Material girl

[beaulesbian]

The Duffers 'nerdiest commencement speech ever' at their uni - a transcript (from here. 30min mark to - 50min in the vid)

[Matt]: 

Thank you, president Parlow and the entire faculty for this incredible honor and for inviting us here to speak today.

And a special shoutout to our favorite professor, Michael Kowalski (?) associate dean now, who once told us that the script for the first student film was thematically incoherent. [chuckles] He was right, by the way. 

And to the class of ‘26 and your families - congratulations! You did it! 

[applause]

[Ross]: 

We did it once, too, many moons ago. We graduated from Chapman and Dodge College back in 2007. 

To put that into perspective - we were printing out map quests for directions, Netflix was mailing out DVDs in little red envelopes, and the Sopranos finale had just cut to black and people thought their power was cut out. 

It feels like a lifetime ago, but we still of course remember being you, we remember feeling excited about the next chapter. But we also remember being scared. Scared of stepping off this campus and into a world that felt pretty uncertain. 

But you guys are lucky, because thanks to the hard work of our generation, you’re gonna step off this campus into a far more stable and certain world. 

[laughter from audience, Matt giving up sarcastic thumbs up, patting himself on shoulder]

[Ross]: 

That’s a joke. It’s a joke! It’s a joke, obviously, our generation screwed things up for you. I mean not us specifically, we were just making a TV show. But, still, on behalf of our generation - we are sorry. Deeply sorry.

[Matt]: 

Deeply sorry. 

We decided to make up for this by writing what is going to be a life-changing speech, but then we watched a bunch of life-changing speeches and it frankly made us feel inadequate. 

Because no matter how hard we try, we’ll never be as wise as Steve Jobs or profound as David Foster Wallace, we won’t. 

But that’s fine, we realized, because those speeches are available for free for you to watch on Youtube. They’re good, you should watch them.

So we scrapped the dream of writing something life-changing and set a new, far more achievable goal: to write the nerdiest commencement speech of all time. That’s our goal.

[Ross]: 

That’s right. 

[applause]

[Ross]: 

Which brings us to our nerdy TV show, Stranger Things. [cheering from audience] Thank you. If you haven’t seen it - it’s a coming of age story set in the 1980s. 

Over the course of the show the kids have to overcome a lot of stuff - bullies, puberty, monsters from other dimensions. 

And the kids name these monsters after villains from Dungeons & Dragons - Demogorgon, Mind Flayer, Vecna. While obviously fictional, each monster represents real fears we face growing up. Fears that we had to overcome as kids and teens. 

[Matt]: 

There will never be Stranger Things 6. Sorry, Netflix. I know. But for a minute we’re gonna pretend there is, okay? 

So, our characters have graduated, they placed their D&D binders back onto the shelf, and they’ve left Hawkins for good, okay?

And we’re gonna talk about the three biggest monsters that we bring into this new season. Monsters that would represent the scariest things that we face in adulthood. And then we’ll be your Monster Manual, or as best to our abilities, and tell you everything we know about them and the best tools that we found to chop off their heads. 

[Ross]: 

Alright, here we go. So the first monster is called the Mimic, it’s a tricky little bastard, because a Mimic doesn’t appear as a monster, it disguises itself as the thing you most desire. 

So in the world of D&D that’s usually like a treasure chest. So you race up to the chest, you’re excited about the gold, the armor you’re gonna find inside. You rub your hands together like Indiana Jones, you reach out and you reach for the treasure, but then it glues itself to you, you can’t move and then the treasure chest opens up, flashing razor sharp teeth and then it eats you. Which sucks. 

But what sucks more is: you’re gonna run into many Mimics as you make your way through life. Things that look like things you desperately want, things you’re convinced hold the answers, but when you reach out for them, they hurt you. They won’t literally eat you, hopefully, but you get the point. It’s not a subtle metaphor.  

[Matt]: 

And some Mimics hurt more than others.

