The Giant "Is RAMCOA, now OEA, antisemitic?" Debunk
Here's the last version. This one is... wow.
So here's the thing, this has taken me way too long, so here's the format:
- A summary of my point.
- A ramble about my point written forever ago.
- All the possible talking points discussed or debunked
You can just scroll to the bottom until you see "DEBUNK" if you really want to.
I'm tired. No one has time for this bullshit. This post isn't formatted the best--that's what I get for doing this on mobile. Take it as it is, the links are all included.
The ISSTD (the International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation) and the OEA (Organized and Extreme Abuse) sig (special interest group) are not rooted in antisemitism. The "facts" against the ISSTD are twisted and unclear, and they aren't meant to help Jewish people or survivors. They discredit the ISSTD and the trauma basis of CDDs (complex dissociative disorders).
The Satanic Temple (TST) and Grey Faction (GF) aren't just protesting medical malpractice.
They believe that the DID diagnosis is the malpractice.
They believe that CDDs are a fad created by and from the panic of the 80s, that it's PURELY iatrogenic in nature (caused by therapists, iatrogenic is a specific arm of the fantasy theory) and therefore any proof that DID exists and is rooted in trauma is seen as some kind of direct insult to them. As if DID being real means that Satanic Ritual Abuse (SRA) must be real, and SRA has always been, and always will be, an attack on TST.
They believe that SRA and Ritual Abuse (RA) are one in the same (good thing the ISSTD renamed it :) ), and that SRA cannot be separated from other conspiracy theories like MKUltra.
TST be like:
Alt text: a meme photo from The Office saying "They're the same picture".
The rumors and claims that you see talked about primarily come directly from a letter by The Satanic Temple and Grey Faction, written in 2019 to try to have the ISSTD's Continuing Education certification revoked. This is where the resurgence starts and what got lights on all this.
They (that is, TST and GF) seem to believe that this letter played a part in the name change, claiming that it scared the ISSTD.
For some reason, the CE certification thing seems to really stand out to GF and TST, and they can't quite keep their story straight about what the issue is-- whether CE Learning refused to accredit any courses on "mind control" (they didn't, the ISSTD created their own system for CEs and stopped hosting on CE Learning), or whether it's just because they're attacking a therapist who gave a mother -- that would go on to kill her son -- some resources, and decided that meant she should never practice ever again (because they're angry that the ISSTD implied that they're using the tragic case for their own gain, the drama between these two groups ffs).
The letter, the name change, the rise of QANON, and finally, the resignation of GF leadership, would result in what we're seeing today.
Grey Faction and the TST are the root of every over-exaggerated rumor you hear, and this post intends to prove that.
It's not so much about debunking every claim -- because yes, bad things happened to a lot of people during the panic -- so much as an attempt to arm you with more information about the topic or situation. That way, you can make your own decision about whether the claims hold up to scrutiny and support a narrative of antisemitism and conspiracy within the ISSTD, or whether TST and GF continue to push their own agenda and the same dozen lies from over 3 decades ago during a time of societal uncertainty.
Not everything you read is accurate and true, and this entire situation highlights the need for media literacy and investigation.
So let's go.
Summary:
So, all of these talking points can be DIRECTLY linked back to GF/False Memory Syndrome Foundation (FMSF), and them alone, they're the origin.
You can't spout those points and say, "But don't trust Grey Faction."
Those are the things you can't trust about Grey Faction.
You can't say that they're right about, and the source of, all of these things, but wrong about implanted memories, because ALL of their content is a story that leads UP to the existence of false and implanted memories, in support of TST and discrediting their relationship to the panic.
There's no other conclusion.
They only care about putting the TST in a better light, even if that hurts survivors.
And we know they don't care about Jewish people, because the TST is openly antisemitic.
