but doesn't mean to. She doesn't care about Kris's comfort or even their boundaries instead she's trying to make them comfortable to HER behaviour. She's effectively grooming them into getting used to her mistreatment something that is very much implied in the text.
Something else to keep in mind is when it comes to grooming is family members relationship with the victim's groomer. Often times in familiar relationships groomers are not your typical openly cold people but rather very "nice" people who are turned out to be horrible.
This obviously plays into the manipulative aspect of Carol where Asgore none the wiser considers her kind when in reality she is anything but that.
And that's important to know because of Kris's role in holiday family.
They are considered strong.
It seems like Kris was seemingly bigger than Noelle ok their childhood and because Kris has always been more of the prankster character they were seen as the stronger one because Noelle was always afraid of everything hence in the weird route her need to be stronger because she doesn't feel strong not only because she was told she was weak her entire life but also because there is clear emphasis that she was the weak one to be protected and Kris the strong one to either left alone or someone incharge to protect Noelle specifically.
This is important.
Because Rudy to some extent not only pushes Kris into the protector role for Noelle.
But actively pushes them against Carol.
And this makes complete sense for his character.
Rudy is deeply effective and to some extent is afraid of his wife's actions but we know from chapter 4 that Kris does get normal calls from Carol so it's very understandable that a lot of bystanders to groom victim Rudy was just completely unaware of the situation and thought Kris and Carol were just really really close and considering that Kris was always considered the stronger one out of them and Noelle it makes sense why Rudy would think that they would seemingly get along.
However i haven't seen any discussion of why he might be the last.
He was pushing Kris on Carol.
Whether intentionally or not. Rudy does push Kris to be around Carol. We see back in hospital that he has no problem just sending this teen to his wife who is he clearly worried about hurting his daughter which only adds to Kris's situation as there is no other person to protect them.
Like a lot of groom victims Kris is not only isolated by Carol but their bystanders (Rudy) do not see anything because they are so stuck in their relationship bonds to notice the clear red flags. Kris has effectively no one to protect them as it's clear that Rudy to some extent pushes Kris on Carol in order to spare Noelle from her mother's possible abuse because they think they are strong because that's what they were in their childhood.
And it is this strong mentality that is hanging over both Kris's and Noelle's relationship.
Being strong is one of the most common ways to get abused by someone. As it familiarises all the abuse and makes it seem natural. The reason Carol can get away with so much is because Rudy the only adult other around does not care enough to protect a teenager that he considers strong enough to take it. To take all the abuse happening to them. Which is exactly how grooming and abuse happens between family members as family members don't check exactly what is happening as they have a certain level of trust with the groomer and in Kris's case in Kris's own ability to take it.
Now i should clarify i don't think Rudy is aware of the grooming however i do at the very least think that Rudy doesn't push Kris on Carol because to him their relationship to some extent feels normal or he thinks they are close.
Anyway sorry for bringing up Rudy a lot in your awesome Carol post the reason I did it because i think it's very important for us to discuss the possible reaction the bystander adults have to this relationship and it is often because the bystanders absence that these situations even happens so yeah i just wanted to add my take on Rudy and why Kris possibly was abused even when Rudy was seemingly healthy.
Thank you so much for your input! I always thought Rudy was complicit in someway, but I never thought to think about how. You brought up a lot of interesting points I would have otherwise overlooked. It's very true that it's important to discuss the bystanders, and I always felt Rudy was one. I also never thought that Rudy knew about the grooming, but he is very willing to push Kris onto Carol and seems to trust Kris to be around Carol a lot. Nobody is helping Kris. It's so sad to see.
An Analysis on Kris and Carol's Incestuous Relationship
I originally posted this on Twitter, but I left twitter due to the Deltarune fandom on there being horribly rancid towards any sort of indication that Carol is grooming Kris, or any indication that Kris is an incest victim. Im cross posting it here for that reason.
DISCLAIMER: I refer to this relationship as incestuous because Carol is a family figure in Kris's life, one who they've known since they were young. Incest is about family dynamics and control, despite Carol not being blood related to Kris, she still has a familial power over them. They are both given family roles that are expected to be held up, which Carol breaks. This would be considered Quasi-Incest. I do not see Carol as purely evil for this, as I don't think any UTDR characters can be chalked up to "pure evil". Carol is an interesting character that we know little about, and this is my interpretation of her.
Now for the actual analysis.
Your first impression of a character is everything, and Carol's first impression tells us a lot about her relationship with Kris. Queen parallels Carol in Chapter 2 and it tells us that Carol was always harsh, but got worse at a point, likely due to Dess's disappearance.
Rudy mentions that Carol is "tough" on Noelle, but when we actually meet her in Chapter 4, it's quite obvious that Carol is more than "tough". Noelle is frightened knowing that her mom has come home and prepares for what Carol will say when she sees Susie with the guitar.
Carol doesn't give her a chance to defend herself even though Dess is Noelle's sister, so Noelle should get to have a say in who touches Dess's things. Carol dismisses Noelle and also Noelle's fear. Noelle hurriedly tries to defend Susie to no avail.
This is when we see the first glimpse of Kris and Carol's relationship. It's a very brief moment, and to most people it doesn't cross their mind that Carol has some sort of control over Kris. Kris stops themselves from leaving once they hear Carol's footsteps. Once Carol puts her hand on Kris's shoulder, we get this line: (You felt something like ice on your shoulder...). It refers to Carol's icy personality, but to me it also refers to Kris's fear. They're uncomfortable and Carol is too close for comfort.
That's when we get this, which places a lot of emphasis on her relation to Kris. Sure, she's talking about how Kris used to go over as a kid and they're a family friend. She's apologizing because Kris saw how she treated Noelle, which tells me she knows it's wrong to some extent.
Something important to note about this is how YOU is in red. I've seen people say that she's referring to the SOUL, but the truth is she's referring to Kris. We see this red text in other places, where it's referring to an action taken explicitly by Kris. These are 2 examples of the bright red text referring to Kris. Not only is it referring to Kris, but they're clearly taking a certain meaning from it. (Thank you to my mutual @/alicelufenia for pointing this out.)
