Tell Me About Your Song

'Tell Me About Your Song' is a podcast in which the host, Jacob Haller, talks to songwriters and musicians about songs they've written. [subscribe via iTunes] [subscribe via stitcher] [subscribe via rss] [subscribe via email]

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For 'Tell Me About Your Song' #82, Jeana Marie DeLaire of Great Gale talked about her song 'Dunes', which is from their album 'Somewhere Moving'.

Somewhere Moving by Great Gale

In the course of our discussion, we touched on the following topics:

The Great Gale of 1815

Bar Harbor, Maine

Acadia National Park

MXR Carbon Copy delay pedal

Provincetown

If you're interested in hearing another version of 'Dunes', Great Gale also recorded it as an NPR Tiny Desk contest submission.

You can hear more of Great Gale's music on Bandcamp, iTunes, and Spotify, and you can also find them on Tumblr and Facebook.

The 'Tell Me About Your Song' icon was designed by Shaenon K. Garrity.

If you want more information about your host, Jacob Haller, then check out my web page, my facebook page, or my twitter account.

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Episode Transcript:

[EXCERPT FROM 'DUNES' BY GREAT GALE PLAYS:]

And I know where you're going, and I know where you've been, so what is it that gets you by? Do your terrors come when you close your eyes? What is it that gets you by? Do you sleep on through the night?

JACOB: Hello, and welcome to Tell Me About Your Song, the podcast where I talk to musicians and songwriters about a song they've written. Today's guest is Jeana Marie DeLaire of the band Great Gale, and the song she'll be talking about is named "Dunes", from her album 'Somewhere Moving'. Where would you like to start with the song?

JEANA: I think I'll start by talking about my band name, "Great Gale". Though I wrote the songs on 'Somewhere Moving' before Great Gale really came to life, I do all of my shows under the name of Great Gale, whether I'm doing a solo show, or performing as a band with my drummer Jeff and our guitarist. So the band name, Great Gale, is actually named after a hurricane that happened in the eighteen hundreds, that hit New England very hard, and Providence in particular, and so I think that Dunes, which is really motivated by self reflections and nature -- Great Gale (the band name) is definitely as well. This is the most requested song that I have defin-- not that there's many of them. Definitely the song is often requested. I've even had another local musician cover it, and put it on their demo, and it sounds totally different, but it's definitely really flattering that someone felt that inspired by the lyrics to do that, and I really love that the song has sort of become something much bigger than my own experience. Again, it has, I think, almost overly simplified lyrics in many ways. It really doesn't have that many lyrics. Most of my songs tend to be, I think, overly verbose, but this one is very succinct, lyrically. So I've really loved kind of seeing it take on a life of its own in many ways, and even take on different melodies from different people that are singing it, and just mean so many different things to different people. I think what stays the same is the emotion behind it, but the actual lyrics -- they're so open to interpretation. I often moved a lot growing up, and I definitely think that that has influenced me in a number of ways, many positive ways. One way that can oftentimes be perceived as negative is, I don't always feel like I know the social ropes, when it comes to, like, group interaction, and so I've had an interesting perspective, especially at the time that I wrote this. I was in a new city, a new town, a very isolated town, and I was going through this process of meeting new people, and it actually went really well -- I really left that area with a ton of really close friends -- but I've always had sort of this, like, over-analyzing thing that I do in groups, and in social settings, so I think that Dunes really is a song that -- it's the culmination of that aspect of my life. The space of the song was so motivated by my surroundings in Bar Harbor. So, I was attending college in Bar Harbor, Maine -- which, for those that don't know, it's on Mount Desert Island, so off the coast of Maine. and it is actually an island, and it's about six and a half hours from Providence area, where we're based out of. Mount Desert Island is really quite rural, and it's home to Acadia National Park, which is a beautiful gorgeous park. It's crazy packed with tourists in the summer, but in the winter, and the rest of the year, really, all you really hear is the ocean, and the wind, and peepers -- especially when it's peeper season, they're all over -- and the blackflies, and just different parts of nature that -- It's either incredibly calm and quiet, or, depending on your headspace, it's very loud. Though I'd lived in some rural places when I was quite young, I had never lived on an island off the coast of Maine, which was just drastically different, so I think that really, really, heavily influenced the space present throughout the whole song, and it definitely also influenced the process I was going through at the time of really reflecting a lot upon my life, and the life of my good friends, and ... so being sort of like surrounded by nature at the time, I think it's really present in the song, for sure. This song was very different from my normal lyrical writing process. So I wrote it in, I want to say it is 2010, perhaps 2011. So I wrote the lyrics to that song early into attending college there, and it was definitely sort of a culture shock for me, because I had primarily lived in more urban areas, so I wrote the first few words really, really late at night. I had just gotten a typewriter for the first time ever in my life, as a young college student. I had just gotten back from a party, and I had been going through a lot of really intense self-reflection, and a lot of changes really abruptly happened in my life at that time, so it was probably, like, 1:00 or 2:00 in the morning, and I had just gotten back to my dorm room, and I had this new typewriter, and I was definitely a little intoxicated, and I started typing out the chorus lyrics. So the chorus lyrics actually came first.

[EXCERPT FROM 'DUNES' PLAYS:]

What is it that gets you by? Do your terrors come when you close your eyes? What is it that gets you by? Do you sleep on through the night?

JEANA: It was probably weeks until I actually noticed that I had done it [laughs] and then had remembered it, so I found it on my desk, and started to tie in parts of short stories that I had been writing, and restructuring it to make it sound more, like, poetic and cohesive. Usually my writing process is much more organized than that. Usually I sit down and write sort of an outline of a song, and it's actually generally poetry that I write, disconnected from the music. That one, I had the chorus, and I saw it written out, and I immediately had some chords that I had been working on that I applied to it. So I really wrote, like, the syllable structure, and the melody, to chords that were already there. So it all kind of happened at once.

JACOB: Had you done a lot of songwriting before then?

JEANA: I had, but I think -- I want to say that Dunes was one of the first songs that I really completed. I definitely had written a lot of partially completed songs before, but nothing that I had actually played out, and Dunes was the first that I knew I wanted to finish it. I knew that I wanted to play it out.

JACOB: What do you think it was about it?

JEANA: I think that it really represented not only a lot of what I was going through, sort of, emotionally and spiritually in my life, but also musically. So, at my college I took some fingerstyle guitar lessons from a really amazing classical guitarist by the name of Kevin Morse -- he is just amazing -- and I was studying jazz guitar, as well. So, that song, though it doesn't sound like jazz or classical style guitar at all, it really ties in a lot of the stuff that I was learning. It is finger-picked, and the chord voicings are -- There's a lot of sevens and there's, like, a 9 in there, too, so I think that I was really excited about the musics and felt like I just needed to get those words out. The goal of the song, I think, has ultimately been to be sort of minimalist, and really play with the space of the song, and I found a really interesting way to do that was to apply a lot of effect pedals. I primarily play acoustic guitar right now, but I have more of a background in lead guitar, and I'm really into, sort of, like, ambient style lead guitar. And so when I started Great Gale as an acoustic guitarist, I kind of struggled with finding ways to still be able to make really weird, bizarre, spacey sounds, and I think Dunes is an example of where I still used a ton of reverb, a little bit of delay, a little bit of tone modification... I use the Carbon Copy delay pedal a lot, and it has a tone modification button, which kind of creates all sorts of dissonance, and that, matched with with reverb, really creates a lot of noise that tends to linger, and also creates this thing that happens, where the tonality of the song almost blends together, and while it's really just a few chords, because it's it's finger picked like that, the notes tend to carry over into one another, and, yeah. And I really tried to play with the overall meaning of the song, and having some of the bizarre sounds sort of symbolic of the overall meaning, too.

[INSTRUMENTAL INTRODUCTION TO 'DUNES' STARTS PLAYING]

JEANA: The beginning of the song is probably the best example. It starts with the really heavy sort of percussion sound, with really ambient guitar, and I'm privileged to work with Jeff Castelli -- he's the other member, other full-time member of Great Gale. He's also the main producer. We did the recordings all on our own, and Jeff is sort of a leader on that front, and he's really great at bringing in bizarre sounds, just in general. [laughs] It's like his favorite thing to do. So, I think that, right away, the song starts out with a lot of tension, and the overall song -- I guess I should just start talking about the meaning; maybe that would tie it in better. The overall meaning is sort of about our internal reflections on our life, and, like, the things that have gotten us there, and how we all have our different paths that we walk, which are often influenced by by the people that we have in our life. So starting this song with that sort of tension and abrupt drums, with the backdrop of really ambient guitar noises, I think it's a good example of that.

[EXCERPT FROM 'DUNES' PLAYS:]

I'll stop for just a second, to watch the cop cars drive by over the dunes of Provincetown, where your father's ashes lie.

JACOB: In the lyrics, are you referring to real life things?

JEANA: Yes and no. [laughs] So there's some that play on really clear experiences that I've had, and others that are definitely more of, like, metaphors. So, the first few lines about the dunes over Provincetown: I had a really tight, core, group of friends in my adolescence and my teenage years, and we would often take an annual trip to Provincetown on the Cape, and one moment that really struck me, in my adolescence, was sitting at a beach late at night with my friend, whose father had passed away (and I got his permission to talk about this story for the podcast) -- his father had passed away when he was very young, and his ashes were spread over the dunes, which are no longer there because of weather, but the dunes were there at the time, and I just remember, sort of, taking in all of these life experiences that I've had with this group of friends, and it was, sort of, like, towards the end of high school, and it was one of the last summers that we had together, so I knew that I wanted to eventually reference that in the song, and that experience really opened up the song, and sort of paved the way for everything that follows in lyrically within it.

[EXCERPT FROM 'DUNES' PLAYS:]

... Over the dunes of Provincetown, where your father's ashes lie. And I know where you're going, and I know where you've been, so what is it that gets you by? Do your terrors come when you close your eyes? What is it that gets you by? Do you sleep on through the night?

JACOB: Have they heard the song?

JEANA: They have heard the song. I remember they came to a show -- Actually, when I played it with the Novi Giants, before Great Gale, even, I remember being very nervous, because I knew that I was going to play this song, and I had mentioned it to them, and I think I had even sent them a recording, or maybe I had just sent them the lyrics, but I was still nervous. I think that, as humans, we often try to avoid dark subjects, instead of talking about them, and I don't always think that that's the healthiest way to process. So I think this friend, in particular -- He's my friend Eli, and we're very close friends. We've been friends for years. Us in particular, we have a pretty dark sense of humor with one another. So I took his word for it that it was going to be OK, and he heard the song, and he actually was super happy about it. I think he's the type of person that really appreciates talking about things, and our trips to Provincetown were really important, I think, to both of us, in a lot of ways, because it was always when -- It was at a time where both of us were kind of going through a lot in our adolescence, and those trips, sort of, meant a certain freedom for us. So, I think that being able to sing about the sort of dark emotions surrounding that sense of freedom is important for both of us. Getting back to, sort of, the overall meaning of the song: It definitely is a lot about the changes that I've gone through personally, but what it really is, most of all, is just that moment that you have when you start to realize that the people that you're surrounding yourself with aren't necessarily making the choices that you want to make. And, so, it's really about realizing what that means, and developing that, more for yourself. So the chorus:

[EXCERPT FROM 'DUNES' PLAYS:]

So what is it that gets you by? Do your terrors come when you close your eyes?

JEANA: It's realizing that, not only are you feeling that, but, in fact, everybody probably feels that, at one point. So, it's just that kind of thought of, like, we're all here doing this again. Who actually wants to be here? What are you actually doing when you're alone? What are you thinking?

[EXCERPT FROM 'DUNES' PLAYS:]

And hear the howling of the pack who've come to take you in to the place to lose and win, and start again. To the place to lose and win, and start again.

JACOB: And then, the second verse, there's "the howling of the pack coming to take you in" -- like, the obvious thing would be to say, like, peer pressure, but..

JEANA: Yep. It's definitely peer pressure. And it's interesting, I've had -- Some people, a lot of times, will hear the song, and they really, I think, can relate to the simplicity of the chorus. I don't typically write music in a way that's super typical for songwriting, and it's definitely not pop style. Like, honestly, it's everything that my music instructor told me not to do, about writing music, is what I tend to do. So I think Dunes is -- Definitely you can see that kind of style of writing in the song, but it definitely has a chorus that repeats many times, and I think is very relatable, so I've had a lot of folks hear the song, and offer their own analysis of it, and I've heard "peer pressure" -- that definitely was my intention when I wrote that line -- but I've also heard some people represent that, to them, it means more of like their own inner voices and their own insecurities. And I think that those two things are really connected. So I really enjoy hearing people's different ways of relating the song back to their own life. There's also a really intentional shift in, sort of, the sound of the song, which is present in both the guitar and the kick drum, in particular. The kick goes from, I think it's on the 2 in most of the song, and it goes right to the 1 of each measure, and the chords actually change. So it's mostly in A minor, and then when that comes out of -- I guess you could call it a bridge, sure -- the little instrumental break -- it goes from a G, and the G's only in the song a few times, so every time it's there it is quite dramatic, and then it actually swaps the A minor to F, and starts in F, and it's no longer an F7; it's now just an F major chord, just a normal F major chord. So I wrote that part of the song to sort of sound like it was the uplifting part, sort of like the "coming to terms with yourself," and this long process that we continuously do throughout our lives of self-reflection. So it's a, like, happier time where it's, like, "OK. Some of us aren't here any more, but we're all, like, finding our own paths," and it's definitely very, I guess, existential, in some ways, because there is, like, the acceptance of, sort of like, -- I don't want to say, like, depression, but I think of -- there's an acceptance of mortality, I think, in that part of the song as well, so it's definitely part of that existential quest of figuring out who we are, and what we're really here for, and if it's okay if we're doing it alone, and who we are when we're by ourselves, and who we are when we're in a group.

[EXCERPT FROM 'DUNES' PLAYS:]

And I know the roads been long. Some of us have lost our ways. What is it that gets you by? Do your terrors come when you close your eyes? What is it that gets you by? Do you sleep on through the night?

JACOB: In that instrumental section we're talking about, like, the way that it switches from the beat being on the 2, to it being on the 1, is it skips a beat.

[EXCERPT FROM 'DUNES' PLAYS:]

And I know ...

JEANA: The drummer, Jeff, he's really into, sort of, experimental drumming, and beat styles like that, so that was definitely his input there, and I really loved the, sort of, dissonance that it created in the song, and once I was finally able to do it successfully in practice, we started adding that in.

[EXCERPT FROM 'DUNES' PLAYS:]

What is it that gets you by? Do you sleep on through the night? One day we all will fall.

JEANA: I definitely wrote it when I was in a bit of a dark place, so, for me, at the time, it was meant as kind of a dark, like, "This is pointless, because how can we -- We only go so far, and then, you know, we all die!" It's definitely, like, incredibly dramatic, and sort of something that I think a lot of adolescents go through, and I was quite young when I wrote it. But I think that it can also be viewed in line with that, like, F, more major, feel, is kind of coming to terms with what we have and who we are.

[EXCERPT FROM 'DUNES' PLAYS:]

One day we all will fall. One day we all will fall. One day we all will fall.

JEANA: So you'll hear throughout, somewhere, moving throughout those recordings, Jeff tends to -- his backup vocals tend to be very, like, panned backwards, if you're listening in earphones, and have a lot of reverb. Oftentimes, they'll have delay on them, too, and they'll be, sort of, like, very low-fi, and almost overly compressed, and that's definitely intentional. I think that he had just done it -- I think he might have even done it by accident in one of the mixes. It might have been an accident, or it might have been very intentional. I'm not totally sure -- but I remember hearing it, and just being super into that kind of editing for the backup vocals, so it remained very consistent in all of the 'Somewhere Moving' recordings, and, for me, it kind of represented almost, like, this ghostly voice, that just comes back, and returns, in all of the songs, and a lot of the songs are definitely about watching some friends go through things like drug addiction, and go into recovery, and some of them not necessarily make it into recovery, at the time that I was writing them, so I think that it's sort of representative of literally, like, ghostly figures, and this, like, impending doom that is sort of there. Much of the song is just, is so -- It's quite dramatic, lyrically and instrumentally, so I think that it was -- It just felt like a very fitting ending, for it to sort of go out with really playing on space. So, it actually -- though it's technically quieter and softer because the instruments cut out -- it really just, like, gets under your skin, in a way that I wanted to try to to play with. And the beginning of the lyrics start with a pause, so I thought would be interesting if the end started with sort of an extended fade out on that line.

[EXCERPT FROM 'DUNES' PLAYS:]

One day we all will fall.

JEANA: A lot of the songs I tend to write, and -- I'm not super connected to them, because I think that songwriting is just a really fun process, and you can sort of write things, and leave them, and kind of move on. But Dunes, in particular, has been one that I've kinda kept close. So there's different lines that I've gone back to, and either have a different meaning when I hear it again, somehow, or just stick out in a different way that they hadn't before. So, I think when I first wrote the song, the opening lines -- "I'll stop for just a second" -- were sort of the big thing that I thought about, and I -- When I play it live, I tend to play with the space afterwards. It's not always to time, so I'll sort of extend it out -- again, to play with that tension, which is much easier to do live than in the recording. So, I think that because of the sort of playful nature of the opening line, that I can have with the audience -- That line used to stick out a lot for me. That's what I mostly thought about. But it changes. I definitely think that "the howling of the pack" line is one that I often go back to, as well. And I see folks singing along to that. I've been to a few Great Gale shows, which always means a lot to me when I see people actually singing along to songs.

JACOB: So, if people would like to hear more of your music, what should they do?

JEANA: They have a few options. They can go to GreatGale.bandcamp.com to see all of our works up there -- and those are all self recorded works. They can also go to iTunes and Spotify, coming very soon, so by the time that this is edited, they should be able to find it: "Somewhere Moving" by Great Gale on iTunes, and you can also check in with our tumblr: GreatGale.tumblr.com, and find us on Facebook.

JACOB: Great! And my name's Jacob Haller, and I have my own music, which you can find on Bandcamp or at music.jwgh.org, and I also have a couple of other podcasts and various projects I'm working on, that you can find at jacobhaller.com. I'm going to put together, you know, some show notes with links to Jeana's website, and various other things we've talked about, and you'll be able to find that on yoursongpodcast.tumblr.com (spells it), and I guess, with all that said, we're going to go out by listening to the song we've been talking about in full: "Dunes", by Jeana Marie DeLaire of Great Gale, from her album 'Somewhere Moving'. Thanks for listening.

['DUNES' PLAYS IN FULL. YOU CAN FIND THE LYRICS ON GREAT GALE'S BANDCAMP PAGE.]

JEANA: Yep, that was way more articulate, but, definitely. Great. Yup!

JACOB: Didn't feel articulate! [laughter]

JEANA: That was, I think...

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For 'Tell Me About Your Song' #81, Lucas Kwong of The Brother K Melee talks about his song 'Stranger from the Country'. Sorry for the delay in getting this up -- it's been quite a year!

Stranger From The Country by THE BROTHER K MELEE

In the course of our discussion, we touched on the following topics:

Romanticism Pilate's wife The Stations of the Cross The Great Chain of Being Rashomon Happiness is a Warm Gun A Day in the Life WFMU The Seven Second Delay Almost Amateur Hour: set list / audio

This episode contains a brief excerpt from a live performance of the Brother K Melee's song 'Margery', which you can also find on Bandcamp.

For more information about Lucas's music, as well as his upcoming shows and videos, check out his website at brotherkmusic.com. You can listen to and buy his music on Bandcamp, and he is also on facebook and twitter.

The 'Tell Me About Your Song' icon was designed by Shaenon K. Garrity.

If you want more information about your host, Jacob Haller, then check out my web page, my facebook page, or my twitter account.

'Tell Me About Your Song' on Apple Podcasts - rate and review us!

'Tell Me About Your Song' on Android

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Episode Transcript:

[EXCERPT FROM 'STRANGER IN THE COUNTRY' PLAYS:]

What do you have to say?

JACOB: Hello, and welcome to Tell Me About Your Song, the podcast where I talk to musicians and songwriters about a song they've written. Today's guest is Lucas Kwong of The Brother K Melee, and the song he'll be talking about is named "Stranger from the Country." So where would you like to start, Lucas?

LUCAS: There's this, like, capital R Romantic idea of the artist as someone who just kind of flows freely through life, and lets ideas come to them, and what I've realized is, if I let myself do that, then I will just postpone doing things. Like a lot of creative people, I can be kind of lazy. My church had an exhibit inspired by the Stations of the Cross. A lot of artists in this community, Ytu know, each artist was assigned to a different station. So, I signed up to do one about the sentencing of Christ, and so it was, kind of, one of those things where there's a deadline, I have to turn in, you know, produce something by this time, and also there's a limitation of subject. Now, of course, you know, within those broad parameters, I had, kind of, creative liberty to put my own spin on the song, but, you know, it's not going to be about that one time I had a road trip in New Orleans, or something like that, right? I mean, there's a definite set of limitations from the beginning, and it just came in pieces. I remember, in the third section of the song, the part:

[EXCERPT FROM 'STRANGER IN THE COUNTRY' PLAYS:]

First he was silent as a stone cold killer, Or a killjoy filler for the main man.

LUCAS: That whole part came to me all at once. I was in the shower, and I was kind of scared of writing more, because it just felt so perfect, that one part -- I didn't want to ruin it by adding other parts that either made that part sound bad, or weren't as good themselves. The thing about, you know -- I wanted to avoid writing a song, is, the kind of song that is very didactic. You know, when you're dealing with religion, when you're dealing with a song that touches on religion, or sacred texts, you always run the risk of making it, like, you know, an object lesson, and -- I guess the secular equivalent would be, like, a protest song, where it's very blunt and clear: This is what the message is, right? And I don't want to do that. I didn't want it to be that kind of monotonous. So I realized that a way around that could be to make it in multiple sections. And I've always loved the Beatles song "Happiness Is a Warm Gun."

[EXCERPT FROM 'HAPPINESS IS A WARM GUN' PLAYS:]

She's not a girl who misses much.

LUCAS: So I thought maybe I can do something like that.

[EXCERPT FROM 'HAPPINESS IS A WARM GUN' CONTINUES:]

Do do do do do do, oh yeah.

LUCAS: And then, after that, it was pretty quick. Then I had the second part, which is from Pilate's perspective, and then I realized the third part could be, you know, the part that I originally came up with.

[EXCERPT FROM 'STRANGER IN THE COUNTRY' PLAYS:]

And then our mouths filled with laughter when he said we'd see him after On high at the Almighty's right hand.

LUCAS: There's four sections of the song, and I had the third section, but I didn't know it was the third section, and then maybe, you know, two months later, I was walking around outside, and -- you know, when you're walking -- I live in Brooklyn now, and I live pretty close to the Brooklyn museum, so I was just going for a walk, and I was just kind of mumbling to myself, which I sometimes do, without a time signature, and I just had different words coming to me:

[EXCERPT FROM 'STRANGER IN THE COUNTRY' PLAYS:]

Last night my lady had the strangest dream, She was under a white moon. Nothing was as it seemed, Everything was too soon.

LUCAS: And that's how the first section started, because, you know, the first section of the song has no time signature. And I just had words at that point -- and I briefly considered, like, forcing them into a meter, and I was like, "Maybe just leave it, and that can be the introduction."

[EXCERPT FROM 'STRANGER IN THE COUNTRY' CONTINUES:]

... "Man do I know you?" You said "Better than you might think, If you allow me to show you, Cause this is the hour and the power"

LUCAS: And because of those words, you know ... Those words are from the perspective of Pilate's wife -- you know, there's a single verse that talks about a dream that Pilate's wife had -- and, once I had those those lyrics, it kind of -- I kind of realized the song was about different perspectives, you know, on this one event.

JACOB: I had forgotten that Pilate's wife was part of that whole story.

LUCAS: Yeah, it's like a "blink and you --" It's like a cameo.

JACOB: Mm-hmm.

LUCAS: Because it's one verse, and it's so -- It's so mysterious. It's like, what was that dream? And what kind of relation does Pilate have with his wife, anyway? Does she always tell him her dreams? You know, there are all kinds of questions, but it, you know, I only had six minutes.

JACOB: [laughs] Yeah.

LUCAS: And there was a physical restraint, too, because I had ordered a 12" record [probably 10". -editor], so I was trying to write a song I could fit on, because otherwise I'd have had to order a 12", and that would have been way too big, so... And then, actually, the day before recording was when I came up with the fourth section, because I still wasn't totally happy with it, and it was -- I was straddling -- You know, should the third section be super aggressive and heavier, or should it be more meditative and dreamlike? And then I realized, "Well, I can just add another section, and stitch together two of the previous sections." That became the fourth section, and that's how the song came together. It was very haphazard.

JACOB: So, kind of the inspiration for the song was from this, kind of, assignment to write about the Stations of the Cross --

LUCAS: Yeah, one particular station: the sentencing, but it was part of this larger exhibit.

JACOB: Like, the Stations of the Cross, it's like -- It's kind of these discrete parts that fit together to form this, you know, the overall story --

LUCAS: Yeah, yeah.

JACOB: -- and then the song also has kind of multiple parts. Do you think there's a relationship there, or am I just --

LUCAS: Probably yes. It's a -- What is it called? The medieval -- They used to call it the Great Chain of Being, the microcosm, macrocosm, so, you know, that's probably part of it. You know, this is -- This is interesting -- this is the first time I've been asked to interpret my own music. I feel so -- I don't know. I don't feel like I should have the authority to interpret my own music. But I think that's a totally right on way of looking at it, because the Stations of the Cross is already about multiplicity of perspective. It's already about, I don't know how to say it, I think of it a bit like Rashomon. I mean, it's unfolding in time, it's not like it's always looping back to the same moment, but, yeah, you are dealing with an overarching narrative, and yet are these discrete moments, and maybe that was just in the back of my mind as I was writing the song. And I just have always, as much as possible, tried to get around the verse/chorus/verse/chorus option. Sometimes that is what the song wants to be.

JACOB: Yeah. Have you written other songs that have kind of been in parts like this?

LUCAS: A few times, and, in fact, as I was writing the song, I realized there's a specific subgenre in my music that builds. You know, it'll start with like one or two instruments, and I'll build to, like, a crescendo. And so, I think this song has something of that. You know, I tend to gravitate toward that. But I think that's why I was glad I came up with the fourth section, because that kind of took it somewhere new. You'll find a lot of my references are Beatles songs. So, like, "A Day in the Life" is the archetype of this kid of song, right, where it starts off just with John on the piano and guitar, and then it sounds like the end of the world by the end, with the whole orchestra, and that's it, right?

[FINAL CHORD OF 'A DAY IN THE LIFE' BY THE BEATLES PLAYS]

LUCAS: And that's part of my DNA, and in a lot of my songs will just -- If I'm not careful to craft it a little bit, and disguise the origin, I'll want to do that. So, you know, i -- Little things, like the fourth section of the song, help me to make sure that each song has its own character, while, I guess, also having, like, a family resemblance to the other songs. I was playing it for my wife, and she was digging all of it, and I could tell she just thought that that part of [sings] "What do you have to say?" in the third section wasn't quite working, so that was what pushed me to come up with, instead of [sings] "What do you have to say?", like, [sings a different melody] "What do you have to say?" -- shorter and hostile, and from there, the third section became more of the heavier, because once I had that hostility, I felt like the third section wanted to be all about distortion and snare , and ... I don't know. I don't often write songs that are that are inspired by 90s rock, but I grew up in that era, you know? And the third section is definitely inspired by the music I actually grew up with, because I also had Dylan, and the Beatles, and Frank Sinatra in my house, you know, but Soundgarden and Nirvana -- like, that was the stuff, and Red Hot Chili Peppers, and Oasis -- all that stuff was what my peers were actually listening to, so I guess the third section is kind of my salute to that era.

[EXCERPT FROM 'STRANGER IN THE COUNTRY' PLAYS:]

What do you have to say?

LUCAS: That's another challenge, because when we do it live, it's going to sound different than it does on the record.

JACOB: Yeah, have you played it out?

LUCAS: We did once. We did it once, about a month ago, and that was literally a week after we recorded it in the studio. And it was good! It just feels different. It's difficult, first, because there's so many different sections with their own moods, and I think, when you're in the studio, you can layer those moods, and then when you're performing it live, you have to be a little bit schizophrenic. [laughs] Maybe you have to be a bit schizophrenic in general, as a musician, if you want to express a lot of different things, but especially with a song that's going from, you know, this dreamy state, to this interrogation, to this much more kind of alarming, heavier, third section. I think that's one of my goals, is to nail that in the performance.

[EXCERPT FROM 'STRANGER IN THE COUNTRY' PLAYS]

LUCAS: David really is a great drummer, and I kind of put a lot on his plate, because he had to learn this song in 24 hours, complete with different twists, and we did it in -- we did his whole part in -- well, it was in two chunks, but it was one take for each chunk. Sections 2 and 3 were one take, and section 4 was another take. But, yeah, he nailed it! [laughs]

[EXCERPT FROM 'STRANGER IN THE COUNTRY' PLAYS:]

... a king don't need to pray, A king don't need to pray.

LUCAS: The second section of this song is Pilate speaking, and he's kind of -- I wanted it to be more of rapid fire interrogation, so that's why, you know, there's fewer spaces in between the phrases, and the notes are shorter.

[EXCERPT FROM 'STRANGER IN THE COUNTRY' PLAYS:]

Better find the right words to say,

LUCAS: You know, I had this idea -- very martial, you know, almost taking it into an image of, like, a Roman military, you know, with those -- beating the drums of war.

[EXCERPT FROM 'STRANGER IN THE COUNTRY' PLAYS]

LUCAS: What I like about his drumming in the second section, is that he has the menace, but it's not over the top, yet. And then the third section -- Yeah. I mean, he's just banging the shit out of those drums.

[EXCERPT FROM 'STRANGER IN THE COUNTRY' PLAYS:]

First he was silent as a stone cold killer, Or a killjoy filler for the main man. And then our ...

LUCAS: It started with playing with syllables. Like, I was just watching my niece, this video of my niece, and she's trying to sing along to "The Wheels of the Bus", and it's just, and she's not even two years old, and it really struck me -- You know, before we learned to speak as a way of communicating with each other, we're just copying adults' syllables, you know? And we're just playing with sound. That's how language starts for each person, and a lot of time that's how, I guess that's how my songs start. So I was playing with "killjoy" -- "kill", "fill" ... you know, that kind of thing. It's a funny line, when I look back at it, because the word "kill", right, that's, like, a badass word. You know, it connotes badass-ness. But then when you link it to joy -- "killjoy" -- it's almost like, if you really break it down, the first part sounds like it's badass and then it ends up like a wet noodle, you know what I mean?

JACOB: Right.

LUCAS: There's a disillusionment inside -- that's how it seems to me, anyway. I don't know why parsing of "killjoy" is accurate or not, but that's how it feels to me.

JACOB: Sort of the thing that I like about it is, like: Right. But those images are kind of opposed, you know. Like, "the stone-cold killer" and "the killjoy filler" -- Like, "the killjoy filler for the main man" -- I'm just kind of picturing, like, you know, an opening act for the guy that everyone is there to really see.

LUCAS: Exactly. Exactly. No, that's exactly it, you know? And that's the part of the story -- you know, the story that has been told over, and over, and over, and sometimes terribly, you know -- this story of the Passion of Christ, that I think is so interesting, is that, like, the characters in the story have these two simultaneous views of this person: That, on one hand, he's a criminal, and he's a threat, and, you know, might even be a terrorist. You know, because the church tradition now is that he was crucified with two thieves, but the original word is a little closer to revolutionary, right? So, on one hand, they see him as a threat. On the other hand, you know, he's a joke. He's seen as a buffoon. You know, that's why the Roman soldiers, they say, "OK, hail, king of the Jews. Whatever." And they whip him. And it's both at the same time, and that was just always so interesting to me, that the climax of this story in the Gospels is this problem of perception. You know, that this person at the center of it is simultaneously seen as such a huge threat, and also a massive joke. And, not only that, but that's the center of this sacred story. You know, I've always thought it was so strange that, effectively, what this Holy Week story is about, is commemorating, and even treating as sacred, blasphemy: Celebrating the fact that God is being treated both as a criminal and as a joke. You know, both as a killer and a killjoy. And, honestly, you know, in my own spiritual practice, sometimes God looks like both at the same time, too, whenever you see something -- a natural disaster -- or when I do, you know, the killer part, and then other times the killjoy part, and then other times it's, like, something else entirely. That's my experience of it. The last couple of lines.

[EXCERPT FROM 'STRANGER IN THE COUNTRY' PLAYS:]

She didn't have the right time, Cause the time you were serving was the right kind.

LUCAS: "She didn't have the right time, because the time you were serving was the right kind." Because I remember, I actually worked a long time to figure out how to close that, because I think -- I was playing with time, and, at first, it was, like, "She didn't have the right time, but you said, you know, but you had the right time," and, you know, dumb things like that, and then I realized, you know, in the context of the song, "she didn't have the right time" means that she thinks that it's the middle of the night, but it seems like, in the dream, she's meeting Christ, and Christ has been waiting there for a long time. So that's what she means by "she didn't have the right time." But then "serving time" is different, right? Serving time is prison, and serving time is the law. That's what is really interesting, and will, in some way, always be interesting to me about this story, which is that it's about serving time.

[EXCERPT FROM 'STRANGER IN THE COUNTRY' PLAYS:]

... silent as a stone cold killer ...

JACOB: So, if people would like to hear more of your music, what should they do?

LUCAS: People can go to www.brotherkmusic.com, and that's kind of a one stop for videos, concert announcements, you know, new releases. They also go to my Bandcamp: brotherk.bandcamp.com, and help me stave off penury by purchasing my product.

JACOB: I recommend it.

LUCAS: [laughs] Thank you. Oh, right -- and of course, you know, the usual: Facebook, Twitter. They're both facebook.com/brotherkmusic, twitter.com/brotherkmusic.

JACOB: OK. Well, cool. Well, my name's Jacob Haller, and I have music, and other podcasts, and things. You can find out about all that stuff at jacobhaller.com, and I have a website devoted to this podcast, tellmeaboutyoursong.com, and I also have a blog where I post link -- you know, I'll post links to all of Lucas's websites and whatnot at yoursongpodcast.tumblr.com. And, with all that said, we're going to go out and listen to the entire song we've been talking about: "Stranger from the Country", from the Brother K. Melee. Thanks for listening.

