Just as I imagined, Persephone isn't even mentioned in Nolan's *Odyssey*, as far as I recall... (And well, I don't know if Hades counts as being mentioned, since they only use "Hades" to refer to the place itself.)
That's not surprising. Nolan isn't the first person to ignore the most astonishing descriptions of Persephone in the Odyssey.
Are there other similar European tales—like the one about Proserpina, Queen of the Fairies? Not the exact same story, but ones that blend Greek mythological figures with European literature?
🤭I'm actually really obsessed with Fairy Queen Proserpina. Here are some I've collected:
The Merchant's Tale by Geoffrey Chaucer: My favorite! Fairy Proserpina and Pluto had a little contest, meddling in the affairs of a old husband and his younger wife. If you like Lucian's Dialogues of the Dead, you may enjoy this one.
Artus de Bretagne (Arthur of Little Britain): Proserpina appears as a fairy godmother figure who assists the male lead Artus.
Sir Orfeo: Pluto becomes one of Orfeo's ancestors. The role of underworld royal couple is replaced by the unnamed fairy couple.
The Tale of Orpheus and Erudices his Quene by Robert Henryson: Proserpine is mostly referred to the "goddess infernal," but is also called "quene of fary." She is claimed to take away Erudices.
Hark, All You Ladies by Thomas Campion: Proserpina takes on the role of the lovers' guardian and leads her fairies to punish those who break their lovers' hearts.
Nymphidia by Michael Drayton: Proserpine is still queen of Shades, but she helped Mab, the fairy queen, resolve a dispute caused by a affair.
The Most Famous History of the Seven Champions of Christendome by RIchard Johnson: Fairy queen Proserpine wields the power to assist in childbirth.
Is it correct to say that the Locri pinakes depict Hades and Persephone? I used to take this for granted, but I’ve also read about the possibility that they actually represent a Locrian bridal couple. So, I’m unsure. Could it be yes, no, both, or does it not really matter?
There are still many uncertainties regarding the purpose and symbolic meaning of the pinakes, but I believe they do represent both sides of the worshipper and their goddess through different visual elements and the same recurring motif.
They simultaneously communicate meaning at the level of myth (the experience of the goddess), communal ritual (the festival activities carried out within and in direct reference to the sanctuary itself), and individual experience (offerings made on one’s own behalf outside of a calendrically-determined, community-based context). These levels cannot be fully extricated from each other, but participate in an ambiguity which I think existed already at the time of their dedications.
(Life, Death, and a Lokrian Goddess)
Does Ovid also depict the rape of Persephone/Proserpina by Zeus/Jupiter, as found in Orphism?
" As a satyr, Jupiter impregnated the daughter of Nycteus with twins; and, as Amphitryon, he took you, Tirynthian wife; and Danaë as gold; Asopus’s daughter as a flame; Mnemosyne, as a shepherd; Deo’s daughter, as a spotted snake."
Oh, I've answered this before. It's worth noting that Orpheus was not the first who invented the story of Persephone and Zeus's union. Cicero explicitly linked only the son of Jove and Luna to the Orphic mysteries, different from the son of Jove and Proserpina. Therefore, I still believe this is an Egyptian religious image adapted from a Greco-Roman perspective.
Just finish Valerius Flaccus' Argonautica
a crazy journey
But there Venus’ altar stands ever cold, since the day when the goddess trembled before her husband’s righteous anger, while Mars lay bound in the noiseless-woven fetters. For this cause she is plotting evil and scheming destruction for guilty Lemnos like some Fury; for she hath not only a gracious aspect when she binds her hair with golden pin, her bright robes falling loose about her; it is the same goddess that, fierce and huge, her cheeks blotched and dark, seems like a Hell-maid with her crackling torch and black mantle.(2.98ff)
Soon they depart to their homes to feast; they lie down in the high colonnades, by each man’s side his wife, raging and eager to be doing, even as Tisiphone beneath the night of hell’s abyss lies close to the terror-stricken Phlegyas and Theseus, and tastes the ghastly meats and wine (her way to torture them), and wreathes them with her foul serpents. (2.184ff)
Lo! afar off they descry warriors making towards Lemnos with sturdy strokes of the oar; the queen stars in sudden alarm, and calls councillors about her. No reckless rage lacked they to bring arms or fling brands upon the foe, had not Vulcan quelled the savage passions of Venus’ stirrings. (2.311ff)
So spake she, and sank upon the neck of her Haemonian husband. Not less sadly hung his wife on Orpheus’neck, and thine on thee, thou son of Aeacus,18 and theirs on Castor and Castor’s twin. (2.425ff)
Juno ordered a nymph to kidnap Hylas because she still hated Alcides and wanted to kick him out of the team. Then, in a dream, Hylas revealed his fate to Alcides.
