Trans Kinfolk

Welcome to Trans Kinfolk. This blog aims to be a safe and helpful place for those who are trans* and otherkin, therian, or in any way non-human. Please feel free to submit stories or thoughts, and ask questions.

[transkinfolk-blog]

I'm angelkin and identify as genderqueer. Angels were described as sexless (even though they were often referred to with male pronouns), so I'm thinking there's a connection there.

I can see that. Personally I feel a lot of dysphoria over having breasts which relates to both my gender and the fact that birds don't have breasts like mammals do. It's always interesting to see the connections that happen for different people.

-Haven

[transkinfolk-blog]

Reblog of "why the trans VS otherkin debate annoys me"

Something I wrote on Tumblr a little while ago. I tend to get frustrated with both sides of the argument when it invisibilize a category of individuals or another (oh noes I must be appropriating my own self as a trans* therianthrope!1!). I usually don't involve much in debates, among other reasons because I do not have a lot of spoons.

Regarding my privileges/disprivileges, I'm speaking as a therian, mid-class, neuroAtypical + mentally ill (moderate to severe anxiety disorder with bouts of depression), white, pansexual-read-as-gay, post-T/post-op transman living with the wrong names on most of my paper IDs since pretty much 5 or 6 years (I also have an atypical body and people have tagged me as underweight or having an eating disorder when it's not the case). English isn't my native language.

The parallel exists though not perfectly symetrical. But people get obsessed about a hierarchy of oppression and forget something very important. The problem: as someone who is both nonhuman and trans, I am under the impression that so much of this debate seems to be hapenning between people who are either trans, or otherkin - and rarely people who are both and compare the experience. There is, in the end, very little personal accounts of "here is how I personally experience it, both situations". There mostly is theorizing and arguing. And if these folks make comparisons, so be it. For some of us, being trans and being non-human do not compare much. For some others among us, it feels very much the same. So what. Share your personal experience, remember they're that, personal But all of you people who are not both trans and otherkin, be extra careful when attempting to draw parallels, because if you haven't experienced both first hand then you're simply not legitimate if you start making assumptions about how close or different the two things are. I've seen instances of instrumentalization or silencing towards a category of individuals (which one, it depends on the point you're arguing). People, just let it go. I know Tumblr is a very public space and that social justice is Serious Business(tm) here, but seriously; I'd rather spend my energy writing experiential or other personal blurbs, or help build resources or network people and whatnot, instead of wasting my time on debates that have no real outcome other than "being right" and winning points. I'm sure it would be beneficial if more people took the direction of "less arguing, more writing" or anything other than the toxicity that is so common around. And, regarding everything you see on Tumblr and feel the need to argue about: does it really matter? You don't have to fight all the battles.

[swanblood]

Anti-otherkin bullies, stop spreading anti-trans* ideas.

This is something I noticed for some time, and, it’s really started to annoy me and I want to call it out. But, I’m not trans*, so, if this is not my place in some way, or I get something wrong, please, let me know!

I am just very tired of people arguing against otherkin with the argument, “Being transgender is different, because brain scans have proved that trans* people have different brains.” As well as the problem to otherkin, people think this is supporting trans* people, but it’s not. It’s actually the opposite.

When you say this, you say that you don’t support trans* people because of their identities. Their identities mean nothing to you. You support trans* people because of their bodies. Because, in some way, the body says that they are that gender. The brain is part of the body, so, saying that “I accept this person as a woman because they have a ‘woman’s brain’”, is not very different from saying “I accept this person as a woman because they have a vagina”… it’s just moving it to a different part of the body, that needs to exist to “prove” that the person is biologically female in some way.

This is anti-trans*, because you are saying that how the person thinks of their self doesn’t matter. How the person experiences their self doesn’t matter. The only thing that matters is whether there is scientific evidence, or, another way of saying it, their body “matches their gender” in some way. That is cissexism, because it is the belief that gender has to match the physical body in some way to be “valid” and “real”.

