been puzzling for a while about Tyrion's comment: "in former days, she had run Lord Renly's household in the city, which had given her a deal of practice at being blind, deaf, and mute." This framing of Renly is much more scandalous than the way other characters who know about his sexual preferences refer to it, why?
I think it's hard to measure "scandalousness" of comments compared to what other characters say. Stannis's comment about Margaery being likely to die a virgin in Renly's bed is snide; Jaime's threat to shove Loras's sword somewhere Renly never found is crude. There's homophobia underlying all of it.
Now, it isn't clear from this quote whether Renly's seeing multiple partners, Loras repeatedly, or casual partners/shorter relationships prior to a longer-term relationship with Loras. But that's kind of a moot point. The homophobia here is in the fact that Renly's same-sex relationship, any same-sex sexual relationship, is inherently scandalous to the people of Westeros in a way that heterosexual sexual relationships aren't. If these were women going in and out of Renly's house and spending time there, nobody would bat an eye. A servant wouldn't need practice at being blind, deaf, and mute.
And that's all taking place in the capital of Westeros while Renly's at court - not as dangerous as Cersei and Jaime's relationship, but certainly not risk-free for Renly's political career either. The scandal potential is a click or two above normal, even if the reason for that is fundamentally homophobic.
Do you think Cersei was serious when she told Jaime to kill Arya? Even for her it’s an incredibly stupid idea, it would mean Jaime loses his head and Tywin starts a war he would lose.
Two issues.
One, did Cersei think through the risks all the way? I doubt it. She's almost as much of a hothead as Jaime in her way.
Two, if she did think through the risks, did she believe these would be the consequences? I also doubt that. As is pretty common for Cersei, it's misogyny and empathy issues. Cersei doesn't see much value in Arya, a little girl who's not even conventionally pretty, and therefore struggles to understand why anyone else would value Arya. Cersei's experience of father-daughter relationships is her own father valuing her not for who she was but what she could do for him politically, and so she struggles to understand that Arya's father might love Arya just because she's Arya, and politics doesn't enter into it.
Then she compares the lack of value she sees in Arya and goes "but I'm the queen." A bit of a mental hurdle.
So yes, I think she was serious. Not risk-aware. But serious.
Do you think Jaime will receive genuine fair justice for his crimes not what happened when he was the Brave Companions captive or whatever Stoneheart and the Brotherhood do to him?
Nope. Shocking: guy who system is set up to benefit, benefits from system.
Seriously, amongst many other things, Jaime ordered a whole bunch of Stark household members killed, in the middle of the street, in the middle of the capital, for no reason but that they were employed by a guy Jaime had a grievance with, when Jaime had the option of taking that grievance up in ways that did not involve murdering a bunch of people in the street. The king's response was basically to roll his eyes and insist Ned get over it. Three Stark guards were murdered. Five more Lannister guards were killed as the Stark party defended itself. This incident Jaime started, that resulted in the murders of three people and the unnecessary-to-Jaime deaths of five of his own, is utterly lost in other events by the time we get to the end of AGoT.
There is nothing worth calling a 'justice system' in evidence.
This sort of failure is what drives actions like Lady Stoneheart's. Like some of Doran Martell's, too. That is the root cause, and Lady Stoneheart and Doran's agenda are secondary outgrowths of a deeper problem. What they're doing is not justice as the author's society is likely to see it - it creates a whole bunch of new and unrelated victims and starts the whole cycle over, things most modern justice systems place a high value on trying to prevent - but it's also the closest approximation the characters are ever likely to get. Making their own justice is preferable to them compared to standing back and going "guess I'm fucked then." You can see why. GRRM is good at making the reader feel why.
Equally, however, GRRM is good at showing through Jaime's narration that by the time AFFC comes around, he is trying to change, and that in spite of high personal costs. He might not be very good at it, there's inevitable rough spots and backsliding, and he's still neck-deep in a political system that encourages more and worse actions rather than supporting the better angels of Jaime's nature, but he's making an attempt. Jaime of AFFC is not pushing Bran out a window.
GRRM wants you to see the reality of both Jaime's personal development and the harms Catelyn's suffered. He has recreated in fiction some of the reasons why justice is depicted with a balancing set of scales. What does justice look like? How can justice be achieved?
Not everyone's going to come down in the same place on this, but that's not the point of the work. The idea is for the reader to think about it.
Are there any scenes in the books you would enjoy seeing from a different POV (like how we get both sides of the Sam/Jon discussion)?
Catelyn and Ned's discussion in Catelyn II AGoT - the one where he agrees to take the Handship. Would have loved to see what Ned thought in real time about that particular key decision. Alas, it would have given away a huge chunk of plot.
Hello! Do you think that Jon would have handled differently sending Sam to Oldtown if he understood the context of why that was so traumatic for him? I wonder if he would have still sent him anyway but maybe less brusquely.
So here's the progression from Jon's PoV. Jon doesn't start the conversation brusquely and gets thrown for a loop (quotes from Jon II ADWD unless marked otherwise):
This is not going as I had hoped. He had known Gilly would be hard, but he had assumed Sam would be glad to trade the dangers of the Wall for the warmth of Oldtown.
The change in tack is a result of Jon quickly coming to understand that he's dealing with trauma rather than malingering. Before the coldest part of his speech:
Kill the boy, Jon thought. The boy in you, and the one in him. Kill the both of them, you bloody bastard.
Jon knows enough context to realise that whatever the shock to Jon personally, this is actually difficult for Sam - and because Westeros sucks, he thinks the appropriate way to deal with trauma is a verbal kick in the rear. It's not sensitive, it's not trauma-informed, but it's the tool Jon's culture has given to him. It hurts Jon too not to approach this with compassion and patience. It hurts him because he knows that this hurts Sam.
And so Jon's little speech to Sam finishes with this:
"And here's another order. From this day forth, you will not call yourself a craven. You've faced more things this past year than most men face in a lifetime. You can face the Citadel, but you'll face it as a Sworn Brother of the Night's Watch. I can't command you to be brave, but I can command you to hide your fears."
