I wasn't going to post anything here, but I guess I can't just keep invading other people's comments... So here we go!
New to Tumblr. New-ish to the AFTG fandom, in that I read the books when they first came out in 2013-2014 when there wasn't one. Imagine my surprise when I discovered that there were not only new books, but that it was like "a thing" now. I've been catching up since, and am once again obsessed.
Yeah, I'm "old." *sighs*
I enjoy some good (evidence-based) fandom discourse. My vision is definitely skewed by kevjean-tinted glasses, but I seriously question some people's reading comprehension.
(Just to be clear, I'll be okay with a purely jerejean endgame, but am still keeping my fingers crossed for kerejean at this point.)
If you happen to be another fan from "the old days," feel free to message me. I'd love to chat...
I want kerejean to do the Olympic commentary after they retire. Jean and Kevin would either be bickering with each other or dragging some poor player/team to hell and back. Jeremy would try his best to keep the peace and be positive, but he'd obviously be trying not to laugh at their rude comments.
We know that the Ravens' cars were mostly for show and the players were (almost) never allowed to drive anywhere, but we also know that they were kept in working condition...
This implies the existence of a Raven car maintenance guy.
It was (at least part of) someone's job to periodically start the engines (at least every couple weeks), possibly drive them around a bit, rotate the tires, change the oil, etc. Cars that are sitting for long periods of time should have a full tank with fuel stabilizer added, but we know that the Ravens' cars were left almost empty. This would have only made keeping them running more difficult.
There were 22 Ravens on the lineup Neil's freshman year. 23 cars that needed to be maintained.
They wasted so much money and energy for those cars to sit in a parking lot for 5 years...
"do you have any idea how much both jeremy and especially jean love kevin??"
Have we read the same books? lol Jeremy barely even KNOWS Kevin, they only text about Jean and see eo once a year. In TSC Jean would have killed Kevin with his own hands if it meant being free from the promise he made him. He wished Kevin dead/would kill himself. And yes, it's trauma, but pretending that didn't happen is insane.
Literally nothing about them 3 says LOVE. Jeremy respects him as a player. Jean used to rely on him in the Nest and was betrayed and now can barely stand to be in the same room as him.
You Kevin fans need to face reality:
Nora has said Kevin has NO friends (this idea that Jean, Jeremy, Neil and Andrew are his bffs is pure delusion not supported by canon) and said that it will take him YEARS to make friends and he'll have to wait for retirement because he is too obsessed with Exy. The only person truly close to him is Thea (bc they're so similar, and even with her we see how distant their relationship is). She also said that whoever gets involved with Kevin will have to deal with his narcissism, and that the chances of a friendship with Jean died years ago.
Kevin was a victim of the Nest and Riko, he's not the villain of the story. But to pretend that everyone LOVES him when in canon (and extra content) people can barely stand him is madness.
Waymack and Thea are possibly the only exception.
Kevin is not a good person that everyone loves. No one in the Foxes is a good person that everyone loves. That's the point of the books.
This isn't hate. This is seeing him as he was written (and as the people around him were written). Him being a core character of the story doesn't contradict any of it.
So yeah maybe it's better if you stay away from the story if you can't stand how he is written in canon and what the author says about him.
As cowardly as hiding behind anon is, I'll humour this in good faith.
Interestingly enough, the world has multiple versions and definitions of love, just as there are infinite ways each reader may or may not interpret a piece of fiction. That is the point of literature, to provoke thought. Of which an occasional person can lack, clearly.
Personally, I'd like to see love in many interactions across aftg characters—all of which are flawed, yes, but that in no way makes them incapable of containing a multitude of traits, characters, like people, are contradictory—and it is clear to me that some readers have difficulty understanding that you can both hate and love someone at the same time, especially if the bond is rooted in some form of trauma.
Jeremy wrote to Kevin, trusted him enough to let a stranger into his home because Kevin vouched for said stranger, and (from what I've gathered thus far) felt very supported by Kevin during his scandal. Supporting openly queer athletes is a big deal in general, but especially in the 2000s.
Jean did not kill Kevin, nor would he ever actually initiate such a notion. He is a character that is sick of violence, despite being used to it; whatever makes you believe the fact that Jean would want to kill Kevin despite the fact that he appeared uneasy with Neil killing his literal rapist, is beyond me. Maybe I managed to read more of the book than you did. Also, the thought of violence is very different from actually being willing to physically enact violence, most people with regular impulse control who do not send aggravated anon messages are aware of this.
My 'facing reality' as a Kevin fan would be me shutting my laptop, because I'm an adult that usually avoids engaging in fictional discourse. In which case, perhaps we should discuss hypocrisy...
