When are we going to talk about how utterly over the top and ridiculous neurotypical advice for ADHD and sleep is?? It’s straight up fucking bonkers.
Someone with ADHD: I really really struggle to fall asleep at “regualr times”, no matter how tired I am I just can’t seem to fall asleep at 10 pm!!! But I almost instantly fall asleep any time after 2 am. What should I do?
NT sleep advice: You, someone who cannot conceptualize time in any way whatsoever, need to identify TWO HOURS in advance when you want to sleep and, with your executive dysfunction that makes making decisions at will almost straight up impossible, make the decision to stop whatever you’re involuntarily hyperfixating on. Then, you, with a focus disorder that makes it so that you have to be doing something at all times, sit and do nothing for 2 hours. You cannot read. You cannot be on your phone. Do not move. Do not talk to people. Just sit and do nothing. If you can’t fall asleep it’s because you Did Something and it’s your fault. Bluelight 24 hours before you want to sleep is the reason. Never look at a TV, Phone, computer, OR let one of these objects be within a 24,000 mile radius of you. Never ever go NEAR your bed unless you’re already asleep. If you are AWAKE in your bedroom ever you will not be able to sleep.
ADHD Sleep Advice: Get a job that starts at 2 pm or later and go to sleep at 4 am and wake up at noon.
Half my life right here lol
All my life I have had intense insomnia and all the sleep advice I’ve gotten has been like the NT bullshit. Everyone told me it was my fault and I wasn’t trying hard enough. I finally went to a sleep doc and she just laughed and gave me the ADHD version of sleep advice. She told me more often than anything else she prescribes people permission to go to sleep late.
Non-snarky question: does anyone have good ADHD sleep advice for someone who is not able to get a job that starts in the middle of the day? My sister teaches high school and is a single parent to an elementary aged kid. “Sleep till noon” is not an option, but there’s got to be something better than “so you’re just screwed, I guess!” or the aforementioned impossible nonsense. Brilliant ADHD folks, any ideas?
actually yes! For most of my life I have had horrible sleep habits, because not only do I have the classic ADHD delayed sleep phase pattern, but my goddamn hamster wheel of a brain would often keep spinning well into the early morning hours. Lots of nights spent tossing and turning, unplanned all-nighters in college, etc.
What helped was 1) anxiety meds and 2) melatonin. I have multiple timers on my phone to ensure that I take both of these before 10 PM every night, and if I’m consistent about it I can reliably fall asleep around midnight and wake up at 7 even without a morning alarm. (I still HAVE a morning alarm, obviously. not gonna tempt fate over here.) Waking up before 7 and being any kind of functional is still a challenge, but if I had to I could probably make it work.
Also, I have emergency backup Xanax (in a tiny baby dosage) for nights when my usual routine fails to silence the hamster wheel. I go through a 30-pill refill of that in six months or so, normally. Although 2020 has been, uh, a lot more anxiety-inducing than average.
(my last doctor’s appointment was at the very beginning of March, and at the time I asked to refill my emergency Xanax for upcoming election reasons. really glad i did that, y’all.)
A) PERFECTIONISM WILL FUCK YOU
So y’all know the ADHD perfectionist thing, right, the “if I can’t do it right i might as well not do it at all?” thing? Your brain tells you the same thing about sleep. “Oh well, didn’t make it to bed by 1230, guess I’ll stay up till 1; oh well, didn’t make it to bed by 345, might as well stay up till 4.”
Please learn that that is bullshit because sometimes just consciously being aware that what you’re doing is an ADHD thing is enough to remind you that you’ve got coping mechanisms for this and can shock you out of your dysfunctional pattern.
Also your ADHD brain is a shithead and will sometimes say “well I couldn’t get to sleep on time, might as well just stay up all night.” And FUCK YOUR ADHD BRAIN, any sleep is better than no sleep, Mythbusters did a thing about that, even just going to bed and closing your eyes for 20 minutes is better than not getting into bed at all and sometimes that’s ALSO enough to trick your brain into going to fucking sleep.
B) DON’T LAY IN BED AND TORTURE YOURSELF
If you’ve been in bed and unsuccessfully trying to fall asleep for more than an hour just get up (or even if you don’t physically get up just pick up your book or your phone or whatever). This isn’t “Fine I’ll Just Stay Up All Night” this is “my cycling thoughts aren’t going to let me sleep so I’m gonna distract my brain by focusing on something else for a bit.”