Jon does not want to hurt Sam. On the contrary, Jon wants to see Sam recover from the hurts Sam's father inflicted on him. Jon has no idea how to do this while also appropriately handling Sam's trauma, and that's how we end up with Jon acting like, and Sam perceiving, this -
Jon, he'd said, but Jon was gone. It was Lord Snow who faced him now, grey eyes as hard as ice.
Sam I, AFFC
-instead of a concerned friend.
It's a long way to say yes, Jon would have sent Sam, and he would have been exactly as brusque. As with a lot of other things, Jon is way out in front of a lot of Westeros in recognising Sam's ongoing trauma even when it seems irrational to an outside observer. In the sort of small scale tragedy all over this series, Jon has even less of an idea how to handle it than he does the impending zombie invasion.
How is Littlefinger meant to put Sansa on the Iron Throne? I can see her as QitN but the Iron Throne? Is he that confident that he can get the Vale and Riverlands behind Sansa in addition to the North, and would succeed against the Reach/Westerlands/Done/Iron islands/Stormlands? That seems overly ambitious to me, even for Littlefinger.
For context, here's the quote of what I said:
Littlefinger wants to set Sansa up as a queen (which will almost certainly entail a change in management on the Iron Throne, one way or another).
I think Littlefinger intends to start by setting Sansa up as Queen in the North (and of the Riverlands and Vale). But this is going to require what I described as a "change in management" - a change to either the monarch or the forces controlling that monarch - on the Iron Throne because the Lannister-led regime we've seen to this point isn't going to recognise or treat with an independent North/Riverlands/Vale. Tyrion didn't negotiate in good faith, Tywin didn't negotiate in good faith, and while Cersei's running things, she's not going to negotiate in good faith. Kevan? Maybe, but he is very much Tywin lite. The Tyrells? More likely. Whoever Varys puts on the throne? Littlefinger doesn't mind gambling.
That's important because no matter how things shake out, a) Littlefinger's going to need a longer period of breathing room at some point, time for the new independent North to rest, rebuild, and develop its economy for future action, and b) legitimacy is important in dealing with other major parties - like, for example, the Iron Bank (who start to treat with Stannis as a legitimate claimant to the throne rather than a rebel, in a major blow to Cersei). Even a formal truce helps with supporting that claim to independence and legitimate rule. Get that truce from the Iron Throne? Littlefinger then spends the entire duration pointing it out to all and sundry Essosi contacts that they're not pretenders or dreamers or likely to be crushed as soon as summer comes around, they're the real deal. Littlefinger knows full well that you can tell a story hard enough that it becomes a political reality.
And the scale of these objectives goes to the longer term issue: I cannot see Littlefinger saying to himself "you know what, I'm happy with half the continent." Littlefinger started as a customs officer and rose to a position to ruin a realm. He can play a long game to get the other half of Westeros too.
Hello! Why do you think neither Varys or Littlefinger tried to off the other one? Both know the other one is scheming, dangerous, intelligent and not their friend. Why not remove such an annoying unknown from the game? Do they just enjoy each other? Are we actually missing a whole subplot of them trying increasingly fancy ways to murder the other?
As far as I can tell, until roughly ASoS, their immediate objectives were well aligned.
This is running on the reveals in AFFC and ADWD that Varys wants to put Aegon on the throne, while Littlefinger wants to set Sansa up as a queen (which will almost certainly entail a change in management on the Iron Throne, one way or another).*
These goals mean that both Varys and Littlefinger need more or less the same things from the current regime: they need to keep it in place, weak, and unpopular. They have different timelines, but that's about it, and both can work with changes in that timeline. And keeping a realm so precariously balanced is a big job! Varys' plans are immeasurably helped by the underlying financial instability Littlefinger's created for the crown; Varys' invasion plans are giving Littlefinger an opening of his own to act. They each piggyback off the chaos the other sows.
AGoT gives us the best views of this. We see Littlefinger lie about the owner of the knife used in the attempt on Bran's life, and Varys, who knows the truth, says nothing. It might not be how he'd have done it, but it suits him just fine to have the Starks pitted against the Lannisters. Littlefinger in turn quite likely used the opportunity Varys provided him in the form of Ned's public confession to turn mercy into the murder of the man who married Littlefinger's crush.
They're not allies. They can never be allies. Their ultimate objectives are too deeply divided for that. But for most of the series thus far and its immediate prelude, Varys and Littlefinger were more useful to each other alive. They're also both arrogant enough to think they can deal with the other when the time comes - deeply ironic for men who both take advantage of being underestimated.
Damned if I don't enjoy the mental image of Varys in the Red Keep's tunnels sawing out the floor beneath Littlefinger though.
*No, this cannot have been Littlefinger's plan right from the start. Sansa's involvement was probably first pencilled in during AGoT. What was Littlefinger planning to do before then? No idea. Ruin the economy out of spite? Possible. Destroy the Starks and Tullys? Highly likely.
I think Robert loved Jon Arryn too. But that's it.
Robert is the story's first notable rejection of the idea that love alone can fix emotional problems. Robert himself thought love would fix his personal issues, fixating on Lyanna as the representation of his ideal wife and ideal life - and never truly appreciating that he already had people who loved him and were trying to do the right thing by him. And, consequently, that the problem was him.
Robert's big fatal flaw is laziness (not his only flaw, of course, just the specific one that dooms him). He was not willing to commit to loving other people as a practice and a discipline. Easier to pine over what's already lost than to try and build something new. Easier to reminisce with Ned over Lyanna than it was to face up to his responsibilities for Ned's sake (and the realm's sake). Robert did not want to do the work of reciprocating.
Ned's love for Robert was as real and selfless as you can get. (And no less for being platonic!) What he wanted from that relationship was for Robert to be the best version of Robert. Nothing more. But also nothing less.