The below is a direct quote from Lucien Greaves, massive TW for antisemitism:
Like, I think it’s okay to hate Jews if you hate them because they’re Jewish and they wear a stupid fuckin’ frisbie on their head [correct term: yarmulke or kippah] and walk around [and] think their God’s chosen people, but it’s not okay to hate somebody [‘born of Jewish blood’] just because their parents were stupid fuckin’ Jews and wore stupid frisbies on their head and thought the Jews were God’s chosen people […] Not everybody of Jewish blood is okay with me, it depends on if they follow the Jewish, uh… […] Satanic Jews are fine.
My ramble:
You don't get to pick and choose what to believe when it comes to Grey Faction. If their claims about the ISSTD being the instigators and maintainers of the satanic panic is true, then they must ALSO be correct about false memories.
They can't be a trustworthy source for some things and not for others, because these concepts are intertwined completely.
False memories and the idea that the ISSTD is filled with conspiracy theorists that still believe in SRA go hand in hand. Iatrogenesis, implanted memories, hypnosis, and coercion. They believe all memories recovered in therapy are false. The recently dissolved FMSF focused on all forms of abuse, getting involved in murder cases (testifying on the side of perpetrators to discredit witnesses and victims by proving that memory is unreliable), rape cases, and of course, incest cases (I tried to find a good link to put here, just google Elizabeth Loftus testifies). TST and GF are solely focused on DID and the ISSTD, but the idea is the same.
According to GF, memories of abuse, especially ANY form ritual abuse, are fake and implanted, and anyone who supports recovered memories are SRA conspiracy theorists, AND THE TST DOES NOT DO THE SRA. They are very, very adamant about this.
Do you see how this works now?
They are also the source of the claim that the ISSTD and RAMCOA are antisemitic, despite being antisemitic themselves.
No, seriously.
On the Psychological Projection of Antisemitism by Satanists
I highly suggest giving this a read if you want to know more.
I contend that GF and TST are antisemitic (see above) and trying to shift attention, and are keeping the panic alive on their own (see below)
I'm going to elaborate with a disjointed ramble
Grey Faction can't be trusted because everything they do and say has the ultimate end goal of proving therapists implant memories of abuse in their clients. See my last post about SRA and the memory wars.
Like, if Grey Faction is correct about all their assertions about the ISSTD and its members, then they must ALSO be correct about false memories, because those ideas are completely intertwined
Alt text: A gif from Ralph Breaks the Internet with Ralph saying, "One cannot exist without the other."
And yet, the same people telling you that RAMCOA, now OEA, is antisemitic will also tell you not to trust Grey Faction and that they're not a reliable source
Alt text: A screenshot from a reblog, stating, "reminder that the Grey Faction sucks." For context, Morlock has been posting that RAMCOA/OEA is antisemitic.
Which is it?
We know, for a fact, that "false memories", as presented by Grey Faction and the False Memory Syndrome Foundation, are not nearly as black and white as they would have you believe. This article is going to be a fantastic starting point to understand what exactly FMSF, TST, and GF are arguing about memories, and the ISSTD counterarguments. It's a very long read, but well worth it.
Recovered memory therapy is the hot topic here. Grey Faction would have you believe that the ISSTD still practices this therapy to this very day.
Alt text: A gif from Are You Afraid of the Dark. A teen throws powder into the fire, setting the scene for a spooky story.
They don't.
Grey Faction's proof FOR false memories is the ALLEGED and SUPPOSED behaviour and words of the ISSTD members under fire.
Despite the numerous allegations of TST and GF misquoting and twisting quotes. You'll see this later.
These are the same stories people are repeating now, in support of the relation between RAMCOA, now OEA, and the satanic panic, and therefore antisemitism.
Lucian Greaves was literally told at one point that medical malpractice can be fought without attempting to discredit DID and his response was basically, "How?"
Hopefully this link works (you'll need to be logged in to see), but if it doesn't, search Lucien Greaves' interactions with TheRingsSystem on Twitter for a truly enlightening experience on how this motherfucker interacts with the world.