If you try to force yourself to fall asleep you just get stuck in a “I should be asleep, why am I still awake, what the fuck is wrong with me just go to fucking sleep” thought pattern and keep yourself awake. Just. Play some tetris for a bit. You’ll probably get sleepy pretty soon.
C) BRING YOUR HYPERFIXATION TO BED. YES EVEN IF IT’S BLUE LIGHT.
Okay so I quit smoking about a year ago and that’s the thing that’s made the single biggest difference in my sleep schedule because when I was still smoking I’d sit in the garage next to the ashtray and read/write/draw/whatever and have a cigarette every once in a while. And then I’d get sleepy but I wouldn’t be able to motivate myself to stand up and go to bed until I was more awake at which point I got more engaged in whatever it was that I was doing.
When I quit smoking I started hanging out in bed and drawing or reading fanfic or whatever and the magical thing is that when I’m tired I can just put my phone or my notebook down and go to sleep. I even keep my meds and my phone charger and a bottle of water on my headboard so I don’t have to stand up and take my pills I just put my stuff down and go to sleep. This has taken me from an average bedtime of 4-5am to an average bedtime of 1-3am and sometimes I can even go to sleep at midnight if I’m tired enough. THIS IS MAGICAL AND HAS LITERALLY NEVER HAPPENED FOR ME BEFORE. I still have “whoops, got into this book and stayed awake until 5 am” nights once every couple of months but it is so much better than when that used to happen two or three times a week.
(that is, of course, with a work start time of 9am; left to my own devices or working a schedule I choose I’m more likely to be in bed by 7am and getting up at 2pm.)
D) Hey you know how they tell you to stop drinking caffeine at like, 5pm or some ridiculous bullshit? That made everything immeasurably worse for me. Honestly see if having a cup of coffee around bedtime helps.
E) TAKE FUCKING NAPS
Because here’s the deal, if you can’t get around the terrible and cruel dayperson’s schedule requirements then you’re going to just have to get used to dealing with less sleep and that is *terrible* for you but you can make it slightly less terrible by taking an afternoon or a just-off-work nap. And sometimes the nap will hit you really hard and you’ll sleep for like ten hours and then you’ll probably be awake too early but what, you probably didn’t even have enough of a sleep schedule to be worried about ruining it.
F) If you’ve got the hamster wheel going try to think about things that require your focus but that are kind of boring. I tend to either multiply by 3s until I can’t keep track and then start over OR I focus on feeling the pulse in every part of my body from my toes to my scalp and back down until I’m asleep.
GOOD LUCK.
ALSO YOU ARE NOT A LOSER OR LAZY OR A SHITTY PERSON IF YOU CAN’T SLEEP AT “NORMAL” TIMES.
And I’m sorry because you’ve probably heard that and heard “well you could do it if you really wanted to” and that fucking blows and I wish nobody had been such a fucking asshole to you.
Not everybody sleeps on the same schedule and it’s not your fault if your brain is wired to a schedule that society thinks is wrong BUT you probably do need to recognize that society is going to do its very best to fuck you over and if you can start planning now for the kind of work that lets you set your own schedule you might want to do so. That is the kind of benefit that is on par with health insurance and 401K matching. If one business is letting you sleep at your normal schedule and another business needs you in at 8AM but pays 10K more I’ve gotta tell you that the sleep schedule that makes you feel best and not getting yelled at by your boss over lateness because you overslept AGAIN is probably worth ten thousand dollars.
And if you’re a teenager and dealing with this that is so, so, so, shitty buds. You may want to see if you can get assistance through your school’s disability accommodation team.
Okay but these tips are not even helping the slightest for people with ADHD that asks for tips on how to go to bed around normal time because life requires them to, and people are like “just get a job that fits your sleep schedule” or “just take naps” as if that’s helpful. I hate to be that person, but not using your phone 1 hour before sleep works, also reading books works really good too. The biggest issue is the executive dysfunction and to deal with that, start your going to be routine one hour earlier than what you actually planned. That way the body gets used to going to bed one hour earlier too. Also, stay consistent with that. The biggest issue is when we stay up to four am and the problem there is that we get jet lagged and sometimes it takes days to recover from one.