This is anti-trans*, because, what if future evidence shows that the studies have flaws? What if we discover a group of trans* people who don’t have a “different brain type” that shows on a scan? (The studies I can see all talk about binary identifying people. Do non-binary trans* people have different brains? If they don’t, do the people who say this think non-binary trans* people are “valid” and “real”?) What if some trans* people show on brain scans and some don’t? The second people, are they “not real”?

To avoid these problems, and to respect trans* people, I believe the only way to do it is to accept people for their identities. Not because “their brains are different”. Not because medical science shows a proof (they were not trans* people before people scanned their brains?) But because they experience being trans*. Because, anything else has a risk of erasing some people who do identify as trans*, because they don’t match the science, and also, because it is not respectful to ignore the experiences that a person is telling you, and say, “I will only believe it when I see medical evidence”.

You think you are “just” doing this to otherkin, but, in a way, when you use this argument you are doing it to trans* people, too. You are saying, “I only believe you because someone who is not you gives you an official right to exist”.

To everyone who uses this argument, I want to ask: if new evidence appears tomorrow that proves all those brain studies are wrong, do you still support trans* people?

If you say “no”, then you don’t really support trans* people, not matter what you say.

If you say “yes”, then, your argument that you support trans* people “because their brains are different” is hypocrisy, and you’re just using it because you don’t have a better way to say, “I think trans* people are valid because that sounds like it makes sense to my brain, but otherkin are not valid because that doesn’t sound like it makes sense”. And you know that’s a bad argument, so you’re covering it up with “but trans* people have SCIENCE on their sides!” But, that doesn’t help trans* people at all, because, it’s not the right reason to support them.

So please, stop using that argument. The reason to support people’s identities is not “because science says there’s a difference”. The reason to support people’s identities is “because they identify that way”. And the time to support their identities is before science says anything… because, a long time before people ever think “we should do a study about this!”, people are struggling to have their identities accepted. And if you really believe that argument, you are just proving, you’re the kind of person who would not have supported trans* people then, when they were most vulnerable. You only were ready to support when the rest of society gives you a way to do it, without looking so “strange”.

And, that is not really support at all.

[transkinfolk-blog]

Though this wasn't written by a trans* person, I do think that it's incredibly accurate, and I think it's something everyone needs to look at.  

And for the record, for all of you people who think you're being trans* allies by making posts like the ones addressed, about how you can "prove" we're trans--you're terrible allies.  This post is how you be an ally; you respect people and their identities because it's their identity and because it's decent, not because research says you have to.  (And if you're trans* and making that argument, well.  It's not impossible for trans* people to be cissexist, y'know.)

-Amara

[soillfightmycorner-deactivated2]

[content: denial of identity, rape, appropriation, bigotry, harassment] on otherkin

i don’t have to understand it. i can think it’s weird. i can not think it’s valid. i can do allll of those things.

respecting otherkin individuals is not about approving of and accepting them as totally in your paradigm.

no one is asking you to do that. i’ve never seen an otherkin ask someone to do that.

i’ve seen a lot of SJW blogs claim that it happens, but it’s usually in the midst of jokes about raping otherkin to cure them and ‘i hope it’s illegal to fuck an otherkin’ (quoted bit by unknowablewoman, a Fat Activist hero who is actually a bigoted piece of shit. tired of people with this much bigotry being heralded as feminist heroes.) and harrassing otherkin for existing, telling them to go kill themselves.

what we’re asking (demanding) for you to do is respect them as individuals. think ‘um, okay’ and dont’ comment on it. don’t harrass them about it. just say ‘okay, good for you.’

this really isn’t asking too much at all.

[dinotrash-deactivated20120823]

lol except that I can call them out on their bullshit because they say terrible hurtful things about phantom limbs and transgenders ???