This line would be innocent for the most part if it weren't for the context. Carol's talk sprite during these two lines is very important. They are extremely different from her talk sprites with the encounter with Susie. Which you would say is obvious because she was mad at Susie and Noelle, but her talk sprite is still angry when referring to Asgore. When she talks to Kris, it changes to something menacing and sinister. She's smiling, her eyes are wider, she's clearly putting up some sort of facade to look poised in front of Kris. And then, when she tells them they're always welcome, it changes to a smirk. Maybe to some this doesn't mean anything, but to me, as an artist, it means everything.
Again, this is our first impression of Carol. The art and the dialogue is going to be specific. Why would she smirk, of all things, when telling Kris that? It doesn't ring any bells? It doesn't seem to have implications? It does to me, which brings me to my next point. Noelle says this about the red pillows around the house: "My mom just loves red heart-shaped objects?". I'm a Krissociation believer, so this might have a different meaning to those who don't believe in it, but I think we can all agree that this is obviously referring to Kris. It's read like a joke, but it tells us everything we need to know about Carol's relationship with Kris. She loves red heart-shaped objects? Something that Kris has? A human SOUL? Kris's SOUL? It feels like it's screaming in our face.
Noelle also mentions that Kris would take these heart pillows and prank Noelle with them, which again, is linking the pillows to Kris, and also tells us that Carol has had these for a while. We see these pillows in another part of the house, in Dess's closet. A lot of them. I have my theories on why Dess has these, but I overall believe it's referring to Dess protecting Kris in a way. When Dess was around, Carol didn't hurt them. But now that she's gone, they're in the closet instead of being displayed in the house, and Carol is displaying her own throughout the house. This is why I think Carol started abusing Kris after Dess's disappearance. Carol has always been fascinated with Kris's human SOUL. Now that Dess is gone, there's no one to protect them.
Going back to what I said about the dialogue in Chapter 2, it tells us that Carol got worse at a point. We can also see Kris and Carol's relationship through Queen. This is one of the things about Queen and Kris that stuck out the most to me. It tells us that Kris doesn't go against Carol. They don't tell her no, they don't scream, they fawn into her abuse. Which is shown in Kris's prior relationship with Susie.
Susie was Kris's bully, a very severe one at that (Shown through Noelle's blog entry), and we see that Kris took it all. They never told her to stop, they laughed at her and took her abuse. In the fandom the general idea is that Kris liked it, or they believed they deserved it. But doesn't it seem like a pattern? They never say no, they take all forms of treatment. They fawn into everyone's behaviors. I think Kris took Susie's bullying because they were already being abused by Carol, and the trauma made them believe they deserved it.
Kris’s character revolves around a loss of self control. Susie tells Kris in Chapter 1 “Your choices don’t matter” and they’re reminded of this throughout the whole game. They’re used to not having control, they’re used to not having a choice. They have manifestations of guilt throughout the whole game, which I don’t think I need to show, but something very damning to me is this dialogue. They obsessively wash their hands, even Rudy points it out.
They don’t want to be dirty, they don’t want to be ruined, but they feel like it will never go away no matter how many times they clean themselves. This feels like one of the most glaringly obvious metaphors of CSA you can put in a game. Kris, who stopped going to Noelle’s house after Dess’s disappearance, has much more complicated implications than just growing distant. They stopped going because of her, because they’re haunted, and they’re not safe anymore. And Carol doesn’t make it safe. Kris, who has Carol’s number, evidenced by Carol calling them at the end of the Weird Route, may not be weird to people, but it’s weird to me because of all the other evidence. To a lot of fans, these pieces of evidence are relating to Kris's guilt and shame, but I think two things can be true at once. They can be referring to Kris feeling guilty (about Dess, most likely) and be referring to CSA of some kind.
That's all I have to say about this. Anyone, feel free to add on. There might be stuff I've missed or glossed over. Thank you for reading!
This was a really good analysis of a heavy topic, and one that isn't talked about enough (though to a degree we understand why people are hesitant to broach the topic)
While it is true that we only have a brief introduction to Carol's character so far, first impressions are still immensely important, and you've done a spectacular job of laying out the hints given through Queen who, through the dark worlds, uses the layer of fantasy and whimsy to tell a story of power and parental control that reflects the (ironically) darker implications in the light world.
Also as both a Dess fan and enjoyer of plenty of Kress content (platonic or otherwise), I do thoroughly enjoy that you posit Dess as having a protective role in all this, which I definitely agree with. Part of my issue with so called "Groomer Dess" theories and stories is that they almost never implicate Carol, who is actually seen touching Kris uncomfortably in game, and has clear power over them in the light world (where they are most vulnerable). By comparison, even though the Knight knocks them through a glass pane, injury is easily fixed in the dark world, and later when they are quietly blocked from leaving the final prophecy room and reach out to touch the Knight's hand, there's no sense of apprehension like we get from their narrating the shoulder touch. While I'll be the first to say a lot about the Knight scares Kris (given the flavor text in the fight, and Black Knife having The Chase motif which is always used in fearful moments) when no weapons are drawn it's clear that Kris is more comfortable around it than Carol. So yeah, I don't think Dess ever did something to hurt them the way Carol has
As for what that hurt was, well. You mentioned it briefly when bringing up the topic of the heart pillows, she really likes Kris's SOUL (😫 kill me). Now, I know that you are not necessarily arguing for an allegorical portrayal of incest/grooming here, and I totally understand why. For my own predictions, and based on other things that can be seen as allegory to SA (*cough* weird route) even if they're still treated just as seriously, my money is still on the idea that she either taught Kris to, or encouraged them to remove their SOUL, or has even done it herself. This would be an intense thing to show, so it might even just be alluded to or implied later on. However given other subject matter in the game I wouldn't put it past making an onscreen appearance, in flashback or present, as it would be very effective at making the audience (ie players) appropriately uncomfortable to have someone else take you away from Kris, and have to find a way back to them, or even just forced to wait somewhere else. It doesn't matter what you think the SOUL is, it would be clear that something wrong has been done to Kris in that moment
Anyway, that's all I can think to add here. I'll end with agreeing with you that I don't think Carol is evil if any of this turns out to be true, I think she's a fascinating character whose story is going to touch on a lot of difficult subjects, including parental grief from losing a child, and what lengths a person who tries to control every aspect of their own life (and the lives of family) will go to for closure or a chance to preserve what was lost
I don't think the best ending will see her family together again like it was, but it might have her see a chance to do some proper healing, away from those she's hurt. Meanwhile the kids all deserve to leave as far from Hometown as possible and, I don't know, form a college polycule or something, where none of the adults can impact their lives anymore (and yeah I'm including Dess in there too why not, she probably doesn't even count as entirely alive but they can make it work)
Thank you for your additions, I always enjoy reading what you have to say!
