Sorry to post shit I found on reddit but this video has been on my mind for like 3 weeks now

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@10percentbat
Sorry to post shit I found on reddit but this video has been on my mind for like 3 weeks now
the reason people think LLMs are conscious is because they use natural language. we evolved to understand speech and to specifically understand speech as representative of the internal world of the speaker. the only creatures we spoke to were conscious. we evolved specifically to have greater empathy and kinship via conversation - the main way people come to understand each other and feel closer is still just talking.
all that has happened to dorkins is he has fallen into an evolutionary trap. the exact same trap that those tiktokers who believe their dog can talk to them by jumping on buttons have fallen into. because the buttons create a simulacrum of language, however crude, the listening brain itself constructs a simulacrum of the internal world of the perceived speaker. Because that is what it already evolved to do with the only available speakers in its evolutionary history!!!!!!
this seems like a confused post on a lot of levels - the Clever Hans effect, where animals are capable of reacting to unconscious cues that trick people into thinking they have command of language, is a very different situation from consciousness debates in LLMs. for one, we tend to think of animals as conscious, and two, LLMs have a great deal more facility with language than any of the animals triggering the Clever Hans effect.
LLMs are not passively reflecting or reacting to things they're presented with - they are capable of things like making novel mathematical discoveries. by most definitions for most of history, they are "intelligent" and capable of "thinking". the question of how this could be possible without consciousness is what is consuming Dawkins, and contrary to whatever people seem to be reacting to, he does not actually come down hard in favor of LLM consciousness and indeed suggests alternative explanations.
If you are going to claim that Bunny the Dog etc are examples of “ The Clever Hans” effect, you are going to actually back that up somehow rather than merely asserting it. And it is very unclear how it could possibly be an example of The Clever Hans Effect.
For the peanut gallery, Clever Hans was a horse that could supposedly do math, he was asked simple math problems and then would stomp his hoof a number of times equal to the answer. He wasn’t actually doing math though, he was just stomping his feat continuously until his owner gave off micro-expressions that indicated he was satisfied with the answer, and then stopping.
Maybe you could suggest, while wandering around the buttons that the dogs( or pigs or cats etc) are responding to micro-expressions from there owners, and are stopping at certain intervals and pushing certain buttons in response to that, or are tracking there owners eye movement to certain buttons. But none of that would explain why the animal is going to the buttons in the first place. Clever Hans preformed a certain behavior in response to prompting by his master, Bunny is interacting with the button’s unprompted of her own volition. It’s not the same situation.
“Clever Hans” on its own is not substantial enough to explain the phenomenon of Bunny etc, it’s a dumb thought terminating dismissal from a half-remembered case study because you saw an animal communicating with its owner by tapping its feet and decided that was enough to connect two dots together.
Bunny has a strong reinforcement history of knowing that her owner will engage with her if she presses a button. Of course she goes to touch the buttons of her own accord! Her owner has shaped their entire life around responding positively to Bunny hitting a button!
Yes, Exactly! But that is still communication right? She’s consciously engaging in a specific behavior in order to tell her owner she wants attention. Just like a dog putting their head in your lap, or a baby that just learned “ Mama”, or a guy shouting “ Hey” . That’s miles away from randomly jumping on buttons with no goal in mind as OP suggested. Also it is not an example of the clever hans effect.
I also think it’s ridiculous to insist that Bunny doesn’t have different understood meanings for at-least some of her sounds. How many dogs know the word “walk” etc, for an extreme example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaser_(dog) , learned the names of over 1,000 toys and could retrieve the right one when asked to do so. Or just the difference in different verbal commands “sit / paw/ stay/ come/ roll over” etc , dogs clearly are capable of learning multiple verbal phrases and applying distinct meanings to them. Why couldn’t a dog learn the word “ Outside” or “ Medicine” and use them to ask for what she wants? And understand that they have two different meanings and choose between them based on what she is trying to communicate to her owner?
Also I don’t necessarily think just because Devine is interacting with her conversationally and trying to interpret meaning in Bunny’s messages, that she necessarily always believes bunny is communicating, baby’s babble! Children say random stuff sometimes, There playing and practicing language. But part of teaching language is engaging with the babbling, “ mama” and “ papa” variants of them are extremely common words across unrelated languages, because those are some of the easiest and quickest to learn sounds children learn to make and they feature heavily in infants babbling! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mama_and_papa. Just as physical play can be practice for hunting or combat, linguistic play is practice for communication, and it makes perfect sense if say, you were just given access to a new sound you didn’t have before, to repeatedly play or experiment with it , in different contexts with different sounds, and if you are trying to teach someone (with an extremely limited vocabulary so dictionary definitions don’t work) the meaning of the new sound, you should engage them as if they knew the meaning of the word so they can learn the words meaning.
Basically I think Bunny is talking sometimes and babbling sometimes.
I don't think anyone would argue that dogs can't communicate with us. They can absolutely communicate.
They are not using verbal language.