['STRANGER IN THE COUNTRY' BY THE BROTHER K MELEE PLAYS IN FULL -- LYRICS ARE ON BANDCAMP]

JACOB: Do you remember how we met, by the way?

LUCAS: Yes I do.

JACOB: Yeah.

LUCAS: We were at -- man, what -- okay what's the radio station?

JACOB: WFMU.

LUCAS: WFMU! Right. Their talent show. Yeah, that was fun. That was my first time doing anything like that, and, you know, that was my only time I've ever done one of those variety show kind of situations. I just remember being very frantic ...

JACOB: Yeah.

LUCAS: ... for the whole evening, because, you know, they thrust you on stage, and give like three minutes to set up, and they didn't have the hook, but I kept imagining someone backstage with, like, a hook, you know, ready to --

JACOB: Right, and someone was going to play the trombone if we went on too long ...

LUCAS: Yeah. That was a useful exercise, actually. I feel like, if I did that every three months, it would keep me on my toes as a performer.

[EXCERPT FROM 'THE SEVEN SECOND DELAY ALMOST AMATEUR HOUR' FROM WFMU PLAYS:]

KEN: Rita did great. Our next guest, Andy -- our first electric act of the evening -- He brings Rock & Roll with a literacy problem -- Please welcome Brother K!

[APPLAUSE. AN ORGANIST PLAYS AS THE BAND GETS ON STAGE. THE BROTHER K MELEE LAUNCHES INTO THEIR SONG 'MARGERY'.]

[yoursongpodcast]

Visit Original Link

For 'Tell Me About Your Song' #80, songwriter Zoë Lewis talks about her song 'Plastic Soup', which is from her album 'The Sound of Wings'.

In the course of our discussion, we touched on the following topics:

The Coastal Studies Center in Provincetown

5 Gyres (the organization)

Five gyres (the oceanic currents)

Plastic smog aka plastic soup

The Great Pacific Garbage Patch: not how it's usually pictured, but still terrible

Plastic in the food chain

Cole Porter

Zoë's song 'Snow White' (aka 'The Day Snow White Said The F Word')

For more information about Zoë Lewis, her music, her videos, her two musicals, her upcoming shows, and her albums, go to her website at http://zoelewis.com/.

The 'Tell Me About Your Song' icon was designed by Shaenon K. Garrity.

If you want more information about your host, Jacob Haller, then check out my web page, my facebook page, or my twitter account.

'Tell Me About Your Song' on iTunes - rate and review us!

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Episode Transcript:

[BEGINNING OF 'PLASTIC SOUP' PLAYS:]

Swirling around in the beautiful blue somewhere between the equator and you there's a tear in the sky where the albatross flew man and his madness makes nightmares come true unfortunately this is so and that's why I want you to know... There is an island the size of Texas a floating island of piles and piles of plastic it's simply drastic, it's not fantastic because the fishes all eat plastic soup and all the ...

['PLASTIC SOUP' CONTINUES PLAYING UNDER THE FOLLOWING]

JAKE: Hello, and welcome to Tell Me About Your Song, the podcast where I talk to musicians and songwriters about a song they've written. Today I'm talking to Zoë Lewis, and the song she'll be talking about is named ...

['PLASTIC SOUP' CRESCENDOES, THEN FADES OUT:]

... plastic soup! ...

JAKE: Plastic Soup, and is from her album 'The Sound of Wings'. So where would you like to start, Zoë?

ZOË: When you're a songwriter, you start seeing songs all around, and when you get moved by something, or angry about something, you, you know, you're lucky enough to have a platform to be heard -- to put your voice out there. It's lovely! So even if 10 people hear it, that's ok -- 20, 100, you know, and then it escalates. We all have our stories. So, anyway, I'm -- I mean -- I'm pleased with this song, because it's a fun song, but it's Zoë Lewis being political, as much as I am political in my music -- I mean, I am political, in a fun way. You know, people think, "Oh, she's just a funny songwriter," but, you know, you still say your things, you can ease them in, and get your points across -- get them to the people. I'm from a little village on the south coast of England -- I come from the seaside. Now I live in Provincetown, Cape Cod, also by the sea. I need to be living on the edge, and I always gravitate towards beautiful beach towns. Anyway. I love my nature, and, of course, you know, I find plastic all the time, walking on the beach, and pick it up -- have always done so -- traveled the world a lot -- went to India, not too long ago. Couldn't believe how much plastic was strewn all over the place. I mean, everywhere you go, you find it. So I volunteered for the Coastal Studies Center in Provincetown, and they did a beach clean, but it was a fascinating beach clean. I mean, it's pristine -- it looks pristine, at first sight, but when you go underneath the seaweed, and start searching, you'll find all the micro plastic. We found -- In Cape Cod, we get a lot of Maine fishing stuff, because so much is made of plastic -- things used to be made of rope in the old days. Now, you know, everything -- everything's plastic. We use so much plastics. We started documenting the different plastic -- every tiny piece -- the wrappers, the straws, the bottle caps, unidentifiable plastic Styrofoam ...

[EXCERPT FROM 'PLASTIC SOUP' PLAYS:]

... on red balloons, plastic cups for plastic tea, just throw it all into the sea!

ZOË: Anyway, it was very interesting. At the end, you know, when you tally it all up, what you find are where the currents come from, you know, in different times of year, in different beaches on the Cape ... So, anyway, we brought a huge boat back, laden, from the tip of Cape Cod, to the main part of the land, and then, every year, I've been volunteering, and I was really moved by their work, and, you know, I started looking up statistics, and I was just blown away, and that's when I discovered 5 Gyres, which is a great organization, and the Gyres, you know, if you didn't know about them -- all the plastic that goes into the ocean, heads out to the currents, and there were five large gyres where the currents meet, and that's where all the plastic goes, and it never breaks down, because plastic doesn't break down, it just gets smaller and smaller and smaller. So some call it plastic smog, some call it plastic soup. So I imagined the ocean full of plastic soup and, you know, I read a lot of stuff -- the North Pacific garbage patch -- they were saying that

[EXCERPT FROM 'PLASTIC SOUP' PLAYS:]

There is an island the size of Texas a floating island of piles and piles of plastic

ZOË: Now, apparently, it's -- that's, you know, fabricated. But it's gigantic, anyway. And it's not really an island. It's just tons of swirling plastic. And I started looking up more about it, and about all the pollution, and the devastation it causes to the animals, and, you know, the oceans, ocean life -- the fish, of course, and the birds, and the mammals, and the -- They have done experim -- you know, cut the birds open, when they found a dead bird, and found so much plastic in its belly, albatrosses, and turtles, and I collected all the info, and I wrote my song, and it really kind of took off! I made a little video. it went viral, and it's used in schools now, and now I organize -- because, you know, because I sing it all the time, and and people come, and now I'm a advocate for cleaning beaches, and I organize beach cleans, and it just -- For me, it's just -- I don't even feel like joining an organization. I mean, I have played now for 5 Gyres, but, really, it's, like, we have the power! We can just pick up plastic ourselves! We can do it. I mean, if everyone just picked up a few bits, then the beautiful nature would be much better. We can make a dent in the plastic. But most importantly, really -- and particularly when I read about it -- you know, it's fine to pick up the plastic, but, really, we shouldn't use plastic. You know, always at the gigs, I'm given a plastic water bottle to drink from. And now i refuse it. I tell my band, don't -- We're not having wood, you know. So I have to make sure we've got glass, or we've got our own reusable water bottles. You know, you can stand up there and be a hypocrite. It's very easy to put be one.

[EXCERPT FROM 'PLASTIC SOUP' PLAYS:]

And the solution to this pollution? Stop using plastic, cut down on plastic

JAKE: Yeah. The tone of it is kind of like -- I mean it -- It reminds me -- You know, if you tweaked it a bit, it would be, like, a super villain song, right?

ZOË: [snorts]

JAKE: Because you can just sing it with such glee, and, yet it's about this terrible thing. Like, do you know what I'm talking about?

ZOË: Yeah. It's evil.

JAKE: Right.

ZOË: Yeah.

[EXCERPT FROM 'PLASTIC SOUP' PLAYS:]

And all the seagulls and the tiny turtles colossal whales are full of plastic

ZOË: And everyone's screaming out "No" by the end of the song, [laughs] because I make them.

[EXCERPT FROM 'PLASTIC SOUP' PLAYS:]

Do you want some soup? NO Would you like some soup? NO Fancy some soup? NO We don't want your soup!

ZOË: That's funny that it's a super villain song. Yeah, well, it's ominous. I mean, it's ominous, but, you know, I don't want to just say, "Oh, it's terrible. We're killing the Earth. Bye."

JAKE: Yeah.

ZOË: But, really, that's what the song's about, but it's in a Cole Porteresque sort of way, with funny rhymes. And you don't turn people off then, and it still gives you some hope that you can change the world, and that you can -- You can be positive, even though you're screaming "No!", and make a change.

JAKE: Mm-hmm. Did it have that kind of feel from the beginning?

ZOË: Well, you know, I'm English, so it's, like, "Would you like some soup? Fancy some soup?" You know, force feeding people soup, and you're, like, screaming "No!". And always like that part. You know, like, even though my music's not punk, I have a little punk rock in me, and I like to "No!", you know. I like to get people screaming "No!" and be angry. But, you know, with tongue in cheek. I mean, I had fun writing -- you know, I like to rhyme, and I had fun writing some of the lines, but, yeah. I knew it how it was going. When I get the chorus, I usually know how I'm going to add to it.

JAKE: Yeah. And it's also -- I feel like, I mean, that there are so many words in the song. I feel like the avalanche of words also kind of gets across this avalanche of plastic.

ZOË: Huh.

JAKE: I don't know. Is that --? A lot of these are connections that are made up in my mind, but I just sort of put them out there.

ZOË: Oh, good. I'm very -- I love -- I love that you think that. [laughter] Oh, yes, of course it was meant, then, to ... [laughter] No. I actually cut a verse at the end, because it was like, "Come on. It's getting too long." Because I was having fun. You know, this one just spilled off, and it was fun to write. I enjoyed it. I mean, I knew what I wanted to write. There's so many facts you could put in. I mean, it's quite factual, so, you know, basically, I'm just saying all the different creatures are full of plastic, and we're turning into plastic, you know, and it just -- from the food chain, and the jellyfishes, it just gets passed down. And it's a whole plastic society, anyway, and you can read that in so many ways, and we're getting so out of touch with nature. So, yeah, I knew. At this point it was clear.

JAKE: Mm-hmm.

ZOË: I mean, it's just a simple song, but it was written -- I mean, I love the Cole Porter and the rhyming, and, my gosh, there's a lot of words, so if I start the song too fast, especially when I get to the bridge, like, I have a hard time breathing. [both laugh] And, what is it, I go:

Plastic bags, plastic wraps, plastic bottles, plastic caps, styrofoam and lobster traps North Pacific garbage patch! [takes a deep breath] plastic forks, plastic spoons, plastic string on red balloons, plastic cups for plastic tea, just throw it all into the sea!

So it's -- I have to keep calm, and not be too excited, before the song, otherwise I'm race-horsing through it. My favorite line is "Even the porpoise is feeling nauseous." I was pleased when nauseous rhymed with porpoise.

[EXCERPT FROM 'PLASTIC SOUP' PLAYS:]

even the porpoise is feeling nauseous because he can't digest the plastic soup and in the food chain....

ZOË: The porpoise feeling nauseous -- I do like it -- because when I deliver it in shows, I kind of linger, and people give me a little giggle. They give me a little titter at that point. I'm always pleased when a line works. You know, there's usually one point in a song, they like it. But I end, you know, even though it's all "No!", I end up saying, well, we can make a change, and we can -- You know, we've got to cut down on plastic! We can save the world. You know, when I organize beach cleans now, tons of people come, and it's really, it's fun, and then they start their own beach cleans, and then they -- You know, I did a gig in Boston, and the people were like, "Can we do a collection for the 5 Gyres?" "Yeah." You know, people -- It's my pet, you know, thing. People like to put me, they pair me with the plastic pollution now. It's Kind of like, that's what people think: "Hey! You're the beach clean one! Can you do that song?" You know.

JAKE: Mm-hmmm.

ZOE: Good. So I like to -- That's one of the reasons why I chose it, when you asked me, too, because I can get the point across, too, through all the different media.

JAKE: Have you gotten any particularly memorable responses to this one?

ZOË: More that people buy the album, and go back and play it to their classrooms, you know.

JAKE: Yeah. ZOE: And, oh, I did have -- I was contacted from France! It made it to France, for some cleanup group, and they made a video of their beach plane, and they used the song, and then they use it on their website. You know, I always let everyone use it for free. And, yeah, it's out there. So, you never know where a song goes, and who's sharing it. You know, I like to get people to join me on stage, because it shows the more people that help, the more power, or louder, we can be, the more more noise we can make about it, and the more change we can achieve, and everyone's happy to yell "No!" No one wants to keep it like this. So it's universal.

JAKE: Mm-hmmm.

ZOË: I mean, at least the ones who come to my gigs. [laughter] And you don't even have to make an organization. Just go and clean! People often come up to me in Provincetown. They say, "We thought of you the other day. We were dragging plastic off the beach." [chuckles] You know, and then other people are like, "Oh, yeah, since we heard your song, we're gonna go, and -- We always bring three pieces." Because sometimes I say, "Just bring three. You don't have to, you know, bring it all." I mean. But it gets quite addictive. You can't stop. You start seeing more and more of it, and then you can't -- it's -- I always tie it all together, and come back with huge amounts, and then have to call the Rangers and say, "Please, can you come pick it up," because they can't deal with it, you know.

JAKE: Mm-hmmm.

ZOË: And then it goes to show -- And then they always put it on Facebook, and people are like, "Wow." You know, that's another way -- People are, "My God, you found all that stuff." So, I'm like, "Well, you just go and pick some, you'll soon find find a huge pile." So yes. I'm an optimistic, jovial, performer, but this is a bummer. [laughter] It certainly is.

JAKE: Yeah. It's a rough one.

ZOË: I also like to -- You know, try, for a whole gig, I take people on a roller coaster ride, and try and, you know, make some points, and then take them off on a humorous angle, and then hit them in the gut with an emotional song, and then be silly again. You know, it's life.

JAKE: Mm-hmmm.

ZOË: It's life, and that's what I try and do in the show.

JAKE: Yeah. Is there a particular place that this tends to go in a set?

ZOË: Well, on the album, it's the second song. I usually build it -- Because it's got audience participation, I usually leave it till later on. If I'm doing two sets, I'll leave that to the penultimate song of the first set. Maybe near the end of the second set. Depends who's, you know, if there's kids, or what kind of, you know, I tailor-make it for the crowd, but I've had all sorts of people up.

JAKE: Mm-hmm.

ZOË: I've had a whole ton of punk rockers, once, holding to 'No!" signs, and that was great.

JAKE: That sounds fantastic. ZOE: Yeah. [laughter]

JAKE: Because I feel like this song -- you know, it has -- It's not a kids song, per se -- like, there's some sophistication to it -- but I feel like kids also would enjoy, and get the message, and everything, so ...

ZOË: Yeah. I don't write "kids music." I just write music. But I do have a ton of kid fans. I would never want to talk down to kids, and simplify things. But the music's fun, and I find I have lots of kids who come to the shows, and, in the summer, when I play in Provincetown, we do outside gigs, and I have rows and rows of little ones in the front, wanting to come and join in. It's like -- Nowadays, kids music -- Well the, you know -- It's a huge moneymaker. And, you know, nowadays, there's bands that the parents quite like, too. In the old days, they didn't, they couldn't bear kids music. But, you know, I don't classify myself as kids music, but it's, like, for the kids in us. I'm very pleased the kids come. I do have a song called "The Day That Snow White Said The F Word," and that is the most popular song with school children, whether or not their parents like is another ...

JAKE: Not your problem!

ZOË: Not my problem! I don't actually say the F word.

JAKE: No.

[EXCERPT FROM 'SNOW WHITE' PLAYS:]

When she came down to Orlando, she was only just eighteen. Got a room in a condo complex, and a job inside her childhood dream, And she started as a teacup, and she made friends with the spool, and the theme park was an oyster, for her eyes were wider than the moon. And through the little window ...

JAKE: So, if people would like to hear more of your music, what should they do?

ZOË: OK. Well, you can go to www.zoelewis.com, and I've got all my albums up there, there's videos, I've written two musicals -- there's information on that -- and I do a 1920s show, too. And I'm touring all over the world, all the time, in between picking up plastic.

JAKE: Yes. And I saw Zoë when she performed in Providence, and that was a great show, so I recommend you seek her out!

ZOË: Hooray!

JAKE: So my name's Jacob Haller, and, if you're interested in my music, it's at music.jwgh.org, and I also have a kind of umbrella website at jacobhaller.com where you can find the music, and all my podcasts, and all the other crazy stuff I'm doing. Tell Me About Your Song has its own website at tellmeaboutyoursong.com, and you can find it and rate it in iTunes, and any place where podcast can be found, which I hope you do. And, with all that said, we're going to go out by listening to the song that we've been talking about in full: "Plastic Soup" by Zoë Lewis, from the album "The Sound of Wings." Thanks for listening!

["PLASTIC SOUP" PLAYS IN FULL]

JAKE: Yeah, and it's always kind of interesting -- like, you know, the song that she chose to talk about is one of the relatively serious ones, and

ZOË: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

JAKE: It's interesting. I mean, I -- Most of my songs are kind of humorous, as well, so... ZOE: Mm-hmm.

JAKE: I think it's always interesting when someone with more of a humorous bent takes on, you know, something more serious than it --

ZOË: Yeah.

JAKE: It's --

ZOË: Well, it's -- I think it's, like, also when, I mean, if you just think quickly, when you're not, you know -- You think, "Oh, well, I'd better do that has some, that has a story to it. I've got to talk a while about it." [laughter] You know? It's like --

JAKE: Yes. [laughter]

ZOË: Eh. What can I say? I better be saying something important. [laughter]

JAKE: Yeah.

ZOË: Like, it's about a child's tadpole. I just saw a tadpole, and it was nice, so I wanted to write about it. [laughs] There we are! End of interview, thank you very much. [laughter]

JAKE: Yup. All right. This is the fifteen second --

ZOË: Yeah.

JAKE: -- episode that everyone's been waiting for.

ZOË: Yeah.

[yoursongpodcast]

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For 'Tell Me About Your Song' #79, songwriter Marian Call talked about her song 'Oregon Trail', which is from her album 'Standing Stones'.

Wikipedia has articles about the actual historical Oregon Trail, as well as the 1970s/1980s education game 'The Oregon Trail'. The idea of the 'Oregon Trail Generation' was described in a 2015 article named 'The Oregon Trail Generation: Life Before and After Mainstream Tech' by Anna Garvey in Social Media Week.

I also recommend an essay that Marian Call wrote about her song 'Standing Stones', which is the song that follows 'Oregon Trail' on the Standing Stones album.

In our discussion, I made reference to Marian Call's interview on 'Make Me Smart', which you can hear on the Marketplace website.

More information about Marian Call and her music can be found on her website, where you can also find out about any upcoming shows. You can get her music on Bandcamp, as well as most other places where music is sold. She is also on twitter, facebook, and Patreon.

The 'Tell Me About Your Song' icon was designed by Shaenon K. Garrity.

If you want more information about your host, Jacob Haller, then check out my web page, my facebook page, or my twitter account.

'Tell Me About Your Song' on Apple Podcasts - rate and review us!

'Tell Me About Your Song' on stitcher - rate and review us!

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Episode Transcript:

[BEGINNING OF 'OREGON TRAIL' PLAYS:]

And we set out in the springtime with our bindles and our boots, And we reveled in our poverty, abandoning our roots. A brand new path, adventurers, All lonely, bold, and brave, Breaking free and making do, And telling tales of how we'd save ourselves.

JACOB: Hello and welcome to Tell Me About Your Song, the podcast where I talk to musicians and songwriters about a song they've written. Today, I'm talking to Marian Call, and the song she'll be talking about is named 'Oregon Trail'. So, where would you like to start, Marian?

MARIAN: This is part of a record called 'Standing Stones,' and, in that record, one of the things I'm interested in looking at is the stories we tell ourselves. Like, the myths that we have about who we are, and the myths of, you know, Western culture, myths of America. And this is one of those myths, the Oregon Trail, right? It's about being stron,g and independent, and adventurous, and setting out on your own, and conquering the landscape, and finding a place for yourself -- You know, all the things that we -- All things we want to do, in sort of our individualist society. It's about self actualization, and about claiming a space in the world, and that myth is so important to us. But I've been thinking a lot about how it doesn't necessarily hold up, either to our experience, or to a good model. Like, it might seem exciting to think of being a pioneer, and going out, and, you know, finding your own way in the world, but the more you actually read about what it would have been like back then, about (a) how horrid it was; (b) about the myths that the pioneers were often being sold about "Free land out west!" when, of course, that land was already occupied, and about the idea that it was our destiny to command and control the landscape and to have, you know, a country from sea to sea. That was not a given; that was a something that we decided, and then we made it real. And that may or may not have been a decision that sat well with everyone who was affected by it. Part of why I wanted to write about this was that it is one of our founding mythologies, you know? It's a real historic event, but it's also a mythos that is larger than this one event, and that's why I wanted to tackle it, and both honor it, and dismantle it, at the same time. [laughs] You know, every now and then, those think pieces come along about generations, and what millennials are doing, and what Gen X is doing, and everything like that, and I was part of this cohort -- and a lot of my friends were, too -- that fell kind of between Generation X and Y and millennials --

JACOB: Mmm-hm.

MARIAN: -- and we never got a name, but I still feel like our experience is kind of fundamentally different, and we're too young to be Generation X, but definitely too old to have a similar experience to millennials, in a lot of ways. And I read several articles in which some scholars and demographers argue for the existence of a Generation Oregon Trail, which is kind of a small cohort. I think it's like 1976 to 1987, or something like that -- or 1986.

JACOB: Mmm-hm.

MARIAN: And that describes the generation of people who started school -- like, started, you know, their first few years of school -- without networked computing, but, by the time they completed school, the Internet was fully fledged and running. And so, like, kids after us grew up typing from the time they were, you know, very, very small. They don't remember before computers in the home, and before computers in school, to do all their tasks. In fact they stopped needing to even offer keyboarding classes in a lot of schools. They didn't teach typing anymore, because the kids would just arrive at school already knowing how to type.

JACOB: Mmm.

MARIAN: And that was not true for my group! We had to go through hours and hours of typing classes, Mavis Beacon and all the rest. So this song is about the peculiar life of that particular generation. I think this cohort of people is really cool, and inspiring, and interesting, and innovative, and has made a lot of cool things, but at the same time, there's a little a little bit of a sense of opportunity drying up, in a lot of ways, and I wanted to write something about that, and I thought the Oregon Trail was a perfect allegory for it. It describes the name of the generation because of that video game we all played, and it also describes a sort of a modern look back at that journey, that has been mythologized as one of the cornerstones of the American story, you know? Did you play Oregon Trail when you were young.

JACOB: Oh yes!

MARIAN: I did, too. Several different generations of it, too, from the, like, big floppy disk, to the little floppy disk, to the hard drive version, to the -- Apparently, someone told me there was an Oregon Trail 2, and, like, an Amazon Trail, and they kind of did a couple of spin offs and sequels, which surprised me. I hadn't heard of those, but --

JACOB: Yeah, I had no idea.

MARIAN: Yeah. Hundreds of people have gotten in touch with me, to tell me, like, how this hit a nostalgia spot for them. So, yeah. I'm kind of revising that history in this song. Like, it starts out really great. It's, you know, 'We set out adventurous --'

[BEGINNING OF 'OREGON TRAIL' PLAYS:]

And we set out in the springtime with our bindles and our boots, And we reveled in our poverty, abandoning our roots. A brand new path, adventurers, All lonely, bold, and brave, Breaking free and making do, And telling tales of how we'd save ourselves.

MARIAN: And then we gradually realised that it wasn't just us. It was everyone else.

['OREGON TRAIL' CONTINUES:]

'Til everybody else we knew Had started on the journey too. Then we were not phenomenal, no, we were not phenomenal. We never were phenomenal, Just part of our whole generation's vague instinctive mass migration. We were not exceptional, no we were not exceptional. We never were exceptional. We were longing longing longing though, And true. We were dreaming that the world was dreaming too.

MARIAN: And maybe we were being brave and individual, and making our own choices, but maybe we were also just part of this kind of global phenomenon that we couldn't really control.

[AN INSTRUMENTAL PART OF 'OREGON TRAIL' CONTINUES BRIEFLY.]

MARIAN: The opening sense of possibility that we had, as young people, when the Internet was new, was very much hit by, you know, two different bubble bursts. First, the Silicon Valley, and kind of that portion of the economy -- realizing, no, the internet doesn't do everything, and it doesn't change everything. It does some things, but not all of them. And then the housing bubble burst -- that, no, we can't all own a home on the income that we have. No, we're never going to pay off our student loans. No, we're never going to get out of credit card debt.

JACOB: Mmm-hm.

MARIAN: No, we're never going to stop moving around the country. I think the number of times a person my age has changed cities is just, like, astounding now. it's really -- it's so different from the generation before. This is also part of a song cycle, and this is kind of in the middle beginning of it, so there's some resolution that answers this song a little bit later in the album. This is in the 'What are we doing?' stage at the late beginning on the record. I wanted it to start feeling like a very wholesome folk song, like -- I'm working on a folk festival this weekend, and I wanted it to sound just like a good old classic tune, you know? Maybe a little more complicated words, but the same chords, and the same feel, as, you know, a Willie Nelson kind of song.

JACOB: And the harmonies, too.

MARIAN: Yeah, the harmonies, exactly, are very straight at the beginning.

[EXCERPT FROM 'OREGON TRAIL' PLAYS:]

Surrendering exceptional to lighten up the load, We woke up ...

[SONG CONTINUES PLAYING IN THE BACKGROUND.]

MARIAN: But the deeper into the song you get, the more your perspective shifts, sort of. I think of it as, like, a moment when the sky opens, and suddenly you realize that the world is so much bigger than you thought.

['OREGON TRAIL CONTINUES:]

And the World Was all a road ...

MARIAN: And that occurs in the middle of the song, and we have this big, kind of -- We have a big, and sort of shocking, key change. It's not the way you would usually change keys from A to E by way of a C major chord, which is not in either key, but it's -- That's the pivot between those two worlds. And it's meant to feel this grand opening into a much larger universe.

[EXCERPT FROM 'OREGON TRAIL' PLAYS:]

We bought some land out west, Though nowhere seemed to feel like home. And digging in the yard we found somebody else's bones. The moment that the shovel hit, We bowed before the things we should have known.

MARIAN: Gradually, our speaker realizes that they thought they were going out into empty space to make a name for themselves, and, in fact, they were going out into someone else's space. And that doesn't feel very good.

[EXCERPT FROM 'OREGON TRAIL' PLAYS:]

Of course we're not the first ones here. We never were the first ones here. Just part of our whole generation's Childish frontier re-creation.

[SONG CONTINUES PLAYING IN THE BACKGROUND.]

MARIAN: But if you don't do that, then there's not enough food, there's not enough security. It's a little bit of a story of getting lost along the way growing up.

['OREGON TRAIL CONTINUES:]

... adventurers We were longing longing longing and so lost We were barely what we needed, and it cost.

MARIAN: And it reminds me of a lot of friends my age. I do have some friends my age who are married and have, you know, houses, and kids, and things. But, you know, coming on 40, it's not nearly as many of us as we thought, right? And a lot of us are not housed, or are moving around the country all the time, you know, not settling in one city, or we're not -- we're divorcing and remarrying, or not settling into a family structure, getting old enough to be like: "Well, I guess I'm not having kids, then," without it really being ever a voluntary choice. I think that's one of those surprises that hits you along the trail, and that's what this song is about. [laughs] After we transition to E, then I start adding chords that are more modern -- chords that were not in the original, sort of, lexicon of vintage country music.

[EXCERPT FROM 'OREGON TRAIL' PLAYS:]

... the first ones here. Just part of our whole generation's Childish frontier re-creation. We were not adventurers. No, we were not adventurers. We never were adventurers! We were longing longing longing ...

MARIAN: So I started adding, like, a flat seven chord, a D major chord, and I start adding minor IV chords, and it gets, basically, just messier and messier. It's like the chord progression sort of starts to disintegrate. And, at the end, the harmonies get weirder, and weirder, and weirder, and then the harmonies kind of fall apart, too. And the two backing voices kind of abandon the main voice, and wander off on their own, and get lost.

[EXCERPT FROM 'OREGON TRAIL' PLAYS:]

No, we have not found shelter yet. We've eaten what we meant to plant, And the twelve ages of man are circling hungry overhead -- And grandmother would disapprove. We will make no more miles today.

MARIAN: It's really -- it's fun. It's like the oxen have run away. [both laugh] Yeah.

JACOB: Yeah.

MARIAN: It's actually a reference to a videogame, too. There's a lot of videogames in this song, not just Oregon Trail. I got hooked on 'Don't Starve', which is a ridiculous -- [chuckles] It's just, it's a very silly videogame. It's a survival game --

JACOB: Uh-huh.

MARIAN: -- and I played way too much of it in the year that I was writing this record, and it informed a lot of my thinking about just, like, what it really does take to survive. When you eat the seeds that you were supposed to put in the ground, you know, you survive another day, but you've jeopardized your future, and that's very much, you know, me and my other, kind of like, late 30s friends, having to spend our savings, or still being in debt, without any sort of assets. And it's not meant to be too hopeless, but it is meant to be, like, a moment of clarity, that I set out on this journey, and realizing we're not as far as we thought we were, and we haven't found anywhere to stop and plant.

JACOB: And it says, "The 12 ages of man are circling hungry overhead."

MARIAN: Uh-huh. And I have 11 songs that are divided by those 12 ages of man.

JACOB: Ah.

MARIAN: Yeah. I really worked on the structure of this one, because I like the idea of -- The 12 Ages of Man is sort of a late medieval pre-Renaissance Western European idea that, if a person lived all 12 ages of man, they could get to be 72. So there were 12 ages, and they were six years each, and they corresponded to, like, the months of the year, and they corresponded to the seasons, and to the horoscope, and to a map of the body, and everything. They sort of connected all these things that weren't necessarily connected. But I liked that idea, and so I have these 11 songs that are about different stages of life, and this one is very much the, like, getting out of college, and then realizing that it's not as easy as you thought, you know? [laughs]

JACOB: Mmm-hm.

MARIAN: Late 20s/early 30s. You've accomplished so much, and you've been set on this grand trajectory, and then you get out there in the world, and you're like, "Oh! Hang on!" it's kind of a letdown. But there's more to come in the story.

JACOB: You were talking about this in terms of it being part of a song cycle, so: What comes before this, and what comes after it?

MARIAN: What comes before this, is a song about about childhood, about being young, exuberant, and feeling like you can fill up your whole world, or like the world cannot contain you. It's a song called 'No Paper'. The original working title was 'Lauds', which is the name of the prayer for that hour of the day, that corresponds to the Twelve Ages of Man, that corresponds to all this big structure that I was kind of plugging into, from early, like, Renaissance literature. [laughs] You can leave that out, if you want.

[EXCERPT FROM 'NO PAPER' PLAYS:]

There is no paper big enough for what I'm going to draw today.

MARIAN: It's a crazy rhythm jam, actually, with very little melody, but it has, like, a horn section, and some really wild harmonies, and just insane electric guitar. It's a very, like, expressive, creative, kind of Jackson Pollock-y song, about being young, and feeling full of possibility. It's also about protests, and protest sign,s and marching. The line is "There is no paper big enough for what I'm going to draw today." And it's just -- There's nothing that can contain me, or that can contain my message, and, you know, that feels very youthful to me. Both about, like, little kids, before they learn that -- Before they learn that art is supposed to look a certain way, and they're just like scribbling filling up the whole page, and, like, just the energy that people have, like, in college, when they're learning everything, and excited, and have a lot of passion, and so: Yeah. It's kind of a younger age.

[EXCERPT FROM 'OREGON TRAIL' PLAYS:]

We never were adventurers. We were longing longing longing and so lost.

MARIAN: And then, we transition to this song, which is a little bit, like, "Well, we thought we were going to go out into the world and conquer it, and then we had another think, after we got out there."

JACOB: Mm hmm.

MARIAN: And the song after it is the title track. It's called 'Standing Stones.'

[BEGINNING OF 'STANDING STONES' PLAYS:]

We drew nine lines from east to west We drew nine from north to south And we stitched our names in concrete veins Through miles and miles and miles of ground

MARIAN: It sort of reconciles that. It's about how our impulse to build things, and make things, and design, and scratch, and leave our mark, and change the environment -- how that impulse is really universal -- we all have it -- and also how it's impermanent. Like, it's going to pass away, but that doesn't matter, because it's just what we do, and that's beautiful. It's really, it's a validation of humanity, in the middle of acknowledging that we have a finite span, so, yep! And then it goes on, kind of more into, like, middle age, and then midlife crisis, of course, and then into a kind of acceptance. Some of the other songs on this record are much, much less complex. This one's through composed. Like, the chords don't necessarily repeat, and the lyrics don't repeat very much. But, yeah, it does reward repeat listening. It's definitely a journey. And hopefully catchy, too. Like, people will be leaving humming it, even though they can't remember any other words because they don't repeat!

JACOB: Have you played this song out?

MARIAN: Yeah, we play it out, and it's hard to communicate that groove change --

JACOB: Mmm.

MARIAN: -- So I just kind of have to do without it. But that's part of why I was so excited to put it on a record, too, and have it sound different on the record. I like doing it out. I wish -- I would love -- I would just die to do it with a trio --

JACOB: Mmm-hm.

MARIAN: -- you know, so we could sing all the harmonies. But that's, again, the joy of getting to record it! There's a video for it, that I really am proud of. Pat Race made an Oregon Trail style video of it, and, as it happened, somehow someone pinged the son of the man who created Oregon Trail -- one of the two men who created Oregon Trail. And he emailed me, and then his dad e-mailed me! So I got a message from the creator of Oregon Trail, which was great! [laughs]

JACOB: Wow, that's awesome! What did they say?