Robert did not see the value of that love and wasn't willing to put in the effort to return it in kind. The feelings were there, but the commitment wasn't. If you only get out of a relationship what you put in... well, Robert wasn't putting in anything. Little wonder he wasn't getting the returns he wanted.
This one's a long recap since the chapter is a veritable grab bag of issues. The sheer scope of what this chapter does is kind of amazing.
The story so far…
Tyrion is settling into his new job as Master of Coin and his married life with Sansa. He’d probably rather be doing anything else, except maybe planning for that upcoming royal wedding.
Child Abuse
Our chapter begins with Tyrion really not having a great day of it. His job’s miserable. His home life is worse. This is because he’s been married to a child hostage bride, and shocker of shockers, she’s not happy about it.
Sansa’s misery was deepening every day. Tyrion would gladly have broken through her courtesy to give her what solace he might, but it was no good. No words would ever make him fair in her eyes. Or any less a Lannister. This was the wife they had given him, for all the rest of his life, and she hated him.
And yeah, this is creepy as fuck, especially when it’s followed by Tyrion’s blunt internal monologue: I want her.
Let’s break this down a bit because there’s a lot going on here.
First, this is a passage about the patriarchy hurting men too. What Tyrion wants is not Sansa in particular - he barely mentions anything about her specifically in that paragraph - but emotional intimacy and romantic love. Sansa just so happens to be the person that Tyrion’s father has handed off to him and Tyrion’s society says is the proper outlet for romantic feelings. And she’s a twelve-year-old hostage, so Tyrion’s running up hard against the fact that he’s not going to get that romantic connection from her.
Second, we cannot have a paragraph about the patriarchy hurting men without the spectre of the patriarchy hurting women in the background. Even as the focus of this bit right here is the effect on Tyrion, critical readers are going to go “well yeah, she’s a twelve-year-old hostage, Tyrion doesn’t deserve those feelings from her and was never entitled to them in the best case scenario.” Critical readers are going to note the fact that Sansa has been treated like an object and that Tyrion doesn’t seem to bat an eye at the fact that Sansa is a literal child. Our PoV character has thoroughly normalised the sexualisation of a pre-teen girl and that is extremely goddamned uncomfortable.
Third, there’s the extent to which ableism comes into play. We can see from the “or any less a Lannister” comment that Tyrion’s intellectually aware of the fact that there’s solid reason for Sansa not to be mad keen on marrying into his family even if he was able-bodied. But his attractiveness is his first thought, and it’s his attractiveness he comes back to, bitterly and ironically wishing to be “as tall as Jaime and as strong as Ser Gregor the Mountain too”. I think it’s fair to say that this is the part that Tyrion really feels. Unlike being a Lannister, his disability is something Tyrion actually hates and would change if he could.
Tyrion’s relationship with Sansa comes back at the very end of the chapter, as Tywin admonishes Tyrion for not raping her. Tyrion protests that Sansa is too young (which she is!). There is absolutely no compassion in Tywin’s reply.
“She is old enough to be Lady of Winterfell once her brother is dead. Claim her maidenhood and you will be one step closer to claiming the north. Get her with child, and the prize is all but won. Do I need to remind you that a marriage that has not been consummated can be set aside?”
Aside from being straight repulsive, a) Tywin’s referring to once Robb is dead, as though it were an inevitability, and b) this is here to set up the fact that annulments are available in Westeros, and might be available in Sansa’s specific case.
Fraud
So like I mentioned above, Tyrion’s job is miserable. The other thing going into Tyrion’s ‘black mood’ is the state of the city. Including the bits just outside of it, which Tyrion goes to see in person. Nothing but “mud and ashes and bits of burned bone.” Before the Battle of the Blackwater it was a commercial centre, one of the biggest ports in Westeros, so it’s going to need to be rebuilt. Which means money. Money that the new Master of Coin will have to find someway, somehow. Tyrion’s due to talk to the guild masters.
The people of King’s Landing are none too friendly to Tyrion as he makes this in-person inspection. Tyrion needs Bronn’s protection here, and Tyrion’s mixed attitudes to the people in return is on full display.
“Remind me to tell Ser Addam to post some gold cloaks here,” he told Bronn as they rode between two of the trebuchets. “Some fool boy’s like to fall off and break his back.” There was a shout from above, and a clod of manure exploded on the ground a foot in front of him. Tyrion’s mare reared and almost threw him. “On second thoughts,” he said when he had the horse in hand, “let the poxy brats splatter on the cobbles like overripe melons.”
It’s not that Tyrion’s wrong to be upset. He wasn’t at fault for the battle itself. In this particular incident, potentially being thrown from his horse is dangerous. But instead of blaming those specific children throwing dung at him, Tyrion’s immediately like “no public safety measures for you as a class.” An inherently mixed character, is Tyrion: instinctive compassion for children, which he is capable of withdrawing immediately when his pride is stung.
The results of the field trip are discussed with Tywin later on in the chapter, but I’ll deal with them here. Tyrion ends up with a whole long list of infrastructure repairs need doing. Tywin says:
“You will find whatever gold is required.”
Tyrion pushes back on the idea that money grows on trees, with a second list of the bills the crown needs to pay (seventy-seven bloody courses! A thousand guests!) and though he accept Tywin’s argument that extravagance has its uses, he suggests that if it’s his father’s political needs they’re catering to, the money should come from Tywin. Tywin says:
“Don’t be absurd.”
It turns out that Tywin literally only looked at the ‘income’ section of the balance sheet. Not the expenses. All he knows about the crown’s finances is important number go up. Behind all this is what Tyrion points out: the expenses are up as well, and it’s a real struggle to keep up with the usury on various loans. Why were those loans taken out? How was the usury set? Who knows these things! (Petyr Baelish knows.) And more to the point, Tywin Lannister dos not care.
“I will have the wedding and the waterfront. If you cannot pay for them, say so, and I will find a master of coin who can.”