I agree a lot with Carol being someone who encouraged Kris to rip out their SOUL, and I really like the idea that she did it herself at some point. It's such an obvious form of CSA, while not being the "traditional" way. I never thought too much about what Carol would particularly do that would be CSA because I think we don't have enough information on what exactly she is grooming Kris to do, but I always thought it was related to Kris's autonomy. I've had people talk about my analysis and putting emphasis on that Carol isn't "sexually abusing" Kris, even though I state in my analysis that I think she is. I think toying with Kris's SOUL is a form of CSA in Kris's situation. It's not a realistic one (since real life people do not have SOULS that can be rippped out) but in the Deltarune universe I 100% think it's a sexual one. I think in chapter 5 we will get more Carol and Kris content, and I hope so so much that there will be some sort of flashback or hints towards what Carol has been doing to Kris this whole time. And more of Kris being uncomfortable with Carol, most likely at the festival. It's true that the Weird Route is such an obvious allegory for SA, which is why I think we will get more of Carol at play in chapter 5.
Something that was mentioned in the tags of my "Kris is molested" post (I forgot their username but they're there!!) is that they always flirt with enemies. They're shockingly good at using sexuality to protect themselves. I think this is brushed over by the general fandom, they like to flirt and it's funny. But they don't flirt with anyone in the light world. Why is this teenager using flirting to persuade enemies not to hurt them? Is this not reflective of something?
I like your view of the ending, I think all the kids should be happy and free from the adults ruling their lives. Kris especially, they really have no one safe right now except for Susie, who can't do much either.
An Analysis on Kris and Carol's Incestuous Relationship
I originally posted this on Twitter, but I left twitter due to the Deltarune fandom on there being horribly rancid towards any sort of indication that Carol is grooming Kris, or any indication that Kris is an incest victim. Im cross posting it here for that reason.
DISCLAIMER: I refer to this relationship as incestuous because Carol is a family figure in Kris's life, one who they've known since they were young. Incest is about family dynamics and control, despite Carol not being blood related to Kris, she still has a familial power over them. They are both given family roles that are expected to be held up, which Carol breaks. This would be considered Quasi-Incest. I do not see Carol as purely evil for this, as I don't think any UTDR characters can be chalked up to "pure evil". Carol is an interesting character that we know little about, and this is my interpretation of her.
Now for the actual analysis.
Your first impression of a character is everything, and Carol's first impression tells us a lot about her relationship with Kris. Queen parallels Carol in Chapter 2 and it tells us that Carol was always harsh, but got worse at a point, likely due to Dess's disappearance.
Rudy mentions that Carol is "tough" on Noelle, but when we actually meet her in Chapter 4, it's quite obvious that Carol is more than "tough". Noelle is frightened knowing that her mom has come home and prepares for what Carol will say when she sees Susie with the guitar.
Carol doesn't give her a chance to defend herself even though Dess is Noelle's sister, so Noelle should get to have a say in who touches Dess's things. Carol dismisses Noelle and also Noelle's fear. Noelle hurriedly tries to defend Susie to no avail.
This is when we see the first glimpse of Kris and Carol's relationship. It's a very brief moment, and to most people it doesn't cross their mind that Carol has some sort of control over Kris. Kris stops themselves from leaving once they hear Carol's footsteps. Once Carol puts her hand on Kris's shoulder, we get this line: (You felt something like ice on your shoulder...). It refers to Carol's icy personality, but to me it also refers to Kris's fear. They're uncomfortable and Carol is too close for comfort.
That's when we get this, which places a lot of emphasis on her relation to Kris. Sure, she's talking about how Kris used to go over as a kid and they're a family friend. She's apologizing because Kris saw how she treated Noelle, which tells me she knows it's wrong to some extent.
Something important to note about this is how YOU is in red. I've seen people say that she's referring to the SOUL, but the truth is she's referring to Kris. We see this red text in other places, where it's referring to an action taken explicitly by Kris. These are 2 examples of the bright red text referring to Kris. Not only is it referring to Kris, but they're clearly taking a certain meaning from it. (Thank you to my mutual @/alicelufenia for pointing this out.)
This line would be innocent for the most part if it weren't for the context. Carol's talk sprite during these two lines is very important. They are extremely different from her talk sprites with the encounter with Susie. Which you would say is obvious because she was mad at Susie and Noelle, but her talk sprite is still angry when referring to Asgore. When she talks to Kris, it changes to something menacing and sinister. She's smiling, her eyes are wider, she's clearly putting up some sort of facade to look poised in front of Kris. And then, when she tells them they're always welcome, it changes to a smirk. Maybe to some this doesn't mean anything, but to me, as an artist, it means everything.
Again, this is our first impression of Carol. The art and the dialogue is going to be specific. Why would she smirk, of all things, when telling Kris that? It doesn't ring any bells? It doesn't seem to have implications? It does to me, which brings me to my next point. Noelle says this about the red pillows around the house: "My mom just loves red heart-shaped objects?". I'm a Krissociation believer, so this might have a different meaning to those who don't believe in it, but I think we can all agree that this is obviously referring to Kris. It's read like a joke, but it tells us everything we need to know about Carol's relationship with Kris. She loves red heart-shaped objects? Something that Kris has? A human SOUL? Kris's SOUL? It feels like it's screaming in our face.