MARIAN: They really liked it! That was -- that made me happy! I was shocked and surprised. His name is Don Rawitsch, and he got in touch just to say that he was honored by the tribute, and that he thought it was interesting. Says, "Thanks for the tribute to the pioneers, and the game I co-invented 45 years ago."

JACOB: Wow.

MARIAN: And I can't believe it was 45 years ago, because I experienced it more like 33 years ago.

JACOB: Mmm-hm.

MARIAN: But yeah. [laughs]

JACOB: Yeah, that video is great. I watched -- Like, I started watching it, and then I kind of had it on in the background, and I thought it was just the actual game, and then I went back and looked at it, and I was, like, "Wait a minute!" One of the things is a cellphone charger, and --

MARIAN: Yep, yep, yep, there's --

JACOB: -- and you come across this pile of skulls, I think, right around where the modulation occurs.

MARIAN: Yeah. It takes some twists. We were hoping, actually, that, at the beginning, people would think it was just kind of a GIF that repeats, you know, and doesn't really go anywhere.

JACOB: Mmm-hm.

MARIAN: But, gradually, it kind of gets wilder, and wilder, and takes you out of our safe little sweet country song beginning.

JACOB: I think that this idea is one that I stole from Kai Ryssdal, because I listened to your interview -- or, I didn't know if it was an interview, per se -- but when you were on "Make Me Smart" --

MARIAN: That was fun. [chuckles]

JACOB: -- but he kind of asked you about, you know, being in Alaska, and kind of engaging in this sort of pioneering spirit that's involved in living up there.

MARIAN: Well, I think the connection is very much that, if ever there were a place where that American mythos is embodied, it's Alaska, for sure. There's there's some very bold, strong, self-reliant, competent people up here, you know? You can love them or hate them, but people kind of assume that you can split your own wood, and maybe fly a plane, and it's weirdly, like, one of the most and least sexist places I've ever been.

JACOB: Mmm-hm.

MARIAN: The most, because we have really difficult rates of abuse, and things like that, here, because there's a lot of substance issues. But it's also the least, in that people -- People here very much assume that I run my own business. They don't think I'm arm candy when I go to a party, right?

JACOB: Mmm-hm.

MARIAN: We've had women politicians at a higher rate than a lot of other states. We have tons of women business owners. And if you're out at a cabin, people won't flinch when they give you a tough job. They won't be surprised if you pick up something heavy to carry it, you know? It's just very -- It's nice! I like it! I like the presumption of my competence, even if I'm not always competent. [both laugh] But the funny thing is, up here in the land of the most independent people anywhere, is where I find that people are very, very clear on the fact that we're not independent. None of us are independent. We all rely on each other, and we're all connected in really concrete ways, like, you know, so and so does this job, and so and so does that job, and, in a tiny town, they're the only people who do it. We need them, and we rely on them, so we have to take care of them. I know people who have literally gone out into the woods, to their own property, to clear logs, use those logs to turn them into a cabin, live in that cabin in the summertime, you know, and have just cut every board themselves, right? But those people are the ones who are the most aware that if they, you know, if they slip up and hurt themselves, and they don't have a friend, then they're screwed. You know, if they don't have help -- if they don't have everyone else to come over and assist at the crucial moment -- then their house is not going to get put up. You can't do it yourself, in this -- The kind of twofold lesson here is, you can be as independent as you want, but you can't do it yourself, and especially when nature is really a factor, the way it is here. And I really like that. So that's what -- that's kind of what this whole record is about, is, you can you can be as independent and strong as you like, but we still need each other. Alaska has had a huge influence on this record. [laughs] It's like embracing it, and at the same time unmasking, the pioneering spirit, as being a lot more complicated, and a lot less pure, and not at all what we dreamed it was.

JACOB: Mmm-hm.

MARIAN: It doesn't look how we thought, in the movies. [chuckles] In the video game.

JACOB: Right. So, if people would like to hear more of your music, what should they do?

MARIAN: You can hear more of my music -- I have ten albums now, and then a few singles -- at bandcamp.com/mariancall. So just look me up on bandcamp, you can find me on YouTube, you can find me on Twitter, you can find me at a Facebook page, and you can find me on Patreon, now. That's new. The new album is just on Bandcamp, as of right now. It should be up in a lot of other locations very shortly. You know iTunes, and Spotify, and all that.

JACOB: Great. And I'll put links to all of that. I put together a blog post --

MARIAN: Oh, excellent. Thank you!

JACOB: -- for each episode, so I'll put links to that, and that blog is at yoursongpodcast.tumblr.com [spells it]. So my name is Jacob Haller, and I have a website at JacobHaller.com. You can find all my music there, or on bandcamp, and links to my other podcasts and projects, and, as I mentioned, there's a Tumblr blog for the show notes at yoursongpodcast.tumblr.com. And there's also a Web site for the podcast at tellmeaboutyoursong.com. You can write interview us on iTunes, or Stitcher, or any of those places, and I would love it if you did that -- or just tell a friend. If you think they would enjoy this episode, send them a link. So, with all that said, we're going to go out and listen to the song we've been talking about: 'Oregon Trail' by Marion Call, from her album 'Standing Stones'. Thanks for listening.

['OREGON TRAIL' PLAYS IN FULL. YOU CAN FIND THE FULL LYRICS ON MARIAN CALL'S BANDCAMP PAGE.]

JACOB: So where would you like to start, Marion?

MARIAN: [laughs] Um...

JACOB: See? I warned you, and it still is totally --

MARIAN: Oh, you -- you were serious about that! Yeah.

[yoursongpodcast]

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For 'Tell Me About Your Song' #78, songwriter Nicole Alifante talked about her song 'Before I Go', which is from her album 'La La La'.

You can buy Nicole's albums on her website.

The 'Tell Me About Your Song' icon was designed by Shaenon K. Garrity.

If you want more information about your host, Jacob Haller, then check out my web page, my facebook page, or my twitter account.

'Tell Me About Your Song' on iTunes - rate and review us!

'Tell Me About Your Song' on stitcher - rate and review us!

'Tell Me About Your Song' rss feed

'Tell Me About Your Song' on Facebook

Episode Transcript:

[EXCERPT FROM 'BEFORE I GO' PLAYS:]

They got the Father, And the Son, And the Holy Ghost. I got my mind and my body and my eternal soul. That's a lot to fucking juggle, so I'm just gonna make rock and roll. Before I go.

JACOB: Hello, and welcome to 'Tell Me About Your Song, the podcast where I talk to musicians and songwriters about a song they've written. Today's guest is Nicole Alifante, and the song she'll be talking about is named "Before I Go", which is from her album "La La La". So, where would you like to start with this song?

NICOLE: I mean, I think it all -- it all transpired within, like, 30 minutes on my couch. [laughs] I just was laying there, and it came out, and I put the laptop on my stomach, and opened Garage Band, and just kind of, you know, this -- I mean, it, it -- That happens -- not often, but it does happen to me every once in a while -- where just, like, a whole story spills out, and I convince the person that I take it to to that it's going to be cool. And, you know, ultimately, it ends up kind of cool. [laughs] I don't play an instrument, so I write songs -- I write melodies and lyrics that sort of pop into my head, and I can pluck melodies out on the piano with, like, one hand, but when I was putting this album together I wanted to include at least one or two songs that I had written solely on my own. And, so, I was feeling a little weighted by what was going on in the world, and watching the coverage of the upcoming election, and so I had this lyric in my head, and then I sort of had a melody that popped in with it, and then I actually hummed a bass line.

[BEGINNING OF 'BEFORE I GO' PLAYS]

NICOLE: I used that -- I opened my Garage Band, and I hummed a bass line, and then I sang the melody and lyrics over it, and then I brought it to one of my songwriting partners, and he kind of helped me flesh it out a little bit. It came up pretty quickly. I mean it -- I just sort of -- I had a lot of, kind of, anger. It's kind of a spicy song, if you listen to it, and I just had, like, a lot of confusion about what the truth was, and why it didn't seem like anybody cared about the truth, and so it came out pretty quickly.

[EXCERPT FROM 'BEFORE I GO' PLAYS:]

They said to be nice. I didn't think twice -- I wasn't thinking at all. I turned the news on and the man said that Rome's gonna fall. Gonna grab my glass slippers and dance my ass off at the ball.

NICOLE: I guess that line is about me. It's like, 'They said to be nice. I didn't think twice -- I wasn't thinking at all,' you know? And I kind of feel like, especially in this election, I woke up -- I think it was, like -- It was like, "Yeah," you know, "I don't know anything. I don't know anything." You know, I read as much of the paper as I can, and I listen to public radio, you know, NPR, because I feel like I'm getting, you know, "paid for by the people," or whatever, and they're not snarky, and they're not yelling at each other, and being hateful, so it makes me feel better. But I do kind of feel like this, "Just, like, be nice, and, you know, be good to people, and mind your own business, and, you know" -- It's just kind of gotten us all here, where I don't think any of us knows what's going on. [laughs] So, yeah, that line kind of did stand out for me, and, I guess, growing up, just seeing, you know, beautiful girls in dresses going to balls and being saved by boys, and, you know, it's like, I wasn't -- I definitely didn't grow up in, like, this family that was, like, "Be strong, woman!" You know, they were, like, "You know, you're talented, and we love you, and we support you. Be nice! You know, just go out, and be sweet, and do what you love to do!", you know, and so I think: What is my role now in this world, you know, now that I feel like things are kind of really rocky, to say the least, and I'm a mom. Like, it's time to not to be nice anymore, and figure it out.

[EXCERPT FROM 'BEFORE I GO' PLAYS:]

They're gonna spin it, Gonna fake it, Do their time on TV. You can purchase what they're selling cause you need to believe. A ruse by any other name would still smell like bullshit to me. They got the Father, And the Son, And the Holy Ghost. I got my mind and my body and my eternal soul. Well, that's a lot to fucking juggle, so I'm just gonna make rock and roll. Before I go.

JACOB: That second verse: "They got the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost. I got my mind, and my body, and my eternal soul." Like, those are -- I guess, those -- You can think of these in different ways, but they're kind of different examples of, like, these, kind of, trinities: These three things which are different but related, and, also, maybe kind of the same, in some ways. And I thought that it was an interesting way to contrast those two, and I just, kind of -- Like, one seems very, kind of, organized religion, and the other seems much more personal.

NICOLE: It's cool that you got that, because I had always wanted to write -- I actually have a song called "The Holy Trinity" that I had been wanting to write for years, but it was getting very preachy, and I didn't know how to say what I wanted to say. And so, when I was writing this song, I was, like, "Oh! I can use just one verse, and condense my exact feeling into that one verse." So it's exactly what you're saying. It's like, you know, it's, like: Is it this sort of traditional way of seeing God, that is supposed to be the way we -- you know, the way we make rules, the way we control each other. Or is it more like a personal journey? And, you know, when this Holy Trinity was written about, thousands of years ago or whatever, were people trying to say, like, "I'm grappling with these three things! You know, I've got my reason, and I've got this body that's going to just disappear some day, and then I have, like, something bigger, that feels bigger -- like my spirit, or whatever that is. And, so, I think, you know, it's trying to -- It is -- it's like, they're very much the same, they're all so different, and it was kind of my way of never having to write that other song! [laughs] The first couple of verses were pretty visceral, and there was this, sort of, Cinderella part that came into it, that was, sort of -- it was a little more planned. Like, the idea of, just, like -- If it's all going to turn to hell, I'm just going to grab my glass slippers and dance, you know? Like, it's, like, all you can do!

[EXCERPT FROM 'BEFORE I GO' PLAYS:]

Gonna grab my glass slippers and dance my ass off at the ball. Before I go. Before I go.

NICOLE: It might've been Sam Hollande,r or someone in the music biz, said, like, "If you write a good chorus, make it the verse, and then write a better chorus."

JACOB: Hmmm.

NICOLE: And, it's like, that's a good rule. But this one in particular, I was, like, "Yeah, it's kind of flat: 'Before I go,'" you know. And I was afraid it wasn't that exciting, but then I heard the voices. You know, I heard, like, a rich, like, black woman's voice, and I heard a guy's voice, and so we tripled and doubled voices, and I felt like: 'Before I go' is such a simple statement, and I all of a sudden talked myself out of it needing, like, any acrobatics. I just liked the idea that it kind of grows. Like, I say it once, and I think in the second chorus I say it, like, twice, and then, in the third chorus, I say it three times, and I go up high, you know. So, I feel like it was just my, kind of, swan song, in a way. Like, "I hope this shit gets cleaned up before I go. [laughs] I hope I do something, make some kind of mark, before I'm out of here, because, you know, it just seems kind of hopeless right now. So I think it was less of, like, a hooky hook that I wanted people to remember, than it was more of like a statement.

JACOB: One of my problems as an interviewer is that, like, the instant I think of a question, I immediately kind of question ...

NICOLE: The question? [laughs]

JACOB: ... the premise of it. So, like, I'm kind of, like, "Well what is this about?" But then I'm, like, "Well, is it really about one specific thing? Like, how -- is that a good question?" It never is. OK. Um.

NICOLE: [laughs] Well, but that is a good question, because it's not about one specific thing. I mean, I think that, as I was writing it, like, the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost crept in there. So it was kind of like, it started out as just, like, kind of a rage of, "What am I hearing? Who's talking at me? What are they saying? Do they believe what they're saying? Am I supposed to believe what they're saying?", you know, and I didn't want to be too specifically political, you know. I'm -- I don't know if I should disclose my politics, but I didn't want to say I hated one candidate, or I loved another, or Republicans were better, or -- you know, I didn't want to get that specific. It was just more like, it sounds like everyone's lying at this point, and it's hard to find, like, any kind of purity in it. But then, the sort of religious connotation kind of jumped in, and so -- So, yes. So, it became not about one specific thing, and started to become about, what is the truth? We look for it in politics. We look for it in God, you know. It's, like, where is it? And it did kind of snowball into several different topics. [laughs] And I don't know. You know, it's funny how someone may listen to it, and maybe could be just -- First of all, they could hate it, or they could listen to it and think, "Oh, yeah, this is political," or they could feel like it's something else. It's hard to -- It's hard to know. Like, this song, in particular, is the one, when I give the CD to different people, I'm wondering, like, how they'll respond to it. Because it's pretty, you know, in your face in a certain topic. And I have, you know, Trump supporters in my family, and Hillary supporters in my family, and I voted for Bernie in the primaries, and, you know, it's, like, everyone has their different things, and, you know, it'll be interesting to see how people respond to it. But, yeah! I think we don't have a lot of references right now for anything, and I think music is just such a safe and awesome way to express that. You know, I just think it's, like, the universal language that people can come together on, even if they hate it, you know, they hate the song. At least it's it's something to talk about, that's kind of safe, in a way.

[EXCERPT FROM 'BEFORE I GO' PLAYS:]

All I keep hearing is stupid sound bites. People are dying, it ain't black and white. Rise above the hatred, and make everything all right. Before I go.

NICOLE: I love bridges. I am a Bob Dylan fan, but I always wondered what it would be like if Bob had written a bridge. [laughs] I don't think he's got bridges in any of his songs. But I do love them. It's a change for the ears, snd you're saying something that nobody's heard in the song before, and I just think they're always, like, where you find the, like, the little jewel in the song. So, I think almost all of -- maybe all of my songs have bridges. You know, it's funny. So many things were piling on me emotionally at that time, and so there was, like, the initial thing I talked about -- like, the anger of just, what's the truth? And then the religious thing popped in, and then I had been listening to tons of news. I mean, I had to -- I've stopped, thank God, but, just tons of news about the shootings, and, you know, between cops and blacks, and just, like, all the different angles of that subject. And so I -- That it ain't just black and white. it's just like --

[EXCERPT FROM 'BEFORE I GO' PLAYS:]

People are dying, it ain't black and white.

NICOLE: People are dying, and they are people, and it's not just cops, and it's not just black people -- It's people in Syria. It's everywhere, you know, and it just, kind of, -- In those four little lines, I, personally, was saying a lot. However someone else will hear it, will be the way they hear it. But it just comes at you in these little, like, bullet points, and these headlines, and these stories that keep flashing by us all day long, and it's so -- It's kind of desensitizing, and sad, and it's like a whole bevy of things. So it was a lot to say, I think, in maybe less words than I would have ever said it. But, yeah, that bridge did sort of bring in the element of, that people are dying. It started specifically with that issue, and then it kind of morphed. But then, in the outtakes, a lot of what Michelle and I sang about was that the people are dying. I mean, there's a lot of the outtakes. And rising above the hatred, and so, it fed the end of the song.

[EXCERPT FROM 'BEFORE I GO' PLAYS:]

Before I go, you know I'm gonna go.

[SONG CONTINUES TO PLAY UNDER THE FOLLOWING.]

JACOB: Probably one of the things, that I don't encounter that often, that was true in the song, is just the fact that, you know, you sent me the lyric sheet, and basically all of that is in the first third of the song, and then it's just --

NICOLE: There's a lot of song. Yeah, that was sort of a big decision to make for the album, because it's not radio friendly, you know. First of all there, are profanities in it, and it's too long. So I knew I was sort of killing the idea that it could potentially be on the radio, although, of course, I have a clean short version of it, in case anybody wants it. But it didn't have the same spirit as -- You know, the inspiration for writing the song was kind of dissipated, once I shortened it, and took the foul language out. But, so, that was a big decision to make, and it was improvised. Myself and Michelle, the backup singer, went to the studio together, and we sort of sang back and forth to each other, and we did about four tracks, and then the sax player came in, and he laid down, you know, some improv, about three tracks, and we just sort of messed around in that way, and then, there was that crazy task of cutting and pasting it. So I would hear something I liked that I did, that she did. that he did, and then we would slowly pull from each track, and kind of compose a story that leads us, like, six minutes later, out of the song -- or however long it is. So, yeah, I mean it's -- I did it sort of as a little bit of a wake up call. Like, I don't think people do that anymore, and, you know, I wanted it to go in a direction that was sort of a little deeper and a little heavier.

[THE END OF 'BEFORE I GO' HAS BEEN PLAYING UNDER THE DISCUSSION THROUGH ALL OF THE ABOVE. HERE WE HEAR A BIT MORE OF IT UNACCOMPANIED:]

MICHELLE: Before I go! NICOLE: Before you go. MICHELLE: Let go. NICOLE: Make everything all right. TOGETHER: Make everything all right. MICHELLE: Make everything all right.

[SONG CONTINUES TO PLAY UNDER THE FOLLOWING.]

JACOB: Sometimes, while I'm writing a song, the song kind of reveals to me, like, what the important part is. Like, I was writing a song, and it had this big, long, chorus, and I realized that whenever I got to the chorus, I just wanted to get back to the verse. So I was like, "OK! I'm just going to get rid of half of the chorus, and we'll just get back to the verse, and that's what the song is about.

NICOLE: Yeah.

JACOB: And then there was another song where the verses are, like, two lines long, and the chorus is this huge, honking thing.

NICOLE: Yeah, yeah.

JACOB: So, this song, I mean -- More than half of it is that kind of end jam, and it -- I mean, is there a sense in which that that's kind of what the song is about?

NICOLE: No. I think so. I mean, I think I was really excited about letting the song play out, and letting her voice be heard, and it's not, you know, some, like, -- I didn't pick her because, like, "Oh, she had the best voice!" -- she has an awesome voice, but she's also a black voice, and that was important to me, to have that represented. So I feel like that whole duelling long piece at the end is really kind of like what I was getting to. You know? And it was me expressing my anger in the beginning, and then being, like, "Let's just sing it together, you know? Let's just come together, scream it to the mountaintops, kill the hatred," you know? And so, yes. Like, you outed me. It definitely was where I was headed.

[THE END OF 'BEFORE I GO' HAS continued PLAYING UNDER THE DISCUSSION THROUGH ALL OF THE ABOVE. HERE WE HEAR A BIT MORE OF IT UNACCOMPANIED:]

NICOLE: Oooooo, let go...

[SONG CONTINUES TO PLAY A BIT UNDER THE FOLLOWING BEFORE FADING OUT.]

NICOLE: I feel like it also has a little bit of a sense of humor, too. There's some, like, funky horn parts, and the guitar goes a little wild, here and there, and it's kind of like, it's a little like [sings taunting 'nana nana boo boo' melody], you know? I was trying to go there but, who knows? [laughs]

JACOB: And then the way it ends -- It ends real sudden --

[VERY END OF 'BEFORE I GO' PLAYS.]

JACOB: -- on this real kind of discordant guitar sting, or something.

NICOLE: Yes, yes.

JACOB: And I think that was great, too, because I was like --

NICOLE: Yes that was definitely -- I'm sorry, go ahead.

JACOB: Oh, no, I was just, like, "Is it going to fade out, or how do we, you know how do we get out of this?"

NICOLE: [laughs] Yeah. These were the questions. I mean, when we were rehearsing it, too, before the horn even came in, and before I had the voices, and everything, we -- In rehearsal, we would just, like, play, and jam, and then, all of a sudden, like, you know, the drummer would drop the stick, and the bass player would be, like, "Bwaaarp", you know, and it would just end. Like, we would do that on purpose, like, just to have fun, and I was, like, "You know what? I dig it just falling apart," you know, and I guess that was kind of like the theme of the song, which is that I, at the moment -- and some days I still do -- feel like everything is falling apart. So, you know, it's, might as well let it, let the music say it.

JACOB: So, if people would like to hear more of your music, what should they do?

NICOLE: OK, well, I do have a Web site, which is NicoleAlifante.com. [she spells it] My record is up on iTunes and it's called "La La :a", and it's on CD Baby as well, and I'm on Soundcloud and you can just fish around, and you'll find me. And I do play out, every once in a while, in the sort of New York area, so if you're here, come check me out.

JACOB: Great! My name's Jacob Haller, and I have all kinds of projects going on right now, including music and other podcasts. You can find them all at JacobHaller.com. I have a website specifically for Tell Me About Your Song at TellMeAboutYourSong.com, and I'm also going to put together a blog post with links to all of Nicole's websites, and some of the things we've talked about, and I've been including full transcripts of the interviews, as well, recently. So that should be there, and you can find that at yoursongpodcast.tumblr.com [spells it]. And, with that said, we're going to go out by listening to the song we've been talking about in full: "Before I Go" by Nicole Alifante, from her album "La La La." Thanks for listening.

['BEFORE I GO' PLAYS IN FULL. LYRICS TO THIS AND OTHER SONGS ON 'LA LA LA' CAN BE FOUND BEHIND THIS LINK.]

NICOLE: I have never had to do that before, in such an intense way. I did have one other song that had curses in it -- it was called 'Saturday Bitch', and a music house wanted it, and so we made it 'Saturday Chick' -- 'Saturday Chick'. And so that was just changing a word, and -- So, no, I never really had to do that before. But in this process, we knew -- you know, we knew we were going to do it, so it was -- It's already all laid out, it just needs to be sent, you know, like the mp3, or .wav file, or whatever. But no, I really haven't had to worry about that. This was my first epic Odyssey song. [laughs]

JACOB: Right. So how do you, like -- How did you approach -- Did you -- Does it have the same kind of structure, or did you fade it out, or --How do you how did you make it work?

NICOLE: Well, we changed the curses.

[EXCERPT FROM RADIO EDIT OF 'BEFORE I GO' PLAYS:]

A ruse by any other name would still smell like B.S. to me.

NICOLE: So it's the same exact lyric, except the curses are made to be, you know, I'd say something else that's, you know, just as strong, but not a curse. And then, to be honest with you, I don't know how we ended it. [laughs] I can't wait to hear it!

[END OF RADIO EDIT OF 'BEFORE I GO' PLAYS]

[yoursongpodcast]

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For this special Christmas edition of 'Tell Me About Your Song' (episode #77), songwriter Tracie Potochnik talks about her song 'The Ballad of Harvey the Elf', which can be found on her band Cardboard Ox's album 'A Cardboard Ox Christmas', which is available for free download from Bandcamp.

This episode also includes excerpts from Tracie's conversations with her delightful parents, Ed and Judy Potochnik.

A Cardboard Ox Christmas by Cardboard Ox

I should note that there were some audio problems during my interview with Tracie, which I didn't catch until after it was too late to rerecord. I apologize for the resulting audio quality of this episode (but I think it's still fun to listen to, and I hope you do too!).

In the course of our discussion, we touched on the following topics:

Hermey the Elf from the Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer Christmas special

The Year Without A Santa Claus and the Snow and Heat Miser

The Lifesavers Sweet Storybook

The Hot Club in Providence

The canonical list of Santa's reindeer

Lothario

The Vogues

Tracie's song "So Sad Dad"

Talky country songs, including:

'A Boy Named Sue', sung by Johnny Cash, written by Shel Silverstein

'Joshua', written and recorded by Dolly Parton

'Dang Me', written and performed by Roger Miller

"It already is burning to the ground. It's 2016 December."

Past guest Steve Allain, who, with Tracie, forms the duo Cardboard Ox

This song is one of those included on Cardboard Ox's free 2016 album, 'A Cardboard Ox Christmas'. You can find out more about Cardboard Ox on their website, and more about Tracie on her own website.

The 'Tell Me About Your Song' icon was designed by Shaenon K. Garrity.

If you want more information about your host, Jacob Haller, then check out my web page, my facebook page, or my twitter account.

'Tell Me About Your Song' on iTunes - rate and review us!

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Episode Transcript:

[BEGINNING OF 'THE BALLAD OF HARVEY THE ELF' PLAYS:]

Harvey the elf lived at the North Pole He was a funny little fella with a heart of gold, But all the other elves would laugh and call him names. He had warts on his neck and hair on his nose, An artificial hip, and 15 toes, And a wild side no mother's love could tame.

JAKE: Welcome to a special holiday edition of Tell Me About Your Song. Today I'm talking to Tracie Potochnik about about a song of hers called "The Ballad of Harvey the Elf." So, actually, in addition to my discussion with Tracie, I -- there are some other recordings that I'm going to work in here and there, as appropriate. I have no idea how I'm going to get this together. But Tracie recorded some conversations between her and her dad, and her and her mother, which are also relevant to this whole endeavor.

TRACIE: Why don't you tell us who you are?

ED: My name is Eddie Potochnik. I'm the father of Tracie Potochnik.

TRACIE: And where are we now?

ED: We are in West Virginia, at a place called Berkeley Springs -- a lovely place it is -- up in the mountains, at the cabin of my son and his friend.

JUDY: I'm Judy Potochnik, spouse of the famous Edward Potochnik, maker of the Harvey the Elf stories.

JAKE: So, you know, get out the eggnog, and settle in for this conversation. Where would you like to start, Tracie?

TRACIE: I love a Christmas song. I love listening to Christmas songs. I have written a few in the past, and I just thought that this could make kind of a fun story, in the spirit of those claymation specials that there were all the rage -- and still are, at least in my heart. You know, I think those sorts of characters, like -- you remember the Rudolph special that had Hermey the Elf, who wanted to -- "I want to be a dentist?" Do you remember that guy?

JAKE: Mm-hmm.

TRACIE: And sort of the, um, the -- Like, 'The Year Without A Santa Claus' is one of my favorite ones, and it has the Snow Miser and the Heat Miser. So I think there are all of these, sort of, kind of off characters in those specials, those holiday specials that were designed for children. And so I thought that Harvey kind of fit in that genre, if you will. And so I wanted to write a song that would have lots of, sort of, licensing and merchandising opportunities --

JAKE: Oh, yeah.

TRACIE: -- attached to it.

JAKE: Sure. [laughter]

TRACIE: Yeah. So, my dad -- It's funny. I'll say: My dad was always a really great storyteller. When I was a kid, and when my brother was a kid, there was one series of stories, I suppose you could say, about Priscilla and Rainy, Priscilla being a little girl, and Rainy, the cat that she found in the rain. And the key plot point, or the key, I would say, distinguishing feature of Priscilla and Rainy, is that Rainy could talk, which my dad, I think, conveniently forgot about in the story, but I remember quite well, because they would just communicate, and they had all sorts of friends in the forest.

JUDY: My memories are that Dad had to imbibe a little before his creative juices became apparent, and then he was great telling stories, making up fantasies, for Todd and Tracie as they were growing up.

TRACIE: Did we enjoy the stories?

JUDY: Oh yes. I would be downstairs, and Ed would be up with one -- with Todd or Tracie, whichever he was putting to bed that evening, and and the kids would just be giggling and laughing hard. I was always jealous, because I wanted to hear the stories, too, because they had to be great.

ED: At around the same age -- five years -- oftentimes, I would take her, and put her to bed, and stories would ensue. One of the first was the great story of Priscilla and Rainy, which was a little girl in kindergarten, who on one rainy afternoon, walking home from school, found this little cat huddled up that somebody had abandoned, so she decided to name him Rainy, and a great love bloomed between the two, and they had countless good times together, which I often related into stories for her, about her and Rainy. And some she loved, some she got a little mad at me, but they were -- they were -- they were stories. [laughter]

TRACIE: Why would I get mad at you, Dad?

ED: Oftentimes, she just kept wanting to hear longer and longer stories, so I would add a little bit of distress to the story, concerning Rainy and the animals in the forest, and she said, "Aaaaah! That's enough! That's enough!" Then should would make me get out, so ... [laughter] And I felt good about that. [laughter] It was just talk! Not often, but every now and then.

TRACIE: Anyway, I love my dad's stories, and so he told, you know, when the occasion was appropriate, holiday-themed [laughter] -- I don't know if appropriate is the right word, if you're talking about a five or six year old -- but it's funny, because I don't -- I don't remember, distinctly, the story itself. You know, I don't remember my dad telling me that story in particular. However, Harvey was always sort of a legend around our home. So every Christmas, we would get presents from Harvey. [laughs] I think it was often the Lifesavers storybook. Did you get that for the holiday? It was like a little book, but there was a 4-pack of Lifesavers inside each side, of all different flavors? Yeah, so Harvey was just always sort of a part of the, of the household -- sort of a family legend, if you will, but I didn't remember all of the specific details of the story.

TRACIE: Do you remember how you came up with the story of Harvey the Elf?

ED: Yeah, Harvey -- I vaguely remember, maybe not all of it, but I think I just got kind of a little bit, maybe, tired of telling the normal Christmas stories -- Rudolph, things like that -- so I thought I'd become a little creative, if you will, and decided to tell Tracie a story about a different Santa Claus, who happened to come that particular Christmas Eve, and I figured, why do it in the normal mode? I'd add a little -- I'd embellish a little.

[EXCERPT FROM 'THE BALLAD OF HARVEY THE ELF' PLAYS:]

Well Harvey had good intentions but not much sense, So he headed down south to Providence, And landed on the roof of The Hot Club. He thought he'd stop in for a little rest, But as scores of witnesses can attest, An elf in a bar on Christmas eve gets a lot of love. He got tequila and gin and rum on the house. Spilled maker's mark on the barmaid's blouse. By the time the eggnog came, he was on the floor! As he swallowed down ...

TRACIE: So when I got it in my head to write the song, I went to my dad -- you know, I was home for, I think I was home for Thanksgiving -- and I just said, you know, "Can you just remind me, what were some of the details of Harvey?" Because we hadn't really talked about specifics in a long time. He did not remember anything. [laughter] He remembered that Harvey existed, certainly, and he did remember sort of the fundamental point, which is that Harvey -- that Harvey, like, got really messed up.

[EXCERPT FROM 'THE BALLAD OF HARVEY THE ELF' PLAYS:]

[SPOKEN:] So, everybody knows that Santa's sleigh has no keys. It has no engine. The whole thing is completely reindeer operated, and to get it to start up, you have to do one thing, and one thing only, which is to say the names of the reindeer, in consecutive order, like so: On Dasher, on Dancer, on Prancer and Vixen. On Comet, on Cupid, on Donner and Blitzen. But Harvey was not in full possession of his faculties at this moment. So he climbed onto the rooftop, stumbled headfirst into the sleigh, and this is what he shouted: [One, two, one two three ...] "On Jackie, on Judy, On Mary Ann and Joan. On Myrna, Anita. Why won't you take us home? We're in quite a fix if I say so myself," Hollered Harvey the drunken elf.

ED: So Santa finally makes it back. He sees Harvey in his state. And Harvey's trying to be apologetic, and what have you, and carrying on, and Santa says, "Well, Harvey, Christmas Eve is about shot anyhow. It's going to be no Christmas Eve this year, no Christmas. The little kids, the little boys, because of you, are not going to have anything under their tree. Be nothing but ashes in their stockings. Thanks, Harvey -- you really did it this time." [laughter] And I think that's pretty much about what it was, and that's pretty much the story of Harvey the Elf. There may have been more to it, but that was a lot of years ago. And -- Yeah. It was a good one. I liked it. Tracie liked it. I think, for about a week afterward, she didn't talk to me, however [laughter], when she got up, there was stuff under the tree for her.

TRACIE: The other key part of the story, that Christmas was ruined [laughter], I think, was -- remained consistent. So some of the points that my dad talks about in my interview with him about the song, I do believe he borrowed from the song itself. [laughter] Because I had to take some artistic liberties there, given that this story needed to be fleshed out just a little bit.

[EXCERPT FROM 'THE BALLAD OF HARVEY THE ELF' PLAYS:]

"I ruined Christmas!" Harvey cried in shame, Full of guilt and doubt and blame. But what Santa said then brought him some relief: "Oh, at first everybody was in a tizzy Without new iPads to keep them busy, But then they started to talk and laugh and sing. Harvey, you might be surprised to hear it, but you unearthed the Christmas spirit That no material stuff could ever bring." Santa patted Harvey on the back, And he tucked away his toy-filled sack. They were about to take off through the trees. But at that moment, Santa Claus Looked down onto the street and paused. He said, "Harvey, let's go have a round on me!" [cheering]

ED: The amazing thing about this: Before Tracie recorded this song, she was home with us, and I happened to mention it to her, and we were talking about it, and I asked her, I said, "Do you think you could write a song about this?" And she said, "Sure." So she left the room, and it was, probably, an hour later, she's back with paper with all these words, and everything, and she starts singing it, and it totally blew me away. It's not your, I would think, average Christmas song, but there's a lot of truth to it, that, probably, what happens up at the North Pole on occasion. Not all the time, but on occasion. Yeah. I was flabbergasted with how quick she did it, and how well she did it. Lovely song! Lovely!