A tip from my psychiatrist when you have fucked your sleeping schedule: take half a melatonin pill if you have that around 5 pm and then your normal amount 30 min before bed. Then it will help you get back on normal sleeping schedule again.
“The biggest problem is executive dysfunction and to fix that you need to have a functional understanding of time.”
I’m gonna stop you right there, chief. I don’t “plan” to “go to bed” I get distracted inking and suddenly it’s 2am and I need to eat dinner.
Also no, my biggest problem is a delayed sleep phase, which is what a lot of people in this thread are talking about and which may be a problem for a significant percentage of people with ADHD.
Hi I’m a person with ADHD and I fall asleep in bed with my phone in my hand and a cup of coffee on my nightstand hours earlier than I used to be able to because I broke the perfectionist anxiety cycle and learned to hang out places where it would be easy to fall asleep.
For 9 years I’ve also worked a job with a 9-5 schedule that is nearly as brutal on me as my 7-4 high school schedule was and I desperately miss my coffee shop job that paid a quarter as much because I was actually able to sleep on my natural sleep cycle for once in my life.
I’m glad you found something that works for you but if “remembering to take a pill at the same time every day” or “having a set schedule” or “hearing alarms” is part of your plan for sleep management it is not a workable plan for me.
What works for me is getting around 5-6 hours of sleep a night and napping occasionally.
I’m not saying “UwU go get a different job” I’m saying “if you have the ability to plan on looking for work that allows you to set your own schedule you should understand that a benefit like that can be literally life saving if you’ve got major delayed sleep issues”
If you have a sleep phase delay and you think you’re going to be able to successfully bully yourself into getting up at 645 every day to be a kindergarten teacher I’ve got to say that you are probably underestimating how much this kind of thing can impact your life and health and if you’re in the beginning stages of your life journey I’d recommend maybe exploring other career options.
But after getting treated for insomnia and told to do light therapy and mediation techniques for 20 years I can tell you that what works for me is stable caffeine consumption, being able to just set stuff down and go to sleep when I’m tired, remembering that a little sleep is better than no sleep, and occasional naps.
You ever been to the delayed sleep phase subreddit? That, my friends, is a depressing place.
But, as depressing as it is, it’s also liberating.
I’m really, really happy that avoiding your phone after dark works for you but this was a problem for me before cell phones and home PCs were a thing I had in my life. Avoiding blue light and keeping distractions out of my room isn’t going to work for me. Been there, done that, tried the melatonin.
You say “reading is any option” to calm you down for sleep as though a) I haven’t just said that one of my remaining sleep issues is staying up because I got sucked into a book and b) sleep professionals don’t tell you not to read at bedtime. They fucking do. I’ve heard them. “You should be relaxing and settling your mind, not looking for distractions or simulation.”
I’m not going to tell people to take melatonin or wear sleep masks or stop exercising 3 hours before bedtime because there seems to be some confusion about chronic vs. episodic sleep conditions and how they are treated.
I’m describing pallative care for an incurable issue that I’ve had professionally treated since Bill Clinton was president. You are describing a sleep schedule that can apparently be resolved by half a dose of melatonin.
So maybe this is less “tips on how to go to bed at a normal person time” and more “tips on how to survive when you don’t sleep like a normal person because of a condition that is fundamentally inseparable from you as a person”
When your sleep is as fucked as mine your choices are to limit harm by getting what sleep you can or improving the sleep you get OR finding a job that lets you be your full nocturnal self.
By managing to roll my sleep schedule back more than 2 hours I’m actually doing *incredibly* well. That is above and beyond what sleep experts expect to achieve for patients with DSPD. A 10pm bedtime is impossible for me and disappointing and disheartening to try to achieve. A 2am bedtime is a vast improvement to my quality of life and has excited and pleased my doctors to the point that my psychiatrist asked me if I had any advice i could share with his other ADHD patients.
AND I DID IT BY LETTING MYSELF FALL ASLEEP WITH MY PHONE IN MY HAND.
Or: how i leaned to stop worrying and love the blue glow.
HAVE A NICE NIGHT. I HOPE EVERYONE READING THIS SLEEPS WELL.