Bunny often does not pick specific buttons. Instead she targets the buttons in general, hits the most obvious/salient button, and waits for feedback from her person. Bunny's videos often feature cuts (where we have no idea what happened) or sped up portions. Many, many "talking dog" videos (Bunny is just the most prominent example) show huge amounts of displacement and stress behavior (disengaging, random sniffing, lip licks, etc) in between button presses that are ignored by the person videoing.
Babies babble in very predictable ways, and importantly the babbling stage is transient. It ends. Humans babble for a limited period in our early life as our brain and body develop, and then we stop using babbling. Babbling is also often self-directed (ie, not communicative at all, just solo practice).
Bunny has had access to her buttons for literal years at this point. This isn't a new tool for her.
Absolutely nobody has demonstrated the ability of dogs or non-human animals in general to construct sentences. Individual words, yes; words with modifiers, sometimes (individual and species dependent); occasionally some grasp of verbs and time.
This is a good one to watch. Bunny hits [mad], receives keep going feedback from handler, hits [ouch] (note that those two are close together), more keep going feedback, orients to handler, shows expectant body language--this is common from dogs who know that certain behaviors get rewarded, often my dogs will do this and then if not rewarded, repeat the behavior more intensely. Then there is a cut. We don't know what happens in the cut. Bunny swats at her face/ear with her right paw and hits [stranger]. This is a nonsensical button to push, and she does know "stranger" to some degree, because when handler repeats the word, Bunny orients to the window and looks outside.
Then Bunny hits [paw], which may be deliberate. Definitely once handler says "in your paw", Bunny responds to that as a cue--approach handler, and gives her left paw. So not the same one she was fussing with earlier.
Some things:
Is Bunny communicating? 100%.
What is she communicating? That she likes to play this silly game with her person but she's not always clear on which answers will get rewarded (for her, clearly attention is rewarding).
Is this the quickest way to learn there's a thorn in my dog's foot? No. My dogs will limp dramatically; one of them will come to me and hit me with the affected foot.
Is Bunny deliberately telling her handler that there's a thorn in her paw? Absolutely not. There is a minimum of 38 seconds between the first button press and the paw examination. If she is deliberately telling her handler, I would expect [ouch] and [paw] in quick succession. Instead she starts with [mad] (why? LOTS of attention for [mad]!! It's a very funny button to press!!) before offering some others. Similarly [paw] is a very clear button with clear cause-effect.
My dogs know a lot of words and show different behavior for those words. They know the difference between "person", "dog", "cat", and "bicycle". They also exhibit clear communication towards me: I'm scared is different from I'm in pain is different from I'm bored love me, even when all are broadly expressed by trying to climb in my lap.
None of this is language though.
Bunny is 100% Clever Hans. What happens if you ask Bunny a question to which the asker does not know the answer? What happens if you use a pre-recorded audio to talk to her? What happens if you watch her with even a little bit of skepticism? Are there simpler answers to her behavior?
For a less human-cued example: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/9_fZu5L6SCs?feature=share This is very cute, but also one button press, again with a very simple definition. And before the button press, she had been clearly requesting attention! She is rewarded for the button press with attention! This is straight forward operant conditioning!
how measurements work in canada (ie/ badly)
This shit reads like a tumblr post
the beach that. makes you dead
we're all so lucky that a cat can be orange. that's such an incredible color for a cat to be
People are unfazed if you hate women but if you dislike dogs they assume you're a bad person
Tumblr users will read a post complaining about normalized misogyny and hyperfocus on your claim that it's ok to dislike dogs
Breaking news all sports indefinitely cancelled because we have lost tbe ball
ppput iit up myy asss sss ssss
✅ seceet decoded !
They don't promote movies like this anymore
You listen to music regularly? Why? Have you even tried quitting? Could you quit? You get music stuck in your head? Wow. You're so ruined and music brained. I bet you make your partners listen to music with you when you have sex. Music addiction has really ruined a whole generation. You know it's not realistic to expect reverb in real life, right? You're probably so desensitized that you don't even feel anything anymore when you hear a bird singing that it wants some fuck.
I don't have a problem with people listening to music per se, but I do have a problem with the music industry exploiting & mistreating artists.
Personally, I abstain from all music in order to keep my hands clean but really music should just be illegal outright to protect musicians from abuse.
holy shit this person in the notes
the enemy drank water today. did you?
i drank water three days ago. im several steps ahead of the enemy. this is what it takes to win
they killed him for this
Happy Pride to this guy
CulturArtsCanneryRow
psa...this entire video is AI generated. none of these clips are real recorded shots. this is where things are at now.
for anyone doubting!
contender for stupidest fucking line in sonic history
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They are emailing eachother
Top 3 things people love insisting they don't have despite it being impossible
Pronouns
An accent
Bias
Im going to shoot you people with a fucking gun
Everyone has an accent it came free with your language 🙄
Congrats to every reply like this for failing to understand the fundamental definition of an accent. Of course you think you sound normal! It's the way you speak!
Gonna sign language at you in a very southern accent
Sign languages also comes with accents, you can easily watch people sign and tell the difference
You get different sign language accents, you get regional accents, and you even get "second language speaker accent"