TRACIE: Yeah, I really did. I went upstairs to my childhood bedroom, [laughs] while the rest of the family was downstairs, and I just kind of whipped it out. You know, I think it -- I guess I was pretty inspired to do it. And it's a very wordy song, so I'm actually impressed that I wrote that many words [laughs] in a very short period of time, and, you know, certainly refined it a little bit after that, but I think kind of thinking about Harvey as this wannabe Lothario who, sort of, struck out with the ladies, and that being part of his motivation, too, I think really hit me on that -- on the chorus. And so, once I sort of figured out that the, you know, that sort of twist of the chorus is that, you know, he has all these names that he repeats, and then, when it's time to get the sleigh to start, and say the names of the reindeer, he just -- he can't remember anything except for the women. I think that was, kind of, a little bit of the key to the song, and than the rest of it just sort of flowed from there.

JAKE: Mm-hmm.

TRACIE: And I'm a big -- I would say, in my writing, I am a -- I'm a proponent of marinating. So I tend to, you know, get an idea, whatever it is -- maybe it's a title, or a lyric, a concept, etc. -- and just sort of sit with it for a while, and kind of, like, walk around, and let it, I guess, gather steam, maybe, sort of subconsciously, and kind of -- kind of work itself out a little bit. And I think this song was marinating for, you know, three decades. [laughs] So, in some sense, I think, you know, it was just kind of in there, and I was, sort of, ready to write it, and so I think, maybe that's why all of those words that were just somewhere subconsciously sort of floating around and finding their way together, made their way out onto a page pretty easily. Although one thing that was sort of surprising to me, because this wasn't part of my dad's telling of the story, was that, you know, sort of the moment at the end, where it's all fine, and Santa's just cool with it -- because, as I had mentioned, in the original telling of the story, Christmas was just ruined, and that was it. Good night, Tracie! [laughter] Sleep tight! Good luck tomorrow! -- but, yeah, in this one -- You know, I'm kind of a -- I'm not a writer who tends to have, kind of, happy ending to my songs, but I felt like, for this one, it was just so peppy and cheerful, and so I like that it resolves in a way that is just kind of like: All right, everyone! It's cool! Harvey's bad, [laughter] but it's fine. And, of course, my dad loved it. He was so very excited about it. And my dad's funny -- I had written him one song previously, for his birthday, because ever since -- My dad is a, he's a bit of a musician himself. He played saxophone when he was in high school, and he was also in a doo-wop group. I think they were called the True-Tones. This was when he was in high school. I think that's right. It was sort of the -- I don't know if you're familiar with the group the Vogues. They were a 50s doo-wop group, and they came from Turtle Creek ...

JAKE: Oh, OK.

TRACIE: ... and, so, I think they were, sort of, modeled in the fashion of the Vogues, and the highlight of their brief career was singing at the Turtle Creek high school prom, which was a big, a pretty good gig. So my dad is musical, and likes to sing, and he's always given me song title suggestions. [laughs] I don't know if you -- Do your parents do this?

JAKE: Uh, my parents don't, but, definitely, it's something -- it's one of the hazards of the profession, I would say, is that people will have ideas for songs that they want you to write.

TRACIE: Yeah.

JAKE: And I always tell them to write them themselves.

TRACIE: I tell my dad that a lot, too.

JAKE: Yeah.

TRACIE: But he came to me with one title, and he was, like, "You know what would be a good title for a song? So Sad Dad." [laughter] And so I wrote him a song when he turned 71 called, "Don't Be So Sad, Dad." Which was a pretty, kind of like a fun peppy, song, so ...

[BEGINNING OF 'DON'T BE SO SAD, DAD' PLAYS:]

You know I hate to see it when you're feeling down, When you mope and, silent, fix your lips into a frown. You may be feeling sleepy, or a little uninspired, And then there are some days you set The old grill brush on fire. But don't be so sad, dad.

['DON'T BE SO SAD, DAD' CONTINUES IN THE BACKGROUND.]

TRACIE: Yeah. But he gives me a lot of title suggestions. I think his most recent one -- he's suggested this many, many times over, the past year -- was "The Ravages of Time." [laughter] Which is, I guess, fits pretty well in my traditionaly oeuvre of depressing songs.

['DON'T BE SO SAD, DAD' CONTINUES:]

"There's oil in the ocean," sometimes Mom likes to yell, but on such vague unpleasantries, there is no need to dwell. Life can be a struggle, and victories seem small, But you never know when you just might hit the Powerball. So don't be so sad, dad, when you could be glad, dad. It's the latest fad, dad. Go out and have some fun.

TRACIE: And my dad still -- I mean, to this day, he's -- I mean, he really is so funny, and he is -- he is a great storyteller, and I think that was, sort of, evinced in the interview that I did with him.

JAKE: Oh, yeah.

TRACIE: Because it was really funny, you know. I'd asked him, on the -- I had a phone call, and I was, like, "Dad, you know, I'm recording this podcast with my friend Jacob," and then I had to describe what a podcast was --

JAKE: Sure!

TRACIE: And I was, like, "It's like a radio show, but it's on the Internet," and he's, like, "OK." And I said, you know, I was going to talk about Harvey, and that I wanted to do an interview with him -- and this is, you know, a phone call sometime before Thanksgiving -- and he's, like, "Oh, sure." And so, he was sort of -- you know, he was a little shy about it, and a little reluctant, but as soon as the microphone was in front of him, like that, he just sort of turned on, and got back into the storytelling "Ed" mode. (His name's Ed.)

TRACIE: How did you come up with the ideas for your stories?

ED: I wish I knew that. [laughter]

TODD: [in the background] Beer!

ED: They just, just came out of the blue, and they were there! Whether a word would set off something in my mind, or in my goofiness, silliness, whatever. I couldn't actually say that I thought them out. That they were just spontaneous.

TRACIE: OK. So you were just a creative spirit.

ED: I would like to think so, at times. But it would have been great if it would have been on a continual basis. But, yeah, I think, at times, creativity hits all of us in flashes, and we either -- some work for great good, and some for entertainment, I think, like these stories did for the kids.

TRACIE: Because storytelling is a tough thing to do off the cuff, I think. You know, as a writer, I'm able to put together a song, or a story, but I'm not a great, sort of, off the cuff thinker, and my stories tend to be, [laughs] as you have witnessed in this interview today, a little rambly, and kind of all over the place. But I think he really can put together a cogent, funny story that, you know, at least for my brother and I, when we were kids, and I think for, you know, our family and friends, and other folks that my family knows -- because his stories aren't just kid's stories, you know. He could just tell stories about something that happened to him, you know, in the parking lot of the Shop & Save, [laughs] or something, and sort of make it interesting and funny. Yeah. My dad's I do thank you for everything. Yeah, but my dad's definitely very creative, and I think does underestimate his own creative powers, and that's why I always tell him, when he gives me these song titles, I say, "Dad, you write it! You know, you write the lyrics! I'll help you put together -- you know, I can play a little guitar, or something." But he can he can write melodies, you know, and I think he could probably write some pretty good lyrics, too, if he -- if he set himself to it.

JAKE: Yeah. If you're out there, Ed, I encourage that, too.

TRACIE: Yeah, consider it a challenge, Dad.

JAKE: yeah.

[EXCERPT FROM 'THE BALLAD OF HARVEY THE ELF' PLAYS:]

He had warts on his neck, and hair on his nose, An artificial hip and 15 toes, And a wild side no mother's love could tame,

TRACIE: My brother, at, sort of -- Somewhat near the time that I wrote this, my brother had had a hip replacement, so I think that -- so the artificial hip came from that. But, otherwise, no, I was just trying to paint a picture of someone who was distinctive. Distinctive looking. He had a lot of toes, warts, you know. I guess just the one wart. A wart on his neck, which is not so bad, I mean: One neck wart, I think, as far as things go, that doesn't really preclude anyone from being considered attractive. [laughs]

JAKE: Well, yeah.

TRACIE: Someone was asking me today, my friend Mary was asking, about the women's names, too, and, sort of, how I selected those, and mostly it was that I wanted them to have a kind of a vintage -- like a retro feel to them. You know, it wasn't like Britney. [laughs]

JAKE: Right.

TRACIE: That sort of thing. But Judy is my mom's name, so she is in there. She has a cousin named Jackie, and so she was in there. I have a friend named Anita. I don't know any Myrnas, although I would like to. [laughs]

JAKE: Any Myrnas out there, hit us up.

TRACIE: Look me up! Send me an e-mail!

JAKE: Yeah. And then, I kind of assumed that you started with the reindeer names ...

[EXCERPT FROM 'THE BALLAD OF HARVEY THE ELF' PLAYS:]

On Dasher, on Dancer, on Prancer and Vixen. On Comet, on Cupid, on Donner and Blitzen.

JAKE: ... and then kind of back formed women's names so that it would fit into the same rough scheme.

TRACIE: Yeah, sort of syllabically.

[EXCERPT FROM 'THE BALLAD OF HARVEY THE ELF' PLAYS:]

"On Jackie, on Judy, On Mary Ann and Joan. On Myrna, Anita. Why won't you take us home?

TRACIE: Yes. [laughs]

JAKE: Trick of the trade, folks.

TRACIE: Count out those syllables! [laughs] I definitely wanted it to have this sort of retro vintage feel, and sort of -- It's definitely inspired by some of those kind of -- I feel like, early, like the 60s country songs. And definitely -- I mean, it sounds a lot like "A Boy Named Sue."

[EXCERPT FROM JOHNNY CASH SINGING 'A BOY NAMED SUE' PLAYS:]

Well, my daddy left home when I was three, And he didn't leave much to ma and me. Just this old guitar and an empty bottle of booze. Now, I don't blame him cause he run and hid, But the meanest thing that he ever did, Was before he left, he went and named me "Sue."

TRACIE: So I think that talky part definitely kind of draws from that, as well as -- you know I'm a big Dolly Parton fan, and I feel like Dolly will often have -- not that she necessarily -- Well, she actually does have some songs in that style. I don't know if you know that song Joshua by Dolly Parton?

[EXCERPT FROM DOLLY PARTON SINGING 'JOSHUA' PLAYS:]

Well, a good ways down the railroad track, There was this little old rundown shack, And in it lived a man I'd never seen. Folks said he was a mean and a vicious man, And you better not set foot on his land, but I didn't think nobody could be that mean.

TRACIE: And in fact, similarly, -- Ooooh, I'm sensing a theme on the talky songs -- because, you know, A Boy Named Sue, obviously, is someone who is this, sort of, is an outcast because of factors beyond his control, and the Dolly Parton song Joshua, too -- it's about this sort of man who lives in a shack, who is sort of like an outcast of the town, but then becomes a perfectly suitable love interest [laughs] for the narrator, Dolly Parton. But, yeah, but it definitely has that kind of, like, rapid, really quick, talky kind of feel that I think some of those early country songs have, and, you know, and I would say it's probably a little bit influenced, too, by Roger Miller songs. You know, Roger Miller, 'King of the Road,' and he has some kind of funny songs like 'Dang Me'.

[EXCERPT FROM ROGER MILLER SINGING 'DANG ME' PLAYS:]

Out all night and runnin' wild. Woman sittin' home with a month-old child. Dang me, dang me. They oughta take a rope and hang me, High from the highest tree. Woman, would you weep for me?

TRACIE: So, the story is about -- and now I'm going to get deep about it, oh no! [laughs] -- but, obviously, you know, Harvey, as you can tell from the first verse of the song, is a little bit of an outsider. You know, he's kind of a misfit. Which I think is sort of a common theme in a lot of kid's stories, and certainly in those those Christmas specials -- you know Rudolph, and Hermey the Elf, who is sort of the same thing. They were just a little bit different, kind of, outsiders. And then Santa, I think, out of the kindness of his heart, you know, sees Harvey, recognizes him as a hard worker -- even if he is maybe a little down on his luck, and was certainly down on his luck with the ladies -- and so Santa kind of gives him this extra responsibility. It's like, "You can come out with me, join me in the pinnacle, I would say, of an elf's year, and many people's year, you know. Christmas Eve, you deliver the toys." And then, for -- Can I swear on this show?

JAKE: Yes!

TRACIE: Yeah. And then Harvey just fucks it up royally. [laughs] Which I think is -- You know, I feel like we've all sort of been there, where, you know, you get a little something. You're feeling so good about it, and confident and you're, like, "Yeah, man! I'm going to, you know, this is real. I'm going to celebrate some good times," and then, you know, Harvey celebrated a little -- a little too much, and wasn't totally up, I think, to the responsibility that Santa gave him. Who can blame him, though?

JAKE: Mm-hmm.

TRACIE: Yeah. So that's something that I hope that many of us can [laughs] -- well, maybe not hope that many of us can relate to, but I think we can. I think we've all sort of been there, when you're, like, "Oh, my god, what have I done?"

JAKE: Yeah.

TRACIE: And, you know -- and certainly the concern about disappointing a lot of people -- in this case, it is the world's children [laughs] that he has disappointed. That's probably a little worse than just your boss, or, you know ...

JAKE: And his boss, too!

TRACIE: And his -- that is true. But his -- Your boss and the world's children would be kind of a heavy load.

JAKE: That would be tough.

TRACIE: You know, I think, in the end, when Santa comes and finds Harvey, you know, one, I appreciated that in the song Santa is benevolent. He's a benevolent dictator. [laughter] But, you know, I think he -- he hits upon that key point of, you know, that Christmas has become so about materialism. And Harvey, in fact, maybe did everyone a favor by not just dispersing all sorts of toys and gifts that, you know, children will likely forget about in a couple of weeks, too, and then will just rot away in a landfill somewhere. Not to disparage all the hard work of the elves. I mean, they're making quality products, I'm sure, that bring joy to many.

JUDY: Now, think about how hard these elves have to work to get all these toys for all the little children all over the world, and I bet they had some more than eight hour days. Do you think maybe that they abuse these elves a little bit?

TRACIE: Oh, yeah. I don't think there's an elf union that I know of.

JUDY: Hmm. Very true. Very true. So I think they probably worked really hard, and so when they got some time off, they wanted to relax.

TRACIE: You can't blame Harvey, is what you're saying.

JUDY: Well. [laughs] Overindulging. You know. Not good on Christmas Eve.

TRACIE: He ruined Christmas, but was it really the conditions -- sort of the systemic inequities that are foisted upon elves -- that caused it to happen?

JUDY: Oh, wow. That's a tough one. That's [laughter] -- that's a, that's a deep question. That is a deep question. I don't have ... Yes. [laughter]

TRACIE: I guess the overall theme is that sometimes the impact that we think that a situation, or an action that we take, might have, can end up being, sort of, vastly different, or have sort of a different -- a different set of impacts and outcomes, that we couldnt have predicted, and wouldn't necessarily think of from our own perspective. In this case, it was that, you know, families were forced to actually kind of talk to each other, and just enjoy one another. Now, if this were a true tale, and children did not get anything, [laughter] any presents on Christmas, I don't know that it would go that smoothly, but, you know, I think eventually --

JAKE: This country would burn to the ground. [laughter]

TRACIE: It already is burning to the ground. [laughs] It's 2016 December.

TRACIE: So where do you think Harvey is today?

JUDY: Well, I don't know. Ed thinks he's in some home. But I don't know that elves really age. I don't think elves really age. And, besides, with his drinking problem, he probably just became a little pickled. [laughs] And so, he hasn't really -- No, I don't think elves age.

TRACIE: So you think he's just still working at the shop?

JUDY: I think he's probably a supervisor.

JAKE: So, if people would like to hear more of your music, what should they do?

TRACIE: They can go to CardboardOxMusic.com. Cardboard Ox is the name of my duo with my good friend Steve Allain --

JAKE: Past guest, as well.

TRACIE: Yes, and so we're putting out a holiday EP, and The Ballad of Harvey the Elf will be on it, so you'll be able to find that on our website. You can also look me up at TraciePotochnik.com. I will spell that for you. [does so]

JAKE: Yeah. Well, thank you for talking to me for this special Christmas episode.

TRACIE: Thanks, Jacob.

TRACIE: Thanks dad. Is there anything we haven't talked about that you would like to add?

ED: Not really. I think those who may have the chance to hear the song, or watch the podcast -- if I come off a little goofy, or whatever, it's, uh, -- Look at me! But I think you'll enjoy it, and see the creative touch that Tracie has put to it. Just visualize -- close your eyes when you listen to it. You'll enjoy it.

['THE BALLAD OF HARVEY THE ELF' PLAYS IN FULL. YOU CAN FIND THE LYRICS, AND DOWNLOAD THE RECORDING FOR FREE, FROM CARDBOARD OX'S BANDCAMP PAGE.]

TRACIE: Here's a question for you: How bad was Harvey's hangover the next day?

ED: Oh, it was terrible. Terrible. When Harvey finally woke up, and got his head a little bit clear, and started recalling what he did -- how he just tore 'em up to no end. And he tried to talk to Santa, but he had a hard time seeing him, and, when he finally did, Santa told him, "You'll never get in my sleigh again, Harvey. Never." And Harvey was confined to the yo-yo, making toys, on a bunch of yo-yos.

TRACIE: Wow.

ED: So, yes, Santa was mad.

TRACIE: I don't remember those details. [laughter] So, Dad, do you think -- Was this a one time occurrence, or do you think that Harvey had a drinking problem?

ED: No, it was a one time occurrence. And that was -- Before the following Christmas, Harvey was -- he was put on Social Security, and he had a -- he had a steady income, and Santa forbade him to go to the shop, and even go near the other elves, lest they get corrupted.

TRACIE: I see. Harvey! Santa is a punishing boss, huh?

ED: Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, Santa's not all happy "Ho Ho Ho!"s all the time! He has his mean streak, too, when he has to have it.

TRACIE: Well, hey, I'm sure if you're delivering presents to all the children in the world, then you have to have pretty exacting standards.

ED: Oh, you do! It's -- You know, you've only got so many hours to do it, and, after so many years, you do lose a little bit of the magical powers that he had, and, sometimes, that's why a lot of kids don't get anything. Their parents tell them, "Well, you were bad." Nah! They weren't bad, Santa just didn't get there.

TRACIE: [laughs] OK.

[yoursongpodcast]

Visit Original Link

For 'Tell Me About Your Song' #76, Sonny Roelle and Geoff Griffin of the Sentimental Favorites talked about their song 'Roelle Family Christmas', which can be found on their album 'The Unrelenting Sentimental Favorites'.

The Unrelenting Sentimental Favorites by The Sentimental Favorites

In the course of our discussion, we touched on the following topics:

Christmas

AS220

Taking the Christ out of Christmas

Past performers at the Sentimental Favorites Holiday Matinee:

Jacob Haller

The Superchief Trio

The Double Decker Dance Band

The Iditarod

Deer Tick

Dan Blakeslee

Will Schaff

Richard Goulis

Garfield

Eggnog

Cool Whip

LEGO sets

Mad Magazine

Model Railroaders

Bowling shoes

Nerds

Combos

Durkee french fried onion rings

'Put The Plow Down', another Sentimental Favorites song

For more Sentimental Favorites music, invite them to your house or event, or go to their website, their Bandcamp page, or to 75orLess Records. The next five people to order an album through their Bandcamp page will get a free poster with all of the lyrics from 'The Unrelenting Sentimental Favorites' on it.

The 'Tell Me About Your Song' icon was designed by Shaenon K. Garrity.

If you want more information about your host, Jacob Haller, then check out my web page, my facebook page, or my twitter account.

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Episode Transcript:

[EXCERPT FROM 'ROELLE FAMILY CHRISTMAS' PLAYS:]

Egg egg eggnog in the ma-ma-moustache of my fa-fa-father is funny, ha ha ha ha Egg egg eggnog in the ma-ma-moustache of my fa-fa-father is funny, ha ha ha ha

JAKE: Hello, everyone. Welcome to a special holiday edition of Tell Me About Your Song, the podcast in which I talk to musicians and songwriters about a song they've written. Today, I'm talking to the Sentimental Favorites.

SONNY: My name is Sonny.

GEOFF: And I'm Geoff Griffin.

JAKE: And the song they're going to be talking about is named 'Roelle Family Christmas', and it's from their album 'The Unrelenting Sentimental Favorites.' So insert jingle bells here. [Jingle bells play.] Where do you guys want to start?

GEOFF: We are proud of our holiday engagement with our audience. Sentimental Favorites had a holiday matinee that we did for many years at AS220. We would pick an afternoon in December. It was a number of different acts, and -- Musical acts, but we also had performance art, and people doing readings -- and the idea was to introduce some of the Christmas spirit into that AS220 space, and also celebrate with a family friendly rock show. The Christmas element of it was what's left when you take Christ out of Christmas.

JAKE: Mm-hmm.

GEOFF: So, we discovered, in the -- when we thought that through, that it's about candy, and presents, and nice people, and music, and family, and --

SONNY: Decorations.

GEOFF: -- decorations, so we would decorate the AS220 performance space, and had left out crayons, and dishes of candy for the kids, and there was coloring -- which was fun, because it's fun finding random black and white art for kids to color. We would announce a gift swap, which is a fun thing to do with strangers. So, and we would seed -- Under the tree, we would seed it with five or six gifts out of our basements, and then people could leave a gift and take a gift, which was a fun way to introduce people to each other. I was, would fry dough during the whole show, so there would be something hot and savory to eat. And performers over the years included: you, Jacob; also the Superchief trio performed; we had the Iditarod; Deer Tick; Dan Blakeslee ...

SONNY: Will Schaff played one year.

GEOFF: ... The Double Decker Dance Band; Richard Goulis did a performance piece with a toxic Santa Claus, and that was a little scary, but still fun. And it turned out to be -- It was a lot of work for us to do during the holiday season, but it turned out to be a lot of fun, too. Oh! And the other thing was that we would make a holiday CD, which was only available at those events. And, someday, we ought to do a compilation of all of those, because they were fun versions of songs that never surfaced again.

SONNY: It'll be in the box set.

GEOFF: It'll be in the box box set. So 'Roelle Family Christmas' -- Oh! And then the other idea was also to nudge people into writing their own original holiday themed material.

SONNY: One of the caveats of playing was you had to play a holiday song.

GEOFF: Yes.

SONNY: Not -- You know. At least one.

GEOFF: Yes. And it being AS220, we were encouraging people to write their own originals. And the song that we've chosen for today, 'Roelle Family Christmas,' is in many ways a celebration of what happens when you take Christ out of Christmas in America in the 1980s. Sonny, can you talk about the song?

SONNY: Um ... I don't remember writing the song. [laughter]

JAKE: Perfect! All right.

SONNY: I think it happened really quick. In five minutes, maybe, it was written, and it was just me describing what the typical Christmas celebration with my immediate family is like. More so what it was like in the 80s and 90s. Things have changed since we've gotten older, and moved away, and have our own families, etc. So, yeah, it was really just almost a bullet point list of things that are involved at Christmastime with my people.

GEOFF: With all of Sonny's songs, Sonny comes in, and it all seems -- he will sing the song, and often the -- 90 percent of the time, the structure's all fully formed already, and it's always pretty obvious to me what to do, which has been a nice way that he and I have clicked for a long time, so there's not a lot of suffering over -- he has, trusts whatever harmonic motion I'm putting underneath his notes, or at least is nice to go and change his melody to match whatever it is that I happen to playing underneath him. So that whole side of it's been really quick and easy. One thing that I like about the song is that it's a sentimental family childhood Christmas song, but, instead of being sort of melancholy or old timey, It's manic and fired up in the way that a seven year old at Christmastime is, and it's a hectic song, and it's hard to even tell what's going on, and it's full of stammers, and stutters, and stops, and starts, which I -- which I appreciate, because that's what I remember. "I can't sleep because I'm -- I'm just tearing through the Garfield books, trying to get as much out of this whole 24 hours as I possibly can."

[EXCERPT FROM 'ROELLE FAMILY CHRISTMAS' PLAYS:]

Egg egg eggnog in the ma-ma-moustache of my fa-fa-father is funny, ha ha ha ha Egg egg eggnog in the ma-ma-moustache of my fa-fa-father is funny, ha ha ha ha

SONNY: Every Christmas, my mother makes this amazing eggnog that is just -- it's -- It's weird. I was thinking on the way here how I was going to describe this eggnog, and I couldn't -- I couldn't come up with a way to describe it, that didn't sound disgusting.

JAKE: That's the way of eggnog.

GEOFF: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Eggnog is gross.

SONNY: This eggnog -- It's not like, you know, if you buy it in the store, it's really liquidy, it's, like, a kind of a beige color -- Like, it's not that. There's no alcohol in this eggnog. It's -- it's kind of like a really fluffy Cool Whip, but tastes more like eggnog. You know, it's gallons of heavy cream.

GEOFF: Butter and sugar.

SONNY: Yeah, whipped up. And so it's -- [sighs] -- It would be made in this gigantic yellow Tupperware bowl, and set out Christmas Eve, and there would just be a ladle in it, and you would ladle it into these little glass mugs, that you could fit, like, one finger through the handle of, and you would kind of plop it in there, and you -- you know -- you would kind of drink it, but really, kind of, just, like, tip the glass up to your mouth, and kind of slurp it out, like -- It didn't move very quickly. And so my father, having a mustache, of course, every time he tipped this glass up to drink out of it, his mustache was full of this fluff, and as children we were endlessly delighted by this. You know, and then, when we got older, it became, like, shtick. I mean, it was probably schtick when we were little too, but it just had to happen, you know -- my dad had to tilt the eggnog up, and we all had to go, "Ah ha ha! It's in his mustache! Ha!" and he'd be, like, [adopts dopey voice] "What do you mean it's in my mustache?" [laughter] And then he'd kind of, like, mug, you know, and, like, just make faces, and then kind of, like, blow it up into his nose. And so, you know. Yeah. That was hilarious.

GEOFF: Mm-hmm.

SONNY: Yeah.

[EXCERPT FROM 'ROELLE FAMILY CHRISTMAS' PLAYS:]

Christmas time with the Roelles: Lego sets and stockings, sweaters, socks, and magazines. Someone always gets a bowling shoebox from the 80s that later will hold the angel 'top the tree that Grandma made.

SONNY: So the first verse is talking about -- it's, like, presents, right? Or it's, like, Christmas morning? -- So, typical presents: Every year there's a LEGO set in the stocking, which was my mother's way -- We were allowed to open our stockings first, like, before everybody was up, and stuff. You would get up, you'd get your stocking, there would be little presents in it, and you could open those, and do whatever, and it was a way for my parents to, maybe, sleep in a little bit, and be able to wake up, and make a pot of coffee, before opening presents. So there were Lego sets in it, which would keep us busy, because we, of course we'd have to open them up and build them, and that, you know, would save 10 minutes.

JAKE: Yeah know we had the same system. There was always an orange in the toe.

SONNY: My grandparents always put an orange in, and then an envelope from the bank with a crisp dollar bill.

JAKE AND GEOFF: Nice!

JAKE: Ooh! I like that! Classy!

SONNY: Yeah, yeah. Oh, and magazines, because you could sit and read a magazine -- it was usually Mad Magazine, or, like, Model Railroaders, I don't know, really. One of the things that was always under the tree, wrapped up with someone's present in it, was a shoe box that was from my dad's bowling shoes, and it was always, like, "Who gets the shoe box this year?" And somebody would open it up -- "I got the shoebox!" And it was just, like, wherever present conveniently fit in the shoe box, but then, as we started bringing, you know, significant others home for their first Christmas with the family, they would get the shoe box, just to kind of, like, welcome them, and make them part of the -- right. And then after. After Christmas, when things get taken down, the crocheted angel that my my grandmother had made -- it's, like, crocheted over, I don't know, a cardboard cone that has tinfoil wrapped around it -- that would get put in the shoe box, and then get packed away. So my --

GEOFF: Oh! So it wasn't just your dad's current pair of bowling shoes.

SONNY: No, it was, like some time in --

GEOFF: It was some specific bowling shoe --

SONNY: -- it looks like, the early 80s, he bought a pair of bowling shoes, [Geoff laughs] and this box somehow survived much longer than the shoes.

GEOFF: That's wonderful.

SONNY: Yeah, so -- and that helped keep the box preserved, was, you know, you pack it away with the Christmas decorations for the next year.

[EXCERPT FROM 'ROELLE FAMILY CHRISTMAS' PLAYS:]

Christmas eve is shrimp cocktail, li- ttle meatballs, cookies, and fudge, and Christmas day we will eat lasagne. On the ride home, I'll snack on stocking food, like Nerds and Combos and Durkee french fried onion rings that I love. I can't wait for -- Egg egg ...

SONNY: So the first verse is presents. Then the second verse is food. And -- Because food is pretty important, even though it's not, like, a giant production. It's -- For a long time, it was -- Christmas Eve, it would just be the immediate family, and we'd go to church for the Christmas Eve service, and then we'd come home, and, you know, people would go off into bedrooms, and wrap presents, and there would kind of be a buffet of these little cocktail meatballs that my mom makes, that are awesome, and shrimp cocktail -- which was always, like, set out that morning to thaw, because it was a frozen thing -- and Christmas cookies -- like, sugar cookies that were frosted -- and fudge, a couple different kinds of fudge, and, yeah, just a lot of junk food. And then, like, Christmas specials on TV -- like, old Christmas specials. And then, eventually, we'd all go up to our rooms. The only thing I didn't talk about in there was, my personal holiday tradition was: Christmas Eve, you know, not being able to sleep because you're so excited, so I would just read Garfield treasuries until I fell asleep, and I would just, you know, I would get through an entire Garfield book, and then just pass out. So every time I see a Garfield treasury now, it's -- it's Christmas Eve.

GEOFF: Wow.

SONNY: Yeah.

GEOFF: I really don't like Garfield.

SONNY: Speaking of Garfield, one of our Christmas traditions, briefly, was lasagna on Christmas Day.

JAKE: Oh, yeah.

Geoff: Mm-hmm.

SONNY: Which, I think mostly because of this song, my mom then felt, [laughter] like, the need -- Like, she felt like I had to have lasagna on Christmas Day. And I remember, there was a year or two, not too long ago, where she was, like, "I'm not making lasagne. I'm sorry. I'm not making lasagne. Is that OK?" Like, I don't care! I'll eat anything. I mean, it's just what was happening at the time of the song, so that's what -- And the other food is my stocking goodies that -- You know, from the age of seventeen on, I lived 400 miles away, so I would be home for Christmas, and then I'd have a 400 mile drive back to where I was living, whether it was Baltimore or Providence, and the whole ride was stocking goodies, you know, to snack on, and there was those bags of Combos, and Nerds and those Durkee french fried onion rings, which are those onion rings that come in a can, that you put on bean casseroles. One can is probably a thousand calories but, you know, I would eat the entire can on a car ride, and a bag of Combos. It was really disgusting, but delicious.

[EXCERPT FROM 'ROELLE FAMILY CHRISTMAS' PLAYS:]

I can't wait for -- Egg egg eggnog in the ma-ma-moustache of my fa-fa-father is funny, ha ha ha ha Egg egg eggnog in the ma, ma, ma, mana, mah [continues to become more indistinct]

[SONG CONTINUES IN THE BACKGROUND]

JAKE: So, at the end, it kind of descends into incoherence.

SONNY: You gotta end the song somehow, I mean ...

GEOFF: Yeah and I wanted to sing, so I did the little, um, that [sings] "Eggggggnooooog. Eggggggnooooog."

SONNY: Yeah. Which, it just sounds good. The incoherence -- I mean, like, I could have sung that verse three times, but, like, why not let it break -- I mean --

JAKE: Like, I feel like I've seen you do it live where that part of the song goes on a lot longer.

SONNY: Sometimes, live, a lot of our songs go on a lot longer than they should. [laughter]

GEOFF: Like in two minutes. Yes. [laughter]

SONNY: One time, I kept the Snow Plow song, I kept going so long --

['PUT THE PLOW DOWN' PLAYS:]

I set off to work one morning, And it had already started to slow.

['PUT THE PLOW DOWN' CONTINUES TO PLAY IN THE BACKGROUND]

SONNY: -- that -- You know, this is a song where it kind of, through the song, I kind of count up the inches and feet of snow, until it gets to a hundred or, like, yeah, until a hundred and then, like, that's the end.

['PUT THE PLOW DOWN' CONTINUES TO PLAY:]

... but they weren't doing a very good job. I mean, it's like they're afraid to let the blade actually touch the snow! Instead, it just skims right across the top. And that is no help at all. So I say: Put your plow down, mister. Help us out. It's getting deep, four inches, about. Now, put your plow down, mister. Help us out. It's getting tough to drive around here with all the snow. So put your plow down, mister. Help us out. It's getting deep, eighteen inches, about.

['PUT THE PLOW DOWN' CONTINUES TO PLAY IN THE BACKGROUND]

SONNY: So, typically, now, it's like, four, eighteen, thirty, fifty, eighty, a hundred. But there was one Christmas holiday show that we did that I started four, and then I kind of, I might have went to ten, and then, like, eighteen, and twenty-five, and ...

['PUT THE PLOW DOWN' CONTINUES TO PLAY:]

... tough to drive around here with all the snow. Well, put your plow down, mister. Help us out. It's getting deep, eighty inches, about. Now, put your plow down, mister...

['PUT THE PLOW DOWN' CONTINUES TO PLAY IN THE BACKGROUND]

SONNY: It just, like, went on, like, forever, to the point where Geoff stopped playing. [laughter] He just stopped, and just waited for me to get up to a hundred, and then we finished the song. That was --

GEOFF: Yeah, I'm sorry I left you there.

SONNY: I felt really bad. No, I felt really bad about that.

GEOFF: I shouldn't have done that.

SONNY: I was like like, wow, I went on way too long.

['PUT THE PLOW DOWN' ENDS:]

... put your plow down, mister. Help us out. It's getting tough to drive around here with all the snow.

JAKE: Do you have any stories about performing the song?

GEOFF: I think of it as a solid "go to" song if we're starting to lose the audience, that is a hit.