Back in 2003 we lived in Durham, North Carolina, and we had this dream of making movies in Hollywood. And most people thought our dream was impossible. We got a lot of pats on the back, some condescending smiles, “That’s cute, kid.” 

But we had a plan to achieve our impossible dream. We were gonna go pack our bags, hit out to California, and attend a famous, prestigious film school with a history of alums that went on to achieve major success. Alums like Ron Howard, Robert Zemeckis, and George Lucas. Yes, I’m talking about USC [School of Cinematic Arts in California] 

[crowd booing]

[Matt]: 

And they rejected us! They rejected us, we didn’t even make the waitlist, okay? And it hurt, it hurt really bad. It made us feel like we weren’t good enough. That maybe those naysayers back home were right. 

[Ross]: 

And later on we wrote so many screenplays that we were positive would sell, and each one got the same response - No, no, no. We pitched our hearts out to board executives, who looked like they wanted to be anywhere else. 

The Stranger Things pilot - the very one you see on screen - was rejected by twelve different studios, but then finally one studio liked the script and they wanted to finance it, the only problem is they weren’t sure about us directing it. 

So they asked to watch a little film we made, called Hidden - a film we were really proud of. We gave it to them, they watched it, and then they said “Yeah, no, you can’t direct.” So it was another “No”, another bite. That one really hurt. 

[Matt]: 

And you know, sometimes it’s not about reaching for success. Sometimes it’s about reaching for someone’s love, reaching for someone’s approval, for connection. And you’ll frequently get bitten. 

And every time it happens, it makes you want to curl up into a ball and cry. And it makes you want to stop reaching out. 

But here’s the thing about the Mimic: It has a challenge rating of 2, out of 30! So it’s kind of a wimpy villain. But it’s still super dangerous, not because it’s gonna kill you, but because it makes you afraid to open the next chest. 

[Ross]: 

And some of those chests, they do have gold in them.

After we were rejected by USC we heard about a smaller, lesser known film school in Orange County called Chapman University. 

[cheering]

[Ross]: 

And Chapman not only let us in, they were excited to have us, and our experience here changed our lives. And when the studio told us we couldn’t direct Stranger Things, we walked away. Four days later, Netflix came knocking. 

We can’t promise you the next chest you open will be gold, or that it’ll be Chapman or Stranger Things, but we can promise you this: If you stop opening them, you’ll never find out.

[Matt]: 

Okay, that’s number one. Right. It gets increasingly difficult, okay? So, that’s easy. 

The second monster we’re gonna talk about has a challenge rating of 2 also, but don’t be fooled - this is the most dangerous CR2 monster in the Monster Manual. It’s called the Will-o’-Wisp, okay? 

So, as you’re wandering around the dungeon, you’re getting bitten by these nasty Mimics, you’re also going to get lost. It’s a maze, afterall, and there are no sign posts telling you where to go. 

So you look around. You see spikes to your left, scattering of bones to your right, wet gurgling noises behind you, and none of this looks good. 

But then you see a hazy, beautiful, blue-green flame dancing in the distance. This is the Will-o’-Wisp. Its light illuminates a clear, safe path forward. So naturally you go that way. 

Turns out - it’s not a real path. It tricked you! The Will-o’-Wisp tricked you. And you drown or you fall into the pit of spikes, or you step onto an oddly aggressive frog. 

That’s why the Wisp is dangerous - because it doesn’t try to kill you, it just leads you somewhere that will. So why’d you follow the light? Because you could see the damn path! It was safe, the least risky, or it seemed like it.  

Something we’ve learnt the hard way is that the safest looking path is often the most dangerous one. 

[Ross]: 

So remember when I told you about all those rejected pitches and scripts, well that was the fault of the Will-o’-Wisp. 

You see every producer we’ve met told us the same thing. They all wanted, this was a while ago, they wanted found footage movie, like paranormal activity. So this was the life for us, the shortcut to our dreams, and we diligently set to work on writing a found footage script. 

But there was one problem - we didn’t really like found footage movies. But we kept trying anyway, and trying and trying. 

