it's not the hunger revealing đ€Łđ€Łđ€Łđ€Łđ€Łđ€Ł nor the ricochet in the cave đ€Łđ€Łđ€Łđ€Łđ€Ł nor the hand that is healing đ€Łđ€Łđ€Łđ€Łđ€Ł nor the nameless grave đ€Łđ€Łđ€Łđ€Łđ€Ł it's not the room, not beginning đ€Łđ€Łđ€Łđ€Łđ€Ł not the crowd, not winningđ€Łđ€Łđ€Łđ€Łđ€Ł not the planet, not spinningđ€Łđ€Łđ€Łđ€Łđ€Łđ€Ł not a ruse, not heat đ€Łđ€Łđ€Łđ€Łđ€Łđ€Ł not the fire lapping up the creek đ€Łđ€Łđ€Łđ€Łđ€Łđ€Ł not food, not to eat
"We had like a bromance but⊠fine, we were just lesbians. Or at least Faith was. I think Faith probably swang both ways. She had a definite thing for Buffy, no doubt. There were a lot of innuendos and there was a lot of heat there." - Eliza Dushku at Dragon Con Atlanta, 2011
"It made total sense for David to be killed by Michael rather than any other character. Clearly, David didn't care about Star or Max. My feeling was that these two guys, under different circumstances, could've been best friends. David and Michael had a relationship. It wasn't just good and bad. They liked each other." - Kiefer Sutherland, p.186 Lost in the Shadows : The Story of the Lost Boys by Paul Davis
I needed this scene to be wayy longer. Many times Charlie gets hurt he gets snappy and lashes out when others try to comfort him. I don't know if I made this up but I think he feels like he's being smothered and treated like a child when someone well-meaning like Don, Larry, or Amita tries to console him. Colby literally gives him space by taking him up to the overlook, doesn't crowd him, doesn't ask if he's ok, but tells him about how he felt on the freighter and just says that it can help to say what happened out loud, but doesn't force Charlie to do it.
Don is number one on Meganâs speedial. I know this due to the fact that theyâre coworkers, but goddamn, it still makes my heart hurt every time. For better or for worse, the VCS is her family.
Donâs taking a very dark road this episode. Heâs yelling at everyone, threatening the lives of witnesses, and allowing the torture of prisoners. Heâs aware of it, but heâs still actively chosing it. Itâs interesting to watch.
Fret not, Iâm not letting Ian off the hook for this. Ian is definitely a man whoâs extremely comfortable with police brutality. And this is still Ken, so this is always as he was intended to be written. The fact that we also never discuss this again is⊠an interesting choice. And by âinteresting,â I mean gross.
Hey, is anyone gonna talk about how torture doesnât actually work in real life? No? Too much of a copaganda show? Got it.
Larryâs version of panic is very interesting! Itâs restrained and logical, near cold. Sanzel definitely understands these characters.
Iâm of two minds about the fact that Megan was kidnapped. One on hand, I appreciate that Megan is the one who has extended scenes with Crystal; these conversations are definitely ones that she should have, as sheâs A. someone who could relate to Crystal by having also ran away from home at an early age, and B. a woman. I applaud this! However, it does have a slightly bitter taste in my mouth knowing that Amita, our only other leading lady, will later be kidnapped in season 5. I recognize not ALL of the characters who have been kidnapped are women (off the top of my head, Colby), but itâs still weird both of the leading women have done this plot line.
Is there also a part of me a little upset we never had a plot where Charlie was kidnapped? Maybe a little, yeah. If Don is behaving like this over a teammember, can you imagine if his brother was taken? I guess thatâs what fanfiction.net is for...
IAN: Are you following any of this?
COLBY: Just nod your head and wait for the punchline.
Iâve referenced this quote from Colby a lot, not because I think itâs indicative of his character on a surface level, but on a meta level. I donât believe Colby actually finds Charlieâs explanations and presentations that annoying (at least, not since âDouble Downâ), based on the way he pays close attention when Charlie talks, the fact that Charlie later describes Colby as âthinking like a mathematicianâ, and⊠whatever the hell kinda homoerotic shit that was going on when he visited Charlieâs office and took that red gumball lol. I think Colbyâs trying to look cool in front of Ian, who we know from âToxinâ he has a work crush on.
Ian was really going to gamble with Meganâs life to get a shot at apprehending Crystal a little sooner. Good god, he/Ken is NOT making him very likeable today!
The scenes with Megan in the hospital are so ridiculously sweet! Colbyâs giant grin, David petting her hair, the way her eyes light up when she realizes Charlie also helped find her⊠Goddamn, I think Iâm gonna cry!
I do appreciate Larry taking the time to apologize to David for calling him âartless.â David probably wouldâve forgiven him without discussing it, but itâs a good character moment for both of them!