Noelle also mentions that Kris would take these heart pillows and prank Noelle with them, which again, is linking the pillows to Kris, and also tells us that Carol has had these for a while. We see these pillows in another part of the house, in Dess's closet. A lot of them. I have my theories on why Dess has these, but I overall believe it's referring to Dess protecting Kris in a way. When Dess was around, Carol didn't hurt them. But now that she's gone, they're in the closet instead of being displayed in the house, and Carol is displaying her own throughout the house. This is why I think Carol started abusing Kris after Dess's disappearance. Carol has always been fascinated with Kris's human SOUL. Now that Dess is gone, there's no one to protect them.
Going back to what I said about the dialogue in Chapter 2, it tells us that Carol got worse at a point. We can also see Kris and Carol's relationship through Queen. This is one of the things about Queen and Kris that stuck out the most to me. It tells us that Kris doesn't go against Carol. They don't tell her no, they don't scream, they fawn into her abuse. Which is shown in Kris's prior relationship with Susie.
Susie was Kris's bully, a very severe one at that (Shown through Noelle's blog entry), and we see that Kris took it all. They never told her to stop, they laughed at her and took her abuse. In the fandom the general idea is that Kris liked it, or they believed they deserved it. But doesn't it seem like a pattern? They never say no, they take all forms of treatment. They fawn into everyone's behaviors. I think Kris took Susie's bullying because they were already being abused by Carol, and the trauma made them believe they deserved it.
Kris’s character revolves around a loss of self control. Susie tells Kris in Chapter 1 “Your choices don’t matter” and they’re reminded of this throughout the whole game. They’re used to not having control, they’re used to not having a choice. They have manifestations of guilt throughout the whole game, which I don’t think I need to show, but something very damning to me is this dialogue. They obsessively wash their hands, even Rudy points it out.
They don’t want to be dirty, they don’t want to be ruined, but they feel like it will never go away no matter how many times they clean themselves. This feels like one of the most glaringly obvious metaphors of CSA you can put in a game. Kris, who stopped going to Noelle’s house after Dess’s disappearance, has much more complicated implications than just growing distant. They stopped going because of her, because they’re haunted, and they’re not safe anymore. And Carol doesn’t make it safe. Kris, who has Carol’s number, evidenced by Carol calling them at the end of the Weird Route, may not be weird to people, but it’s weird to me because of all the other evidence. To a lot of fans, these pieces of evidence are relating to Kris's guilt and shame, but I think two things can be true at once. They can be referring to Kris feeling guilty (about Dess, most likely) and be referring to CSA of some kind.
That's all I have to say about this. Anyone, feel free to add on. There might be stuff I've missed or glossed over. Thank you for reading!
Something really interesting about Kris is that when you actually read into them, it feels like Kris just … isn't functional. Like they're not functional as a person at all.
With Noelle, you have in present time her being weirded out by Kris being nice. Like Kris actually complementing her is what makes her think something is wrong, which is funny. In the past? Kris sounds more like a bully to Noelle than anything else, like the shit they pull sounds like actual bullying.
And then when it comes to institutions and authority, they disregard it, and everyone is … fine with it. Adults react to it as if it was expected, Kris just in general seems to regard authority with contempt even when the authority, as far as we know, isn't malicious. And then there's the bath-bombs and battery glue. That's just straight up destroying property.
Everyone just seems to treat Kris the same way you'd treat a "lost cause", the kid you just give up on. Hell, Susie seems to be their only high-end positive friendship and they basically let Kris do whatever. And with Ralsei they did not like him at first despite him just … being helpful.
Kris is just straight up a lost cause. They're weird in a bad, destructive way. Not a villain since Kris can be a positive person but they gravitate towards negative choices more so. They want to force their choices onto others, but don't like it being a two-way street.
Like you can bring up Carol being clearly manipulative and how Kris is probably being fed justifications about Dess but I'm more focused on how the Player, who if you go even neutral, is clearly a positive impact on their lives when normal.
And I think Kris fucking hates that.
Kris only becomes close friends with Susie because we controlled them towards that path. Noelle? We help her, with Kris acting mostly as a vessel. A lot of the good things people around Kris think is their actions and intent is ours.
It's one thing to have your autonomy stripped, but I think it fucking kills them when we go on to be a better person then them. To be shown how people prefer a "you" that isn't "you" must be agonizing. To be shown that people will not truly be close to you unless you essentially rip away your autonomy and give it to someone else.
And that's why I think a part of them is truly relieved when we do the Weird Route, but it's the small assurance that their autonomy, in their eyes, isn't worthless.
Hell, I'd believe Kris already internalized this, and is going along with it because it might the best good thing they'll ever do.
