Out of curiosity, is the way Eram is portrayed in the final boss fight (not gonna say what so people don't get spoiled) what you actually believe they are, or just something you thought would be cool?
SOULBlazers includes a lot of ideas I don't think are necessarily happening. (Hence the disclaimer at the start of the game!)
I think what's shown in the final fight is plausible and interesting but it's not necessarily what I actually believe at the moment. It made a sick fight, though.
Toriel in Chapter 4 got hit with the Memory Loss Beam
Yesterday, I made this post:
After having a discussion with some of my friends. But, I feel like this image, as funny as it may be, doesn't actually really explain my actual thoughts on this well, so I thought I'd do a longer post.
I want to be extremely clear that this is NOT really a "Toriel Character Analysis". I do not think we are actually meant to read this in this way, because I feel like if we were, the game would have drawn attention to it somehow. I will explain more about this later, but it is very important to me that people understand I am not trying to slander Toriel as a character here, I am moreso analyzing the writing of the game here.
Okay, so let's get on with it.
To understand what is so strange, we must look back to the events of Chapter 2 from Toriel's perspective, and how things were handled there.
During the events of Chapter 2's ending, as we all know, Kris sneaks outside and slashes the tires of the car. We know for a fact that Toriel sees this.
In fact, she specifies that she checked her car. And if we look back at the prior cutscene:
She does, in fact, go to check the car! If we apply our Thinking Glasses for a moment, you could infer that Toriel is actually bluffing about the sugar in order to check the car after having seen someone outside. And, wouldn't you know it, we have evidence of this!
THEY ALREADY HAVE THE SUGAR. THERE'S A WHOLE JOKE ABOUT HOW TORIEL IS SNEAKING SUGAR FROM THE BAG.
Further, when Toriel returns after having checked the car, she's a bit scatterbrained.
She clearly has forgotten entirely about the pie, and she does not have any sugar with her when she returns. She dismisses the subject of the pie, and when Susie suggests leaving, she gives a disproportionate response and invites Susie over instead. "Oh, no, no, there's no need to do that!" is a bit of an overreaction to Susie suggesting she's going to take the daunting task of... walking home.
My point here is that, in this scene, when Toriel is hiding stuff from Kris and Susie, it is very clear in the writing. If you stopped playing the game right here, before hearing Toriel's phone call, you could very much figure out and intuit that something was very wrong. In fact, I've even seen several people, playing the game blind, make the realization that something must've happened with Kris and Toriel offscreen because of these details.
When we look back upon the prior cutscene with our current knowledge, it makes more sense. This, of course, is good writing, and there's even subtle details that line up that you're unlikely to notice the first go around (such as the sugar).
Toriel, as mentioned before, calls the police, a reasonable precaution to take. She has identified that there is some unknown danger, has ensured that Susie does not walk home alone, and phoned for help. All fairly reasonable precautions.
Toriel is specifically assured that an officer will be arriving soon.
She then falls asleep. This is a little strange to me (surely she would've stayed awake to. talk to the officer who was arriving?) but perhaps she just assumed they'd talk in the morning. Okay. Cool.
The events of Chapter 3 then transpire, which Toriel is not particularly aware of. There is then a gap of time between 3-4, in which a seemingly significant number of things occured- TV World is sealed, Tenna is found in the dark world and potentially repaired by Susie, it seems that all the recruits for castle town aside from Tenna himself are removed from the house, and on the weird route, Kris goes and talks to Noelle and brings Berdly to the hospital.
We, obviously, cannot know for sure what happened between chapters. However, the important stuff, Susie recaps for us.
We are told by Susie that Toriel wishes to throw Tenna away.
And then, we get to the actual start of Chapter 4, and this is where I think the actual problems begin to show up.
Throughout the entirety of 4, Toriel basically has no thoughts, explicit or implicit, about anything that has happened. It's like she completely forgot everything that happened the previous day.
To start with the most minor offense- It does feel a little strange to me that Toriel has no real thoughts on what happened to the TV or, say, the shadowguys around the house. Even one line of dialog would've done wonders here. But, you know what? Out of everything I'm going to talk about here, I think this is probably the most reasonable. I think this should've been, like, implied somewhere, but, you know what? Sure. I can buy that Susie and Kris made up some lie offscreen to cover everything up. It's not unreasonable to say that they might've made up some story about accidentally hitting the TV or something. I think this is perhaps a strange writing decision, but, hey, it's. easy enough to intuit what might've happened.
