a relatively unserious CG post about the hospital demodogs
(and my guess of who they are)
!! FLASHING LIGHTS AND LOUD WARNING !!
the way that the first demodog physically rolls its eyes at the other twos competitiveness? that feels strangely familiar...
almost like... its a direct parallel to another arc that also happens in season 5...
these demos likely parallel the nancy/jonathan/steve love triangle
okay okay long story short: dead characters pilot the demos. because uh. vecna copies their conciousnesses before they die and then recycles them into the creatures
so... who are the pilots?...
enter the demo evolution chart:
this evolution chart implies demodogs become demogorgons, so I shall safely assume that these characters died recently (like S4)
from this one clip I can pretty much pin down some stuff about their personalities
(also using hints in the background, not sure why each of them are framed with those specific objects but if you know lmk)
who do we know that:
- died in season 4
- and mirror the stoncy love triangle?
the princess, the freak, and the one-time jock:
in other words: chrissy, eddie, and jason
I was slightly torn between the silver demo and the gold demo and who was eddie and who was jason, since I could see either...
but, with the input of @avbyler, I ultimately decided the silver one was eddie (since he was friends with both robin and lucas) and seems a little bit sad
and I feel like jason would enjoy being imposing/threatening (especially considering his last moments with lucas.. oops)
the colours even kinda match them lol... turning up the exposure we get colours that look a whole lot like (bronze) copper, silver, and gold
(@sterlingarcher23 has great posts on silver, and @o11yradio on gold in ST)
also since now you definitely care about these dogs now (maybe) don't worry about them exploding!
I think that they pilot the demos remotely (they work from home/vecnas mind)
or vecna has like,,, multiple copies of them. they just have to wait again to evolve or something ...
also I have no clue how self aware they are. the fact that their personalities still somewhat shine through though?? that is very interesting to me
okay thank you for reading yay
bonus meme and demodog I drew (I love them):
tags for cool people who may find this interesting (but lmk if you don't wanna be tagged!!): @anotherjlynn @cara-ti-amo @autoasta @power-kinesis @gritstartar @thebestofmyrmidons @whispering-goat @nightnut @armencias @itswhatyougive
In the finale, Steve almost falls but Jonathan saves him. The way Dustin reacts in E6 I believe is more suitable after the fall scene. I now believe like many others that Dustin is a time traveler somehow....
Key word: "Again"
"You're gonna fall"
"...can't deal with it again"
"...don't let it happen again"
Foreshadowing or a past occurrence?
Dustin witnessed Steve actually die and he can't deal with it again. We(I) thought it could have been about Eddie but what if it was Steve?
Dustin is described as the "curiosity voyager"
Time is a curiosity.
Extra: In T 85, Dustin uses a camera but he doesn't use it in ST. Who loves cameras and has a passion for photography? Jonathan so maybe there is a connection between them.
He voyages through time. Very interesting that Dustin is the only one that has witnessed two people almost falling to their deaths.
I wonder what made this timeline different. Maybe it's this...
Before this, Dustin warns them through the walkie talkie that if she shoots it they will all die. What if Steve died because she shot it? And what if the timeline where he doesn't is this one....
Watch this scene guys. The way he held the gun was instinctual and swift. I'm still surprised that Nancy's first decision was to shoot it. Is that Nancy? 👀
What if Nancy did listen to him?
Jonathan stops Nancy from shooting the exotic matter and also saves Steve from dying. Jonathan, Steve's hero :) There may be something here.
Jane says "we are all time travelers if we think about it" in S4. I assume she is one as well because of how Mike's fall in S1 was executed. Jane saved him just like Jonathan saved Steve from falling.
Also, I watched a video by flowersun8774 on Tiktok where, in S2, Dustin's knowledge of Steve's bat that he used in Jonathan's house in S1 was questioned and thinking about it ...how did he know about the bat when it was the first time he met Steve? Unless he was at Jonathan's house in S1 E8. Flowersun8774 theorised this. This is getting really interesting!
Finally look at this.....
He looks so relieved yet so terrified. What has he seen?!?!?! All those jokes the Duffoons made about killing off Steve and also the fact that they said he was meant to die in S1...maybe he did in another timeline. It's all speculation but who knows?
If I am being perfectly honest with you then I must say that I don't believe that there is a reality out there where she does listen to him. Thing is, Nancy has doubts herself and Jonathan makes it clear through words and gesture that he also isn't sure if shooting the exotic matter believed to be a field generator is the right decision.
Yet, Nancy shoots it anyway.
Destroying the field generator was also part of their original plan and they were suspecting it to be somewhere in the building. She only stuck to what was agreed upon beforehand even though she had doubts.
What I believe is that Nancy in this circumstance probably has a hard time listening to Jonathan at all since there is so much built up tension between them. She isn't happy in this relationship and his behavior also frustrates her.
Her disposition towards him is already in the negative so when he tries to tell her what to do I am not surprised that she doesn't listen. Especially if this goes against her own instincts or what she wants to do.
It doesn't however end here as we know for sure that there is one person out there who's opinion Nancy values even if it clashes with her own.
Yes, that person is Robin and if she would have tried to keep Nancy from pulling the trigger, Nancy might have listened.
I am fully aware that Robin isn't here in the UD with them but maybe that is part of the problem. Maybe she's in the wrong place and should be here instead of giving Will advise that doesn't even work for her.
If we go back a bit further back and look at the scene where they all decide in what teams to split up into we can safely assume that this would have looked very different if Robin was there with them.
Nancy has a habit of ditching everyone else when Robin is around and that is especially true if it involves quarreling men.
So sticking to the usual teams would have meant Nancy partnering with Robin instead of Jonathan and leaving everyone else to form their own teams.
I do not know if Robin being better off with the UD team also means that someone from the UD team also would be better off being somewhere else but if we were to follow this line of thought then I would suspect it to be Jonathan.