As for Nora's statements, I would like to wait for the Queen's duology to release, because it will undoubtedly shed some light and provide context for all of us. Who knows, maybe I'll end up hating Kevin, I'll be the first to admit that I disliked him on my first Foxhole read-through. I'm open to the notion, just as I am open to your opinion were it not written in a tone that indicates some degree of malice. Oh, look, I can type in bold, too.
"Kevin is not a good person that everyone loves. No one in the Foxes is a good person that everyone loves. That's the point of the books."
"This isn't hate. This is seeing him as he was written (and as the people around him were written). Him being a core character of the story doesn't contradict any of it."
These are good points, I cannot entirely disagree with them; Kevin is most definitely widely disliked even amongst his own team, and the Foxes are meant to be flawed as a whole. I think that much is obvious.
My point about him being a core part of the story was not meant as a defence of Kevin the 'person', it was a comment on how I wouldn't personally indulge in a series if I hated a main character as much as some people hate him, because at that point the media is not as enjoyable to me. Therefore I don't particularly understand people who claim to be fans of the series while harbouring such aversion to its content...first-time readers are known to have assumed that Kevin would be the love interest instead of Andrew, which goes to show how pivotal he is.
"So yeah maybe it's better if you stay away from the story if you can't stand how he is written in canon and what the author says about him."
I could have almost believed that you simply wanted to share an othering opinion with a fellow fan, which could have been rather interesting, but you're underlying statement appears to be "if you don't like it, you shouldn't read it."
...In which case, why did you bother to spend time reading my post, typing out a lengthy response, and concluding with an assumption that indicates you lacked the literacy needed to understand my text. I did not mention disliking how Kevin is written, I did not state disliking Nora's comments about him.
I claimed to be saddened by petty ship discourse, which divides the fandom rather than unites it. Much like this, which "isn't" hate, but is rather tiring.
This wasn't my ask. I told myself to let it go. But this is one of the dumbest takes I've ever seen, and I just couldn't. It's the misquoting and blatant disregard of the source material that really got to me.
@frankensaffytaffy did a great job responding, but I have... a lot that I want to add...
Long af (color-coded!) response under the cut!
"Have we read the same books? lol"
purple - me
blue - receipts
red - ✨emphasis✨
Obviously fucking not.
"Jeremy barely even KNOWS Kevin, they only text about Jean and see eo once a year."
They hadn't seen each other in two years, or even talked for over a year when they played in TKM. Still, Kevin trusted Jeremy enough to send Jean to him, and Jeremy trusted Kevin enough to take Jean in with very few questions asked. I also find it interesting that they are so close considering how little contact they had in the past... But they considered each other friends long before Jean ever met Jeremy.
It's true that they spend a lot of time talking about Jean, but Jean is not the only thing they talk about.
Kevin tells Jeremy the truth about his hand. He is able to do this for Jean because of how much he trusts Jeremy.
During Aaron's trial:
Jeremy went through six different drafts before finally texting Kevin a simple, “Are you okay?”
Totally normal amount of thought to put into a text to someone you "respect as a player." Also notice that the only person he's concerned about is Kevin, not the other Foxes involved in the trial. This isn't just Jeremy being a "good guy."
Jeremy then rushes off the court in the middle of practice to message Kevin after they get the news about Aaron's acquittal. Totally normal not-friend behavior.
Jeremy understood why it was such a tight turnaround, but he wished Kevin would stick around longer. He wanted to show Kevin the best Los Angeles had to offer. If this trip went well enough, maybe he could convince Kevin to fly out again. Maybe he could go out to South Carolina, though the last time he’d looked up Palmetto State there’d been a genuinely impressive lack of things to do in the area.
You want me to believe these are the words of a man who can "barely stand" Kevin? Really?
Later, Jeremy freaks out about night practice and calls Neil to try to get Kevin to stop. This is a HUGE overreaction on Jeremy's part, even for a friend.
"In TSC Jean would have killed Kevin with his own hands if it meant being free from the promise he made him."
Jean would have let Kevin kill himself. He "would have slashed the tires on his car before [he] let him escape." Those are not the same thing as killing him with his own hands. Jean's feelings for Kevin are extremely complicated. A large part of the reason he hates him is because he loves him.
"He wished Kevin dead/would kill himself. And yes, it's trauma, but pretending that didn't happen is insane."
Who is pretending otherwise? Yes, Jean wanted to die, but he couldn't even bring himself to break his promise to Kevin, much less kill him. Again, because he was in love with him...