First of all, my deepest apologies if this comes off as patronizing, I really don't want it to be. I did however want to springboard off the ideas you laid down above, and present an analysis that is slightly alternative, but still extremely rich in a metanarrative sense and fitting with the all the themes presented in game to date. Thank you for baring with me
Anyway, the impression I got from you is, while there may be some growing pains in realizing "possession narratives centered around socially maligned mental illnesses are actually prone to severely misrepresent them", you nevertheless are quite correct that Kris has been not doing great for a long time
Like, this dialogue all but confirms (the subtext is loud as a jet plane) that they've been removing their SOUL since they were a child. To the degree where Noelle remembers Kris without their SOUL moreso than with it (their "weak, mumbly voice" is what she remembers D: )
Seeing as we've only seen these pillows being collected by Carol, and in Dess's closet, it's quite likely only they knew, and the pillows existed as kinda a way to gaslight Noelle about what Kris was really doing (Rudy never seems to factor into these discussions funnily enough). As to what purpose, being able to remove their SOUL would be a way to temporarily escape the human part of them, at the expense of losing their agency in the process; they'd be unable to make decisions without it, much like in game where everything they do without their SOUL is either conditioned from earlier, or decided for them by someone else, like Phone Voice. If kept up long-term, they may well have also lost or weakened the ability to form meaningful connections (the power of which resides in their SOUL)
Now, it's our own interpretation that Dess had at least made an attempt to dissuade this, and was stealing the pillows and stashing them in her closet, leading Carol to keep buying (and Dess stealing) more of them. Even if Kris's SOUL makes them different from the rest of their family, Dess would want them to seek their own freedom and become their own person (not to mention stop scaring Noelle with that "prank") and that means living with that part of them. Her disappearance would likely have led to an increase in this behavior, culminating in the "seen many crashes" birdcage we see since the beginning
In short, Kris is largely a mess because they have been living without their SOUL for so long. The reasons why they would are pretty clear if you recognize signs of depression for what they are (the stark empty room, the deteriorating familial and social network, their general disengagement). Whatever choice they made in the past, whatever they might blame themselves for, it's easier to get through the days without those painful connections tugging at your heartstrings (by literally removing said heart)
What makes the start of chapter 1 onward unusual for them (and begins that "unnatural" behavior of socializing more) isn't a "player" arrival necessarily (you can, after all, start a game file at a later chapter. And oh boy we'll get to that soon). It's Susie's arrival. She is the one who leads Kris into the closet, and through bonding together in the dark world, they develop a connection with her that is wholly genuine (I would argue EVERY Kris moment in the Dark Worlds is inherently genuine because of the presence of their SOUL)
They are so funny by the way
What makes the events of Deltarune stick in their gourd, really rile them up like you say, is that they are making meaningful connections now. When, just a day or two ago, they were convinced they were doomed. Probably still think they are doomed, but now it'll feel all the worse because they have these people they care deeply for in their life now. If they could have just waited until the Moment to sacrifice themselves so the most important person in their life can come back (bit of speculation here but, the death flags for Kris are visible from orbit so it's not a big stretch) then everything would have been fine.
Instead, they now have Susie. And Ralsei. Even Noelle is back in their life, for better or for worse (ie what route are we on). They are growing those connections, and potentially forming them with other people too, both Darkners and Lightners.
They have Hope.
The pre-chapter 1 Kris could never have become the Dunk with Susie. But now, not only have they Become That Dunk, they also risk losing it all once they Proceed with the Plan enough. Do they give up everything they've built up in this short time to fulfill that old promise, do they go back on it and risk losing someone just as precious forever, or do they thread the needle and try to get everything they want? And how badly will it blow up in their face? (extremely, is the answer)
And that, in fact, IS actually where you come in
As I mentioned before, the game does allow you to start from (currently) any chapter. What makes this particularly interesting is, if you start from chapter 2 or beyond, the game will record that fact for future chapters:
"Since Chapter 3" should be a mantra in theory space, it is so significant despite almost no one talking about it
When you start from later chapters, the only guarantees are that 1) Some recruits will be missing 2) No enemies were defeated with violence and 3) No unique items, including Shadow Crystals (unless you have a completion save from a previous chapter in the same slot, in which case the crystals earned from previous chapters will be available in Castle Town)
THAT is the real influence you have. The decision to go for every recruit, to use violence or not, to pursue the weird route or not, and (very notably related to prior) to obtain shadow crystals or not
And, presuming that there will come a chapter that a new save file can no longer be started at, OR, a major future-deciding moment for Kris doesn't occur until chapter 7, then your purpose for playing the game is clear: to make sure they SURVIVE
Right now Kris thinks the best thing they can do is die for someone. You need to show them that the real best thing they can do is live for everyone
can more people talk about kris having totally molested vibes. please. their character revolves around a loss of self control, it is the narrative of the game itself. "your choices don't matter" being constantly reminded to them. they are clearly so disconnected from themselves, there is so much dissociation going on. they feel like a ghost of a person. they have strained relationships with pretty much everyone except susie (and its still strained because of their relation to the SOUL and working with the knight), and their strained relationship with noelle raises so many red flags about csa to me. carol is very clearly a controlling figure in their life, i am 100% sure we are going to get more of their dynamic in chapter 5. kris, who suddenly stopped going to noelles house, has much more complicated implications than just growing distant. of course its because of dess, and the amount of guilt they feel there, but i can't not see it as "they stopped going to noelle's house because carol started grooming them". i can't not see it that way. i can't see their strained relationship with noelle, their dissociation when going to her house, carol's hand on kris's shoulder and her smirking talk sprite, as anything but grooming.
the flirting thing always read to me as a metaphor for csa, especially because it surprises noelle. theres secrets that noelle doesn't know but clues that can all lead to them being abused. the flirting, their change in personality, their distance from noelle, even kris letting susie bully them and noelle witnessing it can read as csa. most of the fandom sees it as they think they deserve it, and have their own takes on it (which i agree), but it also reads to me that theyre used to the abuse. and they deserve it because they already are being abused, so now its ingrained in them. it reminds me of this scene in twin peaks fire walk with me (kris's laura palmerisms never stop) where right before this she tells james "even donna doesn't know me". kris's shame feels the same as laura's shame, to me.
can more people talk about kris having totally molested vibes. please. their character revolves around a loss of self control, it is the narrative of the game itself. "your choices don't matter" being constantly reminded to them. they are clearly so disconnected from themselves, there is so much dissociation going on. they feel like a ghost of a person. they have strained relationships with pretty much everyone except susie (and its still strained because of their relation to the SOUL and working with the knight), and their strained relationship with noelle raises so many red flags about csa to me. carol is very clearly a controlling figure in their life, i am 100% sure we are going to get more of their dynamic in chapter 5. kris, who suddenly stopped going to noelles house, has much more complicated implications than just growing distant. of course its because of dess, and the amount of guilt they feel there, but i can't not see it as "they stopped going to noelle's house because carol started grooming them". i can't not see it that way. i can't see their strained relationship with noelle, their dissociation when going to her house, carol's hand on kris's shoulder and her smirking talk sprite, as anything but grooming.