He's the only one who is kind of expendable here and maybe he would also be the right person to speak with Will and give him advise that actually helps him. We know Jonathan and Will to be very close but we don't get to see much of it in this season. In fact Jonathan and Will barely interact at all and that in itself might also be suspicious.
I do believe that instead of discouraging Will from telling Mike the truth of his own feelings like Robin did he might have told him to do the exact opposite especially if he has reasons to be hopeful in regards to his own personal feelings.
During the scene where Steve and Jonathan finally have a talk in S5E8 Steve says something very mysterious. He's basically hinting that time could be saved if only they could have resolved their issues sooner.
Maybe this is a clue that whatever goes on between Jonathan, Nancy and Steve resolved itself too late. Maybe the break-up between Jonathan and Nancy should have happened sooner and maybe Jonathan and Steve also should have been on friendlier terms much sooner.
When exactly? I do not know but I do believe it should have happened before Nancy, Steve and Dustin go into the UD.
We should also keep in mind that Jonathan and Steve being more friendly towards each other didn't start after Steve almost fell to his death.
It starts after Jonathan and Nancy broke up and yes I also believe that Nancy's admission of not being into Steve has a lot to do with it.
Both Nancy and Jonathan were finally free and he also didn't need to be jealous anymore because Nancy does not want to be with Steve. This then enabled Jonathan to look at Steve with different eyes that aren't clouded by pain and jealousy because he finally knew that he wouldn't lose Steve to Nancy if he were no longer with her.
This sentiment is also reflected in the way he treats Steve right after this scene when Steve is helping both Nancy and Jonathan out of the hole. With Nancy it is clear precise movement while with Jonathan it's lingering glances and touches. (I also talked about this scene in much greater detail here)
Steve and Jonathan are on their way to reconnect here and they are also on the right path to accept their own hidden feelings for each other. (This doesn't get resolved in the end we saw but then again nothing gets resolved as they are all conforming.)
So when I say that Jonathan might not have been at the right place with the others in the UD, I don't mean it in the sense that the break-up shouldn't happen. I mean it in the way that it should have happened sooner!
I also think that Jonathan's more positive and hopeful feelings towards Steve are vital for his survival because if we look at the scene on top of the tower we should also notice that Jonathan being there and able to save Steve in time wasn't random or a coicedance.
They were always close, looking out for each other and even touching at times. They both knew where the other was at all time and I think this is why Jonathan could save Steve in the end.
Jonathan is indeed Steve's hero.
As long as he is able to focus on Steve at the end, Steve will survive because Jonathan will be there to save him.
That being said, I also believe that there is a reality out there where Steve does die because Jonathan isn't there to save him.
For this though, we need to go back a bit further in time right back to the scene where Jonathan and Nancy do break up. We also need to assume that everything so far has stayed the same. So Robin also isn't with the UD team.
I already touched upon this in my own multiple endings theory here but the entire break-up scene is filmed very ambiguously. At first I wasn't even sure if it is indeed a break-up or if they decided to stay together despite their differences but by now I think that this is the purpose of this whole scene. It can be seen as both in the way that there is a version of a reality where the break-up didn't happen and Jonathan and Nancy stayed together.
What starts this whole break-up scene is Nancy being honest with Jonathan as she finds the bravery in herself to finally tell him how she really feels about him and the things he loves.
So what would happen if she wouldn't have been as brave?
They both thought they were going to die here and they were also both under the impression that the other loved them. So making up a little lie in order to not hurt the other so shortly before their death might seem like a reasonable option. They might think of it as a white lie without consequences and a kindness to spare the other some heartbreak in their last living moments.
As we all know though, they didn't die. They both survived but by the time the melting stopped they would have fed into the other's believe that they in fact do love the other romantically and reinforced it. Maybe they would have even gotten engaged here thinking that this would make the other happy all while sacrificing their own feelings.
It would leave them with a commitment they don't want but also can't get out of without hurting the other deeply (or so they would think.) So what else would there be to do but stick to it for the time being while also feeling incredibly guilty because of it?
It might have also led them both to try again and focus on the other.
So Jonathan would have had his eyes on Nancy instead of Steve.
This then would have led him to be elsewhere either mentally or physically when Steve needed him.
Steve would have fallen and died.
It might have also gotten hinted at when Murray had this talk with Jonathan in S5E3. I know he is talking about Karen and Ted here but it could also be read as foreshadowing especially if Steve were in the end the one to die. (I also talked a bit about it here.)
The love rival in the jncy love triangle being dead would be such a perfect conclusion for his whole deal as well because Murray in S2 is first hellbent on getting jncy together and then in S5 is also hellbent on jncy getting engaged to each other. In fact he talks about it like he has personal stakes in it because why else would he tell Jonathan to marry Nancy for his own (Murray's) sake? He's overstepping his boundaries big time and I just don't understand why.
Maybe Murray is a villain here. I don't know.
That being said, I don't know anything about Dustin being a time traveler or not but there is one thing I am very sure of when it comes to him.
He has no idea of the inner workings of his friends and doesn't know at all what they truly feel. He also doesn't listen when they try to tell him.
He's a very prominent stbin and stncy shipper inside the show. He assumes they're all straight and if he is indeed a time traveler and is trying to stir everyone in the right direction for a better outcome then he is also wholly misinformed while doing so.
Dustin might even think that Robin being in the UD with Nancy and Steve would complicate things even further and wouldn't want her there because of it.
Alright. So what I am going to say in here is both meant to tie into this post I've made earlier as well as give further proof to @anime97-99 theories here and here in this reblog about Steve and Jonathan being soft and gentle at their core and in their feelings towards each other despite the rivalry we're seeing right now (after the release of S5 Vol 1) in the show.
Jonathan since the start of S1 has been shown to be nothing but kind and gentle in the way he interacts with the people he's close to and Steve over the course of the series has learned to embrace this side of him as well.
Both are also associated with rabbits.
Rabbits also need to eat.