"Literally nothing about them 3 says LOVE."
Except for the whole "Jean being in love with Kevin" thing... Also, there are other types of love besides romantic love! Where do you draw the line between "cares deeply for" and "loves?"
"Jeremy respects him as a player."
I'm sure this is true, but can you point me to the line where Jeremy actually talks about Kevin in terms of his exy skill? I suppose that "brilliant, unparalleled friend" could possibly count? Jeremy almost never talks about Kevin as a player though, just as his friend.
"Jean used to rely on him in the Nest and was betrayed and now can barely stand to be in the same room as him."
If by "rely on" you mean "be in love with," then sure. Jean wants to hate Kevin, but he doesn't. It's why he kept the postcards and magnets even after they were destroyed. It's why when he gets a new one he says "I hate him" ("Jeremy wisely didn’t comment on that transparent lie.") then hangs it on the wall above his desk. Jean can barely stand to be in the same room as Kevin because it brings back old feelings. The cooking scene is one example, but the bigger one is:
Jeremy assumed Jean was used to Kevin’s bossiness after so many years together, but he glanced at Jean’s face to gauge his mood. The look on Jean’s face, there and gone again in a heartbeat, was almost enough to startle him off the doorframe. Jeremy had no time to dwell on this sudden understanding; Jean felt Jeremy’s stare on him and was thoughtless enough to return it.
Jean is still in love enough with Kevin in August for Jeremy to pick up on it. He may wish that he wasn't, but he is. It's complicated and messy, but that's honestly part of the appeal...
"You Kevin fans need to face reality:
Nora has said Kevin has NO friends (this idea that Jean, Jeremy, Neil and Andrew are his bffs is pure delusion not supported by canon) and said that it will take him YEARS to make friends and he'll have to wait for retirement because he is too obsessed with Exy."
Ignoring the fact that the EC isn't canon and was taken down for a reason, you seem to be referencing the following:
Q: Who is Kevin's best friend, if he has one? Or who is he closest to? I'm always wishing the best for Kevin. Forever and always
A: Who is Kevin’s best friend? Who are Kevin’s friends, period? Ha! We see how well his friendship with Jean turned out, yeah? Friendship is something Kevin is still learning ((something he doesn’t see a point of learning, tbh, what a time suck, what a distraction!!)), and it’s going to take him a while to figure it out. He can’t be friends with people who aren’t into Exy, but if they’re bad at Exy or don’t try to his standards, he’s too annoyed with them to tolerate them for long. So that needy, competitive, high-handed streak does more for making him enemies than friends.
But he’s not beyond saving. Andrew & Neil could be his friends, technically, especially after Andrew & Kevin stop fighting over Exy all the time. Neil & Kevin squabble more often now that Neil’s stolen his game & style back from Kevin, but they’re still intensely obsessed with each other’s talent and potential and they’ll never walk away from each other.
Kevin & Thea get much closer once the Moriyamas stop intervening with their flirting. Kevin & Jeremy stay in touch once Jean moves to the Trojans and will eventually become proper friends instead of just mutually adoring rivals. Kevin likes his professional team, for the most part, but he’s more likely to be “friends” with the best of the US Court.
And then one day, when Kevin’s finally grown up a bit, he and Thea will befriend some people at the dog park who not only don’t play Exy but who cheer for all the wrong teams and that is when Kevin will finally be a functional and mature adult.
I don't know what you're talking about when you say Kevin has "NO friends" until he retires. Did you even read the content you're referencing?
Q: Do Andrew & Kevin or Kevin & Neil stay friends after graduation, or do they only really interact on court?
A: They’re still friends, albeit long-distance ones. They don’t go out of their way to see each other, but if they’re nearby they’re likely to drop in for a drink or a bite. Neil and Kevin are more likely to text than call, but now and again Kevin will call Andrew. ((He knows Andrew will pick up))
We also have Jeremy explicitly calling Kevin his friend to his fucking face...
Have we read the same books? ("lol")
Jeremy couldn’t manage a smile, but he knew Kevin didn’t expect one from him. “Thank you. You’re a good friend, Kevin. I hope you know that.”
“He and I are not friends.”
“But you’re mine,” Jeremy said, and said again, “Thank you."
"The only person truly close to him is Thea (bc they're so similar, and even with her we see how distant their relationship is). She also said that whoever gets involved with Kevin will have to deal with his narcissism, and that the chances of a friendship with Jean died years ago. "
Saying that Thea is the only person close to Kevin when they didn't talk for like two years and she doesn't even know the truth is hilarious.