SONNY: I think every holiday show, probably, and maybe because we don't -- our songs are short, so our sets are short, and we only have a few holiday or winter songs, so we can't do a whole set, and a lot -- The holiday shows, we always kept family friendly, because there were kids there, and most of our topics aren't really of interest to kids. Anyway, this is a long way to say that we would start the show with Roelle Family Christmas, and end the show with Roelle Family Christmas.

GEOFF: And probably play it a couple of times in the middle, there, too.

SONNY: Yeah. it was -- maybe when there was -- it was, we were starting to lose the crowd. "OK, we'll play this one!" and then, that's it, Merry Christmas everyone!

JAKE: So, if people want to hear more of your music, what should they do?

GEOFF: Well --

SONNY: Invite us over. [laughter]

GEOFF: Well we have, um, I think we have sentimentalfavorites.com.

JAKE: You're definitely on Bandcamp.

GEOFF: And we're on Bandcamp as well.

SONNY: 75orLess still has, I think, all but one of the CDs that we heaped on them years ago.

GEOFF: Because they sold one of them.

SONNY: Did they? Or -- I don't even know.

GEOFF: And if you -- If you order a CD through Bandcamp, the next five people to buy them through Bandcamp will get a free poster --

SONNY: -- that has every lyric.

JAKE: Nice. So we're recording this in on September 1st, and I haven't taken my air conditioner out, but I'll probably release this in early December, so, you know Christmas shopping.

GEOFF: There you go. It makes a great gift.

JAKE: Yes.

SONNY: If you -- Yeah. We have. Um. Yeah. It's -- Man, everyobody will just love this album.

GEOFF: It's a good record.

JAKE: I like it a lot.

GEOFF: Good.

JAKE: If people are interested in checking out my music, or my other projects, I have a -- well, as I record this -- a new Web site, jacobhaller.com, that has links to everything, and I have a website for this podcast at tellmeaboutyoursong.com, and I'm going to put together a blog post with links to the Sentimental Favorite albums and everything, and maybe some other things we talked about, and people can find that at yoursongpodcast.tumblr.com, and I've been trying to put together transcripts for all the episodes, and post those as well, so that will be there too. And, with that said ,we'll go out by listening to the song we've been talking about, Roelle Family Christmas by the Sentimental Favorites. Enjoy!

['ROELLE FAMILY CHRISTMAS' PLAYS IN FULL:]

Egg egg eggnog in the ma-ma-moustache of my fa-fa-father is funny, ha ha ha ha Egg egg eggnog in the ma-ma-moustache of my fa-fa-father is funny, ha ha ha ha Christmas time with the Roelles: Lego sets and stockings, sweaters, socks, and magazines. Someone always gets a bowling shoebox from the 80s that later will hold the angel 'top the tree that Grandma made. Egg egg eggnog in the ma-ma-moustache of my fa-fa-father is funny, ha ha ha ha Egg egg eggnog in the ma-ma-moustache of my fa-fa-father is funny, ha ha ha ha Christmas eve is shrimp cocktail, li- ttle meatballs, cookies, and fudge, and Christmas day we will eat lasagne. On the ride home, I'll snack on stocking food, like nerds and combos and Durkee french fried onion rings that I love. I can't wait for -- Egg egg eggnog in the ma-ma-moustache of my fa-fa-father is funny, ha ha ha ha Egg egg eggnog in [becomes indistinct] Oooooooooooo

GEOFF: The shoe box makes me think of -- so now -- And, being a parent, we're, my wife and I are always surprised, and delighted, but often -- often surprised, and we will forget what has become a tradition, because we don't realize it, the sort of irrational way that something that happens once can become the thing that we do every year, and the things that we knock ourselves out on, the kids are completely oblivious to, to the point where we -- So we raised our kids as Santa Claus atheists, and they -- We've never, we've been quite up front with them with that Santa Claus doesn't exist, and that "From Santa" is a nice way to, is just a nice way to give a gift, totally anonymously, from one person to the other. So the kids, when they were little, would pick out something for mom from Santa, you know, and that would be, like, even more fun, because then they wouldn't know that it was Judy's present for Mom, and that game -- But then it quickly curdled from -- well, curdled is a strong word -- but they went from -- whereas other kids believe in Santa, but suspect that maybe it's not true. We found ourselves with kids that were having -- we were telling them that Santa wasn't true, and they began to suspect strongly that maybe Santa Claus -- their parents were not telling them the whole truth, and that there was really a Santa Claus, and that they were on to us --

SONNY: Wow.

GEOFF: -- and their little secret, because they -- so they would -- each year, there would be some kind of, like. "Well then how did this get in the house?" Or like, well, but then, "Oh, who ate --" and Judy would still say, you know, "Who ate the carrot for the reindeer? Because Dad doesn't like carrots, and so it couldn't have been dad, so it must have been a reindeer."

SONNY: We -- we're still debating what to do about the Santa dilemma.

GEOFF: Your guys are two? three?

SONNY: They're three. Yeah, they just turned three, and -- It wasn't anything we did. I mean, they go to daycare a couple of days a week, and, other than that, Santa is everywhere, and they just -- they just know about Santa, through all of that. Santa came to their daycare ...

GEOFF: Oh, man.

SONNY: ... you know. And, so, it was like -- It wasn't because we told them, they're all -- They love Santa, and they're all about it. I don't think that they understand what the concept of Santa is, and that he brings gifts, or anything, it's just, as a character, they love Santa. So we're not going to fight that. Like, go ahead and love Santa, you know, that's great. We're not telling them anything is real, or isn't real, we're just, you know. And it kind of, like, has grown to tradition, in Pam's family and in mine, where, you know, the big present of the day, is what's still written from Santa. I mean, there's no -- I think that just tells you that, oh, this one you open last, kind of thing.

GEOFF: One thing my parents did to move us off of the Santa thing, and sort of break it to us, because it was getting -- we were getting a little old for it, which we do in our house too, so I guess it's a tradition that, in spite of -- it's an anti-Santa tradition -- they would give me a -- when I got a baseball glove, it would be from Reggie Jackson.

JAKE! Hmmmm!

SONNY: That's cool.

GEOFF: Or the 'From:' would be a clue. So our kids get presents from -- and it's fun to be obscure, and not to have it be from Harry Potter, but to have it be from Neville Longbottom, and then they're like -- and to the point where then they say, "Well, you know, Dad doesn't know about the Harry Potter books, and so, must be Santa who wrote Neville Longbottom on there."

JAKE: Your kids are Santa Claus truthers! [laughter]

GEOFF: But that's fun, and that's a fun game, though it does get a little, like -- 1:00 in the morning, on Christmas Eve, it can be a little bit patience-testing, to be sitting there thinking of clever things to make all of the gifts from, but ...

SONNY: My mom used to make codes -- like number codes -- and put them on the gifts that were put out, you know, like, the week before Christmas, that, like, stayed under the tree. So we would have that week to, like, do -- like, figure out math riddles, to figure out whose present was which one.

GEOFF: Ohhhh.

SONNY: Which, the first couple of years, we were, like, really into, I think, and really tried to figure it out, and sometimes we did, and sometimes we didn't. But then, you know, it continued for a while, and we eventually were, like, "You know, if we don't figure it out, she's just going to hand us the right present anyway. Like, it's not like don't get it if we don't figure it out." So it kind of, like, lost its luster, and we just got presents.

GEOFF: That's a good example of the kind of tradition that a parent will knock themselves out on, and the kids are completely ungrateful.

[yoursongpodcast]

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For 'Tell Me About Your Song' #75, Ksenia Mack, Felicia Brady Lopez, Jane Grondin, and Katrin Peterson, all of the Porch Party Mamas, talked about Ksenia's song 'Broken Line', which is from their eponymous album. (Another member of the Porch Party Mamas, Kelly Riley, is on the recording, but was unfortunately unable to join us for the conversation.)

The photograph that inspired this song can be seen below, and was taken by Robert Castagna.

In the course of our discussion, we touched on the following:

Ksenia's husband Robert Castagna and his photographs

Gummy treats

Terry, Montana

The Kia Soul

Piet Mondrian

Mark Rothko

For more information about the Porch Party Mamas, check out their website, where you can buy their music and find out about upcoming shows. You can also find their music on CD Baby and iTunes, and they can be found on facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. If you go to one of their shows, mention that you heard them on this podcast -- they'd love to talk to you!

The 'Tell Me About Your Song' icon was designed by Shaenon K. Garrity.

If you want more information about your host, Jacob Haller, then check out my web page, my facebook page, or my twitter account.

'Tell Me About Your Song' on iTunes - rate and review us!

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Episode Transcript:

[Note -- I tried to identify who said what in the episode, but likely made a number of mistakes. My apologies for the errors, and take the attributions with a grain of salt. -jwgh]

NARRATOR: For this episode, I talked to the Porch Party Mamas about a song that one of their members, Ksenia Mack, wrote following a road trip with her husband. I asked her what she wanted people to focus on in the song, and here's her answer.

KSENIA: I don't know what to say. I think when you give people time to spend, you get a good result. You know, and I feel like my husband and I do have a good relationship, pretty much, regularly. But there's that connecting, that time to connect. Maybe I think that's important to me, and that's what I'd like people to get. There's time to connect.

NARRATOR: More about that road trip, the relationship between music and the visual arts, and collaborating on bringing a song to its final form -- all that, and more, can be found in today's episode of Tell Me About Your Song.

[EXCERPT FROM 'BROKEN LINE' PLAYS:]

And I've got nothing to do, but to lay here too, under wide open night skies...

JACOB: Hello, and welcome to Tell Me About Your Song, the podcast where I talk to musicians and songwriters about a song they've written. Today's song is 'Broken Line' by Ksenia Mack of the Porch Party Mamas, and I've got a few members of the band here to talk about it.

KSENIA: So I'm Ksenia Mack. I play guitar and sing for the group, and my name is spelled with a K. [spells it]

FELICIA: I'm Felicia Brady Lopez, and I also sing, and play accordion, and sometimes play bass, and guitar, and glockenspiel. [laughter]

JANE: And I'm Jane Grondin, and I mostly play fiddle, sometimes play a little guitar, and also sing.

KATRIN: And I am Katrin Peterson, and I play percussion and sing background vocals.

KSENIA: And we have one girl that's not here tonight, Kelly Riley, and she's a songwriter, singer, and plays bass primarily, but also can play guitar.

FELICIA: And ukulele!

KSENIA: And ukulele. [laughter]

JACOB: Excellent. So where would you guys like to start with this song?

JANE: Ksenia's also a painter. So she's, you know, very much into colors and landscapes and ...

FELICIA: Visual.

JANE: Visual, yeah.

KSENIA: My husband and I have taken road trips since our honeymoon. Our honeymoon was a road trip, and we went 8,500 miles, and after we got all through, we realized -- well, we realized it on the trip, too -- that we really like this, so we kept doing them, and we've been to all 50 states, and he's a photographer, and he was going to have a show at a gallery of some of his road trip photos, and he asked me to write a soundtrack for the whole show. So, after thinking, you know, that was not a good idea, going back and forth with him, I started writing pieces for this road trip. So the idea was that people would come into the gallery and look at the photographs, and then there would be music playing, and that would be the music that I wrote that would go with specific photographs. And so I needed a theme song for our road trips, and that's how I wrote this song, and I recorded it for that show, just a very small pressing, and all of these three girls came, and helped me arrange it, and recorded it, and then we recorded it again on our album differently, and more matured, after we spent some time with it. So this is the theme song for all those road trips. So I wrote a series of maybe eight to ten songs on this CD, and some of them were very, very short, because, you know, your attention span, if you look at a photograph, is not going to be that long. And then Robert paired the music with the photographs, so that you were literally supposed to -- instead of listening to, "Oh, and in 1817, Mary Magdaline decided to, you know, paint Mary Cassatt" hanging on the w -- instead of that, you would hear music instead, and what we found happened, was, when you look at a still photograph, and listen to music, and you actually have to stay there for all of, maybe, a minute, or two minutes, the photograph starts to move. It starts to actually, like, have the shadows change, and it was quite bewitching! But, it --

JANE: Especially if you're on your third glass of wine!

KSENIA: Yes! [laughs] Well, anyway ... It was also not really realistic. It didn't really work. People didn't really want to spend all that time listening to the music and walking through. So it ended up being that they just played it -- most of the time, they just played it while the show was up. And so the music just played.

JACOB: My impression from the email that I exchanged earlier is that it was inspired by a specific photograph. Is that true, or ...?

KSENIA: It is, actually. This photograph that I found when I was looking for the lyrics. So it's a -- It's a dark road with a yellow broken line, and it's, it's pretty empty, and a sort of a gray sky, you know, but it's, it's one of those wide open spaces, where you just see the yellow line, and then the broken -- broken line. Which, to me, actually makes a rhythm. Like, when you're in a car, and you're [claps a beat] and you listen to the rhythm of the wheels, and you listen to the -- In my mind, as a kid, I used to always make music out of the broken line in the road.

KATRIN: Right. I think that's -- I feel that that's the same thing with the percussion, that that's what I can remember. Seeing that image, and feeling like it's -- It's something -- You're moving all the -- you're moving constantly in that song.

KSENIA: Mm-hmm.

KATRIN: And I think that that's what we created.

[SONG BEGINS PLAYING]

KSENIA: The very first lyric I had was "I forgot what I just said."

[EXCERPT FROM 'BROKEN LINE' PLAYS:]

I forgot what I just said. I lost the ...

KSENIA: And so the lyric that came out was: "I forgot what I just said. I lost the thought that I had. It must have slipped between the seat and the drumbeat." But there are many lyrics that didn't -- There were many times I wrote that phrase over and over and over, without coming to that exact phrasing and point. So part of writing lyrics, I think, is -- What's really fun is all the bad ones, right?

JACOB: Mm-hmm.

KSENIA: All right. So I think it starts here. Oh, yeah.

I forgot what I just said. It fell between my thumbs, and slipped between myself and the thought that I just had.

[laughter]

I forgot what I just said. It slipped between the thought I had. Something slipped, dropped between the seat that ended up beneath my feet.

[laughter]

I forgot what I just said. It slipped down between the seats. One long moment playing drums inside my head. You're not so far away. As a matter of fact, you're right here.

I forgot what I just said. It slipped between the thought I had, Down between the dirty sheet, and the gummy treat beneath my feet.

KSENIA: Finally we get to:

[EXCERPT FROM 'BROKEN LINE' PLAYS:]

I forgot what I just said. I lost the thought that I had. It must have slipped between the seat and the drumbeat.

['Broken Line' continues to play under the following.]

KSENIA: So that's the one I kept. I pretty much should have probably kept the gummy treat one. [laughter]

JACOB: The gummy treat is good.

FELICIA: I think it's all right. [inaudible]

KSENIA: So it's just all those layers of lyrics I go through.

[EXCERPT FROM 'BROKEN LINE' PLAYS:]

... read my mind. And I've got nothing to do but to lay here too under wide open night skies,

KSENIA: Well, I wrote a chorus, and I had a really good friend listen to it, and she said, "Well, I think you could go further," and I knew what she meant -- it just wasn't good enough, and it took a, I'd say a couple of days for it to really evolve. But I really wanted to capture those long feelings of looking up at the stars, and just having nothing to do. Like, one of the things that I loved about being on a road trip with my husband, is that there isn't anything to do. We don't -- we actually leave without a plan. So we're not trying to get anywhere, or anywhere specifically. And so finding little towns, and having time to not do anything, together, evolves these kind of conversations that make you really feel very connected -- that you don't give yourself that space in everyday life, necessarily -- connected with the person and connected with your surrounding. And, also, it's just kind of like if you've had any fights, you know, they get kind of washed away as the miles go on. And, you know, you get in new fights when you're on a road trip, too. [laughter] You get in brand new ones.

JANE: Like when he won't stop at the bathroom for you. [laughs]

KSENIA: No, he always stops at the bathroom for me. [laughs] But, yes, right. That's -- that's your husband. [laughter]

FELICIA: But, you know what? But I have something to say about that. Because maybe it was subconscious, but when you do your verses, you're telling the story, it's more wordy, and the notes move more often.

KSENIA: Mm-hmm.

FELICIA: Then, when you get to the chorus --

ALL SING: And I've got nothing to do ...

FELICIA: It's like, you're not doing anything, just holding these notes ... [sings] "... but to lay here too."

KSENIA: Yeah, it's just all this space.

FELICIA: Very simple, and, yes, spacious. I'm sure you meant to do that.

KATRIN: [sings] Under wide open night skies ...

KSENIA: I love that. [laughter] Good. Thank you, Felicia.

JANE: One thing that I like about the chorus of this song in particular is that I feel like it's -- By the time the audience hears it again, like, the second time around, it's pretty easy to sing along with, or to hum along with, or, you know -- it's pretty easy for an audience member, even one who's not that familiar with the song -- you know, it would be a song that I would easily be able to hum along with. You know how, some songs, you might start tapping your toe to them? This one is one that you -- I feel like you could, you could sing along with pretty quickly.

[EXCERPT FROM 'BROKEN LINE' PLAYS:]

... Dark road, broken line. Brilliant yellow, baby blue. The sky and land divide in two: A Mondrian without end...

KSENIA: So my husband and I were in Terry, Montana. Like, we decided, we don't know where we're going, and we're, we just want to keep going further west, further west, and my husband Robert once says, "I just want to go to this town where there's nothing." Well, there was a lot of towns with nothing, but it had to have a bar, and it had to have a hotel, and the neon light from the hotel would -- you could see it flash all night long in our room, and it was like: "MOTEL. MOTEL. MOTEL." You know? [laughter] And it was really a very, actually, kind of nice place, and it had this upstairs balcony that looked out over the street. It was, like, such an old honky tonk, you know? And we were driving a red Kia Soul. So I go in the morning to buy groceries in the grocery store, and I see they have wine, and we were out of wine, so I thought I'd pick up a bottle for the evening, right? And this lady says, "Oh, we don't sell wine at seven in the morning." And I say, "Well, that's a good thing, because I don't drink wine at seven in the morning, but I wanted one for later tonight." And she goes, "We saw your outfit, coming down in that red Soul ... [laughter] ... from Massachusetts. We see --" I was, like, "Wow!" And I put the wine back, you know? And -- But the funny thing is, is that Rob was really into taking photographs, and he was taking abstract photographs of Terry, Montana. So he would walk up to some building that had a little blue, a little white, and a little red square, and get really close with his camera, and take these pictures. And so that was Mondrian to me. You know, that -- the painter Mondrian? But the whole funny thing about me saying it's a Mondrian without end is that is actually a Rothko, with the one, one block in one color, and a horizontal line, and another block in another color, so I actually ended up saying the wrong artist, and Rothko just doesn't work in the song. [laughter] So Mondrian stays. And, anyway, I'm sure that's a big garbled image, but that's the whole second verse sitting right there.

[EXCERPT FROM 'BROKEN LINE' PLAYS:]

A Mondrian without end... Red glare window through the night, From that hotel neon light. This town was a poker game that saw us coming. What was its name?

JACOB: Do any of the rest of you, sort of, remember when you first, kind of, encountered the song and what you had to say about it?

JANE: I mean, I remember working on it in your living room, but was that before we worked on it for the 'Lost Across America' project?

KSENIA: No. That was two weeks before we recorded it for the 'Lost Across America' project.

JANE: OK.

KSENIA: Two weeks before.

KATRIN: And that was that photo exhibit that they're talking about. It was called --

KSENIA: That was the name of it. 'Lost Across America.'

FELICIA: I just remember it feeling pretty new when we recorded it, because it was new, and now it feels like such an old, familiar, comfortable song, like an old sweater you put on, you know?

JANE: Yeah.

FELICIA: So we were still getting to know it, back then.

JANE: Mm-hmm. And we kept -- I feel like we kept it pretty simple. It's a fairly uncomplicated arrangement. On the fiddle I'm doing, like, practically nothing on the whole song other than just a, a shuffle.

[EXCERPT FROM 'BROKEN LINE' PLAYS:]

Brilliant yellow, baby blue.

KSENIA: But that shuffle is, like, a road -- it's, like, a --

JANE: Yeah, I wanted -- I wanted to create the road imagery, to keep that going, and that's pretty much all I'm doing, so that it has that pulse to it.

KSENIA: You know, we recorded the song twice. Once was way before we were ready, for this little album that I released with the show, and then another time, after the song had gelled, and they were coming up with parts right in the recording space, and then laying it down, and not making any errors. I mean this was just, like, boom boom boom, and it was done. And then, you know, maybe the second time through, they'd say, "Hey, I think I'm going to play this, and you're going to play that," and they would just come up with this swelling beautiful line, and it was done!

[SHORT, ACOUSTIC VERSION OF 'BROKEN LINE' PLAYS]

FELICIA: I think some nice touches, though, are Jane, the fiddle player, had an idea of having an ascending scale in thirds that she does on fiddle and I do on accordion while we're singing backup in the chorus.

[EXCERPT FROM 'BROKEN LINE' PLAYS:]

... Under wide open night skies,

FELICIA: I think that adds a really nice line. And the break in the middle -- I remember, when that happened, we wanted to do -- We wanted to just do something really different, and do percussive sounds on our instruments, but in a non-conventional way.

KSENIA: And in the recording, the weird -- The honest truth is, we recorded that song, and we forgot to put all that percussion in it, and we do that live. And so, we left the recording studio, and it was blank -- we left this -- sort of nothing is really happening in that section, and so we went back, and I dropped a little piano in it, in the recording and that brings the volume way down, and that's ...

[INSTRUMENTAL SECTION FROM 'BROKEN LINE' PLAYS]

KSENIA: And then these lyrics -- You know, there's a little tiny verse left, and then we go back into the thing, with a little bit of bass.

[EXCERPT FROM 'BROKEN LINE' PLAYS:]

I've got nothing to do but to lay here too under wide open night skies while those times we failed to connect ourselves fade on dark road ...

KSENIA: We start to bring it all back up again.

[EXCERPT FROM 'BROKEN LINE' PLAYS:]

... broken line. And I've got nothing to do but to lay here too under wide open night skies All those times we failed to connect ourselves fade on dark road, broken line.

[MUSIC CONTINUES TO PLAY UNDER THE FOLLOWING]

KSENIA: And then just fade it out at the end, as if the car is just pulling away into the distance, and then, finally, you can't see it anymore.

FELICIA: And we make the ending kind of drawn out, actually, by doing the vocals with an 'oooh' sound, instead of the words, and we drop that out, and it's just the instruments, and so it really is like a, just a slow, slow, fade out into the horizon. [chuckles]

[EXCERPT FROM 'BROKEN LINE' PLAYS WITH 'OOOHS' UNTIL THE SONG ENDS.]

FELICIA: There is a hopefulness in the performing of it. Like, quiet, content hopefulness and joyfulness. It's very stable, always, singing it. And I just know when I'm singing it, and I do the harmony with Ksenia -- it feels really great. It just feels like, a -- You know, in this world that's so unstable, and sometimes scary, and we're sometimes, you know, ripped apart from one another in small and big ways. And then to offer this to an audience -- it's usually our second song in the set -- and it's not busy, and it's calm. We can look out to the audience, and I feel a real connection with them, and with the band, when we're performing this.

KSENIA: I didn't know that.

FELICIA: Well, you know, you sit here, and talk about a song, and you realize, "Wow, yeah, that actually -- that's what it feel like when we perform it.

JANE: And it's true.

JACOB: If people want to hear more of your music, what should they do?

KSENIA: Oh, I think they should go to PorchPartyMamas.com, and I think you can download the songs from there. You can order them on CD Baby, and you can also download them from iTunes.

JANE: And you can also just contact us directly through the website, and we'll send you a physical copy. You can go to any of our shows.

KATRIN: We are also on Facebook and Instagram. A little bit on Twitter, but we're not really Twitters. Tweeters.

JANE: We don't tweet. [laughter]

FELICIA: But if people come because they heard the podcast, and they come hear us live: Please come and introduce yourselves to us. [sounds of assent] We would love that.

KSENIA: Well, Jacob, how about your music? Where can we find yours?

JACOB: Well, that's very nice of you to ask. My name's Jacob Haller. You can find my music at music.jwgh.org. And, actually, I recently created a kind of master website that links to my music, and my podcasts, and everything that I'm doing, and that's at JacobHaller.com [spells it].

KSENIA: Jacob Haller? [spells it]

JACOB: Correct. And I have a website for this series at TellMeAboutYourSong.com, and I also -- I'm going to put together a blog post with links to all of your websites, and everything we've been talking about, and people can find that at yoursongpodcast.tumblr.com [spells it]. So, with all that said, we're going to go out by listening to the song we've been talking about: 'Broken Line' by the Porch Party Mamas. Thanks for listening.

['BROKEN LINE' PLAYS IN FULL.]

JANE: You just roll! We're going to go -- we're going to be spontaneous.

JACOB: OK, great. I love it!

JANE: [inaudible] She'll roll with it.

KATRIN: And we have cookies too, so we're all set.

JACOB: Oh, man!

KATRIN: I know. I wish we --

JANE: Sorry we can't share them with you.

JACOB: I know! I should have cookies. [laughter] That's poor planning on my part.

JANE: We have Hershey's ...

JACOB: Oh my God! [pause] All right.

[yoursongpodcast]

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For 'Tell Me About Your Song' #74, songwriter Kim Jennings talked about her song 'Here Now', which is from her album of the same name.

Here Now by Kim Jennings

In the course of our discussion, we touched on the following topics:

Rent, the play and the movie

The World Domination Summit

Brené Brown

Dan Cloutier

Bruce Springsteen's 'Born To Run'

You can find more of Kim Jennings's music on her website, where you can also find out about her upcoming shows. She's also a member of the band 'The Great Molasses Flood', frequently performs with Lori Diamond and Fred Abatelli, and can often be found at the open mike at the Amazing Things Art Center in Framingham, MA.

The 'Tell Me About Your Song' icon was designed by Shaenon K. Garrity.

If you want more information about your host, Jacob Haller, then check out my web page, my facebook page, or my twitter account.

'Tell Me About Your Song' on iTunes - rate and review us!

'Tell Me About Your Song' on stitcher - rate and review us!

'Tell Me About Your Song' rss feed

'Tell Me About Your Song' on Facebook

Episode Transcript:

NARRATOR: You know what? Kim Jennings just really loves the movie 'Rent'.

KIM: I don't know if your listeners love it or hate it. I don't know if you love it or hate it! I, personally, love it. [laughs] I can't stop. I can't turn it off when it's on, but I have, like, a young son -- it's really not appropriate for him [laughs] -- so when it's on I have to, you know, put it on mute and watch captions, and turn it off when he's in the room, and all that good stuff.

NARRATOR: And she found herself thinking of one of the characters in the movie as she was preparing to go, well, um ... You know, I'll let her say it.

KIM: It was early summer, and I was getting ready to go to this event, that I was really excited about, called The World Domination Summit.

NARRATOR: You know, normally, I try to wrap up these little introductions in a way that will make you want to keep listening. But, uh, really, if hearing those two quotes together doesn't have you wanting to hear more, I'm really not sure what I can do for you. So, I'll just say: To find out more, keep listening to today's episode of 'Tell Me About Your Song'.

[EXCERPT FROM 'HERE NOW' PLAYS:]

And I wanted to believe That you could save me. You could save me.

JAKE: Hello, and welcome to Tell Me About Your Song, the podcast where I talk to musicians and songwriters about a song they've written. Today's guest is Kim Jennings, and the song she'll be talking about is named "Here Now", and is from the album of the same name. So, where would you like to start, Kim?

KIM: So I wrote this song back in 2012, which isn't, I guess, all that long ago, and I also revisited a movie/play that I love dearly: I had seen 'Rent' again. 'Rent', the film. It's set in the, I believe, like, late -- is it -- late 80s, early 90s, is when it's set -- and it's this coming of age story about a bunch of 20-somethings living in New York City, struggling with everything from, you know, unemployment, to high rent and rent control, to drug addiction, and, you know, people falling in love, in having -- and how AIDS is a part of that, and gender identity. It's a really -- there's just so much richness to every, to all these different characters. So the character that I was thinking most of when I wrote this -- There is a character, and she is dealing with a lot of -- a number of those issues in that laundry list that I just cited. So this is kind of from her perspective. So there's this lyric that's:

[EXCERPT FROM 'HERE NOW' PLAYS:]

All alone in the dark as the steam rises all night long.

KIM: So she has this very lonely kind of moment by herself. Like, she's in love with someone, but she still feels really isolated and alone, and maybe afraid at the same time and all that, and there are some images from the film that also show up in the lyrics, so the song has this, kind of, story of wondering where you belong, wondering how -- how you're going to be OK. And I think part of what came out of it, for me anyway, was that it doesn't -- it doesn't have a sad ending, it doesn't have a happy ending. It's just very, kind of, open-ended in that way, and that's, I think, where to "you can save me" part comes from.

[EXCERPT FROM 'HERE NOW' PLAYS:]

Then you take me in I wanted you to And I wanted to believe That you could save me

KIM: it was early summer, and I was getting ready to go to this event that I was really excited about called "The World Domination Summit", which sounds a little scary, but really isn't. It's not about taking over the world in a bad way. It's about community, adventure, and service, and trying to use whatever unique strengths and talents people have, and identifying them, and being with like-minded people, and trying to bring something of yourself to the world, and asking how you can be of service at the same time. So I was getting ready to go to that, and thinking about music, and thinking about, I guess, my place in the world. It was their second year of the event, and it seemed like kind of, like, "Oh! This could be a really big deal!", and they had opened up -- You know, they were having, like, you know, big mainstage speakers, and like Brené Brown was speaking there, and she's, like, amazing -- this amazing author. Anyway, so they had this, like, main stage with all the speakers, and then they decided to allow attendees to pitch workshop ideas, so I had pitched an idea, and was in this place, like, "Oh, am I going to get picked?" and "This would be really cool if I got picked! I'd be so excited, and I'd get to meet all these people, and --" Regardless of being picked or not, like, it was still awesome, but -- My idea was: Show up with your with your art-creating materials, whether you're a songwriter and you show up with a ukulele, or a pen and paper and you're going to write lyrics, or a poem, or your art and you're bringing your charcoals, or what have you, and we come up with a topic, and we sit in this room, and whatever people can come up with in an hour -- and then we have time at the end, and we just share it. That was my idea, was like: Art on the spot. So, but, my idea didn't get picked, but I got to, like, the second round, so I was all excited. But it was just this whole thing about: Am I going to fit in, in this community? Like, I have this really great, close-knit community here at home, and there are so many people doing so many amazing and interesting things, and traveling the world, and just out -- being kind of outside of yourself, so to speak. So it was really questioning of: Do I fit in here? Do I fit in there? Do I fit in everywhere? Anywhere? everywhere? What am I doing with myself? What am I doing in life? What am I doing with music? Why am I here? You know, all of those, kind of wrapped up into this excitement, and anticipation, and, kind of, questioning what I'm doing with myself and with my life, too, at the same time. So, yeah, yeah, it was a really interesting time. But, so that's, I think, the first lyric.

[EXCERPT FROM 'HERE NOW' PLAYS:]

I'm here now to find a place to belong. Millions of faces in one small space, I should find it. I should find it.

KIM: At least for me, it's like, no matter where I am, I can still feel -- You're in a big huge crowd, and you can still feel very alone.

JAKE: Just to clarify, again: So, you put together this proposal for it, that was where you would, you know -- you and other artists would bring things, and, kind of, create at this event. But this song, also -- like, you weren't writing this song for that, per se.

KIM: No, the song was not -- was not for that. But I wrote it at the time when I was going through that experience of --

JAKE: Right.

KIM: "Do I belong here?" Yeah. Yeah.

JAKE: Is the music of the song influenced in any the way by the music of "Rent"?

KIM: It's definitely a ballad, and there are, maybe, aspects of it where, maybe, I was thinking of it like Broadway, but for the most part, not much. But I had visions of, like, sets in my head -- like, I had visions of [laughs] what it looks like when, if you're on a stage singing the song. Like, for sure. Definitely. But I don't think it drove how I wrote it. Does that makes sense?

JAKE: Yes, I think so. [Kim laughs.] Like, how do you visualize it?

KIM: I see, like, a side back street in a New York alleyway, with, you know, steam rising out of, you know, the, you know, the sewer caps, and all of that stuff. I see, you know, lights in the sky, replacing what would maybe be stars if you were somewhere else -- if you're on a stage, like, you know, just kind of the idea of, of -- you know, there's just so much space. And yet, when you're in the city, there isn't. Like, you're so constrained, you're so -- you're in the middle of the hustle and bustle of everything. And there's, there's, there's so much going on around you, that you -- that you can't help but feel alone. Like, that's -- So, so -- just kind of sitting up on an outside balcony, you know, outside of an alleyway, in the dark, in New York, and people are running around down below, and there's, maybe, whatever's happening up on the corner that's not really all that great, or -- You know, the cops go by. Just -- There's just, there's just so much activity, and yet there's so much isolation.

[EXCERPT FROM 'HERE NOW' PLAYS:]

I have my whole life ahead. I'm so young. Millions of lights in time and space. I should find it. I should find it.

JAKE: You're right. I mean, not that I am any expert in Broadway, but I don't feel like that sounds like a Broadway song. But I feel like there's a type of Broadway song, where, like, basically someone comes on stage, and it's, like: "Here's my deal." You know? Like --

KIM: [laughs] Yes.

JAKE: "Just to be clear, this is where I'm coming from. This is my, you know -- This is my deal." And --

KIM: The quiet moment when the person comes on the stage, and has to tell their part of the story. Like, that's what the song is. Yes. yes. Yup. I could see that.

JAKE: Yeah.

KIM: I definitely have a vision of standing on a stage, in a completely empty auditorium, with tiny little lights on everywhere, singing the song. I've definitely envisioned that. [laughs]

JAKE: You should do it. That could be the music video.

KIM: [laughs] Yeah.

[EXCERPT FROM 'HERE NOW' PLAYS:]

So many people -- How can I be so alone? Millions of footsteps Chasing me down. chasing me down. And I can't run. I can't run.

JAKE: The repetition of the word "millions", which appears a couple of times at the beginning, and then comes in at the end, and is, kind of, more threatening then.

KIM: It's a cyclical thing. Like, you want to feel better, and then you don't, and then you want to, and then you don't, and then you feel better, and then you don't, and then -- You know, there's millions of lights in the sky, and maybe that makes you feel peaceful, or hopeful, or that there's got to be a place for me, there's so much space out there -- and then you don't, because -- because it's -- because it's weighing down, because that can also weigh you down so much. Like, that, yeah, no, that's a really good -- Good catch! [laughter]

JAKE: I appreciate your encouragement.