Beware! This post is going heavily into the symbolism surrounding these two characters and is meant to show that their relationship or rather their attraction towards each other has always been present within the show. It was also suppressed by the narrative or some other overpowering entity within the show.
The first hint we'll get for this symbolism of rabbits and their food sources in particular goes back to S2 when Murray played a manipulated tape saying that the truth must be kept from spreading at all costs and how it's the same for "those weeds there."
It's meant as an acceptable explanation Jonathan and Nancy could give for Barb's death so she could finally get justice. In the very scene it plays though Jonathan and Nancy also get manipulated by Murray and then share their first kiss afterwards.
Murray in here uses "the weeds" line as a comparison but I don't think that this is the only meaning it carries. Weeds are getting pulled during this scene as well. It's the weeds representing Jonathan's (and Steve's) true feelings of either interest, attraction or love towards one another and Murray pulls them by bringing up Jonathan's and Nancy's personal trauma and then manipulating them in such a way that they cannot resist their urge to spite him and proof him wrong.
Nancy doesn't want to retreat to Steve's safety? If she'd kiss Jonathan she wouldn't have to!
Jonathan has trust issues? If he'd kiss Nancy he'd prove to Murray that he doesn't have any!
See how this works? Jonathan and Nancy never kissed (and did more) because they were genuinely attracted towards each other. They did it in order to escape their own trauma without having to deal with it.
This post isn't about jncy though. It's about Murray trying to prevent the true feelings of Jonathan (and Steve) from reaching the surface.
Murray has pulled the weeds indeed and in S3 he even reminds us about it.
Weeds though - as pretty much everyone knows - cannot be kept away forever just by pulling them out. They will grow back. Always.
In the same way true feelings for one another cannot be put to rest by cheap manipulation techniques for all time. They will also resurface.
Just like a relationship which is build upon lies cannot be held together by glue (or manipulation) for all eternity.
It's no surprise then that both Jonathan and Steve have been shown over the course of S3 and S4 to be interested in weeds. Steve admitted to it while under drugs and Jonathan blatantly gets to be shown to smoke weed while in California.
Murray tried to pull the weeds but they grew back.
There are of course many reasons as to why Jonathan started to smoke weed in S4. He uses it as a coping mechanism for all the other stuff he's got going on (like no longer being needed as much by his family) but maybe on top of all of this there is also another secret truth. Maybe he misses Steve.
Also take note of how Jonathan explains his smelly plants to El.
The plants are safe because they come from the earth. This will be important in a bit.
Also, while not all kinds of weeds are edible for rabbits (and certainly not the kind of weeds Jonathan and Steve are smoking but hey it's meant as a wordplay here) some of them can be part of a heathy diet for these little furballs.
Then we enter S5 and Murray is again here to block what would inevitably reach the surface if he doesn't do anything to prevent it. Again, this also gets shown to us trough symbolism.
When he arrives he asks Robin and Nancy if they've ordered a salad. A grenade salad to be precise. It's a grenade salad because he's hidden grenades under the lettuce.
Now we need to remember Jonathan's explanation to El as to why it was okay to smoke weeds. Weeds like these lettuce's here are supposed to be safe because they are plants that come from the earth. Whereas the weeds were safe before, the lettuce right now is not. It's not safe because because Murray literally booby-trapped it.
After Murray's already tried to pull the weeds and wasn't successful with it, he's now trying to make the lettuce explode.
Or in other words: After Murray has unsuccessfully tried to get rid of Jonathan's and Steve's feelings for each other, he's now pulling out the big guns by making it dangerous for them to even remotely act on their feelings.
Lettuce not only grows very close to the earth but is also a favorite for rabbits to eat. Not every type of lettuce is the same though as some are more healthy for rabbits than others. Also, only a small part of a rabbits diet should consist of lettuce.
Later we get to see another attempt of Murray trying to push Jonathan and Nancy together by pressuring Jonathan to ask Nancy to marry him. He's the one who has the most interest in jncy staying together, even more than Jonathan and Nancy themselves it seems.
It's also in this scene where Murray says something very ominous which might tie neatly into the symbolism of him putting grenades under the lettuce. He's reminding Jonathan that life is precious and the death of a loved one could serve as a necessary reminder to hold close what's dear to him. He is of course talking about the lives of Karen and Ted here. This is the obvious interpretation but I cannot help but feel that his words might also serve as foreshadowing here.
Could Jonathan feel motivated to get engaged to Nancy if he were to lose a loved one? Could the death of someone close to him and Nancy remind them to stay together and get married? Could Murray make the grenades under the lettuce explode?
Or in other words: Could Murray, the narrative or some other godlike entity within the narrative think it necessary to kill off Steve so jncy will stay together and get married?
If so I think it'll have a completely different outcome altogether. I don't think Steve will die but I do believe there may be a threat to his life. Volume 2 will show us if I am correct with this or not.
Besides. Murray may want Jonathan to get engaged with Nancy but the person Jonathan finds "quite engaging" is actually Steve. He is the one Jonathan is looking at right after Murray says these words and hands him the tape. Steve is also looking back. This probably indicates that he feels the same way.
Maybe Jonathan not only finds Steve quite engaging but also worth getting engaged to at a later point in time.
It's also no coincidence that Murray blocks Steve at first as he is the one who tries to prevent Jonathan's and Steve's feelings from finally being able to blossom. He is the one trying to prevent Jonathan's and Steve's inner rabbit from finally getting to eat their salad.
Steve is a salad head (even though he's currently unsafe because he's booby-trapped by Murray) as is proven by these camera shots. He's not a meathead like Jonathan later claims in the van. He's soft and gentle and therefore a great food source for Jonathan's inner rabbit.
They're both rabbits though and they both deserve to eat.
I think Steve and Jonathan are performing their hatred for each other. Also something about them climbing up the radio tower- which is shaped like a TRIANGLE (a common queer symbol) seems interesting to me.
Yes! I 100% agree!