The prospect of being sacked is too much for Tyrion, and he promises to find the money somehow. The money’s not there to find, though, and Tyrion VI will imply strongly that it was stolen long ago. But that’s a story for Tyrion VI, in conjunction with Eddard IV AGoT - something for readers to piece together bit by bit.
Extortion
Tyrion’s not in town just to check out the harbour. As he rides through the city he starts keeping a closer lookout for Varys’ people. This is because Tyrion’s main purpose in coming down here is some surreptitious business of his own. He heads into a “dismal” wine sink, empty at the morning hour, and goes into a back room where Symon Silver Tongue, bard, is waiting for a payment of thirty dragons.
A fortune, for a man like him.
By implication, fairly small potatoes to Tyrion.
But what’s this about anyway? Symon isn’t exactly subtle in introducing it.
“My sweet lady Shae tells me you are newly wed. Would that you had sent for me earlier. I should have been honoured to sing at your feet.”
“The last thing my wide needs is more songs,” said Tyrion. “As for Shae, we both know she is no lady, and I would thank you never to speak her name aloud.”
Symon here knows about Tyrion’s relationship with Shae. Now Tyrion’s here to negotiate prices. He mentally upbraids himself for not being harsher, sooner: I threatened him before, but nothing ever came of the threat, so now he believes me toothless.
Tyrion starts with an offer, however. Escort to Duskendale to take ship to the Free Cities. Symon’s counter-offer is a song - and getting the song in is arguably the point of this entire interaction. On a political level, it is clearly about Tyrion’s affair with Shae and tantamount to a threat to expose it if Tyrion doesn’t up the offer. On a literary level it’s here to tell us about one of Tyrion’s core issues:
And a chain and a keep are nothing
Compared to a woman’s kiss.
Recall that Tywin threatened to hang Tyrion’s next illicit sexual partner (back in Tyrion I, ASoS). That on top of the fact Symon’s hit on a major emotional vulnerability.
Tyrion slid his fingers from his cloak, empty.
Tyrion had thirty dragons in a pocket of his cloak. So we can read this as: Tyrion is no longer prepared to offer anything.
Symon is oblivious to this. He insinuates that he’ll go to Cersei or Tywin with this information - but if Tyrion should land him a gig at Joffrey’s wedding, he’ll hold his tongue. This is a freaking ridiculous demand. Sure, Tyrion will get Symon the gig at the biggest venue in the land, that’s something he a) can achieve without comment (which Tyrion points out) and b) does not open him up to further extortion in future. Symon’s unbothered and suggests that Tyrion makes a slot open up, suggesting as a close that should Symon be called up to sing in the meantime, he has an absolute banger he might want to test drive in front of the court.
“That will not be necessary,” said Tyrion. “You have my word as a Lannister, Bronn will call upon you soon.”
Alas, Symon does not understand that he will soon be murdered. Tyrion gives those orders to Bronn almost as soon as they’re out of earshot. And that's the end of that subplot.
Public Sector Corruption
I know! There’s barely a public sector in Westeros at all, and most of it is just a way to spread out the corruption a bit further! But ater all that with the harbour, Tyrion’s work day isn’t done yet. Whatever his flaws, sloth is not amongst them.
Tyrion walks in on his father in the middle of dealing with some stolen goods. Cherrywood scabbard, lion’s-head studs in pure gold (enjoy fixing those when they get scratched), rubies for the eyes. There are some things money can’t buy and damned if taste isn’t one of them. Tyrion approaches at Tywin’s invitation to see that the sword is made of Valyrian steel. Which is strange:
Valyrian steel blades were scarce and costly, yet thousands remained in the world, perhaps two hundred in the Seven Kingdoms alone. It had always irked his father that none belonged to House Lannister.
[…]
Thrice at least Lord Tywin had offered to buy Valyrian longswords from impoverished lesser houses, but his advances had been firmly rebuffed.
What we know and Tyrion doesn’t is that Tywin got the steel by melting down the Stark ancestral sword. And something in the sword itself appears to remember. Though Tywin ordered the armourer to work Lannister crimson into the blade, the steel would not take the dye. The swords made from Ice now have blades like “night and blood upon some steely shore”. Literal lumps of metal have better taste than Tywin.
No sooner than Tyrion says “there is no other sword like it in all the world, I should think” than the armourer reveals a second sword, “if not twins, the two were at least close cousins.” Naturally, the sword Tywin intends to give to Jaime is bigger, I.e. Uses more of the valuable Valyrian steel.
Speaking of, Tywin says to Tyrion’s face:
“It is meant for my son.”
As if Tyrion’s not also Tywin’s son. Again: you cannot buy class. When Tyrion calls him on it, Tywin says “if you have need of a dagger, take one from the armoury.” Another rebuff, as Tywin resists the idea that he would ever gift Tyrion anything
There’s also a throwaway bit of Red Wedding foreshadowing in this chapter too, all slowly but inevitably building up to the main event.
Tyrion placed Jaime’s sword back on the table beside Joffrey’s, wondering if Robb Stark would let his brother live long enough to wield it. Our father must think so, else why have this blade forged?
With that bit of misappropriation of goods unjustly seized by the state done, Tyrion’s actually here to talk about the budget, like I discussed above. After that, we move on to the other political affairs of the realm: Tywin’s unsuccesful attempt to arrange a Tyrell marriage for Cersei, for one. Mace was initially all in before Olenna “unmercifully” bullied him out of it, an interesting insight into Tyrell family dynamics and when and how Olenna’s voice is listened to. It’s clear that the only tie the Tyrells want with the Lannisters goes through the throne. Otherwise they’d prefer to stay disentangled.
Also important is that Tywin promptly throws the entire affair down the memory hole:
“It is better for all of us if the offer was never made. See that you remember that, Tyrion. The offer was never made.”