And years later we had a script that didn’t work, we had serious credit card debt, and growing doubt  [audio cuts off for a few seconds] … 

We remember the phone call from our parents. They’d always been supportive of us, and they still were, but for the first time we detected real worry in their voices. It was clear, the realities of life were catching up to our dreams. If you can’t pay rent, well, maybe you have to come back home. 

[Matt]: 

Something about that phone call snapped us out of our daze. So we threw out our found footage script, made a hard pivot, and quickly wrote a script about something we love. And it wasn’t at all what the producers were looking for, but it was something that we, you know, we truly loved and related to. And guess what - the script sold. 

At long last, we’ve made it out of the marsh. Years later when we came up with the idea for Stranger Things, we were told that it, too, would never sell. A period piece starring kids, that is not made for kids? Are you out of your f- mind? God, I’m struggling not to curse. At the same time,

[laughter]

you can fill it in. 

At the same time we were offered a safe, cushy job to write a TV show for a big network. There it was again - the blue-grey-green flame, glowing, tempting, safe. 

But we gave the Will-o’-Wisp the middle finger, hold up in our small apartment, and wrote Stranger Things. And guess what - those two things that we were told were major liabilities, the period piece 1980s setting and the kids? Those were exactly what made the show successful. 

[Ross]: 

In D&D the official tactic for fighting a Will-o’-Wisp is simple: ignore it. That’s it. But easier said than done. ‘Cause we followed the Will-o’-Wisp many other times over the years. 

Sometimes it’s a career move, sometimes it’s a creative decision. Sometimes it’s more personal, involving a significant-- a relationship with a friend or a significant other. Sometimes we’d recognize we’re on the wrong path very quickly, sometimes it’d take months, and sometimes years. 

And the longer you’re on the wrong path, the harder it is to get off it, because it means doing something hard, which is admitting that you’ve made a mistake. 

[Matt]: 

The best way to avoid the Will-o’-Wisp is to listen to the voice deep inside you. If you wake up in the middle of the night, or when you’re showering in the morning and something just feels off, trust that above all else. 

And to the parents out there, who might be worrying right now, like ours did on that phone call - you’re not wrong. 

We all know that sometimes taking a risk doesn’t pay off. Sometimes you fall into the spikes, or you step onto that angry frog. They’re called risks for a reason. 

But to the graduates - we promise, if you take a risk and fail, it won’t destroy you. You will recover. But what can destroy you, what you end up regretting? Is taking no risks at all. That’s what the Will-o’-Wisp counts on. Not to dramatic failure, the slow drowning. So don’t fall for that. 

[clapping]

[Ross]: 

Alright, we got one more monster. This is it, this is the final boss. You might want to hold onto your caps, because - spoiler alert - this baddie is a CR (challenge rating) of 14 and it’s getting stronger every day. It’s called the Elder Brain. 

It’s basically a giant brain floating in a vat of liquid, it’s pretty gross, but it’s not super intimidating at first. But here’s the thing: it’s not a single brain, it’s actually a soup made of hundreds of brains, liquified together into a single consciousness. 

Every mind that has ever lived in this world has been absorbed into it. The individuals are gone. What remains is an average. It’s the annihilation of the self. 

[Matt]: 

We’ve been fighting the Elder Brain our whole lives. 

It started pretty much as soon as we were conceived, actually. See, we were created out of the same egg, and just split into two. We’re twins, identical ones. And that one feature most defined our childhood.

Back in the 90s being a twin was pretty rare and we were the only ones at our school, and for the longest time we hated it. We were introverted and shy, and being an identical twin tends to attract attention.

Strangers would stare at us at the supermarket; worse, sometimes they would come up to speak to us, “If you’re punched in the shoulder, does he feel it?” No. [chuckles] No. “I don’t feel it, you idiot.”

All we wanted to do was fit in. We wanted to be just like everybody else. We wanted to join the Elder Brain. 

[Ross]: 

It took us a long time to realize that the parts of us we wanted to erase were in fact the most important parts to preserve. 