KIM: Yes. I think the vocals being more, kind of, quiet and, you know, just solo at the beginning, and then having them come having them come in, and kind of building, and building, and building, definitely ties into, I think, thematically in the song. So "I'm here now to find a place to belong," [excerpt of song plays] and then, you know, you find someone, and you realize maybe you're not alone, or you could be alone with each other, or you want to be alone with each other. But maybe that other person also feels alone, and you don't know if you can trust them. So the idea of adding and layering the vocals, I think, in some respects, like you said, serves to move the song to a particular kind of feeling of a climax, and then, in kind of that end part, which I don't even know what to call it, in the "So many people ..." I think of it as a bridge. I suppose it is.

[EXCERPT FROM 'HERE NOW' PLAYS:]

How can I be so alone?

[CONTINUES TO PLAY UNDER THE FOLLOWING:]

KIM: ... and how, so it's building to a climax, and then everything kind of falls away --

['HERE NOW' BRIDGE CONTINUES:]

Millions of footsteps Chasing me down. chasing me down.

KIM: So, you know, people are coming in, and you're letting them in, and these harmonies are layering on, and that -- that adds to that feeling of being with people. And then they're gone. And then you're alone again.

[BEGINNING OF 'HERE NOW' PLAYS]

KIM: I wanted there to be drums in the song. There's electric guitar in the song. But I wanted it all to be there, but the piano really kind of taking the forefront.

['HERE NOW' CONTINUES:]

I'm here now to find a place to belong.

KIM: I love the electric guitar that -- you know Dan Cloutier -- so he did electric guitar on a whole bunch of songs on the album, and I really liked how it not just, like, filled out the song and the sound of it, but really just kind of -- It just brought it to a whole another place.

['HERE NOW' CONTINUES:]

I have my whole life ahead. I'm so young.

KIM: I don't know. I've never really done, like, the rock band thing, in terms of, you know, "Well, the drum's responsibility is this, and the bass does this."

JAKE: Mm-hmm.

KIM: But, yeah, as the song writer, for me the piano is definitely, like -- and it's because it's a percussive instrument, and that's, to me, what's driving it more, even, musically -- with the electric guitar really kind of holding that bottom, too.

['HERE NOW' CONTINUES:]

And I wanted to believe That you could save me

KIM: The first thing that came to me was the little riff [sings riff] But when I first wrote it, and when I first played it out, it was the same four notes, but in a different order. So it was [sings original riff]. And I went to an open mike, and I played it, and a friend came up to me and said, "Oh, I really like that song, but you know that, like, little riff that you're playing? It sounds a lot like Bruce Springsteen's 'Born To Run.'

[BEGINNING OF 'BORN TO RUN' PLAYS]

KIM: And it was. It was exactly the same little lick. And I was, like, "Oh, I have to change it." So -- "That's not good. I can't do that! I can't -- No, no, no, that can't be!" So I went home, and I went and reworked it, and so -- So that little bit -- which wasn't even my own, obviously -- led to the rest of the song, which, I think, for that reason, it was good, even though I changed it again. So "you could save me", you know, because it -- it's the same kind of place with that little riff [sings it] -- they come kind of together. If I have, like, words, and I sit at the piano, and I play four notes, and I have four words, and the next thing you know, you've got your chorus, kind of thing. Like that. But it started -- it started with the concept. Because sometimes, like, you know -- When I first started writing, it was all lyrics first and then putting it putting music to it, and then I think -- I feel like, as time goes on, it's more, do I take time to sit and, like, noodle around, and then a melody comes out of it, and then I use it in a song. And this -- So this was something like the beginning of that. I had images, but not lyrics yet, and then the, the music helped kind of set the mood for figuring out what the words needed to be.

JAKE: So if people would like to hear more of your music, what should they do?

KIM: They can go to kimjenningsmusic.com. That's my music web site. Although, I will say, I am in a somewhat newly formed band called The Great Molasses Flood, so greatmolassesflood.com is another place to catch up with me and my band -- my floodmates. [Laughs.] I also do a lot of backup for Lori Diamond and Fred Abatelli. I play djembe and sing with them. And I also am backing Dan Cloutier quite a bit, because he has a new record coming out, which is going to be awesome! So his CD release is in January, so those -- those are kind of ... Solo-wise ...

JAKE: I feel like I see you at the Amazing Things Art Center open mike sometimes -- well, not that I make it out there often, but --

KIM: Yes. That is my songwriting home away from home, for sure. All of my new songs go there. All of them.

JAKE: Well, my name's Jacob Haller, and I have a fairly brand new website at jacobhaller.com that has links to my music, and this podcast, and my other podcast, and other projects I got going on, so you can go there if you want to check that out. And I also have a Web site for this podcast specifically at tellmeaboutyoursong.com, and for every episode I put together links and things that we talked about, and recently I've been also posting full transcripts, and so you can find that on the blog at yoursongpodcast.tumblr.com [spells it]. So, with all that said, we're going to go out by listening to the song we've been talking about in full: "Here Now" by Kim Jennings. Thanks for listening.

['HERE NOW' PLAYS IN FULL. THE LYRICS CAN BE FOUND ON KIM'S BANDCAMP PAGE.]

JAKE: Hello, and welcome to Tell Me About Your Song, the podcast where I talk to musicians and songwriters about a song they've written. Today's guest is Kim Jennings, and the song she'll be talking about is named "Here Now", and is from the album of the same name. So, where would you like to start, Kim?

KIM: How about the beginning of the song? Or -- [laughs]

JAKE: OK. Strong choice.

JAKE: Unless. Unless. Unless you'd like me to do an overview. But we can start at the beginning of the song. That's fine, too.

JAKE: OK. [There is a noticeable pause]

KIM: So I should start talking.

JAKE: Uh, yeah. I mean --

KIM: Yes.

JAKE: Sure. [Kim laughs.] I -- Like, I also -- I edit these pretty heavily afterwards.

KIM: OK. [laughs]

JAKE: So, yeah.

KIM: So --

JAKE: Yeah. If you, you know -- whatever you -- however you want to -- If you -- Yeah. You're -- yeah. So talk about the beginning of the song, then.

KIM: OK. So ...

[yoursongpodcast]

Visit Original Link

For 'Tell Me About Your Song' #73, songwriter Natalie Gelman discussed her song 'Sundance in Your Eyes'.

Here's a video of Natalie playing the song on the streets of Park City during the Sundance Film Festival in 2012:

In the course of our discussion, we touched on the following topics:

The Sundance Film Festival in Park City, Utah

Meet cute

Natalie blogs about going to Sundance in 2010

The Guild D-55 acoustic guitar

Natalie's song 'Laugh So Hard You Cry'

The Sundance Channel

Vocal comping

Jesse Siebenberg

Todd Hannigan

Supertramp

You can find out more about Natalie Gelman and her music on her website, where you can also find her tour dates, listen to and buy her music, and join her mailing list.  She can also be found on Twitter, Facebook, Youtube, and Instagram, and you can find her music on iTunes, Spotify, or Pandora, among other sites.

The 'Tell Me About Your Song' icon was designed by Shaenon K. Garrity.

If you want more information about your host, Jacob Haller, then check out my web page, my facebook page, or my twitter account.

'Tell Me About Your Song' on iTunes - rate and review us!

'Tell Me About Your Song' on stitcher - rate and review us!

'Tell Me About Your Song' rss feed

'Tell Me About Your Song' on Facebook

Episode Transcript:

NARRATOR: Natalie Gelman hasn't always had a great time playing at festivals.

NATALIE: I guess I must have been depressed. Like, Becca actually said to people, "Hey, keep an eye on Natalie, because I'm worried about her," because whatever energy I was putting out there, it was, like, "Oh, my God, why am I here? I don't want to be here, and this is, like, gross, and hot, and dusty, and I need to leave."

NARRATOR: And when she started going to Sundance, it took her a while to get used to that, too. But listen to these lyrics:

[EXCERPT FROM 'SUNDANCE IN YOUR EYES' PLAYS:]

So dance with me under the sun. Let the snow fall down On you and me and everyone! It's a Main street romance Under Park City skies As I watch the Sundance in your eyes.

NARRATOR: So how'd she came to write this love song? Find out in today's episode of Tell Me About Your Song.

[EXCERPT FROM 'SUNDANCE IN YOUR EYES' PLAYS:]

... A silent film runs through the night. Fleeting scenes flicker on and off from somewhere distant - out of sight. They take me 'cross a million memories I had of lives I knew, Before my eyes caught sight of you. So dance with me ...

JAKE: Hello, and welcome to Tell Me About Your Song, the podcast where I talk to musicians and songwriters about a song they've written. Today's guest is Natalie Gelman, and the song she'll be talking about is named "Sundance In Your Eyes." So where would you like to start, Natalie?

NATALIE: There's just, it's, it's a -- You know, I had tried, before writing this one, to write a love song, and they'd always come out either bittersweet or, sort of, forced. And this is just, like -- It's a genuine love song that -- it's, like, the world's happening around them, and they don't care, but the world around them is wonderful, too. I mean, it's, um, a little -- not even really a play on words, but it's got -- the "Sundance" isn't "sun dancing", two words, "sun dance in your eyes." It's one word, because I got inspired to write this at the Sundance Film Festival. I had gotten into a relationship, over the course of that prior year, with somebody that I had met street-performing at Sundance -- and, now, we're actually engaged to be married, so -- [laughs] If you had told me that I would meet my future husband playing music on the street in Utah, I would think think you were crazy. So, basically, I wrote it about Brent. Brent and I had been dating for about six months at that point, and we had -- We met at Sundance, but, like, didn't actually talk, I just remember meeting him -- and there's a whole love story, and a very cute "meet cute" there. He walked up to me -- he was listening for a while -- and I remember thinking, "Oh, good. You're here." And it was just like this deep knowing of -- It was, it was just like, past life, like, I've known you forever, and you're -- Now I get to meet you again. Now I get to know you again. And I wrote that, kind of, in the second verse.

[EXCERPT FROM 'SUNDANCE IN YOUR EYES' PLAYS:]

They take me 'cross a million memories I had of lives I knew, Before my eyes caught sight of you.

NATALIE: It's very poetic, but I feel like it's there. [laughs] So that's where my intention is when I'm singing.

JAKE: So the first time you went, it sounds like, was six or seven years ago?

NATALIE: Yeah, I think it was in 2010 or maybe 9.

JAKE: Were you anticipating it being this, sort of, great thing that it's kind of developed into?

NATALIE: Oh, my God, no. I got there, and I wasn't playing a lot the first year I was there, and -- I was sort of socially awkward growing up, and I'm not very good at meeting people for the first time. Like, I sort of like to be -- I'm very outgoing on stage, and I'd say that I probably developed some sort of alter ego that's, like, kind of a bitch, like, a little bit of an aggressive New Yorker chick on stage, but in real life, like, on my day to day, I sort of like to be more of an observer, until I get to know people. So I like to, sort of, sit back a little bit, but that -- I also sort of get depressed doing that. Like, I sort of start to get in my own head about, like, "Well, OK, am I going to have any friends here?" And so I was there, and I'm staying, like -- My lawyer is the best. [laughs] So he would go -- his firm with go -- and some of the, you know, I don't even know what they call them, but, like, the paralegals, or, like, the people who are not super high up -- like, it's just a nice community of people, and then a few artists. And they'll rent this, like, huge house, and we'll all sort of crash in bedrooms, or on the couch, or even on the floor, or whatever, and get to go to the festival, and not have to, like, spend money. I mean, that's the big expense when you go to Sundance, is a place to stay, that's super close to the festival, so that you actually get a lot out of it. And so, I was there, and I didn't know any of the other artists -- I didn't know a lot of the people that worked for him that well -- and so that first year was really hard, especially those first few days, and I remember -- It didn't dawn on me to street perform. It was so freaking cold there, that, like, you know, it's not the first thing you think of. But I was walking back one day. I was walking on Main Street, and I saw this band playing music, and I was, like, "That's -- I'm just going to go play. Like, I need to play music, and there's always someone taking a nap at the house, or, like, whatever." And so, I just walked back to the house, got some paper, made a sign, and then went back out and I started street performing on Main Street! That, for me, was the turning point. And so, I'd been going for a few years -- so I was street performing, and someone from Fender heard me, and videotaped a clip of me singing a song, and then went and showed it to the person running the lounge, and they had me play at the lounge that year, and then they brought me back -- they reached out to me, as they were getting ready for the following year, and said, "Hey! We'd love to feature you. We'd love you to headline our lounge." So, at first I said "Yes," and then -- I'd sort of become friends with one of the people running the thing there, and he was, like, "No no no. Don't just say yes." Because there's no, like, money involved, like, not -- it's just a "play for exposure." But it's fun, and there is a chance for exposure there. And he said, "No, don't just say yes. Ask them to give you a guitar." And I did, and I called them right back, and asked for a guitar, and they said yes. And I was expecting to show up and be given, like, you know, a simple Fender guitar to, like, start playing on the street. And I showed up and they had three guitars that they had brought out for the festival, three Guilds, and I -- they said, "Pick one." And I picked up this D-55 -- and I was talking to my friend the whole time I was, like, trying out the guitars -- and, like, sort of, my mind was blown already about -- "Oh my god. I really get to have one of these? Like, you're kidding right." Like, I just didn't believe him. And I just kept hanging out with this D-55 and immediately started writing this song. And that's the guitar that I'm playing in that video that you are talking about, where I played in a few days after.

[EXCERPT FROM LIVE VERSION OF 'SUNDANCE IN YOUR EYES' PLAYS:]

You put the beats in my heart. Line them up like the edges of a song I used to know. Sang me to sleep ...

NATALIE: The chords were just coming to me, and the melody was coming to me, and even the lyrics, a little bit, and this -- all of this happened over, like, two minutes, five minutes, you know. And he says to me, "Could you change the words in, like, 'Laugh So Hard You Cry', or one of your songs, to be about Sundance? Because we have a connection at the Sundance Channel, and we think we can get you on if you do that." And I was listening to him, like, doing that thing guitar players do, where they're, like, nodding their head, and, like, not really listening to you, and then it hit me what he said. And I was already doing this -- already had, like, the (sings melody). I generally write from top to bottom. Like, I don't usually come up with, like, the chorus first, or the bridge first. I generally write in the order that it appears, and, like, woodshed it afterwards. But I had a few -- like the opening line, or the opening few lines. and I said, "Well, what if I write a song about Sundance? Can you definitely get me on the Sundance Channel?" And he said, "Probably," and I said, "Well, tell them it's done already." And he e-mails or texts the producer over there, and the guy texts him back: "Great! Let's film her tomorrow morning at 10:00 a.m. Can she do that?" And I'm, like, "Totally! [laughs] Let's do that! Let me go write this song." And so, it was probably 5 o'clock in the afternoon the night before, so I had all of, like, 15 hours or so -- I don't know exactly what. Basically, I had that night to write the song, and it was the first night of Sundance, and I was like -- I mean, at this point, like, I'd been going there, and all those people sort of become your family, and, like, there's a lot of musicians that go there, and there's a lot of seeing those people once a year, and getting that, sort of, that camaraderie, and I wasn't willing to give up my first night at Sundance to write a song. So I wrote this song while I was running around Sundance that first night, and then just on my iPhone, having fun at the parties, drinking, laughing, and I'm writing the song. It was all written within -- I think by 1 o'clock in the morning I was sending this. And Brent wasn't there, actually -- I think he was meeting me there, two days later. And so I sent this to the producer of the lounge, who had the connection with the Sundance Channel, and to Brent, at like 1 o'clock in the morning, and they, they both of, one of -- you know, the producer wrote me back and said, "This is awesome." And to this day, he thinks that that first recording, that's like really quiet -- because I was recording it in the house that my lawyer was renting out, and letting us stay at -- I was recording it very quietly, and, like, really, it was a lullaby and he loves that recording, and was like you should put this out.

[EXCERPT FROM DEMO VERSION OF 'SUNDANCE IN YOUR EYES' PLAYS:]

Put the beats in my heart. Line them up like the edges of a song I used to know. Sang me to sleep, and woke me up inside a dream with you, And all our wishes coming true. So dance with me under the sun. Let the snow fall down, On you and me and everyone. It's a Main street romance Under Park City skies, As I watch the Sundance in your eyes.

NATALIE: But, so I went to go film it, and they give you this, like, thing, this contract to fill out that says that they'll own the rights to whatever it is you're doing. And so, it was sort of ironic that, at the end of it all, I was, like, "Oh, no. If you want to own this song, you need to license it, and, like, pay me big money for this. This is a good song." So that was kind of funny: At the end of it all, you know, I got up and filmed it the next day, and then was, like, "No, I'm not willing to sign this contract." But every year that I've gone back, it just has a -- a very deep sweetness. And it's so nice. Like, I feel like I've gotten so much -- my, my heart is always filled, going to that festival, and being with those people, and I really feel like it's so nice to, sort of, give that back.

[EXCERPT FROM DEMO VERSION OF 'SUNDANCE IN YOUR EYES' PLAYS:]

... watch the Sundance in your eyes Watch the Sundance in your eyes Ah-ah-ah-ah-ah-ah

[SEGUES INTO STUDIO VERSION OF 'SUNDANCE IN YOUR EYES':]

Ah-ah-ah-ah-ah-ah Ah-ah-ah-ah-ah-ah-ah Ah-ah-ah-ah-ah-ah Ah-ah-ah-ah-ah-ah Ah-ah-ah-ah-ah-ah-ah Dance with me ...

JAKE: The beat of the song is one of the things that struck me about it when I listened to it for the first time.

NATALIE: [sings beat]

JAKE: Because I heard a couple of versions of it. It's just, like, kind of this upbeat sort of --

NATALIE: Totally.

JAKE: -- bouncy ...

NATALIE: Yeah.

JAKE: I mean, the first line talks about the beats of your heart.

NATALIE: Yeah. When I play that live now, sometimes I'll encourage people -- I'll sing that first line ...

[EXCERPT FROM 'SUNDANCE IN YOUR EYES' PLAYS:]

You put the beats in my heart

NATALIE: ... and it's often, if they'll know me more, I'll try to get them to snap along. Some of the percussion on the recording is actually brushes on my guitar case. First I recorded it live, like, guitar and vocals, and then I actually comped my own vocals -- it's the first song that I actually -- We were under a really tight deadline, and, like, the guys who I work with were saying, "You know, if you want to take a stab at it, and put together, like, what you want the recording to be, go ahead." And so, they showed me how to comp vocals, and I sat there, and did that for two hours, and, like -- That was the first time I realized: "Holy shit! This is another step in the songwriting process! Like, this is the way for me to get what it is I hear in my head, in the final version." Because I was never happy, like, and I'm super critical of my work, and never 100 percent happy. But, like, I'm much more happy when I'm controlling my vocal, and that's what I've done on my new record, and this was the first song that I did that on. Which, any singer will know, like, -- if you want to love yourself, listening to your own voice, you know, really loud, without any sort of room reverb, or anything, is, like, not a gentle thing to do to yourself. So I did that, and then I brought it to Jesse Siebenberg to work on it, and, while in between scheduling that, Todd Hannigan, who's a friend of mine -- I had comped it in his studio, and he heard the song, and added a baritone bass guitar as the bassline for the song, and I had no input on that, and I just loved what he did. And then I brought it to Jesse Siebenberg, and Jesse and I added, like, a glockenspiel line that we wrote together, and I, like, showed him the pattern I was thinking for percussion. I think I had just toured with a friend of mine, and we played on each other's music, and I -- one of the things we did was, brought brushes, and shakers, and stuff, but we didn't bring a drum set. We just played on our guitar cases, for, like, a low, nice thud, and that kind of thing. And so he -- Jesse plays drums. His dad was the drummer for Supertramp, and I think Jesse's played drums for Supertramp -- I know he's sung for them -- and is just super talented. Like, he could play anything, and he just knew exactly what I wanted, or pretended he did and did it, and it was great!

JAKE: So, if people would like to hear more of your music, what should they do?

NATALIE: I have my own hub, my website, nataliegelman.com, and I'm also really active on Twitter, and Facebook, and YouTube, and all sorts of social media. Instagram. And then my music's pretty much everywhere -- every sort of streaming service. Yeah, if you look, you can listen on iTunes and Spotify and Pandora. Yeah. And I also give away -- It's really kind of nice thing, and a lot of people love my live recordings. I give away seven free songs when people join my email club on my website, nataliegelman.com. And then, every year, I send out a new free CD.

JAKE: Oh, nice!

NATALIE: Yeah, it's sort of fun. So this song is actually one of the free live songs that people get when they join my email club. But it's not the studio version -- it's a different version.

JAKE: And if people want to see you perform, are your dates on your website, and stuff like that?

NATALIE: They are. I'm adding a bunch for the fall that are not there yet. With the wedding planning, it's been, um ... [laughs]

JAKE: Oh, sure.

NATALIE: ... everything's been funny. But I've got a bunch on the East Coast in the works for November, and I'm always playing California and stuff, and I tour a lot to the Midwest, too, and hopefully getting back to Europe with the next CD. So ...

JAKE: Mm-hm.

NATALIE: Yeah.

JAKE: Well, if people want to hear my music, they can find it at music.jwgh.org.org, and I also just put together a brand new website at jacobhaller.com, with links to my music, and I have this and another podcast, and things like that, so people can check out that if they want. I also have a website for this podcast at tellmeaboutyoursong.com, and I have a blog, and I'll put together a post with links to all of your websites, and things, and some of the other things we've been talking about, and people can find that at yoursongpodcast.tumblr.com. And so, with all that said, we're going to go out by listening to the song we've been talking about, "Sundance In Your Eyes," by Natalie Gelman. Thanks for listening.

['SUNDANCE IN YOUR EYES' PLAYS IN FULL.]

[yoursongpodcast]

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For 'Tell Me About Your Song' #72, songwriter Barbara Cassidy and her husband and musical collaborator Eric Chasalow discussed her song 'Anna's Song - Shohola, 1864', which can be found on their album 'Leaving Things the Way I Found Them'.

We talked about the album version of the song, but a live version can be heard here:

In the course of our discussion, we touched on the following topics:

Shohola, Pennsylvania and the Great Shohola Train Wreck of 1864

The New York Times article about the wreck

Coal tenders

The Pike County Pennsylvania Historical Society has some information about the wreck online

Anachie Gordon

The Signature Sounds recording studio in Pomfret Center, Connecticut

Producer and musician David "Goody" Goodrich

Pump organs

For more information about the Barbara Cassidy Band, check out her website, and you can also get her music on iTunes, Amazon, and CD Baby.

The 'Tell Me About Your Song' icon was designed by Shaenon K. Garrity.

If you want more information about your host, Jacob Haller, then check out my web page, my facebook page, or my twitter account.

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Episode Transcript:

NARRATOR: In 2010, Barbara Cassidy and her husband, Eric Chasalow, found themselves traveling through Pennsylvania, where Barbara's family is from, with their son.

BARBARA: [laughs] There lots of things to do when you're taking on a young child on a long road trip -- and every time we were driving by, I'd be like, "Oh! That's where Shohola is. That's where my father's family comes from," as we're screaming down the highway on our way to one thing or another.

NARRATOR: She found herself being reminded of a family story about one of her forebears helping out six strangers during the Civil War. We'll be talking about that story, and the song that resulted from it, in today's episode of Tell Me About Your Song, Stay tuned!

[EXCERPT FROM 'ANNA'S SONG - SHOHOLA, 1864' PLAYS:]

Six strangers came upon our farm one day that mid July. Their step was slow, their clothes were torn, and Anna wondered why.

JAKE: Hello, and welcome to Tell Me About Your Song, the podcast where I talk to musicians and songwriters about a song they've written. Today I'm talking to Barbara Cassidy and Eric Chasalow, and the song they'll be talking about is named "Anna's Song - Shohola, 1864." So where would you like to start with the song?

BARBARA: We got invited to do this performance in Lords Valley, and I said, "You know what? There's this great family story, that I've heard ever since I was a child, about the great Shohola train wreck of 1864, and how it impacted my father's family. Why don't we try to write a song, right? Why not try --

ERIC: Yeah, that's -- yeah.

BARBARA: -- to write a song about this, because it's this very cool story, and we're going to go actually perform in the area where this took place." So it was a great inspiration I guess. It's what inspired me.

ERIC: And I said, "What? What are you talking about?"

BARBARA: Right. Right.

ERIC: I had never heard about this. I never heard about the Great Shohola Train Wreck, which turns out to be this monumental event towards the end of the Civil War, and Barbara starts telling me about this, and we do a little bit of research, and it's -- oh my gosh -- you know, this huge train wreck, and it's the civil war, and how can you not write a song about that?

BARBARA: So there was this, sort of, personal piece of it, which, suddenly, after hearing it all my life, it suddenly resonated. You know how you grow up, and there are all these great family stories, and they kind of, when you're young, they go in one ear and out the other, and I never really studied it. I never had a reason to go any deeper, or ask more questions, or really understand the enormity of this particular family story, or this particular event in history. So I think I ended up going back to sit down with my dad, and ask him to tell the story to me again, so I could really understand it. And it's really a very simple story.

ERIC: There's this historical event, which Civil War buffs would know, which is that there was a prison train heading north, to -- Elmira, NY, was it headed to?

BARBARA: Mm-hm.

ERIC: -- with Confederate prisoners, and there was a coal tender, or something, coming south, and these trains collide, and somewhere over 700 people are killed. It's just absolutely catastrophic. And, you know, that's a song, in and of itself, but in Barbara's case, it turns out there's this personal family lore, which makes the scene really intimate, and makes a different kind of song altogether.

BARBARA: So, the gist of it -- the long and short of the story is, is that, on the day the great Shohola trainwreck, my great-great-grandmother Anna was working on the farm, and was evidently far enough away to miss hearing the ruckus of the two trains colliding at top speed, and these six men showed up at the farm, and they were not in very good shape -- they weren't dressed well -- and they stopped, and asked for water, and she invited them in, and she fed them, and she found them spare clothes from the house, and then they went along their way. And it wasn't until afterwards -- either later in the day, or the next day, whatever -- however, when the news reached them, that they were in fact Confederate soldiers, prisoners of war, who were escaping.

ERIC: Of course, none of this can be confirmed, so it's -- this is all family lore.

[EXCERPT FROM 'ANNA'S SONG - SHOHOLA, 1864' PLAYS:]

Six strangers came upon our farm one day that mid July. Their step was slow, their clothes were torn, and Anna wondered why. As she headed out to greet them, they tipped their hats and asked, "May we trouble you for some water, Ma'am? and then, we'll move on past. soon, we'll move on past."

BARBARA: So, again, it was a story that I heard as a very young child, and, for me, it was my father's relationship with his past. In other words, as a child, he had very fond memories of living on this farm with these elders, and that -- it was special. The place was special to him. And so there was this history thing -- like, American history -- and then it was his personal history with it. So I think, as a young person, it was more of understanding the story as a way to communicate how he felt about living there, and maybe, you know, happy that this was how his family managed in this particular disaster.

[EXCERPT FROM 'ANNA'S SONG - SHOHOLA, 1864' PLAYS:]

Where are you goin' boys? asked she, and will you stop to sup? We can't stay long, we've far to go, a few weeks journey with a bit of luck. Anna fixed them a big dinner, and then she fed them well. What clothes she could she offered up, and soon they took their leave. Soon, they took their leave.

BARBARA: And so, here's where it got really interesting, because we'd also taken a trip to the Historical Society, the Pike County Pennsylvania Historical Society. They were lovely -- they just opened up this room, and there were all these wonderful artifacts, and documents, and -- about the town at the time, and about this particular incident, and then there are obviously other Army records, and things like that -- official records. And the takeaway was that the official records all agree that there were only five Confederate soldiers who were unaccounted for. But yet, my family's story is, is that, no, there were six. And when I brought my research back to my father, and said, "But you know, Dad, you know, the official documentation said there were five" -- Nope! He was adamant: There were six. There were six of these soldiers that showed up at the farm on their way, basically, back down south. I was drilling down to the details, because I like to get really specific when I'm thinking about a story, or I'm writing words, it kind of has to get really specific. So I wanted names and dates and ages and geographic locations, I looked at maps, I looked at the New York Times article on the great train wreck, and it, you know, it was great. I mean, it was -- I opened up yet another question, and then I had to go figure out what the answer to that one was. So I was clear, and I wasn't -- I wasn't making this up! This is really true! and I'm writing about something specific. There are a lot of people out there that are, like, way more knowledgeable about the Civil War than I am, and, more likely than not, really knowledgeable about this, because this was a huge disaster. So I kept, you know, going through this whole process of inquiry before I was able to then take all of the, sort of, verses I had and sort of hone them down to, sort of, a song, a good story song, that there was a beginning, a middle, and an end, and then to find the places where the personal part of it could come in.

ERIC: But the records of the Pike County Historical Society -- they're, there are oral histories that were taken down, and there are certainly stories -- there's at least one story of someone showing up, who was a Confederate soldier, and showing up on a local farm, and being hired to work through a season, actually, and staying with the family.

BARBARA: So again -- the other part is, yes, there were other people who should have gone to the prison in Elmira, but the locals basically adopted them, took them in, took care of them, and then let them go once the war was over. So I'm not at all sure, again, in this particular part of Pennsylvania, where the loyalties were -- if it was split, if there were folks who were really, you know, more than happy to help the Confederates, or whether or not, you know, they were just being humane. The takeaway from that is the way the town rallied in this, like, abysmal heat of July, to feed, clothe, and take care of a large number of horrific injuries. Many people died -- they had to be buried on the spot, before they could even be identified, because of the heat. I mean, it was, it was truly a disaster of immense proportions. And I think I read this, too -- one of the houses that was near the tracks, every piece of linen in their house was stripped for bandages, for whatever, you know. People brought food. They brought water. It brought anyone who was in that near vicinity together, to really come together, as a community, and take care of them and, it didn't matter that they were Confederates, or not -- that they were as well taken care of as one could, in a situation like that, at that time. So I was really impressed with that, so I like to think that that was my family's, in keeping with that community spirit, that would never turn a stranger away who is in want, and send them away a little bit better than they were when they came in. And I just thought, "You know, this is great! This really does need to be a song."

ERIC: There's so much detail, you know -- so much richness here. It could be a lot of songs. It could be a song cycle. But, in fact, this song -- you know, we're talking about this as if it's got a great deal of detail in it, but it's -- it's not a complicated song. You know, there's sort of -- It starts off with the story of this woman who is working on the farm, and these men arrive, and she takes care of them. And then, gradually, it's revealed, towards the end of the song, when this part of this music comes back, that it's -- they're going home down south, you know. And in the middle, there's a bridge section, which moves away from the farm, to the story of how the train wreck happened, actually. There's this central character who was the switchman, Duff Kent. He was known to, you know, to be drunk on the job, and I think he took the blame for this. But that's the middle of our song, because, you know, that's sort of here's the action on the farm, and then, here's the thing that set off this incident, and then we're back with the people again -- something more personal.

[EXCERPT FROM 'ANNA'S SONG - SHOHOLA, 1864' PLAYS:]

Duff Kent signaled the southbound train that the track through Shohola was clear, but a prison train bearing forty-score rebels, bound for Elmira was near. Duff, he was drunk again that day, so he just never did hear. Now some would live, and some would die, and some would disappear. Some would live, and some would die, and six would disappear.

JAKE: You said that originally the song, like, had just tons and tons of verses, and then, eventually, it comes down -- I think there's three verses and a bridge.

BARBARA: Yes. So I got really involved with the actual crash -- the logistics, if you will, the details of what happened, where it happened. I had a couple of verses about the townspeople coming out, and ministering, and trying to help them medically, bringing out food and water, and it got very -- more overarching about Shohola's reaction to the crash, and how the townspeople reacted to that.

ERIC: I remember, too, there was a verse in there after the bridge. You were singing about Anna realizing there had been a crash.

BARBARA: Right.

ERIC: And then we ended up cutting that out, and making that the instrumental, so it builds up to this point. And then, I said, "Let's not tell that. Let's just be let it be implicit, or a mystery. Maybe she knew, maybe she didn't know."

BARBARA: Yeah. There were two things that I wanted to be really clear about, and that is that for this to have any drama at all, she really could not have known who these guys were, and where they came from -- or she was a Confederate sympathizer, she knew very well who they were, and she was doing her best to scurry them along. So I chose that she really was unaware, and she was basically in keeping with the general, what I learned about the town, and how they behaved. She was just being a good citizen, you know, and then she heard about it afterwards. But there were -- there was a verse in there about her finding out about it. And I thought, "That's really not as dramatic as her not knowing." And also, it was getting to be a very long song.

ERIC: Probably you'd been learning 'Anachie Gordon' at that point, or some other traditional song with about a hundred verses.

BARBARA: There is a -- there is a history of traditional songs having many, many, many verses. You know, I don't know if a modern ear is so receptive to that. I think, you know, like I say, I wanted to go back to a beginning, middle, and end. I wanted it to be very clear. I wanted there to be some drama, and a little bit of mystery, in the story. And then, what you can add to it musically -- harmonically -- to make it sound like it really, kind of, was evocative of that era. It's sort of like paying homage, or it's like honoring the ancestors. I mean, I really felt I needed to do my best to get it right. I took great care with it.

ERIC: I remember you spent a lot of time, you know, paring down, and paring down, and refining this. But it wasn't as if -- You know, a lot of the shape was there. I think the bridge came after, as it often does. We really came up with the idea that the bridge would be that kernel that would tell you the larger story. But it -- again, it sounds like this went on for weeks. This was probably a couple of days.

BARBARA: So now he has all his guitars to work with, and I present him with these lyrics, and, again, the division of labor on this was: Here are the lyrics, and what can you give me? So that was the challenge, to sort of make this song sound sort of like a folk song, something very American folk song about it. You know, you've got a classic train wreck situation...

ERIC: You know, the way I work is: I -- if I see a lyric -- and I start to hear a tune, you know, usually pretty quickly.