can more people talk about kris having totally molested vibes. please. their character revolves around a loss of self control, it is the narrative of the game itself. "your choices don't matter" being constantly reminded to them. they are clearly so disconnected from themselves, there is so much dissociation going on. they feel like a ghost of a person. they have strained relationships with pretty much everyone except susie (and its still strained because of their relation to the SOUL and working with the knight), and their strained relationship with noelle raises so many red flags about csa to me. carol is very clearly a controlling figure in their life, i am 100% sure we are going to get more of their dynamic in chapter 5. kris, who suddenly stopped going to noelles house, has much more complicated implications than just growing distant. of course its because of dess, and the amount of guilt they feel there, but i can't not see it as "they stopped going to noelle's house because carol started grooming them". i can't not see it that way. i can't see their strained relationship with noelle, their dissociation when going to her house, carol's hand on kris's shoulder and her smirking talk sprite, as anything but grooming.
can more people talk about kris having totally molested vibes. please. their character revolves around a loss of self control, it is the narrative of the game itself. "your choices don't matter" being constantly reminded to them. they are clearly so disconnected from themselves, there is so much dissociation going on. they feel like a ghost of a person. they have strained relationships with pretty much everyone except susie (and its still strained because of their relation to the SOUL and working with the knight), and their strained relationship with noelle raises so many red flags about csa to me. carol is very clearly a controlling figure in their life, i am 100% sure we are going to get more of their dynamic in chapter 5. kris, who suddenly stopped going to noelles house, has much more complicated implications than just growing distant. of course its because of dess, and the amount of guilt they feel there, but i can't not see it as "they stopped going to noelle's house because carol started grooming them". i can't not see it that way. i can't see their strained relationship with noelle, their dissociation when going to her house, carol's hand on kris's shoulder and her smirking talk sprite, as anything but grooming.
saying "this guy is giving me insane molested vibes" and everyone looks at me like i'm crazy because they're apparently incapable of picking up on insane molested vibes
okay so, if Ralsei says that Kris's soul is "the culmination of [their] being" then what do you think it's the reason Kris without the soul has different wants than when they are with the soul in snowgrave route? i'm new to the krissociation meta
I've actually got a post in drafts for this very subject, but I can address it here, why not?
First off, if you're new to Krissociation, it would benefit you to also check out @mrjocrafter's Introduction to Krissociation Meta. I have a similar introduction, but he's much more concise than I am (and also mentions a few more recent developments, like the possible additional narrators that are also parts of Kris)
The short answer is, it's a reading of the game that doesn't assume a Diegetic Player controlling Kris, instead attributing their split motivation to an internal divide. There's a bit more to it, but that's enough to get started
Now, Weird Route is one of people's biggest sticking points with any Non-Diegetic player view of the game because "Why does Weird Route happen the way it does?" is a common question we get. I'll start by laying some base assumptions, many of which are shared even in the mainstream readings of the game; the different dialogue choices come from Kris, they represent things that Kris could reasonably choose to do (so for instance, you never have the option to draw your knife and attack a Hometown resident, because Kris simply would never do that, therefore they are never in danger of the player choosing to do that), and at least the conception of the Weird Route (THE FORBIDDEN PATH BEGAN WITH ICE MAGIC) is either something known to Kris, or a series of actions they actively worry about (I personally don't wholly subscribe to the "acting on Intrusive Thoughts" theory of Weird Route, but it's a common enough reading it deserves mention). Also, Kris is The Same Person on the Normal and Weird Route, just like the SOUL is the same Thing on both routes (since there are many options to back out, and an abandoned Weird Route becomes a Normal Route with very little changes, so far)
So, Chapter 2 Weird Route starting means that, unless future chapters reveal that Kris is aware of resets (so far it seems like no one in the story is, and the Voice is outside the story enough I don't think they count), a Weird Route Kris is not aware that the Normal Route is a thing, and is the "better" outcome. For all they know, this is the only way forward (only way to Proceed, you might say). That is why they don't really offer much if any resistance during chapter 2, though clearly they hesitate to call on Noelle against Neo Spamton (they whisper her name, as a last resort) So, after the Cyber World, Kris goes and slashes the tires, and presumably, retrieve Berdly (who is either an unfortunate casualty, or the victim of their temporary ire over how he's kind of "replaced" Kris in Noelle's life. Either way, Kris clearly has regrets immediately in that regard, but doesn't want to involve Susie in helping him for whatever reason)
(Needless to say, there's still a lot of mysteries surrounding the Weird Route that I'm not going to try and answer here. Only that it focuses on Noelle, and making her stronger at a potentially high cost makes a sort of sense for Kris in a desperate kind of way, but given the ease of accidentally cancelling the route, the means of manipulating Noelle to this end are tricky to pull off)
Once we get to Chapter 4 is where the talk of Kris being wholly opposed to the route really starts. At some point between chapters 3 and 4. It has to be then, because Noelle talks about Kris visiting her "last night", and it was still "yesterday" (the hospital inexplicably closes at night??????) when Berdly was brought in, so, has to be after TV World. I can think of a few things that may have changed their mind (Fighting Eram, facing the Knight, the family trauma resurfaced with Tenna's Everything, the list goes on). So, the part of them that doesn't start all this (their "body" for lack of a better common name for that part) tries to compromise
That's right, I say compromise. Because let's take a step back for a second and assume that Possession is 100% what's happening, and Kris never wanted to do any of this, and for some reason the SOUL just has More Control over them when being evil. It's contrived as hell, but let's roll with it. With that assumption, it makes no sense why Kris would go to the trouble to seek out Noelle, give back her watch, re-assure her everything was a dream, remove the Thorn, and then (instead of just THROWING IT AWAY or HIDING IT), tells her not to talk about this later
This is a super important part that gets overlooked so much. Kris approaching her without their SOUL (without their Guiding Light as it were) is a sign that they are avoiding making a difficult decision. Notice how, they remove their SOUL whenever they make a choice that was either self-indulgent (eating pie, choccy milk, playing the piano), OR, is at the behest of someone with more authority over them. The Knight, Carol, whoever they're coordinating with
In the Weird Route, the person they are coordinating with—the person they have left the decision of whether to move forward with this path that's going to be painful for both of them— is NOELLE. They tell HER not to bring it up, not to ask them about it later, and then they KEEP THE THORN. "(Recently, seems like weapons can't be thrown away so easily.)" That is dialogue you get BEFORE the WR bedroom scene, if you try and drop the holiday pencil you pick up in Noelle's room (and weirdly, the hot chocolate later, but that seems like a bug to me). Kris has already decided that it's not worth discarding potentially useful weapons. They have, essentially, passed the buck to Noelle to decide whether they are both going to forget all about this, or actually do this For Real. So-
Come the next day, not only does Noelle approach them and Susie about visiting the Holiday house, not only does she find Kris while Susie is away to talk to them in private, but she also, Against Their Wishes, talks about what happened. It's worth noting, the issue isn't that she tells them about her feelings of their visit, about reassuring her it was a dream and Berdly will be fine. She goes on to tell them about when they took the thorn from her finger. That is the bargain of power that they were trying to back down on. It's also the part where
A dialogue box pops up that, according to everything we've been shown about the SOUL so far, should not exist.