12. Another example of this show having underrated little details: Larry brought Megan an assortment of all-white flowers <3
13. Iâm glad Don is showing some guilt around his actions. I suppose his therapy arc is supposed to be how the story addresses it, but Iâm still not sure how I feel about that. I suppose weâll wait and see.
14. Larry wheeling Megan around the hospital is great comedic fodder! Iâm imagining a sitcom version of this episode where Larry has to do shenanigans to help break her out.
15. Charlie is getting WAYYY too up in Amitaâs space in this office scene. I need him to make room for Jesus! Or⊠whatever the Jewish and Hindu equivalent terms would be.
16. I do have to admit, the older I get, the more I feel a bit bad for Crystal and Buck. Not a crazy amount, they have a blatant disregard for human life, after all. But it is saddening to watch a sexual abuse survivor lose her child for the second time in her life, then die by suicide, while knowing a survivor of abuse is preyed upon by an adult (who was supposed to be his teacher) and will now spend the rest of his life in prison. Iâm sure thereâs an argument to be made that Buckâs path would always go down a route similar to this, but maybe Crystalâs life wouldâve been different if her statutory rapist never existed.
17. That car explosion was great! That piece of debris went vertical then fell to earth with perfect comedic timing!
18. LARRY: I should shut up, shouldnât I?
MEGAN: No. You should kiss me now.
I WANT WHAT THEY HAVE!!
19. The banter between Charlie, Don, and Alan NEVER disappoints. Specifically Don and Charlie fighting over the video game controls like theyâre 4 and 9 again. Judd Hirschâs like delivery on âYouâre playing golf!â is EXTREMELY dad energy!
20. Alan mentions he wants to add a private staircase to his room. Is that possible on historically-protected homes? I mean, they had to use specific stains on the shutters, surely a new staircase would be against the rules?
Commentary with Lou Diamond Phillips (Ian Edgerton), Ken Sanzel (writer), and David W. Zucker (executive producer)
Lots of conversation between Ken and Lou about Ian. Mostly what we already know: they worked together on Lone Hero, Ken expanded Ianâs character and skills to bring him back, etc.
Diane Farr was originally supposed to be in this commentary, but she was very close to delivering her baby, so she was unable to attend. Letâs all breathe a sigh of relief that they did the bare minimum in at least trying to include a woman.
Lou brought up Ian and Meganâs conversation in âSpreeâ, and read those conversations as Ian being genuinely concerned for her. It read a slightly condescending to me, but Ian does seem pretty emotionally-closed off, so maybe this is what concern looks like coming out of canon!Ian.
Lou also read Ianâs concern for Megan as an opening for romantic interest between the two. He was still thought that after spending three (3) episodes of television gazing lovingly at Charlie. God, homophobia is a hell of a drug.
Lou spends a not-insignificant amount of time praising David K for his ability to deliver the math expositional dialogue. But Ianâs into Megan. RiiiiiighhtttttâŠ.
Praise for all of the cast is so nice to hear, but we got some for Diane and Kim Dickens in particular, and they definitely deserve it!
âŠDid I just hear 3 cishet dudes in 2006 drop âasexualâ and âpansexualâ in a sentence?
I did just hear 3 cishet dudes in 2006 drop âasexualâ and âpansexualâ in a sentence. I feel like Iâve left my body.
For context, Lou was discussing whether or not Ian is ace. My textposts are becoming real.
There was a cut line of Ianâs. He was asked if he wanted to check on Megan in the hospital, and he replied âIâll send flowers.â This was another line that was designed to look callous, but Lou states that Ian felt as though he was becoming too emotionally involved and it was distracting him from the case. Interesting!
Lou still wants to go the Craftsman and do a scene with Judd. Zucker promises that will be season 4! This fell through, as season 4 is the only season Ian doesnât appear in.
Lou jokes that Ian shouldâve been the secret third Eppes brother. So very grateful that this was just a joke.
Lou worked with Navi previously? Huh! Small world!
It was 113 degrees Fahrenheit during the roadblock standoff scene. Whew! And I thought Southeastern summers were hot!
Honestly, I donât have very much to complain about for these two episodes! Theyâre well written, well acted, well paced, and engaging. The only time Iâm disengaged is due to my own preferences of ships, so I canât hold that against the episodes. If I had a top ten list, these two are definitely up there!
As for @auburnlaughter's other note: yes, the return to Buck in "Arrow of Time", if I'm not mistaken! I'm interested to see how that plays out. We'll definitely talk more about it then.
@mave000 has some thoughts to share!