Because they allowed us to experience the world in a different way than other people. To develop into unique individuals, it allowed us to tell stories specific to us and share this with the world. 

So the more we leaned into what made us different, the more we rejected the call of the Elder Brain, the more successful and happier we became. 

Now, it’d be naïve of us to say your fight with the Elder Brain will be like ours. It’ll be harder, much harder, because the world today is very different now than it was in 2007. 

Shortly after we graduated, IPhone came out, then social media surged, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, Tiktok. It all seemed so innocuous at first, not anymore. 

And now there’s something else that all this is getting mapped onto - that dreaded two-letter acronym that’s getting boo-ed at every commencement speech across the country, AI. 

[crowd booing]

[Matt]: 

Okay, to return to the beginning of the speech. This area is where our generation really and truly screwed things up for you, because the machines, the feeds and the algorithms and the models control what you see and hear, feeding you the same crap that you guys call the slop. 

Like the broadest possible stuff. Anything that’s weird or different or challenging or that, god forbid, might take a little bit of time to sink in, that surprising stuff that helped shape you into a unique individual, that goes out the window. 

Your brains, our brains, are all being liquified and fed into the vat and it sucks. 

So, how do you avoid brain liquification? I’m not talking 20 years ago, I’m talking now. 

The truth is: we’re not sure. Anyone who says they are, is a charlatan, okay? 

And honestly a lot of this is gonna fall on you to figure out, which is not fair, but it’s just the truth. But we think that, while the stakes are so much higher now, some of what we’ve learnt applies growing up. 

You have to refuse the average. You have to be yourself. And that involves being vulnerable, and letting your freak flag fly. 

[crowd applause]

[Ross]: 

But the trap, right? Is that the more vulnerable you are, the higher is the risk of embarrassment - being called lame, a loser, cringe. 

Matt and I, if you can believe it, have been called all those things and worse by thousands and thousands of people, and it always hurts, always. And the natural instinct is to recoil, to stop putting yourself out there, to self-censor, to throw yourself into the Brain vat. 

But you can’t. Because the vat can make infinite versions of almost anything, with zero risk to itself. 

But there’s one thing it can never make: It can never make you. The specific, weird, messy, embarrassing, cringe, one of a kind you.  

The average can never be an individual. Because of that your individuality is the most valuable thing you’ll ever own. Don’t you dare flatten it. 

[crowd applause]

[Matt]: 

I agree. There are of course a lot more monsters out there, because the world is changing so fast, you’re gonna encounter ones that we never did. It’s going to be scary, hard and upsetting, but just like a game of D&D it can also be fun and rewarding - we don’t want to be too depressing. And, you know, to meet these challenges head on and conquer them. 

And you don’t have to do it alone. In fact, you really shouldn’t. You need a party. 

And maybe this party is made up of a boyfriend or a girlfriend, or a family that came to see you today, or maybe all of the above. The friends you made here at Chapman, right? 

Whoever it is, you’re gonna need them, because everyone has their own unique strengths.

[Ross]: 

Like maybe your companion’s a halfling, like a tiny human, and you reach a gate but it’s locked and there’s no way in, until you see a small hole and only they can fit through it. So they crawl through the hole, they pull a lever, the gate swings open and you’re in. 

Or maybe you’re the halfling, and someone else is in your party, the warrior who carries a sword you can’t lift, or the cleric who can heal the poison from spider in your forearm, or the bard who can talk you out of trouble with goblins, or the wizard that-- 

[Matt]: 

That’s enough, that’s enough. I think we’ve already achieved it. The nerdiest commencement speech ever. Have we achieved it? 

[crowd applause]

[Matt]: 

I just hope that professor Kowalski found it thematically coherent. 

And I also hope it helps some of you too, because I have two little girls at home and I’m really scared for their future, because we’re on the frontlines of something major. And we don’t know exactly what it is, or what it’s going to look like. 

And you’ll be challenged in every possible way. You’ll be bitten, you’ll be misled, you’ll see some of your friends get brain-liquified. 