Your issues are not representative for all people with ADHD, and they are absolutely not answering the questions people have on how to get a normal sleep schedule. Your tips will never work for me, someone with ADHD and have sleep issues. And it probably won’t work for someone who’s asking about getting a normal sleep schedule either. So I don’t see why you’re getting so worked up about it. You are literally just describing your own issues with sleep and expects it to work on everyone else. People are not in the same situation as you are, and therefore your personal method won’t work for everyone. And also, it is about understanding of time because people with ADHD don’t. We have no sense of time at all. Also, schedules works. We set our bodies at a specific time to go to bed. The reason you fall asleep at 2 am is because that’s the time your body is used to falling asleep at. If you would train your body to go to sleep at 12 pm, then that’s the time you get sleepy and falls asleep. Also, half a melatonin helps with the sleep hormones kicking in earlier in the evening, making you more tired when you’re “supposed” to go to sleep. It also work for jet lag as well. It’s not just some bogus, a sleep therapist recommended it to me. Reading works for many people, especially when it’s a boring book. I read Les Miserable at nights when I can’t sleep because the book is so awfully boring and trying to enjoy it makes me tired. Doing boring things and pushing yourself to do “tiring things” gets you tired, surprisingly enough. I’ve noticed that as a person with ADHD that I get tired the moment I do something that requires me to put energy and time into something. Which causes me to take naps, which delays my sleep even further. Naps are good, but only if they are 20-40 minutes. When I get tired enough I sleep for three hours and then I can’t sleep during night instead. Great tips, right. And I also don’t know how you can recommend not turning off your phone when blue light literally tricks your brain into thinking it’s still day. If it works for you, then great, but no sleep therapists recommends it.
And then again with the “you should pursuit a career where you can continue with your sleep pattern” ignoring completely that people don’t have that privilege or opportunity at all. I can’t pursue such a career. It’s impossible for me, and many others. It’s also impossible for those still in school. They need help to fix their sleep so they can function at their work and at their school and your tips are not helping them.
The question that spurred this was “is there an option between ‘sleep till noon’ and ‘you’re just fucked, deal with it’?” and my tips all applied to that question ALONG with the recommendation that someone look for other work.
(I’ve got no advice for parents with children who have normal hours; no idea how you do it.)
They weren’t asking for a *normal* sleep schedule, they were asking for an IMPROVED sleep schedule. You know that perfectionism thing I mentioned? You’re doing that. You’re saying “if you’re not aiming for normal then why even bother.” Don’t Let Perfect Be the Enemy of Good.
Also I am clearly not expecting it to work on everybody else; I say things like “Try X” and “give this a shot” - and I also told you I’m glad you found something that works for you but you’re telling me “just take half a dose of melatonin and train your body to sleep at 12 instead of 2″ like your tips will work for me.
ALSO YES THAT’S WHAT WE’RE SAYING. NO SLEEP THERAPIST RECOMMENDS THESE THINGS BUT THESE THINGS WORK VERY VERY VERY WELL FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE WITH ADHD. WE ARE SAYING “A LOT OF PEOPLE WITH ADHD ARE NOT HELPED BY STANDARD SLEEP ADVICE” so, YES, blue light tricks your brain into thinking it’s still daylight. As it turns out, for a lot of people with ADHD that is WAY less important than doing something until they fall asleep.
We’re going to have a talk about the disability model of disease and why it’s important not to dismiss someone saying “here are a bunch of tips that worked for me” and a bunch of people saying “WOW, I have that ADHD and that sounds EXACTLY like me.”
So, NO, I am not describing only my problems and I am not going to bed at 2am because my body is used to it, Delayed Sleep Phase Disorder is an actual, studied condition that happens to be present in a MUCH higher percentage of people with ADHD than in the general population.
Look you can do a wikipedia about it:
This is a significant, serious physical condition and most people with this condition have been told, over and over like you’re doing now, that they’re just not trying hard enough or that they’re doing something wrong or that basically it’s their fault for not sleeping right.
And that’s what you’re saying. “It’s your fault for not sleeping right.”
And what I am saying is “A LOT OF PEOPLE WITH ADHD HAVE THIS SERIOUS SLEEP CONDITION THAT CANNOT BE EFFECTIVELY TREATED WITH STANDARD SLEEP HYGIENE AND IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO COPE WITH IT IF YOU HAVE IT”
Here, let’s do more Wikipedia:
Rehabilitation for DSPD patients includes acceptance of the condition and choosing a career that allows late sleeping times or running a home business with flexible hours. In a few schools and universities, students with DSPD have been able to arrange to take exams at times of day when their concentration levels may be good.