BARBARA: His strengths have always been text setting. He can take impossible words, and, really, literally, make them sing. I enjoy sort of throwing words at him, and letting him figure out what they need to sound like, and sometimes that determines whether the song -- he gets to perform it, or I get to perform it, because we both sing. But this one in particular, I was really hoping for him to take it over, because it needed a particular kind of sound that I -- at the time I just didn't think I could muster.

ERIC: You know, the hard thing with writing folk music is to really capture something very pure, and, and, and keep it simple. You know, interesting, but simple. And what I feel -- I feel really good about this song, actually, and I always enjoy performing it, because, you know, there is a little bit of drama in the middle -- in the bridge -- and then, all around it, there's a kind of quiet, and it's just -- it's everyday life. But there's, you know, there's drama packed in there. There's that implicit drama in that, in the situation. But you've got to keep it simple, and simple it's hard, you know? I think maybe the hardest thing. And I think I settled on this chord progression, which is pretty simple, and then there's a bridge, which goes a little farther afield, but not very far afield really. And it was pretty comfortable. I think we were -- we were having fun. If I remember, you gave me these lyrics, and I worked with it a little bit, and then called you up into the studio -- the little room I have here that I keep as my studio -- and said, "Listen to this," and we were sort of laughing about it. It came, it came pretty naturally, pretty quickly, actually.

JAKE: The instrumentation kind of struck me. Is that a reed organ near the beginning?

[EXCERPT FROM 'ANNA'S SONG - SHOHOLA, 1864' PLAYS:]

Six strangers came upon our farm..

ERIC: It's actually a 19th century pump organ --

JAKE: Mmm.

ERIC: -- that -- You know, we recorded this at Signature Sounds down in Connecticut, Mark Thayer's studio, and we wanted this to have a kind of old sound to it, and a little bit of a kind of bluegrass ensemble or old timey ensemble kind of feel to it. And, you know, we had been playing it just with acoustic guitar, and we were hearing it was going to have fiddle, and we thought maybe mandolin (which didn't end up happening). You know, our producer, Goody, David Goodrich, is a great player, too, and he played Dobro on this, and then Ian Kennedy played fiddle, and Ian was terrific, but I didn't want to just launch into it with strumming guitar, and we saw this pump organ there, and we thought, "Oh, that'd -- What if we do that? That would be great, just this wheezing thing, you know, to start off the first verse." And it's a 19th century parlour instrument.

[END OF 'ANNA'S SONG - SHOHOLA, 1864' PLAYS:]

La la la.... (repeats)

JAKE: So the song ends on an unresolved chord.

ERIC: Yeah, I -- I like not buttoning it up, you know, with something that's, that's a real strong down beat, and just, you know, the end. I think there are questions. You know, certainly -- you know, Barbara made it really clear to me that there wasn't a definite attitude about whether Anna knows who these people are, or doesn't know, and we won't know what her feeling was about it, other than, I think it's very likely she was helping fellow human beings. And what are -- what the politics of this were, we'll never know. And, you know, it's always more interesting to ask questions, than to have answers, come up with answers. It's also, musically, the way this circles around, it keeps going from -- you know, it's basically G major (although it's A flat, but ...) and, you know, it circles around between G and E minor. You see, you've got that major minor interplay. And it keeps starting on a G chord, and then the phrases will come to an E minor, will end on E minor, which doesn't feel like an ending. You know, you've got to get back to a G to really feel like an ending. And it does that through the whole song, so it just felt right to do it again at the end, and leave it open ended that way, and I do think that there's a reason having to do with the, which has to do with the whole meaning of the song.

JAKE: So, I mean, we've basically -- I don't think I have any other notes. But is there anything else that you wanted to say about it?

ERIC: I think that's it about the song. You know, I think it's good to have an opportunity to let people know where to find the music, which is, it's Barbara Cassidy Band. We play as a duo a lot of the time, and when we can we play with other people, like Bob, and lately we've been playing with Jimmy Ryan some -- great mandolin player. You can find the CDs -- there are two of them at this point, we're working on another one -- and you can find them at barbaracassidyband.com, with links to iTunes, and Amazon, and CD Baby.

JAKE: And I'll put links to all those things -- I have a Web site for the series as a whole at tellmeaboutyoursong.com, and then I also post show notes on a blog at yoursongpodcast.tumblr.com -- that's T U M B L R. And I am also a songwriter myself, and if anyone wants to check out my music, you can find it at music.jwgh.org, or just google my name, Jacob Haller, which might be easier to remember. So, with all that said, we're going to go out and listen to the song we've been talking about in full. This is Barbara Cassidy and Eric Chasalow performing the song "Anna's Song - Shohola, 1864." Thanks for listening.

['ANNA'S SONG - SHOHOLA, 1864' PLAYS IN FULL.]

BARBARA: I will tell you, though -- it's very funny -- I think my mom felt a little bit left out that I haven't now written a song about her relatives.

JAKE: Mm-hm.

ERIC: Really? Oh my.

BARBARA: So I think the pressure's on to write about her side of the family.

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For 'Tell Me About Your Song' #71, songwriter Lys Guillorn discussed her song 'Turn the Page'.

Turn the Page by Lys Guillorn

In the course of our discussion, we touched on the following topics:

Lenticular printing

Memento mori

Catherine Vanaria, Lys's employer and colleague

The Battle of the Somme

Preserving social media for future historians

You can find Lys Guillorn's website at lysguillorn.com or littlecowgirl.com, or listen to and buy her music on her bandcamp page, or see some of her art on facebook.

The 'Tell Me About Your Song' icon was designed by Shaenon K. Garrity.

If you want more information about your host, Jacob Haller, then check out my web page, my facebook page, or my twitter account.

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Episode Transcript:

NARRATOR: Finding an anonymous photograph can be very evocative, and for Lys Guillorn, who's both a visual artist and a songwriter, this is doubly true.

LYS: The gaze of his eyes is so direct. There's just a haunting beauty to his face that I found really compelling.

NARRATOR: Now, finding a whole album of them in a thrift store in Europe -- that takes it to a completely different level.

LYS: So it's all the optimism, and world travel, and scenes of beauty that we photograph -- and, you know, with a few overturned tanks thrown in.

NARRATOR: We'll talk about the rewards and frustrations of writing a song about just such a photo album, and other things, too, in today's episode of 'Tell Me About Your Song'.

[EXCERPT FROM 'TURN THE PAGE' PLAYS:]

... but the memories have faded ...

JAKE: Hello, and welcome to Tell Me About Your Song, the podcast where I talk to musicians and songwriters about a song they've written. Today's guest is Lys Guillorn, and the song she'll be talking about is named "Turn The Page". So, where would you like to start with this song, Lys?

LYS: I'm a photographic print maker by day, and my colleague and boss was in Paris, and found a photo album, a really interesting old photo album, in a junk shop or antique store. And she was inspired to create an exhibition of artists who responded to images in the album in different ways. And I'm a visual artist, and also a musician, so I decided to respond with a song, instead of a photo, or a visual art piece -- so I had the song playing in a, what looked like an old record player. When you open up the album you're hit with this very striking picture of a young man, and his eyes are looking right at you, and I thought: "OK, this is going to be the thing I write the song about." That photo that's on my Bandcamp page is one of four, so it was four up on a page, and he was looking in different directions. And, along with the art piece, I made a lenticular download card, so he's sort of looking at the camera, and then he's looking down when you tilt it -- you know, those things that you used to get in cereal boxes, with baseball players on them, and stuff. The gaze of his eyes is so direct. There's just a haunting beauty to his face that I found really compelling, and then, over the course of the album, seeing him age through the photos, along with these other characters -- there's an inherent tragedy in looking at someone else's photo album, because, I don't know the story, and I could flip the page and, suddenly, everyone's old, and then you go, "Oh my God! Time has passed, and these people are all gone." Whereas when we make our own photo albums, they might take time, and we're experiencing things, and there isn't this instant time travel.

[EXCERPT FROM 'TURN THE PAGE' PLAYS:]

When you see my face, you will not know my name. When you see my face...

LYS: It's sort of breaking the fourth wall: He's speaking to the unknown viewer of the unknown album across time and space. But, you know -- I say in another song, "You're not the ghost. I'm the ghost." So, in some way, a lot of my work has to do with memento mori -- remember, we are all going to be there, too. And, um -- Yeah, it's not meant to be sad. It's just another way to turn the page on a story. And I was contemplating what this family's life must have been like. It was probably from between the first and second world wars. They were probably French or Spanish. And my imagination just started running what their life would be like.

[EXCERPT FROM 'TURN THE PAGE' PLAYS:]

In your hands, I have emigrated. The picture's clear but the memories have faded-- how I lived not how I died; when I laughed, not how I cried.

LYS: The album emigrated with Cathy Vanaria, my friend and boss, and just the idea that all of these interesting people lived, and we've got evidence of parts of their life, but we have no idea what their lives were actually like. He's already dead, and he's saying, "When you see my face, you'll not know my name," because we know nothing about these people -- I'm just making up a story, and projecting my own ideas onto them of what their life might have been like. And I used Bandcamp to make the song --

JAKE: Garage Band?

LYS: Yeah. Instead of using Logic, or Pro Tools, I used what was already on my Mac, and played all the instruments myself, and built the whole thing up from scratch, using a click track as my background. So there are no drums on it. It's just me, and Rhodes organ, acoustic 12-string, electric, and vocals. It wasn't intended to be performed. It was intended to go along with this art piece. And I have it up because some people, I thought, might find it interesting. And I just let my imagination go wherever it wanted to -- my musical imagination -- to go along with the different sections, and if I felt like changing the tone, I had the freedom to, because there was nothing holding me back. It didn't have to fit in anywhere with my other songs, really, because it's kind of left field, and I do some stuff I wouldn't normally do in a recording I would put out.

JAKE: Like what?

LYS: I think just the stylistic shifts.

[EXCERPT FROM 'TURN THE PAGE' PLAYS:]

With Marguerite at the gate; the dog and the lemonade. The empty squares, the monuments; the marches and the parades.

JAKE: It's told by the person whose photograph opened the album, right? And then --

LYS: Yeah.

JAKE: He's sort of talking about other photographs that are in the album?

LYS: Yeah. I made up another character named Marguerite. We don't know what the protagonist's name is. I never gave him a name. But there's a great little terrier dog in one of the photos, so: Marguerite, and the dog, and the lemonade -- and there are lots of, lots of photos of World War I sites. There are overturned tanks. There are monuments. There are world travels. And I just imagined that they must have lost somebody in World War One. It was statistically unlikely that they wouldn't have. So I inserted a dead uncle into the song. So that's my personal touch, imagining they laid a wreath on my grandfather's brother's grave, so I inserted him into their story. There are just some haunting lines that I say. The line about Frankie's grave is just sort of floating in space.

[EXCERPT FROM 'TURN THE PAGE' PLAYS:]

We laid a wreath on Frankie's grave. He was in the Somme when I no longer lived at home. He was so damn young.

LYS: So when I was creating the lyrics and the melody, the arrangement was already suggested to me. So, in a way, I did create the sections, and the different feel, to go with the lyrics. But it wasn't something I mapped out intellectually. It was organic, and I did it by feel, and not by planning. There was a little bit of tinkering, and moving stuff around, but not much. But I remember having the lyrics written now on three notebook pieces of paper that I taped together, and it was like more like a score than I would normally have, when I finally decided to record it, and get it all together. But it was useful to me, in a way, because now -- I find myself now -- this was two years ago that I wrote this -- but now I'm writing a song that does also have some different parts in it, and I think I might use a similar approach, and I plan on playing it out.

JAKE: So you have, like, this album full of photos --

LYS: Mm-hm.

JAKE: -- that kind of give you, in a way, the breath of this person's life, but then you also talk in the song about things that are left out.

LYS: Yeah. Because you don't really take pictures of sad things, or -- I mean, in a way, the tour of the World War I battlefields was sad, and they definitely wanted to remember that -- but there are just everyday tragedies, and normal things, that are left out of a photo album. These folks traveled quite a bit, but they didn't -- There were no kids in this album.

[EXCERPT FROM 'TURN THE PAGE' PLAYS:]

With sisters sentimental, brothers fond... but none of us had children that we could hang our lives on.

LYS: One of the things that struck me about it was, there are no children anywhere in the album, which I thought might be part of the reason the album would end up in a junk shop -- That's part of the mystery is, like, how did, how did this dude and his family get abandoned in a junk shop? And, um, then there's this point I reached, where I was like, "I'm writing -- I'm writing a story about another dead white guy." So -- I don't know, he could have been an oppressor. I don't know what his story was, so I work that in a little bit: That he might have, he might have hurt one of my ancestors, or any -- any one of us, in some way. And even over the course of your normal life, you just -- you just hurt people. Because he certainly is gone long enough that he couldn't have affected me directly, but in the scheme of European politics, a lot of bad stuff happened, so -- and that's part of what we don't photograph really.

[EXCERPT FROM 'TURN THE PAGE' PLAYS:]

Look at me, what do you see? I could be one of your great-great grandparents. Or maybe you don't like my face, I might've hurt someone who hurt someone you love.

JAKE: Talk about how the song ends.

LYS: He's almost consoling the listener, saying that it's part of life to get rid of things and be gone. So he's speaking almost as a ghost at the end. But also, you know, if you don't like the story -- if you don't like your idea of what his story is -- you can turn the page on the album, or turn the page on your idea of what his life is, and come up with another story.

[EXCERPT FROM 'TURN THE PAGE' PLAYS:]

If you don't like what you see, change the details of my history.

LYS: How does it feel to be lost? In a way, that's me talking to him.

[EXCERPT FROM 'TURN THE PAGE' PLAYS:]

How does it feel to be lost? I'm not lost, the losing's for you, if you think about it. How does it feel to be lost?

JAKE: I was just sort of thinking about photo albums. Like, nowadays, you know, in the 2010s, people just take pictures all the time.

LYS: I think about it a lot, because I work with photographs all the time. Is what happened to us, in creating this project, going to be something that will be extinct in the future, if people don't make physical photo albums? (a) We'll lose tons of history, if it's just digital and goes away. There will be a giant chunk of history unviewable to strangers. Either that, or we're going to have these gigantic digital memorials to people, where you'll be able to look at Great Grandma's hard drive, or something. It's funny to say something like that, but it's going to be a real concern: What happens to your digital life? You can't just flip through a pile of photos in an antique store or to find my digital Facebook photos. I don't know how that's all going to work. So print your photos, people, because you want to leave something. [laughs] Something for the songwriters of their future to work off of.

JAKE: Yeah, right!

LYS: That's my PSA for the future songwriters of America: Leave something behind for us. [laughter]

JAKE: So I originally wrote to you, like, a while ago -- I don't know, over a year ago, I think.

LYS: Yes, yes.

JAKE: And we went back and forth a little, and then both of us kind of dropped the ball for a while.

LYS: Right. Right. I didn't think I could talk for 20 minutes or longer about one song, and the prospect of doing that with one of the more personal songs -- I was, like, "I don't want to give away all my secrets."

JAKE: Yeah.

LYS: So I'd rather have those songs speak for themselves, and I feel happier talking about something less like me. So it's one of my more narrative songs. I don't usually write songs that are narrative. And it's not even strictly -- it's not a story song, certainly, but it tells a little bit about the way the album got here, and what my imagination did with it, and, um, it's probably my least personal song which is why I feel very comfortable talking about it.

JAKE: Great. (laughter) So, if people want to hear more of your music, what should they do?

LYS: They can go to LysGuillorn.com, which is [spells it]. Or, much easier, littlecowgirl.com just redirects right there. And I've got pretty much everything I've recorded up on bandcamp, so it's lysguillorn.bandcamp.com. The page I had up for my art isn't up right now, and I am in between art web sites, so it's a little harder to see -- but I do have some stuff up on Facebook, under Little Cowgirl Records & Handmade.

JAKE: All right, so people can check it out there, and I'll put links to all these things in the show notes and whatnot.

LYS: Cool.

JAKE: If people are interested in my own music, it's at music.jwgh.org, and I think I'm going to put together a website at jacobhaller.com, with all my various projects. And I've put together a Web site for this podcast at tellmeaboutyoursong.com, and, as I mentioned, I always put together a little blog post with links to everything we've been talking about, and people can find that at yoursongpodcast.tumblr.com [spells it]. So, with all that said, we're going to go out by listening to the song we've been talking about: Lys Guillorn's song "Turn The Page". Thanks for listening.

LYS: Thank you.

['TURN THE PAGE' PLAYS. LYRICS CAN BE FOUND ON LYS'S BANDCAMP PAGE -- CLICK HERE TO READ THEM.]

JAKE: Did you get any particular reaction that you noticed when you did it live? I know that doing it in a coffeehouse is, uh, can be a little --

LYS: No. No. Yeah, no, not really. [laughs]

JAKE: Fair enough.

LYS: Just the espresso machine going [imitates espresso machine]

JAKE: Oh yeah!

LYS: Just, like. [laughter]

[yoursongpodcast]

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This bonus episode of 'Tell Me About Your Song' has outtakes from my interview with Adam Hogue and Jason Dolbec of the Adjuncts, in which Adam, Jason, and me talk about assembling set lists, share stories about memorable performances, and talk about how we conceptualize songs at the beginning of the songwriting process. It's pretty goofy.  I swear a lot toward the end.

This episode includes clips of the following songs:

'So Youthful', a song by Jason's band, the Stilts.

Yellow Hound (2014) by The STILTS

'Hogit Bogit', a song by Floyd the Barber, Jason and Adam's high school band.

The Fridge by Floyd the Barber

'CSSOAB', a song by Dürty Folk that taught Jake an important lesson. (Note - this song contains a lot of swearing.)

A few of Jake's songs:

Codependent

Circumstantial Evidence by Jacob Haller

Watching Killer Robots Eat Your Head

Mistaken Identity by Jacob Haller

You're The Tea In My Teacup

Mistaken Identity by Jacob Haller

Stale Tequila

Circumstantial Evidence by Jacob Haller

I recommend checking out Adam and Jason/The Adjuncts's previous episode on the podcast, in which they talk about their song 2YRS.

The 'Tell Me About Your Song' icon was designed by Shaenon K. Garrity.

'Tell Me About Your Song' on iTunes - rate and review us!

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'Tell Me About Your Song' on Facebook

Episode Transcript:

NARRATOR: Hi. This is Jacob Haller, the host of Tell Me About Your Song, recording on a beautiful summer day in my apartment, so you might hear some background noise. In a recent episode, I talked to Adam Hoeg and Jason Dolbec of the Adjuncts about one of their songs, and the actual original conversation was kind of freewheeling, and wide-ranging, and we talked about some things that weren't really directly relevant to the song; and, in fact, Adam had some questions for me about some of my songs, and I thought that some of you might find some of that stuff interesting, so I thought I would package it up and put it out as a bonus episode. So there's a few different sections of the interview that I'm going to include. In this first one, we basically talk about the experience of being in a band, and figuring out how you get together a set of songs. Enjoy!

JASON: We practice every Monday, and he'll have about two or three new songs each time, and he'll want to play them and kind of push aside the old ones.

ADAM: Yeah. [inaudible]

JASON: So, I always have to say: That's not how bands really work. You usually play, like, an album for a long time, and then you introduce songs slowly. But I feel like, when people come to see us, they're going to get new stuff, always. [laughs] Every show it will be something new.

Jake: In my first band, kind of, as an adult, it was just me and one other guy, and we mostly did covers of, you know, or folks songs, or whatever.

Jason: Big Road Blues?

JAKE: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So over, like, a few years, we accumulated 150 songs. Like, there were 150 songs we could play. We didn't have them all memorized, but, you know, we could do them. And then, at some point, we decided to make the band electric, and so we found a drummer and a base player, and I went into it with the same idea, that, like, in each practice we learn two new songs and we just keep going at that until, you know, we know 300 songs. [laughter] After, I think, three for four rehearsals, Chris -- the other guy who has been playing with me -- sort of took my aside and was like, "Let me explain to you how bands usually work. [laughter] You learn a bunch of songs and then you basically stop practicing for a while and you just play out." And I was like, "Oh, you just don't -- Huh. Interesting." It just had never occurred to me. Um. Well, I don't know what the purpose of that story was but... Uh, so ...

JASON: Well, it has to do with what I was saying to him, like, you know. [laughs]

ADAM: We got it. Hey, we got it. [laughter]

JAKE: Okay good. Message received.

ADAM: Message received.

JASON: It was more fun that way, learning new songs, and ...

JAKE: Yeah I mean it's... I guess you could just perfect a small group of songs, if you really want to.

ADAM: And, actually, tying it back into the one song ... [fades out]

NARRATER: In this next part of the discussion, Adam asked me about performing my song 'Watching Killer Robots Eat Your Head', and it got me to reminiscing about memorable performances of various songs I've written.

ADAM: Question for you, the host: What's your most memorable moment of playing 'Killer Robots Eat Your Head'?

JAKE: Oh, well, okay. Yes. Good question. [laughter]

ADAM: Because that song's my favorite.

JAKE: OK. So I was asked to guest host an open mic, I forget where exactly, but between here and Boston in Massachusetts someplace, at a, I think it was a Mexican place/bar. And, you know, it was basically a bunch of people playing Johnny Cash songs -- which, I think from my set, up at, uh -- you know, I'm not opposed to that, you are aware. But, uh --

ADAM: You give the people what they want.

JAKE: Yeah, when you've learned 150 songs [laughter] -- Like, oh, yeah, I know two Johnny Cash songs. So I was at this place and I -- one of the songs I did was a song I wrote called "Codependent", which I forget if you've heard that one or not, but it's this country song sort of thing.

ADAM: Yeah, I think I remember it.

[EXCERPT FROM 'CODEPENDENT' PLAYS:]

Now, some folks might call us codependent, And say our reuniting's insane; But things ain't the same without you, my dear -- Please come back and make me miserable again.

JAKE: So after I did that song, this guy was at the bar, fairly drunk, and he says to me. "I have a joke for you." I say "okay." He says, "This guy and his friend are sitting at the bar, and he says to his friend, 'You know, my wife hasn't talked to me in a week,' and his friend says, 'Well what are you bragging about?'" [Laughter] So he may have, uh, identified with that song a little much. [laughter] But I was playing at this other place -- now that I think of it, this is at a completely different location, and has nothing to do with that last story, but -- I, I -- it was down in Narragansett, I think, I was playing in a bar, an open mic, and I did Killer Robots ...

[EXCERPT FROM 'WATCHING KILLER ROBOTS EAT YOUR HEAD' PLAYS:]

I was on I-95 just the other day, And I guess I was one of the people who was in your way. And you cut right in front of me without any sign; But I guess you're in a hurry, and, buddy, that's just fine. But now that I'm home and I've gone to bed, I have a strange vision running all through my head: I'm watching killer robots eat your head, ...

JAKE: ... and then, afterwards, this guy is like, "Hey, I really liked that song about the robots," "Oh, thanks, I appreciate that!" He's like, "I can just picture the robot smashing her head," and I was like, "I -- you may have gotten some things out of that song that I did not put there." [laughter] But, uh -- well, I'll tell -- yeah, let me tell you about my song. [laughter] So the other one was -- I played -- and this was also in Narragansett, but it was at a much sort of fancier thing -- it was in, I forget what it's called, but, you know, like if you drive down to Narragansett, there's like this big arch, and there's a building over it, and it's sort of right on the sea, and the Rhode Island Songwriter Association had booked the place.

ADAM: Nice.

JAKE: And I was one of the performers, and, so, there were, like, I forget, there might have been like eight of us, but maybe -- that seems like a lot, maybe it was more like six. But we're playing in the round. So there's just this row of songwriters. I was the first one to play in each round. So, you know, I play a song, everyone else plays a song, and it just goes down until we've done four or five songs each, probably. So the first song I did was a song called, 'I'm The' -- uh, 'You're the Tea in my Teacup.' And the way that that song goes is that the first verse -- it seems fairly innocent. Like, "You're the tea in my teacup. / You're the beer in my glass. / You're the whiskey in my coffee," and then the second verse goes:

[EXCERPT FROM 'YOU'RE THE TEA IN MY TEACUP' PLAYS:]

You're the heroin in my needle. You're the cocaine on my spoon.

JAKE: And so I did that song, and that was, like, the opener, and I like doing -- you know, I have a couple songs that have big twists in them, and I like doing those first in a set, because then, if no one's heard it before, it's just -- it's more likely to catch them completely off guard. So, I did that, and it really did catch everyone completely off guard. And, afterwards, you could just kind of feel the audience going, like, "Who is this guy? [laughter] What is his deal?" So, then it goes down the row, and everyone else does their songs. Then it gets back to me, and I did 'Killer Robots'. [laughter] And then, after that one, people again are, like, "... That wasn't really reassuring." [laughter] We go down the row, and then the third one, I forget, you know, but I did one of my conventionally amusing songs, and then people were, like, "OK, I think I get what this guy is doing."

NARRATOR: OK, so, in this next segment, Adam asked Jason and me about, um, you know, when we're starting to write a song, how we think about it. And this is going to be the last segment of the original interview that I'm going to include in this bonus episode, and it's also by far the sweariest. Like, I'm not kidding -- I swear more in this than, probably, in any other episode, or in all the other episodes of this podcast combined. So, if you're in a room with kids, or you don't like hearing that kind of language, I might stop here. OK. Let's get to it.

ADAM: I guess, if I'm thinking about your band, The Stilts ...

[EXCERPT OF 'SO YOUTHFUL' BY THE STILTS PLAYS:]

So youthful, so youthful. (x2)

ADAM: Like, I guess, I'm curious -- I would be curious with Jim, too -- when you're writing a song -- and you, too, you can join in -- what's the first thing that you usually do? Like, for me, it's very much like, I'll put together a chordal structure, rhythm, or something, or have something that I like, and then fit words to it. What about you with The Stilts? Do you usually approach it with lyrics, or do you -- a lick? I know that, like, in high school, you were very lick-heavy ...

JASON: Yeah. Lot of riffs.

ADAM: ... like you're a riff guy, and, like, we'd have a riff, and we make, you know, a ten minute song from, like, a riff. We have a really good album called "The Fridge", by our high school band, Floyd the Barber. It's available on Bandcamp...

JASON: Oh, yeah, that's right, you put it on there.

ADAM: ... for free.

[BEGINNING OF 'HOGIT BOGIT' BY FLOYD THE BARBER PLAYS]

ADAM: It's all, almost one hundred percent improvised.

JASON: Yeah. As you know -- you know me -- as you would say, I'm always noodling. Most of the time, that kind of goes nowhere, but, eventually, sometimes I get something, and I latch onto it, and then I usually sit with it for a while, and then add lyrics. But it's pretty natural. There's not like a... It usually kind of happens, you know, at the same time, where I'm not-- It kind of comes through me, for lack of better terms, where it's, like, I -- I usually don't have to try too hard to think about it, and, if I do, I usually don't end up liking that song as much. That's why there's a lot of rhyming, because rhyming -- it's just easy to get the flow out there. But, yeah, mostly play first, then lyrics. Sometimes, just the same, same time. But I find that lyrics don't really come to me when I'm playing the drums now. But how about you?

JAKE: I mean, I think for me it's pretty much always, like, a concept first. You know, like -- like, that Codependent song that I was talking about. Like, the idea was, there, I wanted to write a country song where, kind of, the idea of it was that the singer has broken up with this woman -- or, who knows, genders are not specified in the song, I don't think -- and his life has gotten, like, a hundred percent better, but he can't stand it. He wants her back. So that's, like, the concept of that song, and then it all kind of flowed from that. Um, 'Stale Tequila' -- which is, everyone says, "Do the song about the stolen kidney," I'm, like, "You just gave it away."

[EXCERPT FROM 'STALE TEQUILA' PLAYS:]

Then I awoke in a bathtub full of ice. You left a note, I had to read it twice: It said, "Call 911. I stole your kidney. Thanks for the fun." I felt myself start to fall apart. I know you took my kidney but you also stole my heart. And I woke up...

JAKE: That was one where the theme was assigned -- like, Stale Tequila was -- I had to write a song about stale tequila ...

ADAM: I remember you saying that was for one of those songwriters' circle, right?

JAKE: Right. Yeah. But the idea I got was, you know, that -- it's that old urban legend about the guy whose kidney get stolen, and then -- I'm a little bit addicted to putting twist into songs, as you may have noticed, but kind of the twist there --

ADAM: You're kind of like the M. Night Shyamalan of --

JAKE: Yes. Exactly. Yeah. Yep. My first song was the best one, and, after that, they've gotten successively more disappointing.

ADAM: But what a twist!

JAKE: Oh, man.

ADAM: What a twist in that first song.

JAKE: Yup. But the last movie, the last song in my career will be so great, it will be its own little twist ending. It'll all ... So -- so then the idea there is, you know, that happens, you know, but he's still in love with, you know, he -- Yeah, there's a lot of that going on in my songs, now that I think about it. And then, Killer Robots -- Actually, Killer Robots originally had a kind of a different concept. I mean, I wrote the -- I wrote an entire song, and then I had to throw away most of it, except for the chorus, because originally it was, like, a song, it was between, you know, two lovers, I guess, but it was just so creepy -- just, there's no way! There's just nothing! There's just no way! It was not enjoyable to play or to listen to! And so, I was, like, OK, well, we'll get rid of that stuff, and let's, um -- and then it was just, like, sort of thinking about situations -- because, in the original song, the idea was that he was, like, trying to figure out, like, "Why do I keep having these weird visions, when ..." -- So creepy. No. Bad. [laughter] And so then I was, like, OK, well, where are just some situations where you would probably have that kind of vision, and that was a little easier to come up with something.

ADAM: Yeah, the road rage, road rage scenario.

JAKE: Right, road rage, and then meetings -- Everyone's have been in one of those meetings. Or, not, you know -- a lot of people have. A lot of teachers find that song very relatable, I have found.

ADAM: Yeah.

JAKE: And then -- yeah. So, anyway. So the concept tends to come first, and then the lyrics, and then I usually set it to music last.

ADAM: Oh! That's interesting.

JAKE: Like I often kind of have a tune in mind when I'm writing it, but then I am often concerned that I've accidentally stolen the melody, or whatever, from someplace else, and it's not original at all, and then I have to, like, screw things around, change the chords around or something, so that I'm like: OK, well this time I've completely screwed everything up, so I'm pretty sure that this is original. But, you know, my guitar playing -- I used to say wasn't very good, and then people would yell at me. But it's kind of rudimentary in some ways. Like, it's -- there's kind of one rhythm to it that I tend to go back to, and --

JASON: It serves -- you serve the lyrics first, I think. So it works perfect with you know the songs that you're writing.

JAKE: Yeah. But the rhyming thing -- I mean, my songs always used to rhyme, and they still mostly do, but at some point a friend of mine wrote basically the only -- she wrote one song, and then stopped, and it was, like, the greatest song in the world. Let's see [playing guitar].

JASON: That little Martin is always in tune.

JAKE: So, it was after she was dumped by this guy, and the song goes:

[PLAYS EXCERPT OF THE DÜRTY FOLK SONG 'CSSOAB':]

You're a cock-sucking son of a bitch. A cock-sucking son of a bitch.

JAKE: Um. [laughter] And the verses are, let's see, "You threw your bags" -- no, let's see.

[PLAYS EXCERPT OF THE DÜRTY FOLK SONG 'CSSOAB':]

You threw your bags into the back of your Focus, You cock-sucking son of a bitch. You drove out west to Oregon, [spoken:] to live with your mother, You a cock-sucking son of a bitch.

JAKE: And I love this song, as you can tell, and then, only after I listened to it a bunch of times, I realized that none of it -- none of the lines rhyme. Like, there were just no rhymes in whatsoever. I was like, "Oh, it turns out that a really great song does not actually have to rhyme." And so --

ADAM: Yeah that's true.

JAKE: So after that I stopped worrying -- like, I still normally try to rhyme most of the time, but every once in a while, I was like it just works better ...

ADAM: If -- If you have, like, the vocal -- if the vocal melody is there like that, even just that, that kind of like, um. With the chords and what you're singing, it doesn't -- Yeah, it doesn't have to rhyme. It just flows into each line anyway.

JAKE: And, I mean, talking about concept based songs, like, the concept in that song is so strong --

ADAM: Yes.

JAKE: -- and something that everyone has thought, at one time or another --

ADAM: Yes.

JAKE: But, like, the chorus to 'Stale Tequila' used to be twice as long, and it used rhyme. And then at some point I was, like, the chorus is not what this song is about, and you're just -- All the time that you're listening to it you're just, like, "Why am I listening to this part of the song?", you know, which is -- the chorus is, like:

[SINGS EXCERPT FROM 'STALE TEQUILA':]

Then I woke up, The taste of stale tequila in my mouth. I looked around, I was all alone. How could you do it? You were so beautiful.

JAKE: You know, like, that doesn't have to be twice as long just so that it can rhyme.

ADAM: Yeah, right.

JAKE: So.

ADAM: Yeah! That's a great song.

[THERE IS A LONG PAUSE.]

JAKE: Well. Great podcast guys. [laughter]

NARRATOR: OK, so that's that. I should say that that, uh, 'Cock-Sucking Son Of A Bitch' song was actually co-written by two of my friends, and that you can find them on MySpace as 'Dürty Folk'. [spells the name] I'll also link to it in the show notes, et cetera. Um, but that's about it. That's the end of this bonus episode. Thanks again to Adam and Jason of the Adjuncts for talking to me, and thanks for listening, and I guess I'll put one of my songs at the end of this -- one of the songs we talked about -- 'You're The Tea In My Teacup,' so, enjoy that, and I'll be back with a non-bonus episode soon. Bye!

['YOU'RE THE TEA IN MY TEACUP' PLAYS:]

You're the tea in my teacup. You're the beer in my glass. You're the whiskey in my coffee. I know that we're gonna last. I know we're sure gonna last. CHORUS: And I can't live without you, baby. You just smooth all my troubles away. You've become quite a habit to me -- I want you more each and every day. You're the heroin in my needle. You're the cocaine in my spoon. You make me so high I feel like I could fly. You've got me howling at the moon. You've got me howling at the moon. [CHORUS] You're the rock in my crack pipe. You're the monkey on my back. You know how much I need you, so please won't you take me back? Lord, please won't you take me back? CHORUS: 'Cause I can't live without you, baby. You just smooth all my troubles away. You've become quite a habit to me -- I want you more each and every day. I need you more each and every day.

