Therian Territory

Why can't we call phantom shifts "phantom limbs"?

I might make a video about this in the future, but I'd like to make you all aware of a recent development in alterhuman terminology. The use of the medical term "phantom limbs" is heavily tied to Phantom Limb Syndrome (PLS) which is a medical condition that affects amputees and those born with congenital differences in anatomy. It can be similar but is vastly different from what otherkin and therians experience during phantom shifts. People experiences PLS have made it known that comparing phantom shifts to the actual loss of a limb or PLS is offensive, so this will not be done again. We recommend using the words phantom shifts, parts or appendages, or specify that appendages such as phantom paws, wings, tails, etc. instead.

I personally take responsibility for having made this comparison in the past, and I'd like to apologize to people who experience PLS or have lost a limb for doing so. It was not my place to make this comparison, as I cannot know what the experiences is actually like.

I urge everyone who may own an Alterhuman platform (whether that be a Discord server or social media platform) to spread the word about this. You are free to use part of this text to explain things.

With all due respect, phantom limbs in this community is just a shorter term for supernumerary phantom limbs, which is also a medically recognized term and which is accurate to what otherkin and therians are referring to when we talk about phantom shifts. We just tend to shorten it to just “phantom limbs” because “supernumerary” is a long word and in context people usually know already that what’s being talked about isn’t a phantom limb caused by amputation.

To say that “phantom limb” is a taboo term but “phantom wing” or “phantom leg”, or even a direct synonym like “phantom appendage” also doesn’t… honestly make a lot of sense to me. It’s the “phantom” part that’s descriptive and the “phantom” part that’s tied to normal phantom limb syndrome, not the “limb” part.

Furthermore, why is it supposedly offensive? You claim the two experiences are “vastly different”; what differences are you referencing exactly? The experience is that of feeling a sensation of having a limb that doesn’t physically exist (and in the case of supernumerary phantom limbs, which never physically existed), sometimes accompanied by pain; what is the supposed “vast difference”?

Or - and I admit I’m jumping the gun here if there actually is a satisfactory answer to that previous question, but I’ve never seen anyone who claims that it’s offensive to use “phantom limbs/shifts” be able to answer it, so I’m going to jump the gun anyway - is this perhaps another case like the debacle around “species dysphoria” as a term, in which someone is getting upset because they think that our experiences aren’t as serious, real, and/or important as theirs, and thus perceives us using terminology which is accurate, but is also shared with another group, as “mockery”?

unlikely-archangel

Seconding everything Rani's said here, but adding on--is this only otherkin/therians that can no longer use the term "(supernumerary) phantom limbs" or are headmates okay to? What if my wings are something I have in headspace and source (I'm a fictive, not 'kin) and I get phantoms of 'em on the body--am I allowed to call them phantom limbs? Am I valid enough for that, or am I supposedly appropriating here? Are my (now gone) limbs real enough to me to use the term, or is this hurting a small handful of people that absolutely cannot deal with someone experiencing something similar to them in a different way or coming in from a different direction? (And by phantom wings, I mean it--they're constant, they're heavy, and I can feel every feather and every articulation. It's not a shift. It just Is.)

Look, Thorn. You're tryin' to come from a good place, and I appreciate that. But the way you're coming at it is just gonna confuse and hurt people more, and I don't think you're addressing the issues that people are bringing up with your argument. I'd recommend taking a step back and thinking it over a bit more. You're coming at this like you're an authority, saying that "we can't call them phantom limbs" and telling people to spread the word on all of their platforms. This isn't how communities have conversations. This is how you try to strong-arm people into taking on your point of view.

This is a critique point I can understand. And I apologize if my approach was wrong! I will alter my message to make it more a self-opion-based message, and let's hope this will cool down the heat a little. In my defense (which isn't an excuse but just the reason why the approach was wrong), is because this message stems from an announcement I made in my discord server, where we have decided to put this out more as a statement from the staff than a debate (hence the use of "we" instead of I).