Patients suffering from SWSD disability should be encouraged to accept the fact that they suffer from a permanent disability, and that their quality of life can only be improved if they are willing to undergo rehabilitation. It is imperative that physicians recognize the medical condition of SWSD disability in their patients and bring it to the notice of the public institutions responsible for vocational and social rehabilitation.
In the United States, the Americans with Disabilities Act requires that employers make reasonable accommodations for employees with sleeping disorders. In the case of DSPD, this may require that the employer accommodate later working hours for jobs normally performed on a “9 to 5” work schedule. The statute defines “disability” as a “physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more major life activities”, and Section 12102(2)(a) itemizes sleeping as a “major life activity”.
I’m sorry that you’ve apparently signed a contract and locked yourself in a career that means you’ll never be able to look for any other kind of work than the work that you’re currently doing but *literally* the only advice I gave students was “SEE IF YOU CAN TALK TO A DISABILITY COUNSELOR AT YOUR SCHOOL BECAUSE THIS IS A DISABILITY.”
(I’m also sorry that you seem to legitimately believe that career changes aren’t possible for a lot of people. Like. You are a clever and talented human being who can learn new skills and absorb new information. I believe in you.)
I’m *aware* that students are fucked by this. I think it is WRONG that they are forced to comply with an unnatural-to-them sleep schedule that can cause injury or increase suicidality.
But I’m sitting here saying “If you’ve got a broken spine you probably need to reconsider whether you’re going to be able to work as a barista; lifting things is difficult for people with broken spines and if you have the opportunity to look for a job that doesn’t require lifting or standing constantly it will improve your quality of life and is a significant benefit”
and you’re going “Well SOME people with broken spines don’t have the PRIVILEGE of looking for other work, they should just do what I did for my sprained ankle and wrap their spine in a bandage until it feels better.”
Someone working as a barista with a broken spine is obviously impaired and disabled, they are literally not able to do their work. Somebody with a broken spine working in an office might not seem disabled at all, their injury likely doesn’t have any impact on their work. Someone who uses a wheelchair might have a lot of trouble living in a building with 10 flights of stairs; that same person is going to have less trouble if they’re living in a building with ramps and elevators.
“Normal” sleeping hours are heavily reinforced by society and having a sleep schedule outside of those hours is pretty heavily punished and definitely ridiculed and dismissed as laziness (like you’re doing now).
But if we accept that some people don’t sleep during “normal” hours and look for ways to accommodate them then everyone benefits.
And from me and everyone else with circadian sleep disorders in the notes here: Stop Telling Me That My Disabling Chronic Condition That Is Common In People With ADHD Is An Inconvenient Problem That Should Be Solved By Hard Work And Gumption By Recommending Solutions That The Original Post Listed As Ineffective For Their Brand Of ADHD.
I don’t know why you’re getting this riled up about this, but damn. It’s as if you talk to someone who has no idea how ADHD works. I know, because I have ADHD. And your tips are not applicable for people in my current situation, and to those who maybe cannot give up a career just so they can go to bed whenever their executive function allows them to. I cannot go to bed at 4 am when I have school at 8.30 am, and no matter how much I talk to my counsellor that’s not going to change. My classes starts at that time and I cannot do shit about it. Therefore your advice just isn’t applicable to me and many others in my situation. We need to sleep a certain amount of hours so we can do well in school.