I shouldn't need to remind you, Kris just removed their SOUL to get rid of a dialogue box not 5 minutes ago in Dess's room. Yet here, it is not only showing up, but doing funky things that's never happened before (because we've never gotten a dialogue box outside of Kris before). The conclusion I, and many of my fellow theorists have is simply that: Kris initiated this choice. Because they knew this was too difficult for them to choose. They are desperately calling on their SOUL to save them from this situation
This isn't the behavior of someone who has been puppeted against their will all this time, but rather someone with very complicated feelings, possibly anticipating painful things in the future that they are trying to half justify what they might put themself and Noelle through now, and most of all, reeling from the fact that Noelle is betraying their trust in this moment
(Before I continue I want to make it clear, I am NOT victim blaming Noelle. She doesn't deserve what's happening, no one does, but she's not a perfect victim either, and neither is Kris. Nuance in character motivation is a fun thing, and toxic relationships can form even between two people who love and care for each other. Anyone can become an abuser. There doesn't need to be an Irredeemable Abuser vs Perfect Victim here)
Kris told her not to talk about it. They gave her an out; they can put all this behind them so long as she doesn't bring it up. And you know, if this was Susie? She would be fine with that and move on. Kris can trust Susie not to go prying into their secrets if they don't want to be forthcoming about them. Not Noelle though. Noelle is, and I say this with all the love in my heart for that doe, suffering a terminal case of Main Character Syndrome. Kris is more than a friend she's concerned for, they've become a Problem for her to Solve, the way they would unravel the mystery in a game, poke and prod to uncover the gap that lets her clip through the assigned boundaries into the Unknown. She is being THE ULTIMATE Player Parallel in Weird Route, because if YOU were told by a mysterious NPC "Hey all that stuff you experienced, it wasn't real, don't even worry about it, and don't talk about this later". Well, that's a road sign to push further if ever I've seen one
And Kris does not appreciate this. If you fail to rejoin with them, they panic and act drastically to change the scenario; they grab Noelle and rush her out of the Scene, out of the Conversation, back to Susie, Susie is safety, Susie can be trusted to talk about literally anything else but this. Then they come back inside, and grab you with prejudice. Because YOU are forcing them to choose. YOUR TAKING TOO LONG
The other outcome if you re-enter them and move forward, is that, when Kris tries to stop her from talking about it (they're so scared all they can think to do is cover her mouth they don't have words right now to tell her please stop talking), Noelle thinks it's okay for her to mention this because (despite what they asked of her) she thinks they're only concerned about it getting "heard" but they're alone, so who would hear that shouldn't?
Now, this often gets sighted as Proof that the "Me" is somehow an exception to the rule that dialogue choices come from Kris, and this is The Entity directly speaking and overpowering Kris. But again, that's not how any other dialogue choices have worked, before or since. In this moment, given what Noelle just said (who do we need to worry about hearing?) they say exactly this, "Me." As in Kris. Kris wasn't supposed to hear this, Noelle wasn't supposed to bring this up again. And now they are ANGRY
We have to understand, at this point Noelle has NO REASON to assume Kris is possessed here, and this doesn't change anything. She doesn't have the information we do. She doesn't know Kris acted in opposition to their SOUL. The Scary Reveal here is that Kris is in Serious Mode, which takes Noelle by complete surprise and frightens her. It's worth noting that "That voice... the voice from my dream" is obviously there to feed the paranoia that Kris is possessed (as a Player Parallel of course that's what Noelle's words are dancing around) but someone's voice being different isn't the same as them being a different person. This is the same kind of mannerism Kris adopted to manipulate Noelle in Cyber World, which is what scares her
At this point the only way to back out is to fall back on her assumption that it was a prank. And get slapped for it. But let's talk about the point of no return. It COULD have been earlier. It could have been at the "ME" but it isn't. It's only after Kris confirms to Noelle that they can read her mind
Because that changes their relationship permanently, doesn't it? Suddenly she can't trust having any privacy around them, can't keep secrets. They've been distant until now, but this is too close, it's too intimate. So Kris gives up all pretense of backing down now, because if it's come to this, then they are both doing this for real, no more half-measures. They will go all the way (reach the Absolute, to draw on a Kris-Chara parallel). They're gonna get married and be together forever, because there's no going back to being just friends now
(btw, if it really was meant to be the "Kris is actually possessed and this is the proof" moment, instead of "Me" it makes more sense if the option was "[FileName]". Think about it! That'd be wild, and pretty solid confirmation)
THAT is why they beat the SOUL afterwards. You were supposed to save them from this
So, I hope that made sense. In case it wasn't obvious, this is NOT a case of the Evil Alter trope. There is no "Snowgrave" Alter inflicting the route on a purely innocent Kris and Noelle. This dark path requires the cooperation of multiple parts of Kris, and a negotiation between them that breaks down when something outside their control (Noelle refusing to let it rest) interferes
Anyway, that's why Gerson talks to them later about relationship troubles and dealing with depression, hope that clears it up
i dont like to theorize too much about things we dont have enough information on, but at the moment i dont think carol knows about the dark worlds. "YOU are always welcome here" was not her admission to knowing about the SOUL, it was her reminding kris of her role in their life. YOU being in red, to me, is a red herring of sorts (maybe). but it's also her telling kris: i know who you really are, the parts you try to hide, i know what you hate about yourself. and her saying this after the incident with susie felt like a jab at kris's affection towards her. "you felt something like ice on your shoulder" is a double meaning. it represents carol's icy personality, but also kris's uncomfortableness. not to mention carol's talksprite changing to a smirk. it all feels very confrontational and horrifying to kris.