Let's hope I can bring this critique into the video I was planning to make as well. But I will still stand by my opinion. And even if it may not be perceived as well by others, I would find it wrong to completely ignore the outreach of people with PLS, etc. EDIT: as a new Tumblr user I was not aware that reblogged posts will remain the same even after editing the original post. Sooo I suppose I could repost the version? Link to the new post: https://www.tumblr.com/therianterritory/736639770775764992/why-people-with-pls-find-the-use-of-phantom?source=share

Why can't we call phantom shifts "phantom limbs"?

I might make a video about this in the future, but I'd like to make you all aware of a recent development in alterhuman terminology. The use of the medical term "phantom limbs" is heavily tied to Phantom Limb Syndrome (PLS) which is a medical condition that affects amputees and those born with congenital differences in anatomy. It can be similar but is vastly different from what otherkin and therians experience during phantom shifts. People experiences PLS have made it known that comparing phantom shifts to the actual loss of a limb or PLS is offensive, so this will not be done again. We recommend using the words phantom shifts, parts or appendages, or specify that appendages such as phantom paws, wings, tails, etc. instead.

I personally take responsibility for having made this comparison in the past, and I'd like to apologize to people who experience PLS or have lost a limb for doing so. It was not my place to make this comparison, as I cannot know what the experiences is actually like.

I urge everyone who may own an Alterhuman platform (whether that be a Discord server or social media platform) to spread the word about this. You are free to use part of this text to explain things.

With all due respect, phantom limbs in this community is just a shorter term for supernumerary phantom limbs, which is also a medically recognized term and which is accurate to what otherkin and therians are referring to when we talk about phantom shifts. We just tend to shorten it to just “phantom limbs” because “supernumerary” is a long word and in context people usually know already that what’s being talked about isn’t a phantom limb caused by amputation.

To say that “phantom limb” is a taboo term but “phantom wing” or “phantom leg”, or even a direct synonym like “phantom appendage” also doesn’t… honestly make a lot of sense to me. It’s the “phantom” part that’s descriptive and the “phantom” part that’s tied to normal phantom limb syndrome, not the “limb” part.

Furthermore, why is it supposedly offensive? You claim the two experiences are “vastly different”; what differences are you referencing exactly? The experience is that of feeling a sensation of having a limb that doesn’t physically exist (and in the case of supernumerary phantom limbs, which never physically existed), sometimes accompanied by pain; what is the supposed “vast difference”?

Or - and I admit I’m jumping the gun here if there actually is a satisfactory answer to that previous question, but I’ve never seen anyone who claims that it’s offensive to use “phantom limbs/shifts” be able to answer it, so I’m going to jump the gun anyway - is this perhaps another case like the debacle around “species dysphoria” as a term, in which someone is getting upset because they think that our experiences aren’t as serious, real, and/or important as theirs, and thus perceives us using terminology which is accurate, but is also shared with another group, as “mockery”?

I'm sick with the flu so my interjection here will be short, but why is it that--as a trans person--my experiences of phantom genitalia aren't considered to be offensive until suddenly they're revealed to be not a one-to-one match with "standard" opposite-sex human genitalia? -chinhands- I'm allowed to call my dick a dick up until people realize I'm alterhuman, is that it? Other non-alterhuman transgender people who experience phantom genitalia that I know offline, and my friends who experience human phantoms due to events which have occurred to their physical human bodies, never have had an issue with the terminology I use to describe my experience to them, and the relevant medical professionals in my life have never had issue with it either, but as soon as it hits the Interwebs it's suddenly, magically, a problem?

It's the "species dysphoria" argument all over again. It's unscientific, ahistorical, and completely, unilaterally fucking offensive and presumptuous.

If an alterhuman amputee directly comes to me to note that several amputees are offended by the fact that we use such a medical term, and that the experience is inherently different than phantom shifts, then I see no reason not to listen to them. It's not the same as dysphoria, because dysphoria is quite literally way more than just gender-related. Phantom limbs are directly from amputees or people who experience Supernumerary phantom limbs.

Just as I cannot directly speak for amputees, non-amputees cannot speak against them either: we do not know what it's like to no longer have a limb.

I mean, I've spoken with an alterhuman who experiences phantom sensations before due to things that have happened with their physical human body, and who's said its comparable to their alterhuman phantoms as well.