I also think Steve and Jonathan are performing their hatred for one another (at least for the most part) because what they actually feel is something else entirely.
It makes me think of this little bit of dialogue when Nancy and Jonathan were at Murray's during S2 and he tries to get Nancy to admit that she loves Steve but she can barely get the words out because she doesn't love Steve. Meanwhile Jonathan looks like he feels caught. Like someone in this room truly loves Steve but it isn't Nancy. It's Jonathan.
But things are also never this easy aren't they?
Even if there is love underneath it all, it still doesn't erase all that happened between them and I also severely underestimated what all this time of separation did to them.
Before S5 they haven't really spoken since the end of S3 and we don't even know what they actually were taking about since it happened in the background. Plus, they weren't alone since Nancy was right behind Jonathan.
Then there is the moment they saw each other again at the end of S4 but that wasn't a happy one for them either. Jonathan runs straight into Nancys arms and Steve can only look from afar.
This I think also sets the mood for them in S5. Steve believes Jonathan is love with Nancy when things are a lot more complicated than that. It's not that Jonathan doesn't love her at all. I think he cares for her greatly but there is also another truth here. Whenever Nancy and Jonathan are left to their own devices, they start to fall apart sooner or later.
Steve however doesn't know this. I highly doubt he's aware that Nancy and Jonathan aren't sleeping in the same room and are barely talking when no one is around. He thinks the problem between Nancy and Jonathan comes from the fact that the latter can't seem to ignore him which is why his relationship with Nancy is in shambles but the truth is that jncys problems are a lot deeper than that. Jonathan's feelings for Steve are part of it but it's not like Nancy and Jonathan never had a chance to fully develop their own feelings for each other and sort through their issues. Steve was out of the picture for two entire seasons (ranging from either fall '84 or summer '85 to spring '86) and yet jncy didn't fare well in S3 and S4 at all.
S3 brought their differences to the forefront like no other season prior to S5 did. I've talked about it here but basically it's this: Jonathan values safety and fights for it while to Nancy safety feels like a trap so she fights against it. Keeping the job vs not keeping the job: Jonathan wants to support his family and if he gets fired he can't do this anymore. Meanwhile Nancy sees this job as a step in her career-ladder. If her boss doesn't value her work, she can leave him behind and look for someone else who will. See how this doesn't mix well?
Nancy's and Jonathan's core values are clashing and Steve has nothing to do with this.
He also doesn't know any of this I think. So he believes himself to be problem and tells Jonathan to stop focusing on him and start focusing on Nancy.
Also, even though Steve gets most of the reputation for turning this thing between them into a competition, I think it's actually Jonathan who can't let things slide. No one forced him to climb up that giant tower with Steve and given his previous behavior I also never thought that he'd act like this and yet here we are.
Steve does a thing or says a thing and Jonathan reacts to it. It's almost never the other way around.
Steve wants to climb the tower and then so does Jonathan.
Steve wants to drive through the gate. Jonathan is against it but then also directs his happiness at him after they've made it through.
Then Steve makes a suggestion as to what to do next and the only thing Jonathan can think of is a comparison he's made earlier.
So what I think is that this competition (if it even is one) is a lot more about Jonathan and Steve than it is about Nancy. It's about Jonathan believing Steve may (still) have a thing for Nancy and he can no longer deal with it in the same way he's dealt with it before whereas the way he's dealt with it before was silent suffering.
There is of course a lot more which plays into Jonathan's behavior this season. He's depressed. His relationship doesn't make him happy. Nancy also never makes any attempt to get closer to him. Joyce is ready to send him on a mission she considers dangerous while preventing Will from going at the same time. (Joyce has a favorite son and it's not Jonathan) No one believes in him or shows any visible consideration for him whatsoever.
Jonathan has given so much for everyone he loves over the course of all four seasons. He's at the end of his rope now and tries to grasp the only thing he still thinks he can get a hold of: Steve's attention.
He's no longer selfless. He can't move out of the way and let Steve have Nancy (remember he still thinks Steve is in love with her) in order to make him happy. He needs Steve's attention on himself and competing is the only way he thinks he can do it safely.
You know, as much as Jonathan values safety, maybe it's finally time for him to take a risk in his life. He doesn't need to completely change who he is. He just needs to be honest with himself and find the courage to openly talk about his true feelings. To Steve and to Nancy as well.
Maybe the outcome will surprise him.
Also yes!! This radio tower does look a a bit like a triangle. Plus it's also a giant phallic symbol (also "bad boy" according o Robin) both Steve and Jonathan are eager to climb while Nancy and Robin don't want to have anything to do with it. (Who can blame them, though?)
Plus, Jonathan wears a quite a few triangles himself this season.
See all those triangles at the back of his jacket?
Also, thank you so much for the question and please also accept my greatest apologies for answering so late.
I already did a post talking a bit about this here.
In S1, Jonathan recalls:
“My dad took me hunting on my birthday. He made me kill a rabbit. I guess he thought it would make me into more of a man or something. I cried for a week.”
The rabbit here is symbolic of forced repression. Jonathan likely killed it, as implied by his tears, fulfilling his father’s cruel demand and suppressing his natural gentleness.
The act represents external pressure shaping him into a version of masculinity he doesn’t want, a first taste of how the world asks him to harden himself.
First with Lonnie, then with Joyce and later with Murray.
Later, in S5, he encounters a wounded deer with Nancy and cannot bring himself tokill it. This is the defining moment, the true emblem of Jonathan’s innate empathy and refusal to conform to cruelty and expectations even though killing it right now is the best for the deer.
Where the rabbit symbolizes repression, the deer symbolizes his compassion but also his indecisiveness, his moral compass, and his emotional resistance to imposed roles.
Now, layer in Steve Harrington.
“Harrington” contains the root “hare”, echoing the rabbit from Jonathan’s past.