Honestly, yeah, especially given the only other instances of that bright red text:
are referring to actions taken explicitly by Kris.
Even this one
See?
So yeah, she is referring to Kris most likely, but they clearly are taking a certain meaning from her statement
Anyway I wish people noticed this more instead of just taking Carol as another "knows what's going on but won't say for SOME reason" character (which is practically everyone in the main cast except Susie apparently)
i didn't notice this about the red text, so thank you for pointing it out! this only further proves my point that the YOU being in red is talking about kris. carol knowing about the SOUL and the dark worlds and the knight truly makes no sense if all youre getting from it is this statement which, to me, clearly feels like she's being manipulative and controlling. more people should really bring up the talk sprite and the hand on the shoulder because it all feels so wrong. especially the talksprite changing into a smirk when she says that. it's ominous. it's uncomfortable.
Granted, I still think she does have some connection to Kris's SOUL (sorry I still like to highlight it red), or at least knows about it, given how much the heart (or human soul) shaped pillows feature in the house, and have for a very long time
She just really likes heart-shaped objects
These pillows in Dess's closet are unusual too! Now, without any further context, I have a theory (because I think Dess already did something in the past to Fuck Up Kris and doesn't need this on her conscience too) that Dess and Carol had a bit of a mother-daughter rivalry over the latter's insistence on decorating the house with essentially a representation of the most intimate and vulnerable part of Kris (as well as the part that makes them stand out from monsters).
Dess would respond by straight up stealing them and stashing them where her mother wouldn't go: her closet. The huge pile implying Carol would keep buying more, and Dess would steal them just as fast. Very similar to Rose and her mother constantly trying to out passive-aggressive each other in early Homestuck (the Holiday Mansion being the most Homestuck Guardian house we've seen in the game so far, to the point Toby Fox asked Andrew Hussie for advice and she wanted to give it a massive Papyrus bust, because she loves a good bust ig)
The reason might have to do with Dess dissuading Kris from removing their SOUL (using the heart pillows as plausible deniability for it being a "prank" if Noelle caught them) cause she recognized it as the self harm it is
Meanwhile Carol just has this obsessive fascination with that heart-shaped object, this piece of unique power Kris has. That requires physically hurting and violating them to bring out and see (even if they've only ever done it themselves). What a convenient metaphor for all sorts of potential abuse that Toby Fox might otherwise be hesitant to outright depict in his T-rated nintendo game
Look I'm just saying, they're not there for no reason
i always thought carol’s obsession with heart shaped objects was a calling to her relationship with kris, so im really interested in this theory. i think if carol is grooming kris in some way, or hurting them, she 100% knows about the SOUL. no doubt about it. but she doesn’t know about us, which is what a lot of people come to the conclusion of when they read that line. it’s what I meant when I said carol saying YOU, in red, is her asserting her place in kris’s life. bringing dess into it is very interesting though. theres so much about dess and kris’s relationship that i feel is going to be expanded on a lot in chapter 5. ive seen some people say that dess repeated the cycle that carol did, in some way, and it interests me. the pillows are very much a flag toby is trying to tell us though. i might be convinced of this view of it.
i dont like to theorize too much about things we dont have enough information on, but at the moment i dont think carol knows about the dark worlds. "YOU are always welcome here" was not her admission to knowing about the SOUL, it was her reminding kris of her role in their life. YOU being in red, to me, is a red herring of sorts (maybe). but it's also her telling kris: i know who you really are, the parts you try to hide, i know what you hate about yourself. and her saying this after the incident with susie felt like a jab at kris's affection towards her. "you felt something like ice on your shoulder" is a double meaning. it represents carol's icy personality, but also kris's uncomfortableness. not to mention carol's talksprite changing to a smirk. it all feels very confrontational and horrifying to kris.
Honestly, yeah, especially given the only other instances of that bright red text:
are referring to actions taken explicitly by Kris.
Even this one
See?
So yeah, she is referring to Kris most likely, but they clearly are taking a certain meaning from her statement
Anyway I wish people noticed this more instead of just taking Carol as another "knows what's going on but won't say for SOME reason" character (which is practically everyone in the main cast except Susie apparently)
i didn't notice this about the red text, so thank you for pointing it out! this only further proves my point that the YOU being in red is talking about kris. carol knowing about the SOUL and the dark worlds and the knight truly makes no sense if all youre getting from it is this statement which, to me, clearly feels like she's being manipulative and controlling. more people should really bring up the talk sprite and the hand on the shoulder because it all feels so wrong. especially the talksprite changing into a smirk when she says that. it's ominous. it's uncomfortable.
i dont like to theorize too much about things we dont have enough information on, but at the moment i dont think carol knows about the dark worlds. "YOU are always welcome here" was not her admission to knowing about the SOUL, it was her reminding kris of her role in their life. YOU being in red, to me, is a red herring of sorts (maybe). but it's also her telling kris: i know who you really are, the parts you try to hide, i know what you hate about yourself. and her saying this after the incident with susie felt like a jab at kris's affection towards her. "you felt something like ice on your shoulder" is a double meaning. it represents carol's icy personality, but also kris's uncomfortableness. not to mention carol's talksprite changing to a smirk. it all feels very confrontational and horrifying to kris.
That was an excellent document, you put these arguments way better than I can. It was very nice reading, I need to add it to my Krissociation archive at some point.
thank you so much! ive seen a lot of your krissociation posts and they were apart of my inspiration, so i really appreciate this!