DOES NO ONE ELSE SEE THE PROBLEM HERE?
The Debunk
Before we start, I want to look at the type of lies and twisting that we're going to see, give you an example of what to look for. I came across this article while I was making this post.
ISSTD Exposed: A Culture of Conspiracy, Grey Faction
This is more about the ISSTD's CE credits and the name change. This line in particular caught my eye, because for once it had a link.
Numerous threads mention “Satanic ritual abuse,” usually abbreviated as “SRA.” Michael Salter, on the Board of Directors of the ISSTD, in one comment refers to “SRA” as an “insider term” that should be avoided when talking to “outsiders.”
Oh, ominous.
Given the opportunity, I'm going to look and see what really happened.
Let me paraphrase. A very awkward, potentially troll student account asks about the origin of the term mind control. She then goes on to describe how she's terrified of using this language around outsiders, as it'll destroy her credibility with its supernatural and conspiratorial background and create barriers in the conversation.
Michael Salter responds that the term originated during the Cold War along with brainwashing and is very outdated, and no, it's not received well outside of RAMC Specialist Circles. He tells her organized abuse is the better term and goes on to explain that organized abuse is a general category for sexual abuse involving multiple perpetrators, that includes practices such as ritual abuse, child exploitation material and mind control. He says, "We see a spectrum of ritualistic or controlling behaviour in organised abuse - ritual and torture is sometimes present, but often not, and it occurs in many different ways and at different levels of severity."
I speak directly with police and policy makers about the kinds of torture that we see in organised abuse, including the intentional inducement of dissociation, but I would never use the term "mind control" with non-specialists. It's associated with movies and television more than "real life". At the same time, it's a useful shorthand amongst people who specialise in RAMC and we haven't found a good substitute for it. It would be good to develop a more contemporary vocabulary I think.
This comes back.
The thread then goes on to discuss other options for terms and "soft exposure" through media being the connecting language that allows clinicians to communicate with a general audience, and bad/inaccurate representation in media and online. Another clinician responds that she agrees with Salter, explaining that she doesn't want other providers or their clients to misequate media depictions to real life.
Michael responds to her about an ongoing research project looking into the perception of the term, talks about differences around the world in the view of the terms, and discusses pedophile and other "cult-like" organized crime groups. That's about as close as we get to any mention of conspiracy theories or satanism.
They talk about whether it's better to choose terms that confront the horror of the experience, or if they try to conceal that horror with a more generalized term.
Tara Tulley, who we talk about below, makes an appearance to say that most people who contact her about RA only know SRA, and it's an incredibly inaccurate depiction of organized abuse. Tara says that she's struggling to get people to separate RA from SRA, and to change the terms they're used to.
Michael finally says:
Thanks Tara - agree that we should use the terms that people are comfortable with and understand. It's just that "insider" terms like SRA and RAMC are translating poorly to "outsiders" like law enforcement, other mental health contexts. I guess we just have to be mindful of our audience.
Remember what the complaint was. Go back. Read the actual thread from the ISSTD yourself. And then reassess.
Nothing about the ISSTD thread was inappropriate or hinted at conspiracy theories. It was actually an incredibly productive conversation for everyone involved. It really painted the picture that everyone wanted to separate old SRA ideas from the reality of organized abuse, or RA, as it was most commonly known.
In fact, it explains the exact thought process behind the usage of the terms and how they actually apply in the world. Like how its handled with police.
Because yeah, police kind of suck at handling and believing these kinds of claims.
Mostly because the TST won't let it fucking die. They won't stop equating it.
So here we are, with
Michael Salter, the conspiracy theorist.
Let's look at some of these claims directly from the horse's mouth and see where they come from.
There's now a second post, too! Exciting!
I want to start with the ONLY point I agree with.
Ritual abuse and satanic ritual abuse are inherently linked terms.
Which is why it's now called OEA.