Nonhuman phantom limbs as experienced by both alterhumans and people who choose not to use the term, and phantom genitalia and secondary sex characteristics, are supernumerary phantom limbs. By definition. A supernumerary phantom limb is a phantom for a part you were not born with, an "additional limb" if you will.

You and your friend's argument here is quintessentially, "alterhumans with supernumerary phantom limbs aren't as real or deserving of accurate terminology as non-alterhumans with supernumerary phantom limbs," which is insulting on every level. You're functionally saying that people who happen who also be alterhuman with supernumerary phantom limbs are lying or exaggerating about their experiences, and don't deserve to have an accurate medical term applied to them. Which, surprise, is the exact same argument people make regarding the term dysphoria!

Why does it make it okay to call my phantom limbs phantom limbs only if I'm not a part of the alterhuman community?

Why is where we draw a line in the sand entirely dependent on self-identification with vague, nebulous, wholly-voluntary community terminology?

I'm also going to point out that you choose to address the dude with a fever before addressing Rani's reblog, which obviously had significant time and effort put into it, and which was here first. That's kind of inconsiderate.

I am surprised by the amount of assumptions made within your message. I reacted to messages that stood out to me and that I felt the need to reply to. Not replying to anyone's message literally doesn't mean anything, not to mention that I was a little bombarded by replies both positive and negative.

It is important to note that phantom shifts can be experienced on many levels, and while for some alterhumans it may be as real as a phantom limb (as far as they can tell), to others it will never go further than a slight sensation. So while I totally do not mind if some alterhumans actually do experience supernumerary phantom limbs and may therefore call it phantom limbs, it's important to think about the fact that a LOT of alterhumans also don't. I cannot classify my phantom experiences to be as defined as one would experience a phantom limb, for example (And that doesn't make my experience any less real btw).

So it's good that you point out that some alterhumans may experience it to a more severe level, I am not claiming that those who experience it to that degree are exaggerating. But ESPECIALLY since alterhumanity as a whole is not anything of medical significance (at least to most it's not), I feel like it's disrespectful to claim that ALL physical shifts are comparable to phantom limbs/pain (as a lot do, and as have I in the past) and that people can therefore call it a phantom limb. To most this will just not be the case. I have never personally met anyone who experiences phantom limbs to that degree (but will not deny that it exists or anything, just stating most probably don't).

If by any chance I can contact the person who you've spoken to, to get both sides on things for my video interview, that would be beneficial!

You are completely entitled to your own opinion on this topic, but I'd prefer if we left out the accusations (such as kinshaming) and just kept this as a civil discussion. Maybe ask questions before pointing fingers.

#Kinshaming is my tag for arguments with other alterhumans. If you don't like this part of my sorting system, you are welcome to file your complaints in the box next to the "I don't like the #aok tag for discourse!" one.

I'm also going to be honest-- the person I discussed this with when you first brought it up ages ago in private was there, in OtherConnect, while things were going down. They didn't want to get drawn into the mess, for precisely the reason you're demonstrating here: it becomes the a dick-measuring contest of who is more valid. It becomes a situation where someone's legitimacy is based entirely on how much personal information they are willing to reveal about themself.

They follow my blog; they'll see this reblog. If they choose to interject in the argument or reach out to you, then more power to them, but I literally will not ask people to talk to you when the rhetoric you're espousing is just as damaging and gatekeeping as any other hierarchy-based system of "realness."

I mean, do you hear yourself? Do you actually, for real, hear yourself?

"[W]hile for some alterhumans it may be as real as a phantom limb (as far as they can tell), to others it will never go further than a slight sensation" ... so, just because some people may be experiencing weaker phantom sensations than others, they're ergo not "real"? They don't deserve to use the terminology which accurately represents their experience? That's what I'm to understand here? Do you not see how messed up that is?

And as far as "alterhumanity as a whole is not anything of medical significance" ... people have been arguing in favor of psychological and neurological reasons for alterhumanity for literal decades. Are we really gonna play the 'spiritual alterhumans are the most valid form of alterhumanity' game here? Because, I'd like to leave that train of thought back in the early 2000's where it belongs.