I like that you called characters out on stuff here, but also gave them grace, in a way. Like with Ian. Heâs immensely morally gray here. But you let him be responsible for his actions instead of saying Don is the only one to blame and who should feel bad here, as Iâve seen many do, unfortunately. Yes, Don definitely is at least partially responsible. But it was still Ian doing the torturing. Also, Ian is a grown man and not dependent on Don. He could have refused to do anything he didnât want to do/agree with. But you also gave them room to redeem themselves. Like, for example youâll wait and see what Donâs therapy arc will do.
[...]
Something I see a lot is people behaving like Don shooting Crystal was wrong (I think itâs even in the show). And Iâm like, why? She was driving at them in a car full of explosive stuff and clearly intending this as a suicidal move. Only because Ian hesitated/wasnât as quick, doesnât mean Don was wrong to shoot her. If she wasnât stopped, she would have killed and/or severely hurt everyone on that road. Or maybe Iâm missing something. Of course killing is bad, but I donât see how he could have avoided it except maybe hoping that Ian will do the job for him. Like, people say he should have waited for Ian to shoot her, but every second was putting her and the ammunition closer to the other people. So, I would say time was of the essence. And also, whatâs the difference between Don shooting her and Ian doing the same thing? Like, nobody is saying Ian would have been wrong for shooting her.
Interesting point! If I may speculate, I do wonder if the audience blames Don more because the show focuses on Don. Ian is a side character who doesn't arc, and basically acts as a plot device, while Don is a main character who does evolve, so we spend more time watching him wrestle with his choices. Thus, the audience feels it can disregard Ian's actions because he's there just to further another character's arc (Charlie in SZ, Megan in Spree, Don here). Meanwhile, the audience has a bigger reaction around Don's choices because he's a main character.
The question I wanna know the answer to is: why is killing Crystal any different than any other shooting of a suspect? The VCS shoots randos in pursuits all the time. Why is Crystal so special? Two theories. 1. She's a character we've spent time with, we've had multiple scenes setting up her backstory, and watching her emotional progression. Thus, the death of a character like that is more impactful to the audience than if Colby shoots Gangster #3 in a firefight. And 2. we're setting up Don's therapy arc, and we need something to get his ass on the couch. Don's too macho to go to therapy on his own, so he needs to be forced; the only way to force him is his job, but why would the FBI force him to go to therapy? Uhhhhhh, maybe he kills someone? Yeah, yeah, write that down, write that down!
I think the answer to all of our questions stems from the same source: the show does something for the sake of a character/plot (today it's Don), and the audience feels the way the show wants them to feel. Which, on one hand, is the entire point of film and TV, to make the viewer experience an emotion, so, success! On the other hand, audience members who engage in complete surface-level consumption are my mortal enemies who will die horribly by my blade.
mave000: Very true, I think thatâs probably it, main character vs recurring character. Maybe itâs also that people love the idea of Ian, this Rambo/Superman like character that comes in to solve problems and look/be cool. So of course he wouldnât care about a lot of stuff and the audience doesnât expect (or really want) him to. Like, heâs there to do what âneeds to be doneâ and thatâs it. Itâs super unsatisfying for a fan, but you are right, sometimes you just have to accept a show for what it is.
Emphasis mine, but this is probably the big point in all of this: I imagine the writing team wasn't predicting that a group of 20-40 year old gays on tumblr.com would over-analyze their work 20 years later. They were thinking about reactions of the senior crowd who left CBS on to the TV all day, and maybe the mathematicians at CalTech. And, of course, studio execs at CBS. We might be making a mountain out of a mole hill on that one.
Mave: Also, great point on why we and the characters care about Crystalâs death at all. On the one hand, it would be emotionally impossible to care about every death on a show. On the other hand, why do there need to be so many deaths at all? Like, in the early bank robbery episode in season one, several people die in the shooting at the start, I believe. But we/Don et al only care about his coworker. Totally understandable why he cares about his coworker. But nobody even blinks an eye at the dead bank robber. Like, why do action scenes need bodies nobody cares about ever again anyway? In that way, copaganda in a lot of shows has kind of normalized police shootings with dead perps at the end. And people actually rooting for that outcome (at least in fiction). I really always loved watching all these procedurals growing up (also, Iâm not from the US and it was all kinda fantasy to me), but you cannot think deeply about most of them. Things will start falling apart.
This comes back to the "criminals aren't humans in the eyes of the police state" thing we discussed on the SCTN for "The O.G." The VCS doesn't care if they kill the banker robbers because, hey, they decided to commit a crime, they've signed away their rights at being a person, this is on them! Even though we Woke Liberal Snowflakes (/sar) know that people are still people even if they do bad things, because we have working brains. But for the police state to continue operating, it needs to trick the populace into thinking otherwise. And it has! This is one of the reasons I continue with SCTN: procedurals like NUMB3RS perpetuate the copaganda, and it sucks, but it also has other artistic value, and we can hold space for both, but we have to verbalize that. Art, like the humans that make it, contain multitudes.