Keep this in mind. We're arguing about something the ISSTD already addressed and fixed. RA and SRA are too closely linked for comfort. So they renamed it.
Back to that horse, though. This horse is different from other horses because this one believes that the abuse itself is real. Most don't, which is always a red flag.
This saves me from having to prove that, at least.
Starting from the top of post 1:
Alison Miller? Quack conspiracy theorist loses her license.
ISSTD Therapist Loses License Following Grey Faction Complaint
Alison Miller has turned in her license as a result of a Grey Faction complaint
Alison Miller was retired at the time of their complaint. There's no license to hand over. She hadn't practiced in years. GF claims, very boldly, that they are the reason her license is suspended, and they are the ones continuing to push this ridiculous lie.
Source: Grey Faction
George Bergen's claims against Colin Ross (and others, because Ross is not named in several of the filings).
Links to an affidavit from 1997. Bergen a member of the False Memory Syndrome Foundation. In fact, HE CREATED AND RAN THE CANADIAN MANITOBA BRANCH. And he's kind of racist against native people. Fuck that guy.
Bergen is filing the affidavits on behalf of his wife's sister, who committed suicide in 1986. There's VERY little information on his wife and the suicide, but it's important to note that his wife left him before he filed and has never retracted. He even writes about her as, "my estranged wife who has not (yet) retracted."
Just something for thought. I think there's some shit we don't know about here. Anyways, the case was tossed out. We touch on this again in the second post debunk.
The second link is... oh. Wow. Grey Faction and The Satanic Temple themselves.
Doug Mesner is one of the many names of Lucien Greaves, the antisemitic asshat mentioned above. He runs The Satanic Temple. He's also the one who posted and hosts the affidavit package. He helped Bergen write it.
It's getting kind of funny that the openly antisemitic person is accusing other people and things of being antisemitic. It's almost like a racist is attempting to divide marginalized communities into hurting each other using soulless buzzwords. How weird.
Source: FMSF
Braun and his license.
The link is to psychsearch, owned by Ken Kramer. He's wild. It's always funny to me when he comes up.
So, Braun did lose his license after the case of Patricia Burgus (not to be confused with Bergen above), but it's important to note that Burgus already claimed to have 20 personalities when she met Braun. He didn't give her MPD or implant memories.
For this, you need to use your imagination a bit. Braun and Burgus met in 86. She was his patient for 6 years, as the panic started and blew up. At the time, the purpose of the ISSTD was to quickly develop urgent treatment guidelines, which didn't yet exist. These doctors were flying by the seat of their pants. Yes, mistakes were made, but the ISSTD has always acknowledged that. These were unprecedented events, and no one knew what to do. The ISSTD members of the time took the stance that their clients, often children, were telling the truth.
It's not implanting memories if you're asking your client to elaborate.
Please remember that we don't know what happened in all of these cases. It is, unfortunately, more likely that clients came up with these stories themselves, and were encouraged by the therapists asking for more information.
Braun was not convicted of any wrongdoing, it was a settlement case paid out by the hospital's insurance company. Braun wanted to go to trial to disclose the transcripts, where SHE makes the claims. She even said in an interview, “It fit in with everything else [Braun] told me I was saying in therapy."
Braun would then go on to lose his license again for over prescribing medication in another case.
Source: Grey faction supporters twisting truth in a case that can't be disclosed due to confidentiality
Salter and the tunnels
Let's see what Salter says (PDF)
The findings of an archaeological dig at the McMartin preschool site, which uncovered recently backfilled tunnels and ritual articles in accordance with the children’s disclosures, came too late to counter the momentum of the backlash (Summit 1994a).
It's interesting that he cited something there. Hmmmm. I can't actually find the paper but I did find a FANTASTIC summary of it. Summit references an archeology report that was released in 1993 that found evidence of tunnels, which turned out to be something else unrelated. The revelation came to light in roughly 2002.