Someone can’t handle rejection and failure. There are no lessons learned here on Tywin’s part. He’s just editing it out of his personal universe, never to be mentioned again, the reasons never to be considered and factored into future plans. It just didn’t happen. And we know it’s that, and not concern for Cersei’s feelings, because in Jaime VII he’s plotting to marry Jaime to Margaery as if this little incident really didn’t happen.
There’s one last issue for Tyrion to watch Tywin deal with today - the Night’s Watch. Pycelle interrupts, bringing a message from Castle Black. It’s not the first message, either, but it might be the last. It’s one reporting that Jeor Mormont and all his men are missing beyond the Wall. But Bowen Marsh has made a critical mistake: he has addressed his plea to all five kings.
[Tywin] was annoyed. “There is one king in Westeros. Those fools in black might try and remember that if they wish His Grace to heed them. When you reply, tell him Renly is dead and the others are traitors and pretenders.”
He wrote the name on the address wrong. That’s far more significant than, you know, the northern defences of the realm going missing, possibly its entire strength destroyed. No, once this faux pas is cleared up, what the Night’s Watch is going to need is a new leader! Tyrion isn’t pleased when Pycelle suggests Janos Slynt (and Pycelle knows Tyrion will be pissed, too).
“Lord Slynt is new to the Wall. I should know, I sent him there. Why should [the Night’s Watch] pick him over a dozen more senior men?”
“Because,” his father said, in a tone that suggested Tyrion was quite the simpleton, “if they do not vote as they are told, their Wall will melt before it sees another man.”
An entirely reasonable approach to the northern defences. Install this toady or we will starve your organisation.
Tyrion’s anger flashed. “Lord Janos is a hollow suit of armour who will sell himself to the highest bidder.”
“I count that as a point in his favour. Who is like to bid higher than us?”
It’s just flat out corruption. Terrible governance.
And it’s not some small scale NGO, it’s the northern defences. Even if you don’t believe in White Walkers, the Free Folk are real enough. As is the fact that the previous Lord Commander apparently went missing, with all the men he’d taken, in hostile territory. Hello? Is anyone in command here listening? Or prioritising? Do they think Jeor Mormont got lost on a walk in the woods?
Even Tyrion gets sucked in, unfortunately, and his last thought of the chapter is that he should have had Slynt killed too.
Chapter Function
After experiencing the wedding itself from Sansa’s PoV - a choice that is very much GRRM putting Sansa’s fears and vulnerabilities centre stage - we get Tyrion’s PoV to show the secondary effects. Just this short part of this chapter goes a long way to showing Tyrion’s deep-seated issues with romantic love, the lack he feels, how that manifests in how he thinks about and interacts with women (and girls, in Sansa’s case). It also gives us a sense of the raw emotional pain that will eventually lead to Tyrion dropping his brother like a stone after Jaime reveals the truth about what happened with Tysha and to murdering his own father.
This is also one of the reasons the subplot with Symon is here. Symon isn’t all that important in and of himself. What the incident does show us, directly, is that Shae is a serious political liability for Tyrion. Unexamined by Tyrion himself in the moment is the fact that Symon apparently learned of Tyrion’s arrangement with Symon from Shae herself. I doubt it’s malicious on her part - more likely that Shae, who’s about nineteen at this point, just said a little too much in casual conversation - but it’s certainly demonstrating the fact that Shae’s not keeping as quiet about her relationship with Tyrion as Tyrion might want or need.
That, and Symon’s song is outright telling us about Tyrion’s emotional vulnerabilities. You can’t do that with an ordinary extortionist - it would be way too blunt and telling-not-showing to have someone go “hey Tyrion, I know you’re actually in love with Shae despite your better judgement, what’s it worth to you to keep it quiet”. This preserves a tasteful artistic distance.
Alas, we cannot be sure whether the song actually is any good.
Other political plots advance by crucial inches. Littlefinger’s efforts as Master of Coin lurk in the background. There's some Red Wedding foreshadowing. Purple Wedding planning is in full swing. Ice reappears in a different form. The Lannisters and Tyrells continue a tug of war over power. The Night’s Watch is in trouble. All of these things will come back later, bigger, and badder.
Behind this incremental progress is an underlying character dynamic that is also incredibly important for the end of the novel. The back half of the chapter is Tyrion and Tywin interacting. And Tywin is a prick. Even when he has what he wants, his belittling of Tyrion is awful to witness. That “my son” line, just a terrible thing to say. Tywin calls Tyrion’s (good) ideas absurd and treats him like an idiot for his (reasonable) suggestions. Tywin is not just an abusive father but an abusive boss. We see Tyrion try to make himself heard and then back down in the face of Tywin’s unrelenting personal awfulness. This is just not sustainable. One way or another, Tyrion’s got to break. Tywin wants Tyrion to break in the direction of just doing whatever Tywin wants. The readers know Tyrion will go in another direction.
This personal awfulness is, not coincidentally, a big part of why these problems will all come back later. We’re seeing Tywin at work for the realm here, and his priority is the Lannisters. That prioritisation directly results in him ignoring the realm’s dire financial straits and pushing an unqualified toady for a vital Night’s Watch position.
We also get to see the conditions of the common people in King’s Landing, however briefly. The harbour is destroyed (and with it a lot of livelihoods and trade) and won’t be rebuilt anytime soon. Prices are “shockingly high”. Tyrion notes various people described as “gaunt”, “haggard” and “ragged”. This isn’t just about setting up Tyrion’s general unpopularity, but setting up the popular hatred of the Lannisters that will start to become extremely relevant in future books.
Miscellany (and jaywalking)
Worth noting that Kevan’s prioritisation of his own family is evident here, as he’s been wiped out by the news of one son’s murder, in a situation where another son is also a hostage and his eldest son is still recovering from his Blackwater/Cersei-related wounds.
This chapter contains some excellent posthumous characterisation of Robert Baratheon. As Tywin tells us, Robert received sword after sword and dagger after dagger as gifts during his reign - but the only blade Robert ever used was a hunting knife Jon Arryn gave him as a boy. Tossed offhandedly to us by Tywin, it nevertheless shows us that key sentimentality of Robert’s.