Also, ADHD is not considered a disability in my country. I don’t get aid or certain accommodations for disability because I have ADHD, so that’s also out of the question. Schools and working places don’t have to give me accommodation unless I struggle super hard in performing, which I unfortunately don’t. So no, I cannot just get disability accommodation when ADHD is not even considered a disability. And the comparison to people wheelchairs and broken spines are just low. You have a “disability” but you’re not impaired physically in any way, and getting a “normal” sleep schedule isn’t impossible with the right measures. Of course someone in a wheel chair cannot be at a construction site, but someone with ADHD can work at one if they get their sleep schedule fixed. And your advice just won’t help that. I, and many others, don’t want to have to choose careers that matches our sleep schedule just because we have ADHD. We want to be able to pursue the career we want regardless, and thus wanting advice on how to make their sleep work. The question was literally SLEEP ADVICE FOR THOSE WHO CANNOT GET A JOB IN THE MIDDLE OF THE DAY, and you just said “don’t get such a job” as if people are able to choose their careers at all times. That’s incredibly tone deaf, and it’s not answering to their question. You just answered with what works for you. And even if many other with ADHD can relate to you doesn’t mean all of us will. Your advice won’t work for me, and I said that and proposed things that works better for me so people can try it and see if it works for them. And you just got all defensive just because I said your tips doesn’t work or is applicable to the question that’s asked.
Also, it’s so ironic when you talk to me as if I’m a neurotypical despite having ADHD myself and struggles with sleep. It seems as if someone cannot deal with the fact that everyone with ADHD just doesn’t function the exact same. I cannot take your advice because they won’t work for me. And if that’s an issue with you, too bad.
You talk about it like I didn’t suffer through every year of my primary education on 5 or fewer hours of sleep per night with a misdiagnosis of insomnia and a strict schedule of going to my bedroom at 8PM, turning all the lights off, and promptly staring at the ceiling until 2-3am.
I’m so glad you brought up the broken spine thing and called it low because the barista with the broken spine was me, and LITERALLY working as a barista with a broken spine was less of an issue than trying to treat DSPD.
It sucks that you live in a country that doesn’t recognize ADHD as a disability because it SUPER DUPER is but I never told you to do what works for me, I told you to stop telling people that the only thing that works is a bunch of things that they’ve already tried that do not work and to stop dismissing people saying “it is impossible for me to go to sleep before 3am even with good sleep hygiene; what do I do?”
And my response to someone saying “sleeping till noon isn’t an option” was to provide a bunch of tips that help me to not sleep till noon PAIRED with the recommendation that people who have this problem might want to consider other options.
You keep saying “some of us WANT” a normal sleep schedule and “some of us WANT” to work in daytime careers and, look, I wanted to continue working as a barista but I could not physically do it.
I am telling you: Many people who have ADHD also have a comorbid issue called Delayed Sleep Phase Disorder, many people with ADHD are not aware of that and will try unsuccessfully, for decades, with medical supervision, to create a “normal” sleep schedule but they are physically incapable of doing so without external monitoring and live-in aids; they are physically prevented from doing so by chemicals in their brains and no amount of wishing they were able to sleep normally will make it happen. People who attempt to treat this without recognizing that it is incurable and harm reduction is the best they can hope for frequently get extremely depressed or become reliant on addictive sleep aids.
You are saying “nuh-uh, that isn’t real you’re just lazy, you could fix it if you really wanted to” and I’m telling you that is exactly what NT folks tell ADHD folks.
I, and many others, don’t want to have to choose careers that matches our sleep schedule just because we have ADHD. We want to be able to pursue the career we want regardless, and thus wanting advice on how to make their sleep work.
I’m sure you don’t want to have to choose careers that don’t have a lot of task switching, don’t require uninterrupted focus on boring things, or provide a constant high level of stimulation either but those are things that are important to consider when you’re looking for work because it’s important to consider the symptoms of your condition when you’re looking for work.
Something that requires high attention to detail is not going to be a good match for people with inattentive ADHD. Something that requires long stretches of repetitive, boring actions is not going to be a good match for people with hyperactive ADHD. Something that requires you to wake up early every day is not going to be a good match for ADHD folks with DSPD.
Them’s the breaks, kid. Sometimes disabilities take your choices away.
“Look for work that it suited to the symptoms of your disability” is completely uncontroversial advice that nonetheless is not frequently offered to people with ADHD and its attendant sleep issues.
And the reason I’m getting riled up is because you keep saying “your disorder isn’t a disorder, you could fix it if you tried” when I am repeatedly explaining that this is a well-studied chronic condition that is considered a disability requiring accommodations in a lot of countries and if your country doesn’t consider ADHD or DSPD a disability then your country is straight-up wrong and coming on to an ADHD post to dismiss other people’s ADHD-related disabilities as laziness or refusal to make an effort is an extremely neurotypical move even if you DO have ADHD (’round these parts we call that “internalized ableism”).