Well, Alcides and Ceres had a lot to share in talking.
Just finish Valerius Flaccus' Argonautica
a crazy journey
But there Venus’ altar stands ever cold, since the day when the goddess trembled before her husband’s righteous anger, while Mars lay bound in the noiseless-woven fetters. For this cause she is plotting evil and scheming destruction for guilty Lemnos like some Fury; for she hath not only a gracious aspect when she binds her hair with golden pin, her bright robes falling loose about her; it is the same goddess that, fierce and huge, her cheeks blotched and dark, seems like a Hell-maid with her crackling torch and black mantle.(2.98ff)
Soon they depart to their homes to feast; they lie down in the high colonnades, by each man’s side his wife, raging and eager to be doing, even as Tisiphone beneath the night of hell’s abyss lies close to the terror-stricken Phlegyas and Theseus, and tastes the ghastly meats and wine (her way to torture them), and wreathes them with her foul serpents. (2.184ff)
Lo! afar off they descry warriors making towards Lemnos with sturdy strokes of the oar; the queen stars in sudden alarm, and calls councillors about her. No reckless rage lacked they to bring arms or fling brands upon the foe, had not Vulcan quelled the savage passions of Venus’ stirrings. (2.311ff)
So spake she, and sank upon the neck of her Haemonian husband. Not less sadly hung his wife on Orpheus’neck, and thine on thee, thou son of Aeacus,18 and theirs on Castor and Castor’s twin. (2.425ff)
I've been wondering, what is very god in Greek mythology that has been referred to as a Titan?
No just the main ones, but also more obscure Titans and also ones from Roman mythology.
According to Hesiod, "Titan" is a derogatory nickname that Ouranos gave to his children: "Now those sons, their father, mighty Sky, called by surname Titans, upbraiding those whom he had himself begotten; and he was accustomed to say that, outstretching their hands in recklessness, they had wrought a grave act (φάσκε δὲ τιταίνοντας ἀτασθαλίῃ μέγα ῥέξαι ἔργον), but that there should be vengeance for it hereafter (τοῖο δ' ἔπειτα τίσιν μετόπισθεν ἔσεσθαι)."
However, I believe there is no strict definition of the Titans. The term is used either to refer to ancient gods or to gods who opposed Zeus. They are closer to immortality than the Giants, and are more closely related by blood to the gods of Olympus. I think C.A. Faraone's observation is correct: they are the underworld ancestors of the Olympian gods, just like ghosts.
In your opinion, is it reasonable to say that Hades is the worst husband—or has the worst marriage—among his brothers? (Contrary to popular belief.)
Zeus and Helios wouldn't agree.☝️
To be honest, I always think it's weird to rank the best and worst couples in greek mythology. I mean, what are the criteria? Which texts are we even referring to?
The Iliad might suggest that Zeus and Hera's relationship was initially consensual. Oppian believed that Poseidon conquered Amphitrite against her will and thus took her as his wife. As for Hades, the abduction of Persephone, as depicted in the Homeric Hymns and other works, was even more astonishing, becoming an enduring motif. So who is better?
But Hades and Poseidon didn't suspend their wives in midair as punishment, or push their own sons down when they came to rescue their mothers. So who is worse?