Everything else though... not so much.
To recap: From Toriel's perspective, she saw someone prowling around outside, and this someone completely destroyed her tires. She called the police for help, but they never showed up. This entire situation is still unresolved. Given how clearly nervous she was in Chapter 2 about the situation, we should expect to see similar concern in Chapter 4. She has had more time to compose herself, so perhaps it'll be a little more subtle this time, but in general I would expect there to be implication that she's uneasy.
So, the chapter starts, and Toriel invites Susie over to church.
I have seen some argue that this is supposed to be because she's concerned about Kris and Susie being out alone and needs an excuse to keep them both close. I am unsure if I buy this. The suggestion seems a little too earnest to me, and given that Toriel is in the choir, she absolutely was already going to go anyway. You could argue that the fact she's bringing Kris along is strange, but, to me this really doesn't read as "keeping the kids close" as much as it does "Toriel trying to give Kris and Susie something to do as friends", but. Sure, I guess we can argue this is a little unusual, so maybe that is the reason.
After Church, Toriel politely suggests we go to the diner. You could, again, read this as her trying to ensure we're both safe and inside.
To steelman this the best I possibly can: she does seem to imply that she herself is coming too when she makes the invitation:
Which would strengthen the idea that she's specifically trying to continue inventing things to do that keep the kids in sight.
I will grant that it is possible to read these scenes in a way that is congruent with what happened in 2. Sure. She does seem to take actions that are a little unusual that keep both kids in her sight. If it weren't for other things I'm going to get to, I'd buy that this is the extent of it.
But I have a few problems with how this is handled.
First and foremost- It is never like, shown to us anywhere that Toriel is at all nervous, uneasy, or concerned.
When we return to the house in 4, she simply says:
Which, does not really read to me like extreme relief that we're alright. She immediately gets sidetracked by the fact we no longer have our church clothes, and that's the extent of the conversation.
She doesn't, for instance, I don't know... ask us to be careful? Seem a bit too relieved that we're home? Ask us where we've been?
You easily could have had her be, like, "Oh, you were outside? I thought you were going to visit Noelle's?" or something and imply that she thought we were safe there.
More importantly, the fact that the police never showed up is never like, addressed. Surely after calling, and being assured an officer would be sent, and then... nothing happening, she'd. investigate that? This, to me, is the biggest point of contention. Why is this never acknowledged.
What does she think happened? It's not exactly secret that Undyne is missing:
Napstablook readily admits this the moment we start talking to them, and the police station is actively closed because of her being gone. Had Toriel made literally any attempt to investigate why the police never showed up (and, I feel like it's very in character for her to care about that???) she would've learned that Undyne was missing.
Napstablook even says that "no one" has seen her, directly implying that they've, like, asked around and multiple people have noticed she's not around.
Did Kris and Susie make something up? I don't see how they could. Susie had no clue that Undyne was called, and even if we're saying that somehow they pulled it off regardless, that's really the kind of thing that should have been... implied somewhere?
Further, Toriel doesn't even answer the phone in Chapter 4!!!
Busy?? DOING WHAT!?!?
THE PHONE IS RIGHT THERE, TORIEL ???
I'm sorry, I find it hard to believe that Toriel is, like, secretly super worried about everything and is just trying to play it cool for the kids when she's completely ignoring her phone and doesn't seem to concerned over the fact we're running around town on our own.
Why didn't she follow up with the police? I've heard some suggest that maybe she assumes the police handled it while she was asleep... but what? No? That's. not how that works? Even if they 100% figured out what happened, they'd absolutely tell you. At minimum, they'd ask you for your statement on what you saw. Even if they didn't figure anything out, they'd still tell you that.
This is a very small town, Toriel probably knows Undyne personally. In fact, it's kind of implied Undyne normally goes to church:
So surely they've at least met.
And, like, again, nowhere in 4 is it really implied directly that Toriel is like, nervous or anything. She never pauses, she never, like, makes statements that don't actually make sense, etc.