Steve becomes the living rabbit Jonathan has to “kill” but can’t do it. The vulnerable, soft, emotionally open figure he is drawn to and protective of. But at first he denyes it, fights it. Who he really is and he “kills”(beats Steve and denies his queerness) the “hare” (Steve and Jonathan’s identity).
I know he exploded because of Steve’s horrible comments about his family, but I feel there’s more to it. And after that moment, Jonathan definitely felt like Lonnie, like he’d accidentally proved Steve’s atrocious comparison to his father being right, even though is not the truth.
The deer shows what Jonathan refuses to destroy while Steve shows where that refusal points in human relationships.
And here’s the S5 twist, Jonathan believes Steve is in love with Nancy.
So what does he do??
He insults Steve, competes with him and reacts to every suggestion, every move he makes.
At first glance, it reads as rivalry. But through the lens of deer and hare symbolism, it’s much deeper: Jonathan’s actions are not about Nancy, they are about his strugglewith identity, “fate”, and emotional survival.
There is more to it, just look at this official cut-scene:
Jonathan is trapped in Max’s memory-labyrinth “second door”:
3. Escape (choosing his own path, the only good door)
By challenging Steve, by lashing out, by metaphorically climbing the tower with him, Jonathan is testing the third door.
He is reaching for choice, “to escape”, to act for himself, not out of obligation, not predestined, not because he thinks he “should” step aside for Steve or Nancy.
The deer he couldn’t kill becomes a mirror. He refuses to harm the soft, the vulnerable, even when jealousy, fear or because of others tell him otherwise. Steve, unknowingly, embodies that vulnerability. Jonathan’s competitiveness is the outer layer, the inner truth is care, fascination, and the first steps toward choosing a life on his own terms.
S5 Jonathan is insulting, argumentative, and competitive, but the cut scene’s scripts reveal the emotional weight behind it. He’s navigating the tension between duty, fate, and desire, using Steve as the focal point of his identity.
Even if the rabbit dies, the deer survives in a way, the hare will live and Jonathan’s heart quietly follows its own rules, defying expectation.
So I too always felt the Jncy getting Murray'd was iffy and I also hate the idea of Byler getting Murray'd cuz I want them especially Mike to realise their feelings on their own terms.
Also a great parallel between Mike and El and Nancy and Jonthan as you have pointed out is that both Mike and Nancy are their worst selves in season 3. And Bylers take Mike being a douche in ss3 as an indication that byler is endgame, what's stopping people from viewing jncy in the same light.
Another parallel is Byler - Painting Lie and Jncy - College Letter Lie. These 2 are prime examples of the miscommunication trope we see in romantic films and I believe the former will end with a positive outcome and the latter in a negative.
So season 5 could either be 1) Jancy if they do take time to sort out all differences and have proper heart to heart without hiding what each other wants in life, 2) They break up and we see them followinf their own dreams individually or with certain someones with initials S and R respectively only time will tell.
I'm sorry if this too long of an ask (well not exactly an ask as I'm just ouring out my observations after discovering this and bylerlipglances' blog) but please share your opinion on this.
PS - I might make more asks/posts about this (not anonymously) this time after I've rewatched ST.
Yes, anon! Preach!!
I completely agree with you. I also want Murray as far away from byler and all my other ships. Let them sort themselves out, realize their feelings on their own and find the courage to act on them. Not by being manipulated and getting their buttons pressed. It'll be so much harder but it'll be so much more worth it in the end.
Yeah, I completely forgot about this too. Mike like Nancy is at his lowest in S3 but there is still a major difference between these two and their respective relationships with the Byers brothers.
Both Mike and Nancy get better during S4 but for very different reasons.
For Mike it was because he was finally close to Will again. They had multiple heart-to-hearts where they talked about their feelings and were able to reach an understanding for each other on a personal level. (Not counting all the stuff about mlvn here)
Nancy however got better by being away from Jonathan. She tells him later at the cabin how she was glad he wasn't there which was not a lie. Look at her face. She is smiling as she wasn't unhappy he wasn't with her. Especially not after she found someone who can meet her eye to eye in Robin.
I know she complains to Robin earlier about how she is frustrated by Jonathan canceling the plans but by now I have a sneaking suspicion it wasn't because he didn't visit her when he originally planned to. It was because of the way he canceled the plans.
He did it for some vague mumbly Jonathan reason, apparently. This makes it sound like you could put a TM behind it. Like he does it often and this frustrates Nancy because he doesn't tell her what is actually going on.
Thing is that Jonathan wasn't always like this. Not towards Nancy and not even during the course of S3.
In S3 Jonathan was pretty clear with what he wanted. He wanted to drop the story because their boss asked them to do so. To him the story with the rats was not worth getting fired over but to Nancy it was.
Again, if we are going with Flos words about how love makes you crazy and do stupid things (it's not applicable to jncy in S1 - read here - but that doesn't mean that there isn't any truth to it at all as we've seen with byler) then Nancys love for the story and her own ambition is driving her. To Jonathan though that's a stupid thing to do. It's not worth it so it's better so it is better to do the reasonable thing: Listening to their boss. He doesn't have any love for the story. Ambition or wanting to make it big is not what's driving him here.
What we need to understand is that Jonathan right here in S3 is not conforming to reach a higher goal like Nancy is. He does it for his family. To support them so they suffer less financial struggles. To him getting fired over the story Nancy wants to pursue so desperately is hindering him in what he is there for in the first place: To support his family.
I don't know how conscious Nancy is of it but I think the reason why Jonathan sounds like these other men to her is not because of outright misogyny or their general nastiness towards her. Jonathan never acted like this towards her or anyone else and she knows this too. However in her mind the men at the paper and Jonathan are still doing the same thing to her: Holding her back. They like Jonathan are keeping her from reaching her full potential.
Jonathan doesn't know what it's like because to him while he's being parentified to no end, he never feels like his family is holding him back or is a burden to him. They are the very reason he has the job in the first place. He wants to support them to keep them safe from any kinds of struggles no matter what they might look like. So to him it's totally worth it to drop a story if it means he gets to keep his job and can continue to support the people he loves.