Nora also said in the EC that Kevin and Jean wouldn't talk until the Trojans and Foxes met at championships. Things have obviously changed. Who knows what else may change in the future...
"Kevin was a victim of the Nest and Riko, he's not the villain of the story. But to pretend that everyone LOVES him when in canon (and extra content) people can barely stand him is madness."
No denying that Kevin pisses a lot of characters off. Even if you don't see the others' love for Kevin as romantic (which, with the exception of Jean, is admittedly not canon) there are different kinds of love. It's obvious that Andrew, Neil, Jeremy, and Jean care deeply about Kevin. Even if he annoys them sometimes. I'd argue that part of Kevin's charm is the fact that he is (usually, but NOT always) a hot mess, exy-obsessed, asshole and characters still can't help but love him. Andrew didn't fly to California because he can "barely stand" Kevin. Wymack or Neil easily could have gone in his place considering they both actually give a shit about Jean.
You also completely ignore every good and selfless thing Kevin does during the series. This is most evident in the effort he puts into easing Jean's transition to the Trojans, but there are plenty of other examples from the original trilogy.
"Waymack and Thea are possibly the only exception."
Don't forget about Abby!
"Kevin is not a good person that everyone loves. No one in the Foxes is a good person that everyone loves. That's the point of the books."
Yet the others are still loved... Not saying that everyone loves Kevin, but there are at least a few people who (in some way) do.
"This isn't hate. This is seeing him as he was written (and as the people around him were written). Him being a core character of the story doesn't contradict any of it."
I'm laughing on the inside...
"So yeah maybe it's better if you stay away from the story if you can't stand how he is written in canon and what the author says about him."
To say that your reading comprehension skills are seriously lacking would be an understatement. I would suggest that you read the entire series again, but I doubt it would do any good. A take this bad can only come from willful ignorance and deliberate misreading.
You don't have to like Kevin. You certainly don't have to ship him with anyone. However, this level of blind hate is just plain stupid and in direct contradiction to the books and the EC.
Can I please get a fic featuring Andrew and Kevin back in their hotel room the night after the interview in TGR? Where Kevin finally doesn't have to look strong for Jean and starts freaking out about how everything went. Then he gets even more drunk and crashes out about jerejean and how badly he fucked everything up. (But like, in a cryptic way where he never actually admits anything...?) Finally, Kevin asks Andrew why he even came with him to CA, and Andrew replies that he had a feeling something like this would happen. Kevin's not sure if he's referring to the mess of the interview or him losing his shit over Jean (and Jeremy). Andrew definitely meant both...
I've seen a lot of debate about the Perfect Court tattoos being Arabic or Roman numerals. Personally, I am team Arabic for a number of reasons:
• Riko and Kevin started drawing them on when they were kids.
• Arabic numerals match their jersey numbers.
• It's... canon...
Here we go! I'm sure that this has all been said before, but I feel the need to say it again...
First, some quotes from the books regarding the tattoos:
TFC
Everything was the same, from his dark hair and green eyes to the black number two tattooed onto his left cheekbone.
Kevin had that number back then, too, but he'd been too young to have it done permanently.
Instead he and his adopted brother Riko Moriyama wrote the numbers one and two on their faces with markers, tracing them over and over anytime they started to fade.
The number one tattooed on his left cheekbone told everyone in the audience who'd just walked onto Kathy's stage.
TRK
He'd be wearing the "3" tattoo that adorned Jean Moreau's face.
Riko pressed a thumb to Neil's cheekbone, in the same spot where the three had their numbered tattoos.
He was less ready to see the "4" tattooed on his left cheekbone.
TKM
The story changed a little when Jean made his first public appearance with a "3" on his face.
Kevin had worn a "2" since his first days in the Moriyamas' cruel care. Riko and Kevin used markers for years, writing over their numbers any time they threatened to fade.
TSC
Jean pressed his fingers to the tattoo on his face, stomach roiling with sudden violence. He’d had 3 since he was fifteen.
Despite the friction between him and the rest of the defense line, Jean was perfect Court, a 3 missing his 4.
TGR
A couple people they passed were good enough fans to recognize the Trojans on sight; others were close enough to see the 3 on Jean’s face and react to that.
The tattoos are never described as Roman numerals. The Arabic numerals are frequently in quotation marks. It is worth noting that Nora seems to have stopped putting them in quotation marks in the new books. I feel like this is probably due to the fact that she knows many fans prefer Roman numerals. She still uses Arabic numerals though.
Here's what Nora had to say about the tattoos:
One argument that I commonly see in favor of Roman numerals that it's easier to alter into Kevin's queen piece tattoo. (Edited to add credit.) @tessasilverswan drew a wonderful example of how a "2" becomes a queen:
(Image from this ask. Thank you @leroiestmortvivelareine for finding it!)