[yoursongpodcast]

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For 'Tell Me About Your Song' #70, Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers discussed his song 'Sycamore Tree', which can be found on his album 'Stop, Drop, and Roll'.

Stop, Drop, and Roll by Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers

In the course of our discussion, we touched on the following topics:

Sycamore trees

Acoustic Guitar Magazine

All Things Considered

Tabla

Cajón

Shel Silverstein's 'The Giving Tree'

Lemonade stands

Jeffrey's book, 'The Complete Singer-Songwriter'

Drummer Josh Dekaney

For more about Jeffrey's music and other projects, check out his website and facebook page. You can get his music on Bandcamp or iTunes, and some videos of him performing can be found on YouTube. He's also written a book, 'The Complete Singer-Songwriter', which you can get from his website, or anywhere where books are sold.

The 'Tell Me About Your Song' icon was designed by Shaenon K. Garrity.

If you want more information about your host, Jacob Haller, then check out my web page, my facebook page, or my twitter account.

'Tell Me About Your Song' on iTunes - rate and review us!

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'Tell Me About Your Song' rss feed

'Tell Me About Your Song' on Facebook

Episode Transcript:

NARRATOR: When Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers started writing 'Sycamore Tree', it began very simply.

JEFFREY: I was sitting at a dining room table, and outside this house was this amazing sycamore tree, and so I started playing this rhythm, and it connected with the image of the sycamore tree, and I just started making up this little story.

NARRATOR: Sometimes, personal details find their way into a song without us even being aware of it.

JEFFREY: there's a line in there about "There's a red haired girl with a lemonade stand", and when we were living in that house, my daughter was young and has red hair.

NARRATOR: It's in ways like that that a simple, lighthearted song can come to be very meaningful, both to the writer and to other people, too. We'll be talking about that, and so much more, in today's episode of Tell Me About Your Song.

[EXCERPT FROM 'SYCAMORE TREE' PLAYS:]

On a soft and sunny afternoon My parents bring me home and soon They tie a bunch of blue balloons Right around the sycamore tree (x2)

JAKE: Hello, and welcome to Tell Me About Your Song, the podcast where I talk to musicians and songwriters about a song they've written. Today's guest is Jeffrey Pepper Rogers, and the song he'll be talking about is named "Sycamore Tree", and is from his album "Stop Drop and Roll". So where would you like to start with this song, Jeffrey?

JEFFREY: I was sitting at a dining room table -- this was during a brief period of time when I lived in Indiana -- and outside this house that I lived in was this amazing sycamore tree. So I started playing this rhythm, and it connected with the image of the sycamore tree, and I just started making up this little story. So, it's an interesting choice to pick a song to really dig into like this, and this one came to mind, because It's kind of an unusual song for me. I'm really a guitar player all my life, and have this background with Acoustic Guitar magazine, and surrounded by guitars all the time, but I also have this other side really loving drums and percussion, and I've written some songs over the years just starting with the drum part, and singing over it and building a song that way, and this is an example of a song that -- that started like that, and became one that's been really surprising and special song to me in a lot of ways. The furtherest I ever got into really studying drums is, I spent a good chunk of time in India over the years, and actually studied tabla -- North Indian drums -- starting out in California, when I used to live in the San Francisco area, and then I studied also in India, and for about five years I was playing tabla pretty seriously. But I've just always had this orientation toward percussion, and anybody who has ever lived with me probably has been driven crazy by the fact that I'm just forever playing some kind of a beat on whatever is nearby. I have these patterns going in my head, and I have kind of ways worked out to get a kick drum sound with the palm of my hand, and drumming with my fingers, and I do it when I'm driving -- I do it all the time. I just love different kinds of grooves, on the guitar as well. But I also have wound up playing cajón, and some other hand percussion instruments, sometimes on stage. Now I do it a little bit less, when I play with my own band, because I play with a fantastic drummer, who takes those parts.

[EXCERPT FROM 'SYCAMORE TREE' PLAYS:]

On a soft and sunny afternoon My parents bring me home and soon They tie a bunch of blue balloons Right around the sycamore tree (x2) The grass tickles on my feet When I'm rocking in my bouncy seat The summer breezes smell so sweet Blowing by the sycamore tree (x2)

JEFFREY: My kids were were young at the time, and I was pretty immersed in children's books, and also playing music with kids quite a bit -- I would go into the classroom, and sing with the kids, and so that was definitely affecting my writing at the time, and I didn't really think about this, honestly, until later, but I'm sure there was some element of thinking about the Shel Silverstein book "The Giving Tree" that was somehow in in the back of my mind, when I started making up this this story about somebody growing up next to a sycamore tree, and kind of relating to the tree at different stages in life. Although it was very much, it was a story that I was making up, because this is a house I lived in a short time, and I didn't grow up next to a sycamore tree. But that was how the whole story started, and it actually, though, took a good while -- I think a couple years -- until it completely came together as a song.

[EXCERPT FROM 'SYCAMORE TREE' PLAYS:]

There's a red-haired girl with a lemonade stand I put three quarters in her hand So many footprints are on this land Remembered by the sycamore tree (x2) I sip the juice and the memories My little boy is on his knees Stuffing pockets full of fuzzy seeds ...

JEFFREY: There are little things that are just meaningful to me. There's a line in there about, "There's a red haired girl with a lemonade stand," and, when we were living in that house, my daughter was was young, and has red hair -- kind of strawberry blonde hair -- and she was, at that age, kind of obsessed with having lemonade stands, and so was always begging to do that, even though hardly anybody came down our street, and it never worked out very well for her, but -- So whenever I sing that line, for instance, you know, I'm kind of just brought right back to that bit of family history, but -- and there's some, I think, there's some other things like that, about things that my kids did. Some of the images about the boy picking up the seeds, and whatnot, are really drawn from observing my own son.

[EXCERPT FROM 'SYCAMORE TREE' PLAYS:]

I move to the city, and then in time My parents long for more sunshine I hate to see that "For Sale" sign On the corner by the sycamore tree

JEFFREY: My parents lived in the same house since before I was born, up until, you know, they lived in a house, the house, for forty years, and they were getting ready to sell the house and move, and -- which is something that it was very -- I had a really hard time with at the time, and you know it was -- just because I wanted to have that experience of still being able to go back to this house that I grew up in. So I guess, without really realizing it, I was writing something that was much more personal than I intended. It felt like I was making it up, but I think that this is something that happens in writing sometimes, is, is, you can let your guard down a little bit when you're writing something that you think is not about you, and then it turns out to be really more about you than, than you realized. So there's a lot of biographical kinds of things that work their way into the song, and part of it, too, is, where I was living at the time in Indiana, was in a town where most people had grown up there. They had huge number numbers of family members around. I had moved around -- I had grown up on the East Coast, lived in California long time, moved around. I sort of felt a little rootless, and so, I was really thinking about a lot of those things, and they kind of made their way into that song in some way. But not according to any plan that I had -- it just kind of came that way by -- by developing this story.

JAKE: Have you gone back and looked at the house since it's been sold.

JEFFREY: I have mostly stayed away ...

JAKE: Yeah.

JEFFREY: ... and the main reason for that, is that the people who bought it changed it so dramatically. [laughs] They practically tore the whole thing down and started over, and that was just -- that was wrenching for me. I couldn't -- It's made me not want to, kind of, go and look at it in the same way, and -- So not so much.

JAKE: Yeah.

JEFFREY: So I have it -- I have this more perfect kind of vision of it in my mind, that in some ways I don't want to -- I don't want to tamper with it, by seeing what it really looks like now, which is just different.

[EXCERPT FROM 'SYCAMORE TREE' PLAYS:]

Sycamore sycamore sycamore tree, Forever in my memory Did someone plant you there for me Sycamore sycamore tree? (x2)

JEFFREY: When I first started writing, because it wasn't my story, I just naturally started writing it in third person, kind of like I was making up a short story, and I created all these little images of a child with a tree, and and growing up, and changing and -- that was kind of as far as it went, and eventually -- actually, after I had moved away from that house, and was living in Syracuse, New York area, where I am now -- that I shared this for, in a songwriting group, and a friend of mine suggested kind of carrying this story forward a little bit more, and felt like it was incomplete. And so I worked on it more, and, eventually, I did something -- and this is in a forgotten, now, draft of the song -- but where I wound up switching from third person to first person for this final section of the song, which was coming back as an adult to visit the tree, to visit the place where this boy had grown up, and somewhere along the line I recognized that, if I just adopted first person from the beginning, that the whole thing just, just came into focus in a whole different way, and it wasn't my first thought, or my first instinct, because it wasn't my story, and I guess I'm not as inclined to write first person stories that are fiction.

JAKE: Mm-hm.

JEFFREY: But, when I did that, the song just really all came together, and then it completely became a full circle kind of a story, where the narrator comes back to the tree with his own kids, and then it just became a much more satisfying story. But as you say, yes, it's a much more -- It doesn't end is as sadly as "The Giving Tree" does, with that poor stump and everything. It's a different -- it's a different kind of a -- a different kind of a story, for sure.

[EXCERPT FROM 'SYCAMORE TREE' PLAYS:]

Each seed is a promise that if you try If your roots dig deep And your trunk stands high Your leaves will stretch and taste the sky Growing like a sycamore tree (x3) Like a Sycamore sycamore sycamore tree (x5)

[SONG ENDS.]

JAKE: The song ends with kind of a moral.

JEFFREY: Yeah. I don't -- I think I was just kind of aware of the, the story -- you know, I teach writing, creative nonfiction writing, and songwriting classes, and I'm always talking about -- I'm a real believer in, rather than making a grand design for what you're writing, to sort of follow the energy and direction of the story as it's unfolding, and then, often, you can get to places that surprise yourself. So I guess it just some -- somehow pointed in that direction at the end, and I gotta say, that last -- that last part, when I sing that, I still feel a little choked up when I sing that. I don't know what that is. I can't explain it. But there is just something very emotional about the whole thing. I actually had a fan of my music once bring me a, a little cutting of sycamore that she had gotten from a farmer's market or something, that I actually have in my kitchen. A lot of people just responded in a very personal way to this, I think. Because, you know, people have very similar, probably, experiences with places that they grew up in, and loved, and connected with, and moved from, and, you know, want to reconnect with, and that kind of thing. Kind of universal experiences, I think. I learned a lot about writing through this song. Especially on this whole point of, when you're writing, are you writing your own life, or are you making up a story?

JAKE: Mm-hm.

JEFFREY: I've come to come to believe -- and we haven't really talked about this, but, you know, I spend a lot of my life interviewing artists for Acoustic Guitar Magazine, and sometimes for N.P.R., for All Things Considered, and I've heard this from a lot of great songwriters at this point, about how it really doesn't matter, in the end, whether it's your own autobiography, whether it's something you made up, whether it's a story you heard from somebody else. You know, a lot of songs are really a mixture of all those things, and, you know, the bottom line is just whether it's a good story, whether it's a story that people can relate to, whether they can kind of bring their own experiences into it.

JAKE: Have you ever performed the song solo?

JEFFREY: Yeah. Sometimes with a cajón -- you know, one of those wooden boxes that you sit on, and -- and I put a tambourine over my foot, and -- actually just did that recently at a show, and it's really fun to do that way. I also -- and when I've been away from home touring, and didn't have a cajón with me, I actually have performed this on a table, I've played an accordion case, I've played a guitar case --- just use brushes or, you know -- and it's one of the really fun things about this the song, is kind of -- just look around for something relatively resonant to just hit with my hands, and can just do the song that way. And I love doing it like that. This song really came to life in a whole different way when I started playing with this guy, Josh Dekaney, who is on the recording with me, and he just kind of took my -- all the songs that have these strong kind of percussive elements, and just brought them to a whole different level. He has this, this amazing percussion/drum hybrid kit that he plays that includes cajón and includes into this thing he calls the "bucket snare," which is a, which is a metal bucket with these loose bolts in it, and he put this skin on top of it, and that is -- sort of functions as his snare drum. It just took off in a whole different way, and so on, on the -- what you hear on the recording is just really me and him doing this with guitar and drums and vocal, and then my friend sang, Tim Burr sang harmony, and I added a bass part after, but other than that it was all just straight live, just the two of us. That whole CD is really, was almost all just done kind of live in the studio, guitar and percussion, which is a way that's really, really fun to do. So, now, it's -- it can be a solo song, it can be a duo song, full band with bass and everything. I, in general, just love that about songs, how they can kind of have these different incarnations, depending on who I'm playing with. It's got multiple lives.

[EXCERPT FROM 'SYCAMORE TREE' PLAYS, GOES INTO A DRUM SOLO; INSTRUMENTAL SECTION CONTINUES UNDER THE FOLLOWING]

JEFFREY: There's a short drum solo, and a little bit of guitar solo, on the recording of it. But when we do it live, we can get very carried away in that whole part of it, with the drum solo, and then, you know, extended jams and, you know -- I love, love that kind of open ended jamming, when, suddenly, we can be playing a heavy metal beat, and then it can go into a swing thing, or, you know -- Josh is an incredible listening drummer, so whatever is hinted in what I'm doing, you know, he runs with it, and so we've had some real adventures.

[INSTRUMENTAL SECTION ENDS, SINGING RESTARTS:]

I'm a husband now and a father too ...

JAKE: So, if people would like to hear more of your music, what should they do?

JEFFREY: Go to my website, which is jeffreypepperrodgers.com. [spells it] Also find my music page on Facebook, which is also Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers. You know, the music is up on Bandcamp, and iTunes, and, you know, all those -- all those places. There's a few live videos of this that are up on YouTube, as well. But my web site is really the central place to find any of that.

JAKE: And you also mentioned your book. Is there a preferred way for people to get that?

JEFFREY: Yeah, my book, The Complete Singer-Songwriter, that I wrote, which just came out in its second edition. And I wrote a little bit about this song. If people want to get it directly through me, I have a store on my website, and happy to send those to people, and sign them, and do anything like that. But the book is. you know, again out on all the usual channels, and up on Amazon, and probably by the time this this airs it will be out in e-book versions on Amazon and iTunes -- You know, I've been writing songs since I was a teenager, and I've been writing about music, and working with Acoustic Guitar Magazine now, since 1990, so I really -- I put all -- all that experience into -- things that I've learned, things that amazing songwriters have told me, put -- all kind of fed into what became this book, The Complete Singer-Songwriter, so it's been really a satisfying book to to share with people.

JAKE: Hopefully people will check that out. If people want to hear my music, it's at music.jwgh.org, or maybe it's easier to just google my name, Jacob Haller. I also have a website for this series at tellmeaboutyoursong.com, and I'll put together show notes, with links to all of Jeffrey's websites, and things like that, and you can find that at yoursongpodcast.tumblr.com. So, with all that said, we're going to go out by listening to the entire song we've been talking about, 'Sycamore Tree' by Jeffrey Pepper Rodgers. Thanks for listening.

['SYCAMORE TREE' PLAYS. CLICK HERE TO SEE THE LYRICS, WHICH ARE ON JEFFREY'S WEBSITE.]

JAKE: You know, at the very end of the recording, there's a little spoken, you know, you talking with the recording engineer, or one of the other musicians, or something. I don't know if there's anything to say about that, or if you remember what I'm talking about, but --

JEFFREY: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Well. That was just a bit of real talk that happened, after that take was over, and our -- a guy named named Jocko Randall, who engineered, who recorded -- recorded us in the studio for this album, he slipped that on there when, unbeknownst to me, when we were kind of working on mixes, and he just thought it was cool to have it on there, and we just went with it -- liked, liked it as a as a little extra.

JAKE: Mm-hm.

JEFFREY: Extra moment.

[yoursongpodcast]

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For 'Tell Me About Your Song' #69, I talked to Adam Hogue and Jason Dolbec of the Adjuncts about their song '2YRS', which you can get from their Padded Seat EP.

Over the course of our discussion, we touched on the following topics:

Mount St. Charles Academy in Woonsocket, RI

Applebee's

Jake McKelvie (an excerpt from his song 'You've Got to Find it in the Dark' is featured in this episode)

Dave Grohl

Cheap pop filters

A couple of other Adjuncts songs: 'Didja' and 'Chemtrails'

You can hear the Adjuncts' music on Bandcamp and Soundcloud, and they also can be found on tumblr and pinterest.

Thanks to flamboyant222 of fiverr.com for transcribing the interview for me.

The 'Tell Me About Your Song' icon was designed by Shaenon K. Garrity.

If you want more information about your host, Jacob Haller, then check out my web page, my facebook page, or my twitter account.

'Tell Me About Your Song' on iTunes - rate and review us!

'Tell Me About Your Song' on stitcher - rate and review us!

'Tell Me About Your Song' rss feed

'Tell Me About Your Song' on Facebook

Episode Transcript

NARRATOR: Adam Hogue of the Adjuncts spent some time traveling after high school.

ADAM: I had lived out of the country for a couple of years in Korea and about two years ago we came back, and then we started playing music again. So, we started this thing called The Adjuncts.

[MUSIC STARTS PLAYING]

NARRATOR: What's it like to return to Rhode Island after traveling the world for a couple of years? That's one of the things we'll be talking about in today's episode of 'Tell Me About Your Song'.

[MUSIC CONTINUES.]

I left all of my memories / In a box over the sea ...

JAKE: Hello, and welcome to Tell Me About Your Song, the podcast where I talk to musicians and songwriters about a song they wrote. Today, I'm talking to The Adjuncts and the song they'll be talking about is named '2YRS' and versions of it are available on a number of albums on their Bandcamp page, which is TheAdjuncts.Bandcamp.com. So, introduce yourself, guys.

ADAM: My name is Adam Hogue and I play guitar and sing in The Adjuncts.

JASON: Hi, I'm Jason Dolbec and I play the drums.

JAKE: Okay, so where would you like to start with the song, guys?

ADAM: We've been playing in bands since like high school. We're both from Woonsocket; we grew up across the street from each other. So we go way back, we were in like a jam band in high school that I want to say was marginally famous but we weren't at all. [laughter]

JASON: At Mount St. Charles.

ADAM: At Mount St. Charles. At Woonsocket High we got third place in their battle of the bands one year.

JAKE: Oh hey. How many bands?

ADAM: There was a lot. We beat -- Well, the hip-hop guy did good.

JASON: Fifty dollars, I think we went to Applebee's.

ADAM: Yeah, fifty dollars, we went to Applebee's. So that gave us the taste of the, you know...

JAKE: Fame and fortune.

ADAM: The good life [laughter] So we did that and then I went to college and I had moved out of the country for a couple year, in Korea, and about two years ago I came back, and we started playing music again. So, we started this thing called The Adjuncts and just started writing songs kind of just together again, and Jay was playing drums and I was just playing guitar. And this one we brought because it's really the first song I feel like we wrote as a band with Jim after we brought Jim on as a bassist. Who's another Woonsocket guy that we knew for a long time.

JASON: Yeah, well when you came back I wanted to start playing drums and I thought it would be a good opportunity. There was always like a kit around maybe in a garage but nobody really knew how to play it. At that time though I decided to use it as an opportunity to teach myself the drums and it's challenging because he likes to write songs very fast.

JAKE: Mm-hm.

JASON: So as a new drummer just coming up...

Adam: I don't like to perfect a tune, just -- I find that I like to write things quick and to the point. Maybe part of it is because, like, I ... wait ... the idea of like a thesis you know get to the point kind of thing with songs, and like I just feel like a lot of songs, and rock songs, you know -- You do the three minutes, and you do your time with that, and the verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, chorus -- you don't need to. So a lot of our songs are like this ,where it's just like a linear kind of two minute thing, where it will be like a verse, a chorus-y thing, and then the end of it. That's it. So I like to just say what I need to say, have few lyrics -- because I'm not a very good lyricist. I just like to say what I have to say and...

JASON: I disagree.

ADAM: You disagree, thank you.

Jason: So, in the beginning, though, I didn't ever really know where it was going to go. I don't know if you're on the same page with that. It seemed kind of like...

Adam: Yeah, we were kind of...

Jason: It's fun and...

ADAM: ... fun. We were doing, like, a little bit more harder stuff, not really jam stuff anymore, more like songs with distortion, and it was just fun. It was fun playing music, and then we brought Jim in, and then we kind of came out with these, this little batch of songs. The ones that -- this one and that song "Didja" were sort of in that same boat, where we kind of wrote them together, and contributed parts, and so this one that we're really like all kind of in on that song writing process, and kind of put us in a sort of direction. I don't think we really have a direction, but that's sort of kind of I think what we shoot for in a song.

[EXCERPT FROM 2YRS PLAYS:]

Everybody knows, everybody knows, everybody knows how it ends (x2)

JAKE: I feel like the song has a few kinds of distinct sections. So, was it a situation where, like, different people kind of came up with the different sections, or did you more kind of collaborate on all of them?

ADAM: Yeah kind of like I had that beginning part, with the verse in the beginning, and then that kind of distorted part the [hums beat].

[MUSIC PLAYS, THE BEAT ADAM HUMMED SEGUES INTO A SOLO BASS SECTION]

ADAM: Jim came in with that bass solo as, like, something unrelated -- like, "Guys, check it out!", you know. He's tapping the base, like, with the thing, and we're like, "Oh, that's cool!" and kind of just, I think we just like worked it into the song. So that one sort of came out of just playing it and trying it out.

JASON: It mostly you guys upfront, I mean, writing everything. Adam usually brings it all, and then Jim will digest it, and he'll come back the next time and just, you know, have a total direction for it, and fifteen harmonies, and everything he wants to do with it.

ADAM: Definitely vocally he's the strongest guy in the band. He always is the one that will work out harmonies, or -- He has an ear for things that I don't necessarily have an ear for.

JAKE: Mm-hmm. We haven't really talked about the lyrics at all.

ADAM: A lot of times, like -- I think in the case of that song, I'll write something I like on guitar, and then mold lyrics to them. Like I'm not someone who just sits and writes out lyrics and is like, "OK, now how can I craft this into a song?" So, the lyrics pretty much came out of the rhythm of the song. So like that [hums beat again] made me want to have lyrics that had that very rhythmic kind of approach to them. So, a lot of times I'll sing, when I'm coming up with a song initially, I'll sing just words, sort of ad-lib them, and then kind of piece them together after that. So a lot of lyrics I write these days, I'm a very big fan of lyricists who can say something very real in a very witty way. Like, the first person that always comes to mind when I think of lyrics that I love is someone like -- there's a guy, Jake McKelvie. He's, like, a fairly local musician, but I love his lyrics, who has the ability to, like, just be able to say something that's like they would say and not try and be, like, overly poetic, or overly sentimental, or say things that should be in a song or used to be in a song. Like, talk about, like, hopping training or something like, "I'm getting the first train out town," like -- No one's taking a train out of town. You know what I mean?

[EXCERPT FROM JAKE MCKELVIE'S SONG 'YOU'VE GOT TO FIND IT IN THE DARK' PLAYS]

And it's not getting easier to go. It's a big do or die world. It's a lay down and cry world. And say, "What in the hell am I doing, and why?" world. And you have to leave much sooner than me.

ADAM: Long story short, a lot of the lyrics I've been writing just deal with the complex of aging, I guess, and where are you at this moment in your life? Is it where you should -- a lot of my lyrics deal with that I feel like: Where should I be? Is this what it is? Is this all there is? Is this it? Blah, blah, blah, that kind of stuff. So this one actually comes from -- I spent the two years in Korea, and that's where the title comes from, and just coming back, and having, like, a full two year gap from living in the United States, and coming back and starting a life here again, and picking up where you left off, with that gap -- or having a completely different experience living somewhere else that doesn't apply here anymore. So it's like -- I reference, like, you know hearing about, like, he was getting married, and just like kind of these things.

JAKE: So the first verse talks about leaving memories in a box over the sea..

ADAM: Mm-hmm.

JAKE: ... and then the sort of section after that big guitar riffs comes in, where it's a bunch of questions....

ADAM: Yeah, yeah.

JAKE: So those are, like, finding out what people have been doing while you've been gone.

ADAM: Yeah, catching up or just like having that complex of having to go through those small talk questions over and over again. At least, at the time I wrote the song, that's what it felt like, you know. Everyone you meet is like, "Oh! I heard you were in Korea! That must have been an experience, blah, blah, blah." Like all the stuff over and over and over again. Or -- or the same thing, "Oh, so what are you up to now," you know, "I saw on Facebook you finished grad school. Cool, what are you doing?" -- All those small conversations, happening over and over again, in very short span of time, because you're meeting everyone in person for the first time in years.

[EXCERPT FROM 2YRS]

Are you still making money? Are you still getting by? Are you still running from the indians? Are you in another life? Heard you were getting married. Two years really flies right by. I heard you grow old and patriotic Wave those flags way up high

JAKE: "Still running from the Indians?"

ADAM: That's kind of referring to, like, the -- I don't know, just like I was bringing into account the, the mentality of some maybe older generations, or different people. That's just more of a social commentary line. I don't know I just liked the way it flowed, that's all.

JAKE: You've said four different things about that line now.

Adam: [Laughter] it's a very mobile line, as can be.

JAKE: Right, well it does sort of go into the, you know, "I heard you grew old and patriotic..."

ADAM: "Wave those flags way up high." Just in terms of, like, as -- I feel like, generally, as an American species, when people get older and older, they cling more and more to their patriotism.

[EXCERPT FROM 2YRS]

Don't wait until your body breaks. Until your mind escapes. Until you're out of time.

ADAM: I put this song as more of a manifesto.

JAKE: OK.

ADAM: I just feel like, I was just putting a lot of ideas out, without really one cohesive statement. The lyrics don't really have a linear story to them; it's not really necessarily one point in time. Just at the time that it was written, I think the lyrics -- I just wanted to have something that got it out all out there, sort of a general emotional feeling, or a tension I kind of had going on. Or maybe even a little bit of, like, an insecurity about where I was, or like, if there were any 'should have done's or 'should do next'.

[EXCERPT FROM 2YRS]

Don't wait until your body breaks Until your mind escapes Until you're out of time ONE! TWO! THREE! FOUR!

[SONG ENDS]

JAKE: I do want to talk about the drums. So, I mean -- Since it's a song of parts, and, also, it doesn't seem like it has a real regular structure. So, how do you approach figuring out what's appropriate and are you also making suggestions to other people about what they should be doing, or things like that?

JASON: I will. Usually they won't listen.

JAKE: Yeah, well, fair enough. [laughter]

JASON: Sometimes I make some suggestions. Because I also play guitar, so I have ideas there.

ADAM: Well, sometimes we listen. Like that ending --

JASON: Sometimes.

ADAM: -- that ending of 'Chemtrails'.

JASON: I got one, yeah.

Adam: That was it -- yeah, he was like, "I want to do this, like, punk ending." We did, and we love it!

[EXCERPT FROM 'CHEMTRAILS']

And even if you are Everything I want ...

JASON: For the most part, though, I don't -- There's nothing I think needs to change. They just write it, and I follow along, and I try to follow Jim -- drum, bass lock in.

JAKE: Mm-hm.

JASON: That's why it's always interesting when it's just you and I playing.

ADAM: Yeah.

JASON: Then I'm just following you going off...

ADAM: I always mention this: When we have the chance to play as a duo, I like that -- Even live, I like the kind of spontaneity, because I'll try and do things a little bit differently in the songs. When you have all three, you kind of do like you rehearsed more, because then it's three people depending on each other.

JAKE: Right.

ADAM: But when it's, like, two -- like, I might try palm muting a part for a change, where it's actually normally, like, distorted, or louder.

JASON: I kind of take a page from, like, Dave Grohl, where it's just, make nice little fills that are memorable, but don't -- I don't try to overplay. You know, I really just try to keep it solid on the recordings. And then, maybe live, you know, we can develop some more stuff. As you get comfortable with them, you naturally just go off, and do some other things. But I keep it pretty simple, and just kind of follow along and...

JAKE: So, if people want to hear more of your music, what should they do?

ADAM: The best way to hear the music is, we have a Bandcamp and a Soundcloud, so...

JASON: ...theadjuncts...

ADAM: ...theadjuncts.bandcamp.com and SoundCloud is soundcloud.com/theadjuncts. Or, it's probably easier to search 'The Adjuncts', and we'll come up.

Jake: And I'll link to it -- I put together show notes for these things and post them online, so I'll put link to all of that.

ADAM: And we do have a Pinterest, so, if you're --

JAKE: Awesome.

ADAM: If you're into pinning, we have a few boards.

JAKE: Boards such as?

ADAM: We have a Bruce Springsteen board. We have one I think on beards. I have one for banjos, because I play banjo.

JASON: Some recipes.

ADAM: Some recipes, some foods we like.

JASON: We're going to develop, and put, like, all of our instruments. I thought that's interesting for somebody. I know a lot of people might go, like, what kind of pedal is that, what kind of sound is it; to have that kind of information out there.

ADAM: It's an unexplored -- We made it just to grab that, you know, Pinterest, The Adjunct, before someone else did. It's largely unexplored. I think I picked all those boards day one, and then just told people we had a Pinterest.

JASON: The thing about that Pinterest was, too, when we were considering, like, a Facebook, or something like that, or like a Twitter, is that it's less like "me, me, me," you know what I mean? It's like go on there...

ADAM: I'm very anti having a Facebook page.

JASON: He is.

ADAM: But I guess on like Bandcamp you can list your shows.

JAKE: Yes, that's true.

ADAM: Maybe we can make that a new feature we add. We'll throw our upcoming shows on Bandcamp. (laughter)

JAKE: All right. In the meantime people in the Providence, or greater Rhode Island area, can look for posters on, uh ... Telephone poles! That's what they're called! [laughter] And things like that.

JASON: Yup, on all the main streets.

JAKE: Well, if people want to hear my music, you can go to music.jwgh.org, or probably just Google my name, Jacob Haller. And my music's there, my upcoming dates, and whatnot. And I also have website for Tell Me About Your Song -- it's tellmeaboutyoursong.com -- and I post the show notes on Tumblr, at yoursongpodcast.tumblr.com, and I'll put links to the bandcamp page and whatnot there.

ADAM: I do have a Tumblr.

JAKE: Oh!

ADAM: coldsoupy.tumblr.com. So maybe we can...

JAKE: Cold soupy?

ADAM: Soup, it's Cold Soup is the title, but coldsoup.tumblr was taken, so cold soup with a Y --

JAKE: Yes.

ADAM: -- dot tumblr dot com. So I -- and I do, do a lot of... I post a lot of our concert posters on that, and stuff.

JAKE: Oh perfect. So check that out. And, with all that said, we're going to listen to the song we've been talking about: 2YRS by The Adjuncts.

[2YRS plays.]

[solo guitar intro, descending riff] I left all of my memories In a box over the sea It's not really what's in your hands It's what's in your heart Everybody knows, everybody knows, everybody knows how it ends (x2) Call out to me in your darkest of dreams You know nothing can hurt you now You know everything you need to know And your dreams can't hurt you in the morning Everybody knows, everybody knows, everybody knows how it ends (x4) [thrashing guitar riff] Are you still making money? Are you still getting by? Are you still running from the Indians? Are you in another life? I heard you were getting married. Two years really flies right by. I heard you grow old and patriotic Wave those flags way up high Oh, woah oh oh, woah oh oh, woah oh oh [drums and bass into distorted guitar] CODA: (x2) Don't wait until your body breaks Until your mind escapes Until you're out of time ONE! TWO! THREE! FOUR! [guitar riff]

[SONG ENDS]

JAKE: Did the lyrics sort of come at the same time, or --

ADAM: Yeah, a lot of time -- [sound of Adam bumping the microphone] -- Oh, sorry.

JAKE: Watch that pop filter there. [laughter] That thing cost ten dollars.

JASON: It's a nice filter.

ADAM: It is a nice filter.

JAKE: Yeah.

ADAM: Uh --

JAKE: Sorry. [laughter]

[yoursongpodcast]

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For 'Tell Me About Your Song' #68, songwriter Steve Moramarco of The Abe Lincoln Story discussed his song 'Terrifying World' from their album ‘Kings of the Soul Punk Swing’.

Kings of the Soul Punk Swing by The Abe Lincoln Story

In the course of our discussion, we touched on the following topics:

Paul McCartney/Wings's song 'Live and Let Die'

"in which we live in" and the grammaticalness thereof

The 9/11 attacks

"go about our business and lead normal lives and not let these cowards affect us"

Eric Burdon

The Doors and their song Peace Frog

Steve has a couple of bands you should check out: The Abe Lincoln Story and Superbean. He also has put out a movie, The Great Intervention, which you can find on Youtube.

Thanks to flamboyant222 of fiverr.com for transcribing the interview for me.

The 'Tell Me About Your Song' icon was designed by Shaenon K. Garrity.

If you want more information about your host, Jacob Haller, then check out my web page, my facebook page, or my twitter account.

'Tell Me About Your Song' on iTunes - rate and review us!

'Tell Me About Your Song' on stitcher - rate and review us!

'Tell Me About Your Song' rss feed

'Tell Me About Your Song' on Facebook

[yoursongpodcast]

Visit Original Link

For 'Tell Me About Your Song' #67, songwriter Ryan Fitzsimmons discusses his song 'Will My Mind', which is from his album 'Cold Sky'.

Cold Sky by Ryan Fitzsimmons

In the course of our discussion, we touched on the following topics:

The Thousand Islands section of the Saint Lawrence River

Alexandria Bay, NY

The Songwriters in the Round series in Providence, RI

'Dear Eugene', Ryan's other song about his father

The Tom Waits song 'Long Way Home', from the album 'Orphans: Brawlers, Bawlers & Bastards'

St. Cyril's Church in Alexandria Bay

For more about Ryan Fitzsimmons, and to hear more of his music, check out his website, where you can also sign up for his mailing list. Ryan is also a member of Citizen Slim, and you can find out more about them on their facebook page.

Thanks to flamboyant222 of fiverr.com for transcribing the interview for me.

The 'Tell Me About Your Song' icon was designed by Shaenon K. Garrity.

If you want more information about your host, Jacob Haller, then check out my web page, my facebook page, or my twitter account.

'Tell Me About Your Song' on iTunes - rate and review us!

'Tell Me About Your Song' on stitcher - rate and review us!

'Tell Me About Your Song' rss feed

'Tell Me About Your Song' on Facebook