More than that, who are you to judge the legitimacy of other's phantoms and dictate what terms they're allowed to use? Who made you judge, jury, and executioner?

I have a full-fledged phantom body. All the time, every day: It reacts to prosthetics being used in connection with it, it reacts to painkillers and other medications, it reacts to interactions with the world around it to the point where my spouse can actively tell where my phantoms are based on my unconscious body movements, up to and including WHEN I AM ASLEEP. I am not a particularly unique or outlier example within the alterhuman community of this phenomena. Just because you feel like your experiences aren't classifiable as phantom limbs doesn't mean you can suddenly make that call for every other person in the community, and it's really, really fucked up of you to try.

The kinshaming tag was just an example. And since this discussion apparently has a lot of high emotions involved from your side, I will respectfully take a step back and end this discussion if assumptions are made like "playing the 'spiritual alterhumanity is more valid' game" while I am literally a psychological therian myself (mostly). I cannot make my points clear and listen to you with full overview if all I see is anger.

My whole point in this discussion that I tried to make clear is that I am NOT the judge of things, but neither are you. I hear your side of things, and I will keep things into account, but I will continue to look into the topic and allow people to express an opinion if it seems important like this. You are completely free to disagree. Let's end it there.

Why can't we call phantom shifts "phantom limbs"?

I might make a video about this in the future, but I'd like to make you all aware of a recent development in alterhuman terminology. The use of the medical term "phantom limbs" is heavily tied to Phantom Limb Syndrome (PLS) which is a medical condition that affects amputees and those born with congenital differences in anatomy. It can be similar but is vastly different from what otherkin and therians experience during phantom shifts. People experiences PLS have made it known that comparing phantom shifts to the actual loss of a limb or PLS is offensive, so this will not be done again. We recommend using the words phantom shifts, parts or appendages, or specify that appendages such as phantom paws, wings, tails, etc. instead.

I personally take responsibility for having made this comparison in the past, and I'd like to apologize to people who experience PLS or have lost a limb for doing so. It was not my place to make this comparison, as I cannot know what the experiences is actually like.

I urge everyone who may own an Alterhuman platform (whether that be a Discord server or social media platform) to spread the word about this. You are free to use part of this text to explain things.

With all due respect, phantom limbs in this community is just a shorter term for supernumerary phantom limbs, which is also a medically recognized term and which is accurate to what otherkin and therians are referring to when we talk about phantom shifts. We just tend to shorten it to just “phantom limbs” because “supernumerary” is a long word and in context people usually know already that what’s being talked about isn’t a phantom limb caused by amputation.

To say that “phantom limb” is a taboo term but “phantom wing” or “phantom leg”, or even a direct synonym like “phantom appendage” also doesn’t… honestly make a lot of sense to me. It’s the “phantom” part that’s descriptive and the “phantom” part that’s tied to normal phantom limb syndrome, not the “limb” part.

Furthermore, why is it supposedly offensive? You claim the two experiences are “vastly different”; what differences are you referencing exactly? The experience is that of feeling a sensation of having a limb that doesn’t physically exist (and in the case of supernumerary phantom limbs, which never physically existed), sometimes accompanied by pain; what is the supposed “vast difference”?

Or - and I admit I’m jumping the gun here if there actually is a satisfactory answer to that previous question, but I’ve never seen anyone who claims that it’s offensive to use “phantom limbs/shifts” be able to answer it, so I’m going to jump the gun anyway - is this perhaps another case like the debacle around “species dysphoria” as a term, in which someone is getting upset because they think that our experiences aren’t as serious, real, and/or important as theirs, and thus perceives us using terminology which is accurate, but is also shared with another group, as “mockery”?

I'm sick with the flu so my interjection here will be short, but why is it that--as a trans person--my experiences of phantom genitalia aren't considered to be offensive until suddenly they're revealed to be not a one-to-one match with "standard" opposite-sex human genitalia? -chinhands- I'm allowed to call my dick a dick up until people realize I'm alterhuman, is that it? Other non-alterhuman transgender people who experience phantom genitalia that I know offline, and my friends who experience human phantoms due to events which have occurred to their physical human bodies, never have had an issue with the terminology I use to describe my experience to them, and the relevant medical professionals in my life have never had issue with it either, but as soon as it hits the Interwebs it's suddenly, magically, a problem?