If you prefer Roman numerals, you are welcome to imagine and draw them that way. You have Nora's blessing. I am EXTREMELY grateful to the wonderful fan artists who do so!
But... if you want to be canonically accurate... they are Arabic numerals. It's not a question. It never was. I'm still not sure how anyone read the books and thought they were anything else.
(Also, I really want Cat to turn Jean's "3" into a "<3." It could also be a flower or butterfly... So many possibilities!)
「His head was an echo chamber, spinning Jean’s words out of context on endless repeat. He should say something, but Jeremy was afraid to open his mouth. He wasn’t sure what might come out.
At last he managed a weak, “Good night, Jean,” as he tugged the sleeping bag up over his head.
It’d be a miracle if he got any sleep tonight, and Jeremy prayed he wouldn’t dream.」
This quote from chapter 22 of TGR got me thinking... I've seen plenty of fics where Jeremy wakes up to Jean having a nightmare, but where are the fics about either of them waking up to the other having a very good dream?
If anyone has a rec, please send it my way. If it doesn't exist yet, someone please write it!
The thing is, you can't save any of the four without ruining any chance at happiness for the other three. Their stories are all so connected.
Without Kevin, Jean dies in the nest, Neil never comes to PSU, and Andrew never fixes things with Aaron or finds something to build his life around.
Without Jean, Kevin probably loses even more of himself and never escapes the Nest. He either lives his life as Riko's pet, eventually gets killed, or kills himself. Same results as above for Andrew and Neil.
Without Andrew, Kevin doesn't stay at PSU. If Kevin lasts long enough to even recruit him, Neil doesn't stay either. Both most likely end up dead. Jean definitely does.
Without Neil, the Foxes never come together. Andrew never fixes things with Aaron and ends up miserable. Kevin never finds his spine, and probably gets murdered by Ichiro. One way or another, Jean dies.
The boardgame enthusiast in me is DYING to know what Jeremy, Jean, Cat, Laila, and Kevin were playing in TGR...
Something for at least 5 players, that came out before August 2007, that Jean would willingly play, and that Kevin could play for the first time while drunk...
Made an AFTG map for myself, and decided to share it in hopes that it might be useful to someone...
Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.
It includes PSU, Columbia, USC, Laila's house and the Lofts (according to Nora's post), the locations of as many other collegiate teams (both real and fictional) as I could determine, and more.
(I have marked Virginia Tech as a possible location for the '05 winter banquet because it is the closest NCAA Division 1 school in VA to Charleston, WV. Assuming that Nora based her fake schools on real ones, Kevin would have driven at least this far after Riko broke his hand.)
I do not have enough information on the following teams:
Breckenridge
Blackwell
Wilkes-Meyer
JD Campbell
SUA
and whoever the Foxes play in Florida...
I'm only partway through my reread of TGR, so may be missing more.
If you know where these schools are located, or have any other corrections or suggestions, please let me know!
(edited to add:)
I'm not really sure about EAU...
The closest (of two) real NCAA Division 1 school to Charleston is Marshall University in Huntington, WV. I would assume this is it, but could also see Nora making EAU completely fictional because they're... evil...
Neil also didn't comment much about the drive from the airport, and Marshall is an hour away.
If anyone has any additional information, please share!
He knew the truth about Riko, the Moriyamas, and the Ravens. He laughed about the Kathy interview. He wanted to send Kevin back to Evermore. Because he was jealous over some flowers and fan letters? He's dating a literal heiress who grew up with a silver spoon in her mouth and flaunts her wealth at every opportunity. Seth knows that the media's portrayal of Kevin's life is a lie, but he still holds it against him.
Kevin and Seth were both assholes. They both fought. They both hated each other. But Seth would have sent Kevin back to the Ravens, knowing what that meant, because he was jealous of things beyond Kevin's control.
Seth didn't deserve to die, but I don't really care that he did. The Foxes were better off without him.
I know that Kengo was already very sick, but I still wonder if Nathan being taken out and the FBI investigation contributed to his death. It would have caused him immense stress, and the timing is too close for me to believe that it's just a coincidence.
Would things have played out differently had Riko not made Neil so recognizable? Did Riko's actions ultimately lead to his father's death? Did he know? Did the rest of the family blame him for it?
It would help explain why Tetsuji was invited to the funeral and Riko was not. Everyone knows that Riko is Kengo's son. Surely it would have been better for the family's image for him to attend, but he wasn't allowed.