I don't think this kind of ranking helps us appreciate mythology. Every character and every relationship between them is unique. How can we tell which of Jason, Aegeus, and Achilles would have been the worst husband for Medea?🤣
Young Groom Hades? Male votivevotive terracottas of Morgantina
Eight male standing terracotta figures, belonging to five mold series, were discovered at Morgantina. Two attributes survive: five of the figures wore wreaths, and one had a snake coiled around its left hand. The identity of the male figure has been variously suggested as Apollo, a youthful Dionysos, or a male companion of the goddess. An inscription mentions the name Elaielinos, possibly derived from "olive" and "vine shoot."
The figure may also be identified as Hades. The snake is a distinctive attribute of Hades in Etruscan tomb paintings. If the central rite celebrated the marriage of Persephone and Hades, it would be natural to find images of both bride and groom. The wreath, in fact, is characteristic of the bridegroom and serves as the sole costume element identifying him as such.
Although Hades is typically depicted as a bearded elder, a few exceptional monuments show him as a cleanshaven youth—notably a rare Lokrian pinax, an Apulian volute krater in Naples, and a Sikeliote pyxis in Basel. These representations may also depict the wedding of Hades and Persephone.
Furthermore, if Elaielinos is local name for Hades, it may portray him as a milder and more beneficent figure, closer to Plouton—the underworld god widely worshipped for his agricultural power in the Greek world.
A series of sculptures from the Archaeological Museum of Aidone. First from the right, Hades(?).
3D model version
Bibliography: Malcolm Bell, Morgantina Studies Volume I: The Terracottas, p88-91
Thus with repeated strokes he felled the smoke-grimed deity of rotten wood, which upon being thrown down burned as easily as dry wood when it was kindled. After this the head was wrenched from the neck, the bushel having been taken down, and dragged off; then the feet and other members were chopped off with axes and dragged apart with ropes attached, and piece by piece, each in a different place, the decrepit dotard was burned to ashes before the eyes of the Alexandria which had worshiped him. Last of all the torso which was left was put to the torch in the amphitheater, and that was the end of the vain superstition and ancient error of Serapis.
(Rufinus, Ecclesiastical History, 11.23)
That of Isis and Sarapis in Egypt she says will be overthrown and burnt up: “Thrice wretched Isis, by Nile's streams thou stayst lone, dumb with frenzy on dark Acheron's sands.” Then lower down: “And thou, Sarapis, piled with useless stones, in wretches Egypt liest, a ruin great.”
(Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation to the Heathen, 4.4)
Already the Egyptian Serapis has been made a Christian; while at Gaza Marnas mourns in confinement and every moment expects to see his temple overturned.
(Jerome, Letter, 107)
Is Ovid the only author that has Persephone eat the seeds willingly? (I’m talking about the Ascalaphus myth 😬)
On a other hand, only in the Homeric Hymn to Demeter does Persephone accuse Hades of forcing her to eat a pomegranate seed. Her accusation, however, differs slightly from the earlier accounts.
Other sources are even more ambiguous. Pseudo-Apollodorus may have been familiar with a version similar to Ovid's, in which Persephone accidentally swallowed the pomegranate seed.
But when Zeus ordered Pluto to send up the Maid, Pluto gave her a seed of a pomegranate to eat, in order that she might not tarry long with her mother. Not foreseeing the consequence, she swallowed it; and because Ascalaphus, son of Acheron and Gorgyra, bore witness against her, Demeter laid a heavy rock on him in Hades. But Persephone was compelled to remain a third of every year with Pluto and the rest of the time with the gods. (Pseudo-Apollodorus, Library, 1.5.3)
Lucan may also have mentioned the pomegranate seed, but did not explicitly state who was to blame. Servius' commentary on Virgil's Georgics also describes a version that is very consistent with Ovid's.