The paper by Salter was published in 2008, long before he became involved with the ISSTD. He was likely still in school when he wrote that short piece, and he doesn't typically include it on his CVs. I wonder why.
I also want to look at this.
It's really important because it talks about how believable the surveyor's report was and why so many fell for it.
Salter has never spoken of the tunnels again. We talk about Salter again in post 2.
Source: Grey Faction twisting truth for two decades
Tara Tulley?
What's linked is a consent agreement between Tulley and the board of licensing, hosted on the TST website. Much like Braun, this is a case of the board and licensee agreeing not to go to trial. Within the agreement, Tulley disputes the facts against her but understands that this is a quicker resolution for all parties.
The main issue actually seems to be her application for renewal not being filled out correctly, and Tulley explains that she didn't realize the investigation was active at that point.
But yeah, I'll admit, Tulley is a weird one. Very weird.
Source: Does Grey Faction have nothing better to do?
George Greaves?
I can't get this link to work. He was only ever a member of the ISSTD for a single year around 85 or 87. He was more involved in Ridgeview than the ISSTD. He lost his license in 94 and never really surfaced again. Why are we talking about him? Are we trying to say the ISSTD is terrible because of very short run-ins with shitty people?
Source: Grey Faction sure does like talking about him considering how long ago that was and how little he was involved.
Francois Saculla?
WAS NEVER INVOLVED IN THE ISSTD, YOU FOOLS. He attended the APA's MPD workshop in 79. Ohhhhh, scary. Get it right.
Source: the horse only
Eileen Avani?
In the linked consent order (again, like Braun), Avani doesn't admit fault, and the board actually accepts her explanation and proof that she wasn't actually offering services or treating the roommate.
It's frustrating, because this document doesn't actually talk about Avani not reporting trafficking or anything. I can't actually find any information on that. Where did the horse get those claims?
I'm genuinely asking, because even Grey Faction doesn't make that claim. I feel like people are just playing broken telephone with links.
Avani was assisting someone who had been trafficked in childhood. There was no duty to report, and she was passing the client along to and assisting another treatment provider.
And that's post 1.
I HIGHLY urge you to google each of the above names followed by ISSTD, and just take a glance at what comes up.
(Spoiler: it's ALWAYS Grey Faction, you'll be hard pressed to find anything that isn't directly GF, or citing them in their own article)
Jfc, okay, post 2, which is from the horse's friend.
This one is so much longer and annoying.
To start, again, the ISSTD came together to handle the surge in cases, seek support from other clinicians, and to develop treatment guidelines. The panic started BEFORE the ISSTD. The Chicago clinic opened to take the huge numbers of people claiming to have MPD, amid the growing satanic panic. The ISSTD didn't come into existence and then all these cases appeared. Patients from across the WORLD, already claiming to have MPD and memories of SRA, were being referred to the newly opened clinic, created to TAKE THIS SURGE IN PATIENTS.
The panic started in 1980, after Michelle Remembers was released, and the ISSTD formed in 84, not 83 as stated by the horse's bff.
But where did we get 83? From Richard Noll, star child of the FMSF. I talk more about him further down.
Spiegel, Kluft, Braun and Miller all responded to this article, calling it inaccurate, but because the article keeps getting posted and pulled, it's hard to find originals.
So did Frances, and we all hate him.
There are so many claims in this post that are uncited, and by the time you finish the articles, you forget what you were fact checking. I don't know where the claims about SRA in the DSM come from, because it's not in the article linked.
I mean, the link even goes so far as to speak positively of Braun and his changing mindset.
Many psychotherapists who have been vocal about a supposed epidemic of sexual abuse by well-organized satanic rings have grown more cautious of late. "There's clearly been a contagion, a contamination of what people say in therapy because of what they see on TV or read about satanic ritual abuse," said Dr. Bennet Braun, a psychiatrist who heads the Dissociative Disorders Unit at Rush-North Shore Medical Center in Chicago.