[Ross]: 

But keep reaching, take risks, stay weird, find your party, grab your swords and get out there and start slaying. 

Good luck, class of ‘26. Congratulation. 

[miasmagoria]

i lied, it's done now. let me know if there's any issues.

Duffer Brothers HSC Interview, 13 May 2026

[JOSH] Hey guys, how you doing? [ROSS] We are good! [MATT] Good! [JOSH] You’ve rested up – we were saying before, I feel like I did

plus some thoughts i had while transcribing this (under cut)

it upsets me that they sort of knew eddie would be very well-received, and yet they killed him off anyway. and his death was just so completely pointless and cruel.

i don't really get why they haven't just come out and straight up denied conformitygate or any theories like that if they're supposedly "done" with these characters. same with not confirming whether or not jane is still alive, because that makes it seem like they want to keep their foot in the door in case they ever do decide to revisit this story. but they've apparently been "adamant" about having no intention to continue with these characters or with hawkins/the upside down. so then, that also makes me wonder, what the hell is this spinoff supposed to be about? i'm preparing myself to be very disappointed.

the joke about them revealing the truth in twenty years pissed me off.

they mentioned that a lot of the props and things were given away to cast members. i wonder if they finally gave eddie's guitar to joe quinn, because joe had said in an interview that they wouldn't let him have it, but he really wanted it. (metallica gave him a replica of it, and they even signed it for him. great guys).

[beaulesbian]

who doesn't want to stay there forever?

henry told us all what would happen again, and he doesn't lie, right?

[beaulesbian]

I guess I was just so self-absorbed that I couldn't see it.

[beaulesbian]

some wheeler vs baxter kitchens layout similarities.

mike's basement vs nikki's garage layout that's also weirdly similar (aka the safe space and place for planning)

nikki and mike have the same boardgame on the shelf - "score five"

and it's interestingly mike has a different one in s4 - "score four"

plus mike's basement vs secret laboratory (how mike's basement in s5 lead holly and max to vecna's memories of holly. and possibly hiding in general (of El, memories, secrets!) - and the secret lab was literally hidden from sight, until something escaped!)

the queen wanted the creatures to come back to her? signal better from the basement ? wsqk radio hint!

Mindy: Oh, yeah, we play the biggest hits on the Squawk [chicken sound] and we’re beaming our signal all across this town. But for some reason, Hawkins, we’ve still got a little bit of that static on the line. Must be that weird weather coming in. But it’s coming in fast. So, hey, if your reception drops - the basement, that’s the best place you’re gonna honker down. Get that good signal down there, okay? So while you make your move downstairs, keep it locked to WSQK. 

(it's where el could find a way to contact Will in the upside down. signal.)

...which again reminds me of spying

(notice the spores, which weren't in the void before, nor in the school where mike and the others were hiding).

[sherlockbyers]

say that again?

(could literally just be her jumbling her words up but you never know)

[maxmayfieldirl]

Smth smth the scene where the anniversary effect, a thing that causes people to act out, is first mentioned only being a couple scenes before we see the Wheeler dinner scene where Mike is getting in trouble for acting out...

[nightnut]

yes, BUT

the song was released in 1978, so it’s pretty “the 80s”

[bylerschmyler]

YMCA Weekend Trip to Lake Winona.

The same lake 5 year old Holly apparently went to.

[boredwestwow]

Mike spending time at conversion therapy between S3 and s4 theory keeps making sense

[eilissxx]

“and the storyteller… keeps telling stories” english is not my first language so maybe im just slow but if THIS is mikes authors style….😭

[boredwestwow]

Jonathan explains that he loves photography because people don't say much,but you can see the truth in their faces. He's not someone who gives dramatic speeches,he expresses himself through images.

Mike is similar. He has never been poetic in casual conversation and always used his story telling as a way to express himself. Him being straightforward about his identity in a casual conversation says a lot about his character.