It's the "species dysphoria" argument all over again. It's unscientific, ahistorical, and completely, unilaterally fucking offensive and presumptuous.

If an alterhuman amputee directly comes to me to note that several amputees are offended by the fact that we use such a medical term, and that the experience is inherently different than phantom shifts, then I see no reason not to listen to them. It's not the same as dysphoria, because dysphoria is quite literally way more than just gender-related. Phantom limbs are directly from amputees or people who experience Supernumerary phantom limbs.

Just as I cannot directly speak for amputees, non-amputees cannot speak against them either: we do not know what it's like to no longer have a limb.

I mean, I've spoken with an alterhuman who experiences phantom sensations before due to things that have happened with their physical human body, and who's said its comparable to their alterhuman phantoms as well.

Nonhuman phantom limbs as experienced by both alterhumans and people who choose not to use the term, and phantom genitalia and secondary sex characteristics, are supernumerary phantom limbs. By definition. A supernumerary phantom limb is a phantom for a part you were not born with, an "additional limb" if you will.

You and your friend's argument here is quintessentially, "alterhumans with supernumerary phantom limbs aren't as real or deserving of accurate terminology as non-alterhumans with supernumerary phantom limbs," which is insulting on every level. You're functionally saying that people who happen who also be alterhuman with supernumerary phantom limbs are lying or exaggerating about their experiences, and don't deserve to have an accurate medical term applied to them. Which, surprise, is the exact same argument people make regarding the term dysphoria!

Why does it make it okay to call my phantom limbs phantom limbs only if I'm not a part of the alterhuman community?

Why is where we draw a line in the sand entirely dependent on self-identification with vague, nebulous, wholly-voluntary community terminology?

I'm also going to point out that you choose to address the dude with a fever before addressing Rani's reblog, which obviously had significant time and effort put into it, and which was here first. That's kind of inconsiderate.

I am surprised by the amount of assumptions made within your message. I reacted to messages that stood out to me and that I felt the need to reply to. Not replying to anyone's message literally doesn't mean anything, not to mention that I was a little bombarded by replies both positive and negative.

It is important to note that phantom shifts can be experienced on many levels, and while for some alterhumans it may be as real as a phantom limb (as far as they can tell), to others it will never go further than a slight sensation. So while I totally do not mind if some alterhumans actually do experience supernumerary phantom limbs and may therefore call it phantom limbs, it's important to think about the fact that a LOT of alterhumans also don't. I cannot classify my phantom experiences to be as defined as one would experience a phantom limb, for example (And that doesn't make my experience any less real btw).

So it's good that you point out that some alterhumans may experience it to a more severe level, I am not claiming that those who experience it to that degree are exaggerating. But ESPECIALLY since alterhumanity as a whole is not anything of medical significance (at least to most it's not), I feel like it's disrespectful to claim that ALL physical shifts are comparable to phantom limbs/pain (as a lot do, and as have I in the past) and that people can therefore call it a phantom limb. To most this will just not be the case. I have never personally met anyone who experiences phantom limbs to that degree (but will not deny that it exists or anything, just stating most probably don't).

If by any chance I can contact the person who you've spoken to, to get both sides on things for my video interview, that would be beneficial!

You are completely entitled to your own opinion on this topic, but I'd prefer if we left out the accusations (such as kinshaming) and just kept this as a civil discussion. Maybe ask questions before pointing fingers.

Why can't we call phantom shifts "phantom limbs"?

I might make a video about this in the future, but I'd like to make you all aware of a recent development in alterhuman terminology. The use of the medical term "phantom limbs" is heavily tied to Phantom Limb Syndrome (PLS) which is a medical condition that affects amputees and those born with congenital differences in anatomy. It can be similar but is vastly different from what otherkin and therians experience during phantom shifts. People experiences PLS have made it known that comparing phantom shifts to the actual loss of a limb or PLS is offensive, so this will not be done again. We recommend using the words phantom shifts, parts or appendages, or specify that appendages such as phantom paws, wings, tails, etc. instead.