[bomo]

if a member of any community says something that is hurtful and appropriative and just generally bad then yes, call them out on it. but call that person out, don’t act like that one person is the representative of an entire group of people. because, well, they’re not. what the heck. 

honestly, i’ve seen a lot of discussion within the otherkin community on the subject of, for instance, “phantom limbs” - whether it is appropriative, whether a different term needs to be used (and different ones, such as “invisible limb” and “other-limb” are also being used now), and whether is it a case of - i can’t remember the term, but it starts with s? darn. anyway, it’s about people who feel what seems to be phantom limb pain where there is not only no limb, but no limb ever was. can’t remember the word though.

but it is not simply a case of every single person in the community blindly accepting a term that could be appropriative and applying it to themselves. some do. not all. some do not know better, and only need to realise that a term is appropriative or cruel to stop using it. it’s a mixed bag. i myself have never had any sort of phantom limb sensation - i’ve never lost a limb, nor felt anything monster-related - and so it’s not my place to comment on this, and i am sorry if i have said anything wrong. but i’m sure that some nonhuman-IDing folk have lost limbs before - i’ve heard of one, at least, and that one said that the feelings were similar in their case. not a case study exactly, of course, but still. 

once again, yeah, there are problems in the nonhuman community. there are problems in every community. and you are more than welcome to call someone out on that if you see them being hurtful and appropriative. but those are, for the most part, not problems that every single person in the community has. many people within the community also call out each other on matters of appropriation and similar.

and deer gods, why does this have to be said, but be polite and courteous if you are going to call someone else out if at all possible, and with any luck they will return the favour and be more likely to listen to what you are saying. this is directed towards everyone. be polite when possible. it will help.

also, the original post of this is very good, thank you.

[swanblood]

Hmm, first… (all of this is to candybutthole and people who make similar points, not suncalf, you made a wonderful reply <3)… I don’t have a lot of faith in someone who starts talking about why we need to call otherkin out for these serious and important issues by saying “lol”… and second, “transgenders”? I think that one word is more problematic than anything I ever have heard otherkin say about phantom limbs.

Personally, I’m in pain. I’m in pain right now. It’s hard for me to walk. I have a birding trip in the end of January and I worry about whether I will be able to walk around well. Because I have pain, that started from a phantom pain in my wings and spread down my body. I have seen a doctor, I have seen a physical therapist. I am having blood tests. I’m not sure what is the cause, but it started with that pain.

So, some otherkin do experience the same kind of pain from a limb that is not there and was never there, that people can experience when a limb is removed. This also happens to non-otherkin, it’s called “supernumerary phantom limb” (that’s the word you meant, suncalf ^v^), so, saying “phantom limb” is only used for people with amputations, is wrong. In the medical language, our situation already exists and it is called, phantom limb, and it has been studied.

Honestly, this is what I think: I think the “otherkin are appropriating the language from amputees” is a concern trolling. I have only seen one actual amputee talk about this situation and whether it bothers them, and that person was otherkin also and was defending the use of the word. For everyone else, why are you taking the problem of what language amputees would want as your defense, without asking them if they actually are bothered by it? I think it’s because you simply want to have a way to make us be quiet: “think about the poor amputees!” You are using people’s experiences for your own benefit, without talking to them about it.

And, you are doing it because of a judgment you already make: the judgment that we are not serious. I think that if a human identifying person said that they experience a supernumerary phantom limb, and they have pain from it, there would be no complaining at all. But, because we have a strange identity, the fact is, you don’t believe us. And, all of this is simply because you think it is not possible that we experience this.

But the fact is, some of us do.

So, what is your argument now, about how we are saying terrible hurtful things? What have we done, except to describe an experience? And, is it you who has done the hurtful thing, of assuming that we are ridiculous, judging us, and saying our experiences are imagined?

And, yes, I definitely think otherkin should be called out if we do something appropriative, like anyone else. I also think that a lot of the reasons otherkin are called appropriative, is because we are using serious words to describe our experiences, and people believe our experiences are not serious and believe that what we are doing is making fun of the people with “real, serious” experiences. But, definitely, if it’s not about that: yes, sometimes otherkin need to be called out like anyone.