[gayleven]

Guys, is it still woke and feminist to claim the female main character of a show (that had ample screen time and multiple personal arcs) was actually UNDERDEVELOPED because my yaoi ship didn’t get together and she didn’t act like my fanon doormat characterization of her??? Because I felt smart when I said it

[boredwestwow]

One of the biggest flaws of the show is how El barely spends time with the party,but the entire show in general has problem with this cause emotional scenes between the party are barely there after S1.

The truth is bylers wouldn't be saying all these things about El if Mike and Will ended up together. So many things they're saying are incredibly tone deaf. By saying El is disgrace as a character to feminism,that she represents born sexy yesterday trope,that she's a manic pixie girl...

Mind you they're all saying this about a little girl who started this show while she was only 12. A little girl doesn't represent a trope where a grown woman is highly sexualized by a grown man who uses her. Mike is also just a kid which bylers forget while they keep comparing him to grown ass abusers. Which i don't even understand why they ship byler in the first place if they think so low of him. El is not a manic pixie girl, she's not quirky or bubbly,she doesn't exist as a plot device for Mike's arc,her character arc has always been significant every season and had the biggest screentime.

The main problem with bylers is that's how they see El,as an extension of Mike cause apparently she's the reason why Mike can't be with Will(even though i don't even think she's the reason,but that's the way they see it). It's not who El actually is,but that's the way bylers only see her. As Mike's love interest,as someone who's with Mike while they wanted the main boy to be with their self-insert

[lysimachias]

Not "The Character did nothing wrong" or "The Character is irredeemably awful" but a secret third thing: The Character may display moments of deep love & compassion, may even have a strong sense of ethics, and may also be capable of brutal cruelty that is irreconcilable with those traits. The constant tension between the different sides of The Character's nature is exactly what makes them compelling, and attempting to reduce them down to simply "a terrible person" or "innocent & misunderstood" is missing the point of the questions a media with nuanced characters is asking you to consider

[chromatictapestryperditions]

So uh in the Cinematography of ST video on YT from two weeks ago there's this shot I didn't remember (I now checked, it's from S3):

And well, it's the exact same as

And yes of course, the blue lightning is coming from the time travel machine in the Terminator:

[bylerworld]

i can't believe vecna had the ability to know both el and will loved mike and therefore could weaken them by attacking him and then decided to take holly instead like talk about a stupid ass villain who put this boring guy in charge

[madwheelerz]

One thing about the SNL sketch that everyone got mad about is that I learned 1 thing...the demogorgon's face shape is meant to represent vaginal imagery...imagery related to the monsters then could correctly be identified as vaginal imagery...wtf does that say about Mike wearing that monster shirt exactly?

[heroesbyler]

What in the gender fuckery

I noticed that more than ever before there is a certain tendency to include the characters expecting someone to have a gender and then it turns out that said someone does not, in fact, have this gender, with the most insane ones having to do with Henry, Vecna, One and The mindflayer. We have repeatedly been told that the mindflayer is a 'He' for some reason, but then we get a lot of subtext that suggests a different story. I did not even include the vaginal imagery of the UD as greater minds have touched it in length, but Mothergate is still one of the most positively insane things for me and this post by @henrysglock is a must read if this intrigues you.

vs the Mindflayer being as of the new WSQK referred to with a female name (Mindy Flare lol) and as a queen etc (seen in @krokodilsredimudil post and the masterpost of it taken from here)

Noteworthy mentions from the play is the Mindflayer appearing in the form of Patty and her mother, both female characters, in The First Shadow, to deliver actual messages to Henry about its intentions etc instead of just being a scary vision. and also Henry being shown 'trying on' his mother's dress.

(This is Mindflayer Patty, appearing in the beginning as real Patty only to reveal...itself? Herself? As the Shadown and start tearing its hair apart. Fun times.)

Long story short, they are leaving it on the floor and I am picking it up, we are all picking it up, but we don't have a single clue what it all means. One thing is for sure, this trans subtext is not accidental and I am absolutely here for whatever it means for the story.