This is the reason why they don't understand one another. They have this job (and I am pretty sure they were both excited to have it at one point in the past) but for entirely different reasons which in the end don't mix well.
Nancy is ready to risk everything so she can reach her full potential.
Jonathan is not willing to risk anything if it means it'll potentially harm his family.
Another thing we have to keep in mind is that this is not the impression Nancy has of Jonathan. Murray presented him to her as the exact opposite of Steve and his safety. Someone she'd be able to fulfill her dreams with and who is ready to walk that road with her.
That is not true though. Jonathan just like Steve values safety all while Nancy thinks it's trapping her as it hinders her to pursue her own ambition.
(many thanks to @somethings-wrong-with-nana for helping me figure this out)
We also see this reflected later in what her mom tells Nancy when they have a heart-to-heart. If the small town paper doesn't recognize Nancys efforts and dismisses her story, another bigger paper might take it. It's the same thing she tells Jonathan later at the cabin in S4. I know it's meant as a joke but there is still some truth behind her words when Nancy says she wants to put "saving the world" on her collage resume.
To her there is always something else, something just out of reach but worth fighting for all while Jonathan is perfectly happy with the little things he has as long as his family is not hurting.
One more thing before I come back to what you said but Jonathan was at first completely able to stand up for himself like Robin was later in S4. He told her what he wanted and he is also ready to give back in the same vein as Nancy is ready to dish out.
You may or may not have realized this depending on how much knowledge you have of the Oliver Twist novel but what Jonathans says to Nancy in the morning when she calls him is a direct response to what she said to him earlier in the car. He tells her he had a "late night with Fagin and the gang." I did not understand it at first as I did not know who Fagin even was (Does Jonathan have friend we don't know of? Or is it a band I am not aware of?) but Fagin is a character from Oliver Twist. He is the leader of a gang of thieves Oliver finds himself to be part of against his will. Fagin is also dead set on corrupting poor innocent Oliver as that will get him a lot of money if he's successful.
It's only later that he starts to lie to Nancy for real because this is the only way to save their relationship at least for a little while longer.
Thing is, Nancy hates it when he lies and offers his vague mumbly Jonathan reasons to placate her but he cannot be honest with her either as she also hates his truth.
The collage letter lie will imho bring all of this to light and this is where I think you are also correct, anon. While the painting lie will bring byler closer together and help them sort out their feelings, the letter lie will rip jncy apart as it'll lay open all the things wrong with their relationship.
It's also why I don't think jncy can sort themselves out because as pointed out above they are just so fundamentally different from one another. Personality wise, life goal wise and in the way they find their own fulfillment in life.
If they were to continue their relationship regardless even after they've sorted themselves out they'd just be continuing it for the sake of their relationship and not themselves. It means that instead of becoming like Joyce and Lonnie, they'd become like Karen and Ted.
I just don't want that for either of them. I want them both to find their happiness in life and get validation for their view points because neither of them is actually truly in the wrong here. They are just incompatible.
So please let them give Jonathan someone who's initial starts with an S and Nancy someone who's initial starts with an R. Although I could also see Nancy pursuing her dreams all alone in the end. She certainly has the strength for it but maybe she still wouldn't mind having someone with her who's actually able and willing to walk that road with her.
THANK YOU so much for your comments, anon! I really appreciate them a lot and no I don't think you wrote too much because as you might have guessed I also tend to write pretty long answers.
You are always welcome to share more of your thoughts if you want. Anonymously or not. Whatever fits you best. :)
Also thank you so much for reading my blog posts. It really means a lot to know that there are others out there who appreciate what I have to say.
The scene in which Jonathan and Nancy get together starts out with Murray playing a manipulated tape which mentions how the truth must be kept from spreading by any means necessary.
It's the same with weeds. Apparently they must also be kept from spreading. Possibly by any means necessary as well?
In the same scene we also learn that retreating to Steve means retreating to safety. While Nancy is the one Murray asks first, it's actually Jonathan who answers the question.
So possibly to him retreating to Steve and retreating to safety means something else than it does for Nancy.
In S3 we get another reminder that Murray is the one to pull the weeds.
One thing we should keep in mind though is that no matter how many times you try to pull the weeds, they'll never stay away for too long. In the end they will always grow back.
We also learn that Steve doesn't do drugs. Only weeds.
In S4 El tells us that Jonathan likes to smoke smelly plants now. It's no reason to worry though as the plants are super safe because they come from the earth or so he told her.
So weeds are safe because they come from the earth.
Retreating to Steve also means retreating to safety.
weeds = safety = Steve ?
Mr. Rabbit is another one which can apparently be saved by Nancy if she so wishes. The word used here is "save" and not "keep" which may or may not be a deliberate choice.
Maybe Nancy could provide Mr. Rabbit with the safety he so longs for?
She doesn't want to though as she thinks he'll be more loved in a new home.
Maybe Mr. Rabbit likes the weeds too and maybe someone in the background is ready to provide both.
One has his head buried the others shoulder while another also looks slightly to the side and to the ground all while the third one doesn't look at either of them. Instead she looks up at the open sky above her as she has dreams to follow and goals to reach. She can do without earths safety and she cannot provide it for either of the other two.
Nancy is a sky girl but Jonathan and Steve are earth guys.
Maybe Jonathan and Steve can provide safety for each other though.
When I made this post yesterday about the possibility of Steve dying if there is a true bad ending of the show, I realized just how impossible it would be for him to die as long as Jonathan is not too afraid to look at him due to shame, regret, guilt or other feelings.
If Jonathan would have stayed with Nancy, Steve might be dead by now. They did break up though and so Jonathan was free to finally look at him like he might want to. He's making baby steps of course because this would still be the early stages of a new beginning with someone new but even the possibility thereof was enough to save Steve.
From a stonathan perspective the whole sequence on the tower and how close Steve and Jonathan always were is crazy to look at.
