A Fic Pet Peeve as a Chinese Person
MDZS fic writers, please stop changing Jiang YanLiâs name to âJin YanLiâ just cuz she got married to peacock golden boy. Even back in Old China, if you and your partner were (essentially) of equal status, you never change your family name to that of your spouseâs, even as a woman. The concept of âmaiden names that are automatically changed upon marriageâ isnât really a thing. If a name change happens, itâs because an individual specifically chooses to take on the name formally (or forced to cuz of whatever nonsense reason). Still, itâs more common for name changes to happen by adoption rather than marriage.
In the case of Jiang YanLi marrying into the Jin Sect, her title is now (Young) Madam Jin, but her name is still Jiang YanLi. In her motherâs case, her name being Yu ZiYuan isnât a big deal, itâs normal. It was the fact that she was referred to, as a title, as Madam Yu, despite being the Madam of the Jiang Sect, which suggested she took pride in her birth family roots over her marriage into the Jiang Sect. So, please, if you want to call her Jin YanLi please at least put in like one line of her wanting to take on the married name instead of her family name.
Anyways I just needed to get this off my chest âkay thanks bye
I second this!!! I think this last name thing is really non-intuitive to someone not used to the way Chinese titles work and how itâs recorded. And also the fact that for majority of Chinese history marriage was polygamous and so womenâs last name were used to differentiate the wives of one husband.
(I think even the original MDZS text gets it wrong sometimes.)
(thereâs also the variation that comes with different dynastiesâŠbut we wonât go there)
1. The Lady of the House
So âfu'renâ 怫äșș is the equivalent of âLadyâ, and (for the most part) this is ONLY used for the main wife of a man, the 抻 âQiâ. Therefore, Yu Ziyuan, the wife of Jiang Fengmian should be Lady Jiang or æ±ć€«äșș âjiang-fu'renâ. Sometimes to introduce the wife to someone whoâs never met her, we can also include her last name in the introduction. For example, èżäœæŻæ±ć€«äșșäœæ°ăâThis is Jiang fuâren, of Yu-shiâ.Â
The word âshiâ æ° means âclanâ. It is considered sometimes to be impolite for a stranger to know the actual ânameâ of a woman if he is not her family or close assoicate. This rule is not followed in most wuxia stories and fictional works, but it is in history. So to track which family wives are from, their maiden last name is always kept. The âshiâ of a woman is never changed after marriage because wellâŠyou canât change which family youâre born in.Â
The story refers to Yu Ziyuan as Yu-fuâren. This is literally a mistake. >_>
A married women may be referred by both the âshiâ of her husband and her father. So in the case of Yu Ziyuan, in a legal document (if she was ever likeâŠidk summoned in court or something) she will referred to as âJiang-Yu shiâ.Â
Now, for Jiang Yanli, because Jin Zixuanâs mother was still alive and the head of the family is Jin Guangshan at the time Zixuan and Yanli got married, technically Jin Zixuanâs mother is âJin fuârenâ, and Yanli should be referred to as âshao fuârenâ. ć° âshaoâ means âyoungerâ. So âLady Jiang the youngerâ is essentially what that means, indicating that Jiang Yanli is the wife of the son of the family. Â
Addendum: In certain dynasty, the term âda niang-ziâ 性ćšć is also used to describe the wife. In which case, her own maiden name would be used. So this might be why Yu Ziyuan is called Madam Yu. Because if sheâd been born in letâs say the Song dynasty, she could be called äœć€§ćšć âyu-daâniangâziâ. Regardless of that, she should still be æ±ć€«äșș Jiang fuâren.  Â
2. The other non-wives and the use of last namesÂ