[heroesbyler]

Prev:

[boredwestwow]

Hmm i wonder which character has gender fuckery and has numerous hints he's more connected to supernatural plot than it seems. And let's not forget him wearing demogorgon sweater with vaginal imagery in entire s5. Maybe there was a deeper meaning behind him being called Tammy.

In second ep El is wearing Mike's clothes, girl who looks like a boy hidden in his closet while his mom says he doesn't have to hide anything.

Mike being behind El who's experiencing girlhood for the first time,but it's him shaping it cause that's what he wishes to be.

[bluemoonscape]

So after I made my post about how Byler is consistently clogging tags of ships in the ST fandom AND outside of it (Jackieshauna being my main example, but also Sameena from Fear Street—both wlw ships, mind you) I had quite a few comments about Byler shippers with “Byler fatigue”—how they ship Mike and Will but have grown exhausted of the fandom’s vitriol towards Mileven shippers and general disrespect for any other ship or fandom that doesn’t want to see Byler in their tags. I’ve also felt severe Byler fatigue! I wanted them to become canon pre S5. I no longer feel attached to them at all. Apparently a lot of people feel this way.

It made me curious about something so I did a little 🥸 experiment. I scrolled through and counted the first 100 posts in the Top Posts section of the Byler tag and then the Mileven tag and counted every post that was from a shipper of the opposite fandom disparaging either 1) the other ship itself, or 2) the shippers. I didn’t find any anti-Byler posts in the top 100 posts of the Byler tag. This is how it should be. Every post was on topic and within the correct tag.

I found 6 anti-Mileven posts within the Mileven tag that were entirely about Byler 🚬

Like. This is why. This is why the fandom is driving away its own shippers 🫩 Multishippers can’t exist in Byler spaces. People who just don’t like seeing fandom bullying can’t exist in Byler spaces. Even Mike fans are hard-pressed to exist there seeing as at least half the fandom doesn’t even like him or see him as an actual character rather than a love interest. El lovers can barely exist there because of how much her traits and arcs are given by the fandom to Will. One major reason the fandom justifies bullying Mileven shippers by calling them “milkvans”, homophobes, and bullying them into deactivation or sending outright death threats, is because they claim Milevens are “obsessed” with shitting on Bylers and intruding on their spaces. But from someone who’s pretty neutral about both ships (fandoms outside, just taking the characters into account) all I see is Bylers coming into the Mileven tag, a space that should be reserved for Mileven posts just like Byler should be reserved for Byler posts, and attacking/making fun of them in their own online territory.

Genuinely, I doubt some of the actors (Finn in particular) have grown so averse to discussing Byler because they have something against a queer ship. They get harassed over that ship by the fandom. Gaten and Caleb, whose characters aren’t even involved in it, have been harassed over saying Byler becoming canon was never the point. Millie’s character has been hated on and brushed aside by the fandom of HER show, the show SHE starred in, so much that she doesn’t even seem to like being in ST spaces anymore. Like. I have genuinely NEVER seen a ship fandom as volatile as this!! And that’s not to say every shipper is part of this! I was a shipper off and on for a while, but the fandom sort of icked me out on it for good. The ship itself is not the problem. The fandom and culture around it is.

[boredwestwow]

The fact that they keep blaming homophobia for the hate they get meanwhile they're one of the biggest bullies on tumblr and twitter app.

As soon as they noticed byler wasn't gonna be canon after vol 2.,they started to sexually harrass Finn and Noah by claiming they're secretly fucking,that Finn is DL and all kinds of disgusting things. Then had the audacity to call Finn homophobic cause of SNL skit while no one was more homophobic than them by trying to spread rumors about him. Then body shamed him on top of it and called him ugly.

This entire cult needs to do some serious self-reflection. They can't keep claiming to be victims every single time while they're the main harassers

[miwiheroes]

have a fun milkvan valentine’s day!!!!

[boredwestwow]

You guys have said so much about this relationship and you still don't get tired

Aren't you people bored already?

"milkvan" are you five?

The truth is even if Mike wasn't with El,he still wouldn't be with Will. You guys have to start accepting it

Both byler and mileven are equally dead