It starts here where Steve is directly positioned behind Jonathan. When Jonathan is talking to the entire group Steve is the one who is closest to him.
Then we get this shot with Dustin who we know to be Steve's best friend looking at Steve. The other person though who also looks at him is Jonathan. It's so fascinating because for all intends and purposes it could have been Robin who is also Steve's best friend but no. They choose Jonathan.
Their hands are almost touching here just like they did the first time Steve and Jonathan climbed the tower in 05x01.
Or this one where Jonathan still touches the box but Steve is so close that he might even feel Jonathan's arm on his back.
Then last but least we also learn that the feeling is mutual. When Jonathan stands in the middle of the shaking platform and is in danger the most it's Steve who puts his hand on his shoulder to help give him stability. It gets better when you consider that Jonathan isn't even that close to him and yet Steve still reaches out to hold on to him.
It's almost like instinct. They know when the other needs them and they need to be there for the other.
As long as Jonathan is not actively trying to avoid Steve, there is no way he'd ever let him die.
When Nancy tells Jonathan that Fred could have covered for her at the school paper but she didn't take the offer as she needed space, Jonathan asks her if this means that she needed space to be with someone else.
This is an interesting question to ask considering that they are currently in the process of ending their relationship. Why would Jonathan still care who Nancy is with or could get together with? I don't think it's a question that is rooted in jealousy of someone else or fear that he could lose her as he is currently giving her up himself.
I think there are two possibilities as to why he might ask such a question though. He wants to make sure she's happy without him or there is something which deeply affects him when it comes to Nancy and this other person she could potentially get together with. It not directly about her though.
After Jonathan asks his question Nancy hesitates and looks down. As @dyermenace says in their post here, this could very well be because she is thinking about Robin who she spent most of her time with in S4 and I very much believe this to be true. However, Nancy is not going to say this out loud and admit to it. It is a confession that is not meant for Jonathan either and it also isn't what he's currently interested in.
Instead Nancy tells Jonathan that Steve's a good guy and with that she's also reinforcing what she told him at the cabin at the end of S4. Steve has grown up. He's no longer the guy he used to be. She makes it clear that she likes Steve (liking someone doesn't mean you love them though) and I find it very fascinating what happens with Jonathan's face here. Sure enough this whole thing is very emotional and they are both on the verge of tears but I also can't shake the feeling off that there may be more to this than meets the eye. Like the possibility that Jonathan believes Nancy is just about to tell him that she loves Steve and wants to be with him. He's preparing for a heartbreak that isn't about Nancy.
She then tells Jonathan that Steve makes her laugh which immediately causes Jonathan to sob. The expression on his face doesn't change at all. He's still sad and heartbroken because he thinks Nancy has found this other person which can make her happy and it's Steve.
Then Nancy makes a small joke about Steve's hair and despite it all Jonathan can't do anything but smile. He squints, looks down and although he also shakes his head I think that he very much agrees with Nancy. Steve does have great hair and maybe he also likes it more than he lets on which is why he smiles despite what he believes she's saying.
That is until Nancy surprises him and tells Jonathan that she isn't interested in Steve. His mood seems to lighten slightly and he is no longer on the verge of crying in the same way he used to before. He looks at her like a weight has been lifted off his shoulders just now and maybe it has. Maybe this confirmation from Nancy that she's not in love with Steve sets him at ease because now he knows he no longer has to try and give up on what he wants in order to make other people happy.
Nancy and Steve are different people but so are Nancy and Jonathan. Maybe this also means that there are some similarities between Jonathan and Steve. Similar interests maybe. Or other experiences they can potentially bond over. Like possibly the fact that they are both best friends with their little brother although Jonathan doesn't know about that yet.
Or maybe even similar life goals. Because I very much think that the idea of having kids of his own some day appeals to Jonathan. Sure, six kids may be a little too much but maybe one or two? In the future when they are both ready to have them.
My point here is that Nancy just told Jonathan of Steve's dream which is simultaneously her very own nightmare and it makes him smile. His tears of sadness have turned into tears of relief. He laughs and calls Steve's dream a happy meal. Like it is food to him. Food that sustains him, nourishes him and makes him happy.
Like he might share Steve's dream.
Then shortly before Jonathan and Nancy are finally able to leave the melted lab, Nancy asks Jonathan if he has anything else to confess and maybe he does. Maybe he does have something he'd like to say but Nancy isn't the person this confession is for which is why they get interrupted here.
Maybe this confession is for the interrupter. It's meant for Steve only as Jonathan also very fittingly tells Nancy to stay back. I know he does it to protect her as they both don't know what is going on but you can also read it in this other way as Nancy now has no more involvement in whatever is between Jonathan and Steve.
It's then that Steve finally gets Jonathan and Nancy out and if you watch closely you'll notice the difference in the way Steve helps them both. With Nancy Steve just gives her a hand she can hold onto while she crawls out of the hole. It's fast and to the point, not so much with Jonathan though. Like he did with Nancy he also gives Jonathan a hand but unlike Nancy Jonathan intensifies the contact by also putting his hand on Steve's shoulder.
Then they are both almost unwilling to let go of each other. Their touch lingers for a split second until they finally let go of the other.
Jonathan even voices his thanks which is probably the nicest he's been to Steve in this whole season.
Also, judging by the way Steve looks at Jonathan after he's helped him climb out of the hole, Jonathan might not be the only one who harbors secret feelings he isn't willing to admit just yet (but maybe that'll change very soon.)
Being aromantic while liking romantic media is like sitting in the greatest cuck chair of all time. A cuck throne, if you will. Guards! Make them kiss! 🫵 and leave me out of it
the nosebleed seats are the most comfortable cuck chair of all time
I remember noticing this distinct scene in episode 6 of season 3 of euphoria (see further below), but I IGNORED IT, I thought METAGATE WAS SILLY, I did NOT want to read into, and I did NOT want to believe in metagate, but it's relevant now that we know how the finale ends!!!!