Clothing Porn
Bronn wears oiled black mail. In a rare example of describing the clothing of commoners, Symon Silver Tongue wears a doeskin jerkin with bone buttons.
Was moon tea just not an option for Lollys after the assault? Because making her carry that pregnancy always felt unnecessarily cruel
We don't know if carrying the pregnancy was the worse choice for Lollys. It might be, it might not be. I just don't want to go with the premise that it was, unquestioned.
This is because we don't know what Lollys wanted. People with intellectual impairments and delays get to make choices about their lives too (or they should, to the greatest extent possible). Even important decisions. Even bad decisions. Fuck knows that fully intellectually able people make choices where they don't understand the consequences and other people do. It happens all the damn time. As far as we know, the decision to keep the pregnancy (or not)/consent to an abortion (or not) is not reaching any sort of 'endangering self or others' threshold.
The rest is under a cut for the content - rape, ableism, assault pretending to be medical care. Another Thursday in Westeros.
Now, Lollys appears to need a carer. But we don't have the details on her condition. Whatever it is. We don't know what she understood about what happened and about her options, or how long explaining might take, or if it's possible. Maybe Lollys could reach the standard of informed consent. Maybe she couldn't. We don't know.
If Lollys did not want to take moon tea, either because she didn't understand what it was for or, hell, just because she didn't like the taste, should she be forced to take it anyway? We've got Lysa's backstory to tell you why that might be a very bad idea indeed, even without the further complications of Lollys' disability. I sure don't think it's a great idea to follow up the assault Lollys suffered with more assault. Certainly not something to do lightly, even assuming that giving the decision to Lollys' primary carer was absolutely 100% necessary and not just assumed because Lollys is "dim-witted". It's well within the realms of possibility that Tanda personally couldn't bear to force a medical procedure or medication on Lollys regardless of what a maester might have advised - Tanda's got her own trauma, too.
Anyway. Given what Westeros is like, I seriously doubt anyone tried to involve Lollys in her own healthcare. What we've got in the text is this:
"You should give her dreamwine," Shae said, "like Lady Tanda does with Lollys. A cup before she goes to sleep."
Tyrion VII, ASoS
Looks like Tanda's got no problems drugging Lollys whatever Lollys knows, doesn't know, wants, thinks, etc. Lollys is descibed as eating of her own volition; specifying that Tanda gives Lollys the dreamwine indicates that Lollys isn't necessarily drinking this because she thinks it's delicious and/or helpful. We also see this during the Battle of the Blackwater:
"She's been sick," Lady Tanda said. If a babe can be termed a sickness, Sansa thought. It was common gossip that Lollys was with child.
Sansa V, ACoK
There are, however, several reasons for Lady Tanda not to say outright what's going on. Saving face, concern for Lollys, things like that. So this one's got dubious weight as evidence.
But from what little we have, my opinion is that Tanda probably didn't want to believe Lollys was pregnant and missed the window where Lollys' pregnancy could be safely terminated. It looks to me like this situation likely came out of the difficulties of caring for someone, and then true concern for Lollys' safety. We know that Tanda was "half-crazed" with fear for Lollys on the day of the bread riots and got her request for help for Lollys in before Boros Blount reporting on a member of the Kingsguard missing (Tyrion IX, ACoK). I think she cares about her daughter; I don't think Westeros has good structures for her to do so while respecting Lollys' autonomy.
Problematic? Either way? Absolutely. Deliberate cruelty to Lollys or indifference to her wellbeing? I doubt it.
Do you think that if Sansa finds out what has happened to Cersei she will feel some vindictive pleasure that the woman who tormented her is now the one who is a prisoner in the Red Keep? Sansa is a nice girl but Cersei did put her through an awful lot.
None of this is to say that Sansa shouldn't feel her feelings, whatever they are.
But no. She got nothing emotionally out of Joffrey's murder, though she was there for that personally and that could well change her reaction. Not because she's a perfect angel of mercy, mind:
Let his sword break and his shield shatter, Sansa thought coldly as she shoved out through the doors, let his courage fail him and every man desert him.
Sansa V, ACoK
She's wished harm on Joffrey before, and the seriousness of this wish bleeds through the text. This line is before the Battle of the Blackwater and Sansa knows full well that Joffrey really could get hurt and die, and she's added a prayer for his humiliation as well. I could not call this pleasure, though, vindictive or otherwise. The text says "coldly" and that's what this is. Cold. This is not giving Sansa pleasure; this is simply what Sansa thinks Joffrey deserves and what she hopes the gods will give to him.
I can see Sansa having mixed emotions about Cersei's struggles and eventual downfall, including pity, relief, and even some measure of satisfaction. But satisfaction - that some form of consequences caught up to Cersei, that Cersei's unlikely to be hurting her or anyone else again - is as close to pleasure as I think Sansa will get.
Sansa's capable of hatred, but I don't think she gets any joy out of hating. It really isn't in some people.
How do you think Littlefinger was planning to kill Tywin? It seems to me that he had to get rid of Tywin so that Cersei would take charge and ruin the Lannisters already shaky position.
I don't think Littlefinger was planning to kill Tywin... himself. By which I mean I don't think he personally had active plans on the go towards that end. After all, Littlefinger already lobbed several grenades at the Lannister regime.
Cut for length!
First, he'd rigged the slow collapse of the crown's finances, something that even in ASoS could only realistically be staved off (not fixed at root cause!) by the Lannisters forgiving at least some of their loans to the crown.
"Don't be absurd."
Tywin to Tyrion, on this topic, Tyrion IV, ASoS
That's money straight out of Tywin's pocket. Who do we think is receiving some of that usury Tyrion's struggling to cover?