The above described in #1 is referring to the legal wife of a man. Even in polygamous China, every man only has 1 wife. The rest of the women he marries are not wives. The term used for them is ćŠŸ âqieâ. Because a man can have as many non-wives are he can afford (ugh), you have to differentiate them somehow. If the husbandâs last name was Li, for example, it would be wrong to call the concubines âLi fuârenâ. Depending on the dynasty, terms like âxiao-niangâ ć°ćš, âtai-taiâ ć€Șć€Ș are used. So a concubine with the last name Cheng, married to a man with the last name Li, would be referred to as âCheng-xiaoâniang of the Li family.â Â
When in doubt, as in you see a man with a woman who is definitely his spouse but not sure if sheâs wife or concubine, you should always assume the woman is the wife until corrected or told otherwise. So you may see a inn keeper refer to a concubine as âfuârenâ out of respect. Â
Sometimes, to show respect to a concubine, you can refer to them as âfuârenâ as well but with a number attached. For example if concubine Cheng was ranked number two in her husbandâs household, she could be referred to as âLi-er-fuârenâ æćź¶äș怫äșș or just äș怫äșș âer-fuârenâ, meaning sheâs the second woman her husband married.Â
3. The term âfuârenâ used as âMrs.âÂ
The term âfuârenâ can be used generally to refer to any woman who is married. It would be impolite to refer to a woman as âguâniangâ, because âguâniangâ means Miss, an unmarried female. In a context where you donât know who the womanâs husband is, or her rank in the family, a married woman should be addressed by strangers, workers, salesperson, doctors, as âfuârenâ.Â
And how do you know if a womanâs married? From her hair. A married womanâs hair should be dressed up in an updo. Low-dos are reserved for maidens. The fact that Jiang Yanliâs hair didnât change pre and post marriage is historical inaccuracy.Â
But this is wuxia, a fantasy drama, so the rules are a bit lax.Â
4. Royal titles.Â
The above refers to nobles or commoners. Royals have their own set of titles and depending on the dynasty, that shit gets real complicated, so the titles of the wives of emperors and dukes and such weâre not gonna talk about because itâs irrelevant to CQL.Â
(I was trying to edit this but I accidentally deleted it my apologies)
Anyways, again, thanks for expanding on this. I didnât know most of this information and Iâll be keeping this post for future reference.
Btw, I donât mean to come off as rude or anything, but I would like to point out you used the wrong character for Yu ZiYuanâs name. She uses è, not äœ.
Oh shoot. Yeah thatâs my bad! Thanks for letting me know.
Also I realized I made a typo above. Jiang Yanliâs title should be Lady Jin the younger éćź¶ć°ć€«äșșă
(and while iâm at it, i apologize for stealing your post and adding a bit more info)Â
5. Class division, age division and the use of titles
Because in Chinese thereâs no universal âmaâamâ that we can apply to every woman⊠Things get complicated.
âguâniangâ or âMissâ, is an entirely appropriate title to apply to any unmarried young woman of most social class (except for maybe princesses and duchesses). When in doubt of a womanâs marital status and if she is relatively young, the default is to assume she is unmarried, and use âguâniangâ. (Of course, if it is known that she is married and you still use guâniang, it would be seen as an offence as stated in 3, except for some very particular cases.)Â
So if Jiang Yanli is walking down the street and trips, and a strange who has no idea who she is tried to help her, they will call her guâniang, because it is not obvious from way she looks that she is married.Â
Now if her hair is in an up-do and the person suspects she is married, they will refer to her differently depending if Jiang Yanli is a) dressed as a peasant or as nobility/wealthy person, and b) if the person is older or younger than her:Â
If Yanli looks rich/noble/well-to-do -> default to âfuârenâ. Thatâs totally a-okay for literally everyone to use.