A revelation: @treading---lightly is LDPAnon! Some Hannah Montana/Miley Cyrus shit going on!
....And much like that, it was probably really obvious they were the same person based on Treading's blog. Huh. I owe Lois Lane an apology.
Treading: Re: the torture. As we know, torture doesnât work, but itâs portrayed as an actual way to get real, viable information here. Fully bullshit but also par for the course with copaganda, imo. HOWEVER. Focusing on Donâs regret really pushes my limit because itâs trying to play both sides. Torture is badâŠbecause it makes the enactors of state violence feel sad sometimes??? And they can get therapy to move past it and accept that sometimes they have to torture people a little for the greater good??? I love Don as a character and Robâs performance but this really grinds my gears.
Again, pure copaganda. The perpetrators of police violence are human people who sometimes to do bad things for the right reasons and get sympathy; the victims of police violence are animals that cannot be reasoned with and can only be controlled through pain and fear and death. DI-GUST-TING!!!! Fucking hate it in this country!!!
Treading: Ian! Hereâs where my cognitive dissonance says yeah itâs fine weâre watching copaganda and having a great time with it. I love his performance in many, many ways, including that it introduced teenage Treading to LDP (Iâm Mexican American, but somehow my first LDP exposure was this and not La Bamba. This is my Truth). Heâs perpetually interesting to me. His earlier conversations with Megan + hospital flower line that was cut, I think it shows Ian as someone who really does want to connect with people, and genuinely enjoys the time he spends with the VCS/Eppes brothers, but also always holds himself at a distance because he thinks those connections will lead to him messing up on the job. So heâs always pushing and pulling at his own boundaries and setting up walls if he thinks heâs getting too involved emotionally.
Not La Bamba NOR Stand and Deliver? Crazy!
I think you've summarized Ian and LDP's performance perfectly. From the way LDP and Sanzel spoke, this is the exact thought process behind Ian. I crown thee Numb3rs tumblr (numbl3r? numblrs?)'s Ian Edgerton Expert!
Treading: Personally, I read him as possibly aroace, possibly pan, or a comboâŠwhatever he is, heâs coming at it in an intellectualizing/analytical way. Heâs someone who could enjoy sex and romantic relationships, and maybe on some level actively wants them, but prioritizes his work and sees these as liabilities so heâll always pull back and not let the relationship go too far (like we see with Nikki later on). So imo he IS being romantic/flirty with Charlie, but wonât actually let it go anywhere because of how messy it could get with the Eppes/VCS. This also seems to more or less line up with LDPâs read of Ian, which makes me happy!
Maybe this is why most of us fans are obsessed with Ian. He's the one that might actually be played as queer.
Treading: Re (9), gambling with Meganâs life - I do find that scene a bit contrived because I feel like moving Megan (without a stretcher!) vs waiting for EMTs is not the safest move anyway, which makes me think Ian is fine to take the car and head after Crystal. But then, thatâs maybe an Ian way of looking at it vs the team focusing fully on Megan in the moment, regardless of it actually makes sense to move her or not.
That is a fair point! I think this might be a writing team decision - if Ian catches up with Crystal now, what about the rest of the episode where they track down Crystal's daughter and have the standoff? It's easier to write that in if Ian is forced to stay.
Navi being in 24 makes sense! It was one of those shows that every actor of that caliber was making cameos in during the '00s.
Finally, @rattboxwarriorr, thank you for your kind words! More than likely, between me and Treading, we will hit every Ian episode lol. Ian really did make a big impression for only being in 9 episodes!
Ooh, "doylist" and "watsonian" are terms I haven't heard in a while! Most modern fandoms tend to be extremely watsonian in their discussions, which it's great to see meta analyses again! But it can lead to Johnlock Conspiracy levels of mass delusions (I was a TJLCer, I can say that). The Pitt fandom almost has a good balance of the two, but it's gotten lost in the discourse. It's still tough being a fan.
Also, I apologize if I've given anyone the impression otherwise, but everyone is more than welcome to reblog with their thoughts if replies are too restrictive! Reblogs make this site what it is, so I'm more than happy to reblog back and forth as well!
why is killing Crystal any different than any other shooting of a suspect?
may I also offer: Crystal is a white woman, and a white woman from a âgoodâ family, who had a respectable middle class job at that. Not your âtypicalâ expendable criminal. đ
Not La Bamba NOR Stand and Deliver? Crazy!
oh wait, on reflection, I did see Stand and Deliver in a high school math class. This is also where I first saw Numb3rs - not sure which came first, but Numb3rs caught my attention more somehow. We also watched Kangaroo Jack in geography class. My school wasâŠnot great.
I crown thee Numb3rs tumblr (numbl3r? numblrs?)'s Ian Edgerton Expert!
Thank you, this is the highest honor Iâve received! I proudly accept my crown.
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