We can see the sort of impact that has in AFFC clearly. Cersei's making it worse than it might otherwise have been, but even under the best of circumstances Tywin would eventually be forced into making some tough financial decisions. Pay the Iron Bank? Pay himself? Pay for mercenaries? Pay to rebuild the commercial districts of King's Landing? We can only pick two? Wait, we can only pick one now? Each carries its own negative consequences.
Second, Littlefinger arranged for Joffrey's death. Joffrey's rule meant chaos, yes, but Joffrey was also nearly an adult by Westerosi standards. Tommen is not. Littlefinger put a weak boy king on the throne and brought home the prospects of several years of de facto King Tywin to all Tywin's political enemies. Of which there are many, post-Red Wedding.
Third, Littlefinger framed Tyrion for Joffrey's murder. Not in a huge overt way, but he did make sure that there was a major public insult to Tyrion at the wedding itself. Which he could be reasonably sure Tyrion would not remain poker-faced about. Hey look everyone, it's a motive! A motive right here! And everyone in attendance got to see it for themselves, right down to any serving staff working that night.
Tyrion is arguably the most competent Lannister in King's Landing - the only other sound Lannister ally who might have the skills needed to handle the various crises of the realm is Kevan. It's also no secret that Tywin and Cersei both hate Tyrion's guts.
So framing Tyrion drives a dagger into the heart of various Lannister personal sensitivities. It does not take a huge leap of logic to realise that Cersei in particular would fixate on Tyrion as the most logical suspect of the murder of her favourite child. Littlefinger's prodded the Lannisters into tearing themselves apart. This takes up their time and attention, and reduces their available skills as a unit.
And all this takes place against a backdrop Littlefinger helped engineer: the end of the War of Five Kings. Tywin had plenty of enemies at the start of the series. The Red Wedding only made him more and more dedicated enemies. Oberyn Martell is coming to town, for instance. Littlefinger's already had a good look at Tyrell ambitions and their willingness to murder a king for them. Varys is up to something, Littlefinger might not know what exactly, but he can know it's a big deal.
Littlefinger has read the room, basically, and concluded that the Lannisters were facing severe problems they'd struggle to navigate at the best of times. Shaky authority, ambitious rivals, more deadly enemies than you can shake a stick at. He'd spent years developing the crown's dependence on him personally and created another crisis of his own - a financial crisis that would absolutely hamstring all but the most popular, authoritative, competent, and creative of regimes.
Then he kicked a few supports out and left.
Under these circumstances, even should Tywin survive his enemies, he might well not be able to do anything about Littlefinger's schemes until it was too late.
Littlefinger doesn't need to do anything else to the Lannisters now. He can sit back in the reasonably certain knowledge that Tywin's enemies (and even his allies) will accomplish those ends for him, preserving Littlefinger's own resources for the next challenge.
Do you think there will be a Stark power struggle in Winds between Rickon supporters, Jon’s supporters and Sansa supporters? Given the very different circumstances I don’t see Robbs will having much impact.
Yeah, I can see different factions having different preferences - but I don't think these are ever going to get out of control like the War of Five Kings.
Aside from the Starks themselves genuinely loving their siblings and coming around quickly to the need to address the developing White Walker crisis, I think Bran's return to Winterfell is likely to settle matters. Bran being the eldest surviving legitimate son of Ned gives him a strong claim, and the strength of that claim gives any hypothetical supporters of Sansa or Rickon or Jon a clean way out of conflict.
Do you think Dany is going to accidentally blow up Kings Landing? Wouldn’t that invalidate Jaime killing Aerys and everything he went through as a result?
Short answers: yes to the first, no to the second.
Long answers below the cut.
First question:
Why I think King's Landing will be blown up: the author is unlikely to put magical dynamite underneath King's Landing in the first act and not set it off in the second.
Why I think Dany: it's her dad who planted the dynamite underneath her long-term objective.
Why I think accidental: Dany sure does not read to me like the sort of character who would do it deliberately. It's not everyone's take, but it's mine and I think it's a very supportable view.
Between that and the themes of Dany's storyline about family legacy and justified violence, and the whole series' questions about monarchy and fights over the throne, I think there's more scope for character development and thematic discussion when Dany's responsibility for something so terrible lies in a moral grey area. When she's the one bringing violence to the city, who acts knowing there's a risk to the lives of the people living there, and then sees her actions literally blow up in her face. The consequences are then hers to face up to. This is a worthy dark night of the soul for one of the series' central characters, right as she needs to turn her attention to the apocalyptic crisis in the north.
The alternative is her blasting past moral grey right into "decided a million civilian deaths were worth it for the throne." We saw how well that worked in the show.
Second question:
No more than Walton Steelshanks killing the bear invalidated Jaime's decision to jump into the bear pit to save Brienne. No more than a tsunami wiping out the King's Landing would invalidate those choices, no more than someone's cow kicking over a candle and setting off the same explosive chain of events. The narrative's point is in the choices Jaime made - and the choices he may have to make again, if Cersei decides to try and take everyone down with her - rather than the extent of his successes.
No, Jaime saved the city that day and nothing and nobody can take that away from him.
Part of the tragedy here is that he then acted like someone could, and kept quiet about his own heroism. Jaime turned his "finest act" into one of his many dirty secrets. Jaime should be proud of what he did and shouldn't have such a visceral negative response to basic questioning about how he did his job, but his first response was instead to flinch away resentfully from the judgemental stare of a fellow teenager who didn't know what he walked in on or what he was looking at.
It's such a perverse outcome and once again you can put it down to the horrible beliefs about family superiority Tywin inculcated in his family and the emotional abuse he inflicted on them. Where questions and even possible disagreement are personal attacks and slights on family honour, Jaime does not feel free to defend controversial actions he undertook in good faith. Actions that saved countless lives. Tywin's created a model of Lannister power where "fuck you, Jaime keeps his job because he's a Lannister" is a preferable response to "Jaime was faced with an unprecedented crisis and made a very difficult choice in order to save the entire city - sending him to the Wall for saving King's Landing isn't fair."