If she looks poor/peasant, AND if the speaker is someone younger and/or same generation as her, it is okay to call her â性ć«â daâsao or â性ć§â daâjie. Daâsao = wife of a older brother, and daâjie = older sister. If the stranger is kind of the same age and itâs hard to tell whoâs younger and whoâs older, give the person youâre speaking to the seniority as a sign of respect until further information is given.Â
If she looks poor/peasant, and the person talking to her is WAY older than her, like an uncle or a grandma, then it is STILL OKAY to call her âguâniangâ, even if she is married.Â
However, if the woman you encounter is older, as in way past the age that ancient society expected a woman to be married (like clearly could be someoneâs mom or grandma) how you address her will depend on her social status.Â
If she looks rich/noble/well-to-do -> default to âfuârenâ or âliao-fuârenâ if she looks elderly.Â
If she looks poor/peasant, she can be addressed as Sister (性ć«ïŒ 性ć§), Auntie (i.e. 性ćŠïŒć€§ć©¶ïŒć€§ćšïŒor Grandma (éżć©ïŒć„¶ć„¶ïŒć©ć©) depending her age and the age of the speaker. It is very weird to call a peasant woman âfuârenâ, because the term fuâren implies a certain social status and/or education level.Â
When titles like âguâniangâ, sister, auntie or grandma is use, the womanâs own last name should be used in conjunction, not the last name of her husband.   Â
@tofixit Consider the post hijacking fully forgiven because Iâm Chinese and I didnât know a lot of this (I didnât live in China most of my life, I lived in Singapore, so I didnât learn this stuff and was also busy with Japanese and other things LMAO), so youâre giving me some new knowledge about my heritage! So thanks! Didnât expect my complaining about maiden names to come to this but Iâm enjoying it lol
A lot of nuances I only catch when theyâre absent (in the translation). But then, Iâm still back on the recent oddity of translating âyoung masterâ as âchildeâ, an incredibly archaic form of address. âMasterâ is still an english form of address (though somewhat formal and out-of-favor these days) for a young man under the age of 18 (basically, just to differentiate that âmisterâ is anyone over 18).Â
I can roll with âsecond young masterâ as easily as I can âthird uncleâ or âsenior sisterâ â these may not be arranged in a way weâre used to in english, but they are all using common english words and therefore we can suss out the meaning when reading at subtitle-speed. but if the translation introduces a term thatâs just as unfamiliar as the foreign word itâs purporting to translate, then imo itâs a translation fail.Â
*pokes head in* This is all really cool information that I also didnât know and really appreciate!
@drwcn I did want to say a small thing in defense of MXTX re: Yu-fuâren (also not intended to be rude!! youâre right that mdzs plays pretty fast and loose with titles, names, historical details etc. ><) but in the case of referring to her as Yu-fuâren instead of Jiang-fuâren, I do think that mxtx knew that was incorrect. In chapter 51, it says, âè怫äșșć°±æŻæ±æŸçæŻäșČïŒè玫鞹ăćœç¶ïŒäčæŻæ±æ«ç ç怫äșșïŒćœćèżæŸæŻä»çćäżźăç §çèŻŽïŒćșèŻ„ć«ć„迱〫äșșïŒćŻäžç„éäžșä»äčïŒææäșșäžçŽéœæŻć«ć„čè怫äșșăæäșșçæŻäžæŻè怫äșșæ§æ ŒćŒșćżïŒäžćć 怫ć§ăćŻčæ€ïŒć€«ćŠäșäșșäčćč¶æ ćŒèźźăâ
loose tl for those who canât read it (my sympathies, i too am struggling), âYu-fuâren was Jiang Chengâs mother, Yu Ziyuan. Of course, she was also Jiang Fengmianâs wife [fuâren], and once cultivated with him as well. By all reason, she should be called Jiang-fuâren, but for some unknown reason, everyone had always called her Yu-fuâren. Some guessed that perhaps because Yu-fuâren had a forceful temperament, she disliked taking her husbandâs name. Neither husband nor wife raised any objections to this.â (sorry this is clunky im v tired)
So it is a mistake, but an intentional one, I think! With regards to everything else though, I have almost zero expertise in the subject, and Iâm grateful for the commentary!
(we can all agree on childe tho because D: itâs also strange because itâs such an english-specific word with english culture-specific connotations?? why)
