I'll noise abroad
The banquet that beneath the solid earth
Holds thee, thou maid of Enna; by what bond
Thou lov'st night's King, by what mysterious stain
Infected, so that Ceres fears from hell
To call her daughter. (Lucan, Pharsalia, 6.870-6.881)
Pomegranate seeds do not seem to be a more particularly significant than abduction in the narrative. Their inclusion may be due to one of the following reasons: 1) a love spell; 2) pomegranates may have been forbidden to eat in secret rituals (cf. see below*); 3) both of the above, or something else.
I personal prefer the version in which Hades actively uses the pomegranate. And, just kidding, but Ovid had a very good reason for having Proserpina willingly eat the pomegranate seeds lol. (I got the number of Ovid pomegranate seeds wrong, there should be seven in total 👉👈)
*Clement, Exhortation to the Heathen, 2.19; Porphyry, De abstinentia, 4.16.6; Scholia to Lucian's Dialogues of the Courtesans, 7.4. It should be noted that these sources date from a later period.
Just found this unique Isis statue, you can clearly see the influence of Egyptian statues and the maker had a lot of his own ideas. And there are two statues of Osiris Chronocrator.
Just found this unique Isis statue, you can clearly see the influence of Egyptian statues and the maker had a lot of his own ideas. And there are two statues of Osiris Chronocrator.
Through Love, Life grows out of Death while Death itself remains irrevocable.
I don't agree with some of Zuntz's views, but this analysis is still beautiful. By the way, if the poem Philiscus dedicated to Demeter had survived, perhaps we would see how Aphrodite used love to help Persephone return—just as Persephone helped Aphrodite reunite with Dionysus in the underworld. The full sentences is below. I've highlighted some of my favorite.
It is clear, and accepted, that the pinakes show, in successive scenes, the myth of Persephone, from her abduction to her enthronement as Queen of the Netherworld; her Lokrian myth, of which many details remain obscure and which is thoroughly different from the Eleusinian.
Here is no Demeter—indeed no certain Lokrian representation of Demeter has so far been found. This means that the very essence of the Eleusinian religion is lacking—the Mother's despair, search, and wrath, resolved into final joy and reconciliation on the Daughter's return. The Lokrian Maiden does not return. She finds her final elevation, worshipped by all gods and men, by the side of Hades; the frightened girl becomes the great goddess, the Queen of the Dead. Seated on her infernal throne, on her face an expression of profound seriousness, she holds in her hands rich ears of grain and the cock, emblem of fecundation.
The maiden became goddess, and Persephone, Queen of Death, became the giver of Life—through her marital union with the Lord of the Netherworld. This marriage is in the centre of the cycle (too evidently so to require a rehearsal of the evidence) and this marriage—the union of Life and Death—is the work of Aphrodite. On her light chariot, 'drawn by a pair of Loves, male and female', Hermes guides her; he knows the way to the Netherworld; the love-genii bring her dove and a jar of fragrant ointment, emblems and means of her power. And Aphrodite meets Persephone, and the Paphian goddess proffers her son, winged Eros, to the bride; he stretches out his little hands to her, and with eager hands she receives him. Thus Eros became Persephone's own; as we saw him, on her breast, on many a statuette.
The meaning of this scene is immediately obvious; it may be illustrated by comparing a Tarentine relief less than a life's span more recent. A bride is sitting on the nuptial couch; Aphrodite has entered the room and, looking fixedly towards the bride, she sends from her right hand Eros to bring her a taenia. The consummation of marriage happens by the agency of Eros and the grace of Aphrodite. Thereafter, the Maiden is matrona—the distinction is expressed and maintained on the tablets with amazing finesse—and, henceforth, the unageing queen of the other world, whence she bestows life and fertility for those above. Eros stays with her. When Hermes once more appears, to offer, like the other gods, his felicitations, Eros stands on her outstretched arm, greeting the divine messenger with his right arm (the left hand holds the lyre: music, so we are given to understand, has its origin where all life originates). But Persephone's hand holds up the flowering lotus; she still is the Goddess of Death.