You can see that there's a lot to talk about and to keep talking about. And blowing up King's Landing for real gives us more to discuss with Jaime's actions.
Man-made disasters never have just one cause. There are always multiple reasons, multiple failures. Jaime's silence is only one contributing factor in any future King's Landing explosions. Jaime did not know the consequences of keeping quiet. He could not reasonably be expected to know that the magical explosives would grow more dangerous over time. His silence is a lost opportunity to prevent future disaster. But he didn't put the wildfire there. It's extremely unlikely that he'll be the one to set it off.
As with Aerys and Daenerys, so with Jaime. Actions aren't one and done. They have consequences echoing down the years. Jaime saved King's Landing at the end of the Rebellion. That was important and that was a good thing. Sixteen years can't be erased by future events partially enabled by Jaime's own tragic flaws - the flaws allow the readers to keep talking about consequences.
Off the previous ask - do we know Loras had no knowledge that his family killed Joffrey? I had read that scene as him trying to direct suspicion away from Margaery and any other Tyrells.
The 'previous ask' is this one.
I cannot say for sure whether Loras knew or didn't. I'm certainly not going to rule out anon's reading of Loras's comments. It's just:
"It's said the Knight of Flowers went mad when he saw his king's body, and slew three of Renly's guards in his wrath, among them Emmon Cuy and Robar Royce."
Varys to Tyrion, Tyrion VIII, ACoK
and
Ser Loras is a Tyrell, Sansa reminded herself. That other knight was only a Toyne. [...] Yet the more she thought about it all, the more she wondered. Joff might restrain himself for a few turns, perhaps as long as a year, but soon or late he will show his claws, and when he does... The realm might have a second Kingslayer, and there would be war inside the city, as the men of the lion and the men of the rose made the gutters run red.
Sansa II, ASoS
Loras is a hothead. The Tyrells know this. He murdered a few people because of this trait! We also know that there are a fair few people in King's Landing well aware of Renly and Loras's relationship, another thing that demonstrates a relative lack of ability on Loras's part in keeping secrets. Even after Renly's dead, contemporaneous with the murder plot, Loras isn't the most discreet in his comments about his romantic love for Renly.
The Tyrells are going forward with the plan to murder Joffrey at the literal earliest opportunity in no small part because they cannot trust Loras to restrain himself. It's not exactly the same, needing Loras to hold his tongue as opposed to needing him to stay his sword, but there's definitely a core similarity.
It's not just the fear that Loras might give us a line as good as "when the sun has set no candle can replace it" about how the Tyrells murdered Joffrey. The Tyrells have to worry about Loras keeping a poker face too - if Loras is getting twitchy over Margaery's safety, hypervigilant when she's around Joffrey, that's also the sort of thing that can cast suspicion on the Tyrells when Joffrey drops dead. A big flashing red sign reading MOTIVE.
Under those circumstances, yeah, I seriously doubt Loras was clued into the plan beforehand. Afterwards he may have put a few things together and/or been brought in on details - being hotheaded isn't the same as being stupid, after all, and Loras should be able to see that Joffrey's death has solved a few problems for his family.
Do you think it’s a bit pitiful that Tywin cult of personality is so entrenched in House Lannister that even after he is murdered Cersei, Kevan, and Jaime try to make decisions based on what they think he would do?
No.
This is hardly going to be an exhaustive list of examples, but we have Sansa modelling herself on her mother:
She had promised herself she would be a lady, gentle as the queen and as strong as her mother, the Lady Catelyn, but all of a sudden she was scared again.
Sansa IV, AGoT
Sansa's grown adult mother in turn wondering what her (dying) father would have done in her place:
Catelyn could not say if Lord Hoster knew that she was there, or if her presence brought him any comfort, but it gave her solace to be with him. What would you say if you knew my crime, Father? she wondered. Would you have done as I did, if it were Lysa and me in the hands of our enemies? Or would you condemn me too, and call it mother's madness?
Catelyn I, ASoS
Dany wondering what her long-dead brother might have felt in a stressful situation, just before she frees the Unsullied:
Dany mounted her silver. She could feel her heart thumping in her chest. She felt desperately afraid. Was this what my brother would have done? She wondered if Prince Rhaegar had been this anxious when he saw the Usurper's host formed up across the Trident with all their banners floating on the wind.
Daenerys III, ASoS
And Robb explaining that he also thinks of his dead father's example in another moment of stress and fear:
"The Others can take her, then," Robb cursed, in a fury of despair. "[...] When everyone was shouting King in the North, King in the North, I told myself . . . swore to myself . . . that I would be a good king, as honorable as Father, strong, just, loyal to my friends and brave when I faced my enemies . . . now I can't even tell one from the other. How did it all get so confused?
Catelyn III, ASoS
It is entirely normal - not necessarily a personality cult - for people to look to their parents and older siblings for practical and moral guidance. It's the whole point of a role model. The problem, as always, is that for the Lannisters the role model is Tywin.
Do you think grrm has any real conclusion to the questions he raise about corrupt institutions, society structures, leadership? Do you think he will end up just examining over these issues without writing for either reform or abolishment.
I mean, it's a novel series and not a policy paper for a reason.
The author's foremost aim is to tell a story rather than presenting options for government. There's a clear level of meditation in there, working through the problems via the characters, an exercise in empathy that again, does not necessarily lend itself to presenting positive options in sufficient detail to implement them. Nor do I think GRRM's necessarily after that level of detail around institutional options - I think his interest is in people.
That said, I also think what we've got of the story makes it clear that the author has certain values and thinks certain values have a place in government and social institutions. It's pretty clear what GRRM thinks about the importance of love and compassion as the foundation for everything else. Not without complications in an imperfect and unforgiving world, of course, but that doesn't make those things any less important.
There's also where the author is just going to leave things up to the reader to think about and decide for themselves what to think about it. GRRM is good at that. It makes for a more powerful story. If the author is telling you what to think, that's when you end up with Atlas Shrugged. I don't think any of us want that.