Remember - Mike and Lexie? Our storytellers? Who are both depicted as feeling guilt/regret for not having said 'I love you', in the series finales of their respective shows?
You know our theories that Mike was the storyteller and made up El's death, and felt so much guilt over the fact that he could say I love you back?
Lexie adopts the same fucking role in the series finale of Euphoria. This is a 4th wall break scene from episode 6 of season 3, that I chose to IGNORE on first watch, yet it lingered at the back of my mind!!! It's Lexie describing how she'll write her episode of LA Nights (where she's been hired as screenwriter):
'Why don't you just kill her character?'
'Cause I'm supposed to build her up'
'If someone doesn't die periodically, people get bored'
How are more people not catching on that episode 8 of euphoria might just be Lexie's narrative/screenplay? The same Lexie who staged a fake version of Oklahoma, to cover up the nitty, true play that she decided to put on... Where have I head that before...
This specific line below is FISHY AS HELLLLLLL!!!!! I THINK I'VE HEARD THAT SOMEWHERE!!!
'OK, so, build up to kill her'
'The whole episode is building towards "Eleven is going to kill herself"'
Lexie is literally describing that she's writing a story where the story builds up to the main female protagonist getting killed...
One thing that Sam Levinson cannot do is subtlety, which is why this feels so much more blatant and less hard to believe than conformitygate in and of itself...
Why is no one talking about this? Or are people talking about this? Am I going crazy?
I didn't even intend to watch Euphoria under the guise that it was possibly metagate, because that felt SO SILLY, but that finale????
We must protect his smile at all cost... It's precious.
Home, sweet home...
3+4+3+1=11
Interstate 20.
Haha.
See?
This game is still fun, despite the absolute carnage on the screen.
Speed Queen
TOTAL: 111
Speed queen...
So, what, we're still doing the promotion?
Just not into another knight, like the one that was captured, but into a queen?
Is that why?
Am I reading too much into this, Matt and Ross?
...
Sometimes I wonder, if all 5 Seasons could've been done in like 4-6 years total, with Covid and writer's strike included, if you just hadn't wasted your time on stupid ass shit like this...
Do you have at least a whole separate team for this crap?
Are they okay with this?
Like... has any one of them ever dared to ask: but... why?
Or is this how you usually spent most of the time preparing for the next season, instead of writing a semi-decent script?
...
Whenever I see this metaphor:
Never ever...
Also... why the laundry room, of all places?
I mean...
I'm actually speechless.
...
Yeah. That's right.
This is how Mrs. Wheeler does the laundry, and has always been doing the goddamn laundry.
With ARGO.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Is this FUNNY to you Matt and Ross?!
Do you laugh at your own lame ass joke, knowing that no one will ever get it?!
You've got the time and audacity to construct a freaking bridge like this between two stupidly obscure moments, almost a decade apart, but you didn't have the balls to actually build up to THEM properly?!
WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU?!?!?!
Dipshits...
---
There's this bizarre moment with Max from 5x7:
Me:
Okay...
What the hell is going on here with Max?
Has she... developed a sixth sense, somehow?
Is she... actually scanning the area?
Like a certain scout...
Before you point out the obvious, no she's not following Lucas with her eyes; after he left the screen to the left (our left) his voice was still coming from the left, he hadn't circled back right. Not to mention, that her eye-movement is too quick compared to Lucas' walking speed and she's clearly looking slightly upwards, into the distance.
One thing is for sure, she's definitely not sensing Holly falling from the sky, because in the scene when Nancy tells Mike and the others what happened, we only see Holly falling from the sky as a flashback.
It didn't happen simultaneously with Max scanning around like a freaking radar...
Utterly bizarre.
Unless you've got a reason for it...
Do you?
Or is it just another coincidence?
---
Me:
Alford, Reggie and Walsh walk into a bar...
It's like the first line of an awful joke.
"Doubling the score..."
"... 4 from 6" -> 4+6=10
We need One more...
"... from the FIELD."
Thanks for spelling it out.
Okay...
All three names (Alford, Reggie, Walsh) have very interesting etymology, but we're only gonna discuss one, because it truly stands out (even though the other two are plagued with clues as well):
Foreigner.
Or maybe this Foreigner, that we can hear in a certain scene in S3.
Brannagh.
💬 1 🔁 0 ❤️ 3 · Stranger Things: My name is Victor Frankenstein. · Premiered on the London Film Festival on November 3rd 1994....
Hawkins,
The fact that Max is doing this with the Hawkins lab right behind her.
X marks the spot!
Total coincidence I guess. But what are the odds that this is a coincidence? That we have her right there. Coincidence.
Developed an ability? Or absorbed? - Let's exchange the experience.
Oh, I think I found our missing star from the comet - the stairway the demodogs take. Yeah, One is up that way.
Okay, a Queen. Makes technically more sense. I think I mentioned it that typically you'd chose a queen for a pawn promotion, it's essentially the most powerful piece. (A knight would still be a good choice but a queen is obviously better suited for a check mate).
And works with Reggie as the male form for Regina. Queen. (That's why it said ER on British cops badges, it meant Elisabeth Regina)
I am afraid I know why they approach it this way, doing it by the end (and they push very hard with the El/Kali suicide mission and sharing minds even though it could have been done earlier. But would the audience then remember?) - but I think we A) have to wait how they'll conclude the show and B) this needs it's own post. My only hope is that they give it more than just 56 seconds of explanation but also a time to breath. At least this time.
I wouldn't rule out the possibility that they are technically capable to change the audience's perspective on the world IF its done well. But their track record doesn't really convince me.
I take these new findings as a birthday gift and, Duffers, Santa didn't get my wishlist but how about a belated birthday gift? Just asking.
What is it, Duffers?
Okay - One last time.
Otherwise I better stay clear of future projects you make.
can you keep a secret without telling a lie? 💫 @nuffit - Tumblr Blog | Tumgag