Giver of life and fertility, after her wedding, to the world above, her marriage is sterile; Persephone bears no child. It must be so, for Persephone is herself Death; she can foster, by Aphrodite's grace, all life on earth; but Death itself cannot procreate its antithesis. Persephone thus is the fostermother rather than the mother of all life. This true and deep insight that through Love, Life grows out of Death while Death itself remains irrevocable becomes visibly real on those plaques which show her lifting the lid of a large round basket to find in it, with joyful surprise, a babe or, more correctly speaking, a tiny but well-grown child, sitting up in some versions and standing in others. It is not her child, obviously. Who is it, and whose? Adonis has been suggested and also, time and again, Iakchos; but it cannot be either. The story of the child Adonis as reported in pseudo-Apollodorus and illustrated on an Etruscan mirror and a South Italian vase cannot be reconciled with the indications of the pinakes concerning the relations between Persephone and Aphrodite; it would intolerably exceed and break the complete and meaningful cycle of the scenes represented on them, to which no subsequent quarrel of the two goddesses with a final arbitration by Zeus could possibly be added; and it would anyhow be excluded if in fact the child in the basket is, on some plaques, a girl. This fact alone would suffice also to disqualify Iakchos. Since however the urge to discover 'Orphic mysteries' seems powerful enough to overcome this obstacle, we may urge the incompatibility of everything that the tablets show and intimate with the myth which tells of Persephone, a daughter of Zeus and Demeter who, raped by her heavenly father, gives birth to Dionysos-Zagreus (identified with Iakchos not before Hellenistic times—if then) and who afterwards is ceded to Hades-Pluto. Some plaques of outstanding beauty show Dionysos, in the fullness of his might, before Persephone, saluting the newly-wed; the giver, he, of the vine as she of grain. Where, in this context, is there room for Dionysos-Zagreus-Iakchos, the babe, to be torn and devoured by the Titans?
Persephone: Three Essays on Religion and Thought in Magna Graecia, p165-167
The 'brides of Hades' can be considered 'lovers' of Hades, or is that a misunderstanding? Can you explain this term? I find it very interesting, but I'm always careful when I talk about this subject.
I think that once taken out of context, this view is really just a variation on the joke that "Zeus is horny, he'll sleep with anyone."
"Brides of Hades" is not a serious term (its definition is unclear, maybe appered once in island of Kos, cf. IG XII,4 3:1241), so here are some contextual details I think are worth noting:
The women classified as "brides of Hades" by scholar are not, literally, marry to Hades. One example is Antigone, who claims she is about to marry Acheron. And from the ending, we learn that Haemon, her fiancé, secured their wedding in the underworld by taking his own life. Yet she is regarded as a prime example of this concept.
Narratively, Hades is not directly involved in the deaths of these women. For example, Agamemnon claims Iphigeneia is to marry Hades, but from the context, we clearly know that Artemis is the one who governs her life and death in the narrative and Iphigeneia was sacrificed because her father's decision.
In epitaphs, the imagery of abduction by Hades does not occupy a prominent position and does not necessarily carry erotic connotations. Anthologia Graeca Book 7 contains more than 700 epitaphs, but H. J. Rose lists only six that relate to the "bride of Hades" motif.
In choosing to liken their daughters' deaths to an abduction by Hades, parents tapped into a mythological model that highlights and expresses anxieties around gender, age, sexual vulnerability, marriageability, mourning, and acceptance.
(Bride of Hades to Bride of Christ, p121)
However, it is worth noting that in a polytheistic religious context, mythological motifs and reality are not necessarily clearly distinct. Theophile's epitaph claims, in the first person, that Hades fell in love with her and that she was a more beautiful Persephone (GVI 1989). A vivid expression. Therefore, as the Christian apologist Arnobius vehemently criticized: how do we know that the author viewed Hades's abduction of dead women as a metaphor rather than as a truly act of lust?
In short, whether the "brides of Hades" can be considered "lovers" of Hades depends entirely on your criteria. And I have a silly little way: If you believe that Olympias, the mother of Alexander the Great, was indeed a lover of Zeus, then the brides depicted on these tombstones can certainly be counted as lovers of Hades.😂
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