Just, make sure you are not calling us out just because we are otherkin and you don’t believe us.

[youarenotyou-deactivated2012022]

bolded for emphasis.

people are just looking for an excuse to make fun of those they think are weird/different. but a call out isn’t an excuse to bully someone. 

and it’s not a “call out” to tell someone “i don’t believe you, and your identity is stupid.” it’s being cruel.

[transkinfolk-blog]

Bolded and italized one part, because for the love of all that is good in this world please do not refer to trans* people as transgenders >.< Just no, don’t ever do that okay. Also by that comment I am guessing that the person who said that is not trans, so they may want to take a look at what trans* people have said on the subject matter before attacking otherkin in order to earn ally points ‘cause yanno some trans* people are okay with the comparison.

Oh and ya some of us belong to both groups and would really like to have people realize this. I’m not sure how my own identity can somehow automatically hurt my other identity, and I am getting rather annoyed with the cis people shouting about all otherkin hurting trans* people, when some trans* people like me and the other mods here are also otherkin.

-Haven

[transkinfolk-blog]

Thank You

I'm so happy that you made this blog.  I get so irritated when people say that all otherkin are middle class/rich, white, straight, cis boys; that comparing transgenderism to being otherkin, when imo they're slightly related.  Plus, they don't recognize all the people who're otherkin and trans.  So thank you.

Also, for the record. I'm a black transwomen lesbian faekin.

Glad to be of service. <3 I think, even as quiet as this blog has been, that it was a safe space that needed to happen, especially when it seemed like most of the people telling 'kin not to compare being trans* to being 'kin were cis.  We just wanted to help give a voice to 'kin who were also trans*.

-Amara

[transkinfolk-blog]

I'm so happy that this is a blog that exists. That's all.

Thank you!  I wish it were a little more active, heh, but we do what we can. ^^

-Amara

[thingsilearnedfrom-blog]

TILFT #123:

ALL otherkin compare themselves to trans* people in every way, including exactly the same oppression.

[transkinfolk-blog]

Not even remotely true, to anyone who actually believes this, and if you're following this blog and think this is what we're doing, then you're not paying enough attention. ;)

(For those that don't know, the above blog runs on sarcasm.)

-Anshin

[transkinfolk-blog]

Gender Idetity and Being Non-Human

So one topic that was asked about was how being non-human can affect gender identity. For me this is a complicated topic mostly because my dysphoria has no real distinction so it can be hard for me to tell whether the dysphoria I am experiencing is based on gender of species.

One thing that is clear for me though it that I do not want breasts; as an avian, I would not have breasts in full bird form and in my my more fae form also, for avians there is no need for the body to have breasts; as someone who id's as androgyne breasts make me uncomfortable in respect to how the are gendered and in general for me just do not belong on my body.

My Gender id and my non human-ness tend to work against each other you could say. My avian self wants long nails like claws, but I get dysphoria based on the comments people make about my nails that push me into the box labeled 'women'. This is especially frustrating when in terms of gender I have no body dysphoria around my nails. Another problem I have is when things are tight against my back I sometimes feel weird because; "there are supposed to be wings there so how is something that tight fitting?" this can make wearing a sports bra, which is the closet thing I have to a binder, difficult.

I would say that in terms of interaction of identification itself for me isn't a huge thing. I'm not sure why but for me I just am an androgyne corvid type fae. As always I love to hear other's thoughts on the matter.

-Haven

[transkinfolk-blog]

When you feel like you don't really have a strong tie to masculinity or femininity because your kintype doesn't demonstrate any gender roles that translate into human genders (apart from during mating, that is.)

Erm, was this meant to be a question, or did you mean to send this to littleotherkinthings-andproblems, or...? Because I'm slightly confused.^^;

Though yes, I've known several people who identify with this sentiment.

-Anshin

[littleotherkinthings-andproblems]

[image text: “Otherkin problems: When things that relieve your species dysphoria make your gender dysphoria worse, and vice versa.”]