I personally take responsibility for having made this comparison in the past, and I'd like to apologize to people who experience PLS or have lost a limb for doing so. It was not my place to make this comparison, as I cannot know what the experiences is actually like.

I urge everyone who may own an Alterhuman platform (whether that be a Discord server or social media platform) to spread the word about this. You are free to use part of this text to explain things.

With all due respect, phantom limbs in this community is just a shorter term for supernumerary phantom limbs, which is also a medically recognized term and which is accurate to what otherkin and therians are referring to when we talk about phantom shifts. We just tend to shorten it to just “phantom limbs” because “supernumerary” is a long word and in context people usually know already that what’s being talked about isn’t a phantom limb caused by amputation.

To say that “phantom limb” is a taboo term but “phantom wing” or “phantom leg”, or even a direct synonym like “phantom appendage” also doesn’t… honestly make a lot of sense to me. It’s the “phantom” part that’s descriptive and the “phantom” part that’s tied to normal phantom limb syndrome, not the “limb” part.

Furthermore, why is it supposedly offensive? You claim the two experiences are “vastly different”; what differences are you referencing exactly? The experience is that of feeling a sensation of having a limb that doesn’t physically exist (and in the case of supernumerary phantom limbs, which never physically existed), sometimes accompanied by pain; what is the supposed “vast difference”?

Or - and I admit I’m jumping the gun here if there actually is a satisfactory answer to that previous question, but I’ve never seen anyone who claims that it’s offensive to use “phantom limbs/shifts” be able to answer it, so I’m going to jump the gun anyway - is this perhaps another case like the debacle around “species dysphoria” as a term, in which someone is getting upset because they think that our experiences aren’t as serious, real, and/or important as theirs, and thus perceives us using terminology which is accurate, but is also shared with another group, as “mockery”?

I'm sick with the flu so my interjection here will be short, but why is it that--as a trans person--my experiences of phantom genitalia aren't considered to be offensive until suddenly they're revealed to be not a one-to-one match with "standard" opposite-sex human genitalia? -chinhands- I'm allowed to call my dick a dick up until people realize I'm alterhuman, is that it? Other non-alterhuman transgender people who experience phantom genitalia that I know offline, and my friends who experience human phantoms due to events which have occurred to their physical human bodies, never have had an issue with the terminology I use to describe my experience to them, and the relevant medical professionals in my life have never had issue with it either, but as soon as it hits the Interwebs it's suddenly, magically, a problem?

It's the "species dysphoria" argument all over again. It's unscientific, ahistorical, and completely, unilaterally fucking offensive and presumptuous.

If an alterhuman amputee directly comes to me to note that several amputees are offended by the fact that we use such a medical term, and that the experience is inherently different than phantom shifts, then I see no reason not to listen to them. It's not the same as dysphoria, because dysphoria is quite literally way more than just gender-related. Phantom limbs are directly from amputees or people who experience Supernumerary phantom limbs.

Just as I cannot directly speak for amputees, non-amputees cannot speak against them either: we do not know what it's like to no longer have a limb.

Why can't we call phantom shifts "phantom limbs"?

I might make a video about this in the future, but I'd like to make you all aware of a recent development in alterhuman terminology. The use of the medical term "phantom limbs" is heavily tied to Phantom Limb Syndrome (PLS) which is a medical condition that affects amputees and those born with congenital differences in anatomy. It can be similar but is vastly different from what otherkin and therians experience during phantom shifts. People experiences PLS have made it known that comparing phantom shifts to the actual loss of a limb or PLS is offensive, so this will not be done again. We recommend using the words phantom shifts, parts or appendages, or specify that appendages such as phantom paws, wings, tails, etc. instead.

I personally take responsibility for having made this comparison in the past, and I'd like to apologize to people who experience PLS or have lost a limb for doing so. It was not my place to make this comparison, as I cannot know what the experiences is actually like.

I urge everyone who may own an Alterhuman platform (whether that be a Discord server or social media platform) to spread the word about this. You are free to use part of this text to explain things.

alternativehuman

I've met people who were both and they've said they're very similar and had no issue with it. Never actually met someone who has. Unless you're an amputee yourself, you don't get to talk over them.