It feels really weird to me to go from Chapter 2, where she clearly was nervous, and we could actually discern this from how she was written and the choices she makes, to Chapter 4, where she never really appears to be uneasy and you really have to squint to make it make sense.
It's to the point where I have seen it seriously unironically suggested that the Knight's weird purple beam:
has some sort of memory loss effect and she straight up doesn't remember what happened.
And I'm not joking, like, three different people I know independently came to this proposal. It seems a lot of people do think that she makes sense in 4, but, like, it really doesn't read well I feel.
The crazy part about this to me is I feel it would've been so easy to improve this. Even just one line of dialog where she tells us to be careful, or, like, you could have her be surprised we were out alone / make it clear she in the moment overlooked that by escaping asgore she was leaving us alone, or, hell, you could even have her directly warn Kris and Susie that someone was outside last night!
You could straight up just have her be like "I'm very glad you stayed over, Susie... I did not want to concern you, but last night, I think I saw someone outside. It was probably just some teenager pulling a prank, but please be careful, alright?" and then you can have Susie think this is The Knight or something. Given that it's implied Susie does not realize Kris made TV World, Susie probably already assumes The Knight made TV world, so this doesn't really change anything.
Or, you know, you could have her answer the phone and be a little too concerned that we're calling, or something. (Seriously, why is there no toriel phone dialog in 4????)
In general, to me, while people have been able to invent explanations, I've yet to hear one that actually feels like it's directly supported by the text. Again, I am reminded of how, in Chapter 2, there was very clear textual evidence that something was bothering her, and a handful of details make more sense with hindsight. With Toriel in 4, it really doesn't read to me like she's secretly super concerned and is trying to hide it- it really does just read like she's pretty normal and just trying to ensure Kris and Susie have a good day.
Ultimately, to me, this all just kind of feels like a plothole. Like they just somehow actually forgot that Toriel probably should be a little more concerned. And, in my eyes, the fact that this kind of confusion can happen is probably indicative that something was not communicated well. I really do think that even one line of dialog could have remedied this...
And, I don't even think this complete lack of action/awareness is the point, either. I really feel like if that were the case, it'd be more obvious? Most people I've talked to seem to have also "forgotten" that Toriel was supposed to be concerned. It's something that's quite easy to overlook while playing, because by the time Chapter 4 starts, you just went through the entirety of 3, and so the exact tone of what just happened in 2 isn't as fresh in your mind. It doesn't really feel like the game is actively trying to suggest that Toriel is immensely negligent in this way. There are instances in this game of Toriel being a bit unaware but I really don't get the impression this sort of thing is one of them. (Again, I feel like if it were a deliberate choice that she overlooked that by escaping Asgore she was leaving the kids alone, this would've been more clearly brought up? Like, maybe when we come home she could even directly apologize for leaving us alone earlier and expressing relief we're alright, etc)
I could also briefly talk about the fact that Kris and Susie dissapear for most of the day and are home really late... though, I think it's much clearer that this is like, a deliberate decision on the narrative's end. Clearly, Toriel was distracted, and being drunk with sans probably played a role in that. That's not really a problem to me, and not really what this post is about, it's just kind of the cherry on top of the everything else.
In any case, that's about all I have to say. This was much less structured than my typical theory posts, and is more of a rant if anything.
vagueposting king (I love halfbreadchaos but that video was NOT it)
Nah, ERAMB's been an idea going around since the start of the 3-4 era, this isn't pointed directly at them or their video.
I really don't think ERAMB is it, though. Seems extremely strange to me for him to be all "What's best for Kris?" and then immediately go guilt tripping them over the weird route.
People want Ramb to be this super knowledgable guy who truly understands the implications of the sword route and etc, possibly even being ERAM directly... and this guy doesn't even know about the knightspiracy.
I love Ramb but he's not a Knower. He's like the definition of "Bro thinks he's on the team".
Every single newsletter, without fail, has had a slightly different syntax for the name.
You'd think the last two are the same, but the fall one doesn't have the / between undertale and deltarune.
Place your bets, folks, what's the next one going to be..?
Every single newsletter, without fail, has had a slightly different syntax for the name.
You'd think the last two are the same, but the fall one doesn't have the / between undertale and deltarune.
Place your bets, folks, what's the next one going to be..?