[transkinfolk-blog]

Do I have the right meaning of dysphoria? Cause I took it to mean that your body is not/doesn't look like what you think it actually is, whether it be in terms of looks/gender/size etc? Or is it something different? Not entirely a trans+otherkin question, apologies, but I don't know who else to ask and Google isn't particulary helpful for those with triggers, sometimes.

It's no problem, google and other sites are pretty bad for unlabeled triggers. You have the right concept there; dysphoria is basically when your body doesn't match what you know it should be, which causes various states of distress for those whom it affects.

Most times when people refer to it they are referring to the effects it has on them. For example for me it manifests as nervousness, anxiety, and confusion because I'm getting two different contrasting messages; what my brain is saying should be there and what my body says is there. That's not the only way it manifests, and if you ask 50 different people how it affect them you will most likely get 50 different responses. Hopefuly this clears up things up for you

-Haven

[lizardtitties]

That "don't compare being trans to being otherkin" anon can go away. >(

I’m also trans and otherkin, as you of course already know. And I do equate them fairly often, because they are pretty friggin’ close.

Stigma!

You can’t tell what someone is by looking at them.

You can’t tell what you are by looking at the mirror.

You have to give a lot of thought to everything regarding your identity in order to realize what you are.

Both trans and otherkin people may get dysphoria. They may also not get dysphoria. Or get it only sometimes. Or, if one is both trans and ‘kin, they may also get dysphoric over one thing.

Incidentally, dysphoria isn’t a word unique to trans experiences. Look it up.

You have to come out over and over again, and you will always encounter people who will tell you that you’re just confused.

I would make this list longer but I’m tired and upset at that anon and don’t particularly want to take over your blog. But augh. Seriously. Both being trans and being otherkin can be (crudely) explained as “having a body and a mind that don’t necessarily match.” I don’t see what the bloody difference is.

(All the love to you, Cydne!)

-Artemis

—-

Thanks :)

[transkinfolk-blog]

This covers a lot of points when people bring up the otherkin appropriation stuff, especially the fact that it's kind of difficult to appropriate a word from yourself, not to mention the fact that dysphoria is seen in a ton of things other than the gender way.

[transkinfolk-blog]

I've met the words avian and therian but I can't find out what them mean exactly... Can you help me ? Also, do you have hypothesises about how otherkins are "created" ?

Avians are otherkin who identify with birds, generally, but I suppose it could also extend to cover other flying kin, like bats.  Therian is a term that generally seems to apply broadly to animal kin, though I personally use it more to describe shapeshifters of a form (as I am--I only have one animal shift form, but I consider that my theriotype, whereas my kintype is Elven).  I've definitely heard people with different opinions on what the word "therian" means, though.  Other mods or followers are welcome to add their definitions, because I'm certainly curious as well!

As for hypotheses, I know why I'm otherkin, but it varies from kin to kin, so you'll end up with a hundred different answers for every hundred kin.  As such, I'm not going to answer, because I'm by no means an authority on how otherkin come to be, and my personal explanation is probably diametrically opposed to someone else's.

-Amara (Anshin)

[transkinfolk-blog]

[Image text: “Otherkin Problems: Species dysphoria if you shave your body hair. Gender dysphoria if you don’t shave.”]

[transkinfolk-blog]

1nvadergir

(Cross-posting from my blog but I think it deserves to go here too.) I guess I should start off by saying I don't know my species. I don't specifically identify with the otherkin community at this stage, but I know I am, in some way, not human. And I feel that it is intrinsically linked to my gender identity. I'm genderfluid, so my gender changes a lot, but most of the time I'm too blurred to tell what gender I am at that specific point in time. As for my species, I have a feeling that it changes depending on gender, which makes the previous statement a complication in trying to figure it out. I think of myself as a cat a lot. I definitely have some connection to cats, and I'm now sure I have cat ears, at least some of the time. But I also think of myself as human sometimes, which, at this stage, I believe correlates to the times I'm most male, though I still need to explore that. And often when I'm agender, I think of myself as an alien. Hairless and sexless. So it's all rather complicated, but there is definitely some link between my gender identity and my species identity.

[transkinfolk-blog]

Since it was our question, thought might as well try and answer: We're a median system composed of two 'kin (and maybe some nebulous other stuff?) who are both (or collectively?) agender. While we don't think the two have a causal relationship, our gender ID and nonhuman ID each influence the way we conceptualise the other. And questioning our gender led to/made us more open to questioning our (non)human-ness, which then reinforced our gender. Also have a cis human headmate for comparison =P

Thanks!  We're working on a write-up about your question right now--it's in our drafts. ^^  We'll definitely add this perspective in as well. <3

-Anshin

[transkinfolk-blog]

I'm sort of wondering what this is. I understand perfectly how a person could be their gender in the wrong body, considering everything else that can go wonky with the body and all, however I don't get how a person could be another species entirely in the wrong body. I guess I'm sort of wondering about the logic behind it.

I'm not sure what sort of logic you're looking for.  My logic for my otherkin identity followed the same sort of general pattern as my logic for my gender identy, albeit it took less time to figure out my kintype, because it's something I've known and been certain about for much, much longer.

With my gender, I went through a process of realising that I didn't fit into category A (that is, in my case, female--the category my birth assignment and society's perception of me).  So I thought I must, therefore, belong to category B (that is, male--I hadn't heard of nonbinary identities yet, since this was my first foray into any sort of discussion about gender and gender identity).  Then, somewhere along the way, I realised that I didn't fit into category B, either, and I therefore must belong to some as-yet undiscovered (to me, anyway) category.  And that's how I came to discover that I belong to category C--being nonbinary.  Specifically, I'm genderfluid.  It was a lot of If-Then sort of trial and error.  

With my otherkin identity, it followed a similar pattern, but started when I was younger.  I knew, I felt in my heart and in my mind, that I was not human.  I understood what it meant to be human--that's what my parents were, and it's what my brother was, so I should have been human too.  But it didn't fit.  I was lucky enough to live in a wooded environment, so I started playing games of pretend.  I would play at being different animals, or different mythological species.  When I started playing at being Elven, something clicked into place.  I found my answer to what I might be if I weren't human, because up until that point, I hadn't known that there was any other plausible answer.

This was something I held onto, but shoved to the back of my mind.  People had to be human, after all--that's what my body said I was, and it's what society said I was.  Then I started questioning my gender, and I started thinking...well, if my body and society can't tell me what my gender is, then why should I believe what they say about my species, too?  If it's possible to find an identity in one category different from what empirical evidence suggested, then why not in another?

Along the way, I found the otherkin community, and I found that there were others who, like me, had found comfort and solace in the idea that they didn't have to be human, that they could be who they were meant to be, regardless of what their bodies or what society told them they were.  To me, that was logical.  To me, it followed from one point to another.

If you're looking more for the "science" to back it up, for the time being, you'll just have to take our experiences as evidence, because there currently is no scientific research to back up what we know to be true about ourselves.  Maybe in the future, science will catch up, and we'll be able to point to articles and studies that "prove" us right.  For the time being, I don't think we need any outside validation or proof--my existence and the fact that I feel right with my current identity is proof enough for me.

That's all it comes down to.  I feel wrong, like I'm lying to myself and like I'm lost, almost, when I try to claim I'm human, or when I try to convince myself it's all in my head.  I've done this with my gender identity as well, and with other truths that I personally know about my world and the way I navigate it.  (Note: I mean "truths" in a very personal self-identification sense here.)  I know that I feel right when I can be honest with myself, and I feel right in the way I currently identify.

If that's not a satisfactory answer, then I'm sorry--I wish I could explain better.  But that's all I've got for now.  Others are, of course, more than welcome to weigh in, as I'm sure our other mods may do as well.  Best wishes.

-Anshin