This would imply that Braun got better about all this over the years. If that's the case, why are we still saying he believes all that?
I'm starting to get the feeling that no one is reading their own links
But that's Braun, what about Colin Ross?
Ross was never found guilty or convicted of malpractice, as the horse's friend claims.
Ross has been named in several suits, but never convicted. Ross is the most vocal about what a confusing time this was, how hard it was to tell fact from fiction, and how hard it was to balance dis/belief with neutrality.
And of course, we link directly to Grey Faction about the eye beams. You might be surprised to learn that Ross has a sense of humor and entered a paranormal contest. It's really not that fucking deep, people.
More about Alison Miller, who says that Grey Faction is twisting the truth.
I don't know why they threw in Neil Brick without a single citation. Oh, wait, yes I do. Their only source is Grey Faction, and Brick talking about his experiences. Like fakeclaiming.
Michael Salter, this time they admit only Grey Faction is talking about it and there's no other sources. See above.
I'm not commenting a single Wikipedia link, and these people should be ashamed for including them.
Tara Tulley, see above, no she wasn't.
George Greaves, see above.
This is so repetitive, they all say the same fucking things, and it's all wrong and skewed the same way.
The way Grey Faction wants to present it.
The wording of the next paragraph is SO telling.
The ISSTD has annual conferences, each being either recorded or documented, several of these being notably controversial. In 1988 they aimed to verify cannibalistic satanic cults who participate in human, specifically child, sacrifices, this was investigated and then debunked by the FBI.
Almost like, they talked about something to get more information on it, and got that information.
How dare they.
From 1990 to 1998 ISSTD conference guest panelists had been accused of being Satanists if they portrayed any skepticism towards the connection between DID and SRA; this is documented in several instances. (No link, An Interview with Frank Putnam, Part II." ISSTD News)
Are you saying you couldn't find a link to support you? Or are you saying that you couldn't find an interview with Putnam II? There you go. I highly suggest actually reading this to see what he ACTUALLY says. This is the line that got me. "I was accused of disrespecting victims." I think these arguments are being framed way more negatively than they should be. I don't think this was about upholding SRA conspiracy theories, so much as balancing skepticism when faced with patients' claims. It ignores that Putnam HIMSELF was called a satanist.
Clearly not everyone within the ISSTD held the same beliefs, so I'm not sure what people are hoping to prove here.
The horse's friend then goes on to link to the TST, saying the only source of the claim is Grey Faction, and it's just the TST talking about a Grey Faction letter.
TST owns Grey Faction. Never forget that.
NONE OF THESE LINKS ON THE TST SITE WORK, I'M GETTING SO FRUSTRATED
We're linked to a letter by Evan Anderson, Grey Faction leadership that would resign in 2024 because of how much the TST was inserting themselves in Grey Faction and trying to control their actions. With Anderson gone, Greaves is now in charge.
Anderson said,
I ignored a lot for the sake of the campaign. I no longer can. I can recognize a witch hunt, a budding culture of paranoia and conspiracism.
Hmmmm, interesting timing.
Already we should be calling bullshit, just because of how stupidly hard it is to find ANYONE other than Grey Faction talking about it.
The horse's friend then goes on to incorrectly state that the FMSF started because of the ISSTD, which is wrong. The future members of the FMSF were pushing false memories in the 70s. Read this post. (This is where you can find more information on Noll's associations with and support of TST.) Their claims exist outside of SRA. They want to discredit ALL survivors.
Then they finally go on to say that they tried not to use only Grey Faction as their source, but did they achieve that?
FUCK NO.
Every single reason cited for why RAMCOA, now OEA, is antisemitic, and for conspiracies existing within the ISSTD comes directly from Grey Faction, and happened DECADES AGO.
But don't trust Grey Faction.
WHICH IS IT, THEY CAN'T BOTH BE TRUE
Do you have any idea how many members are part of the RAMCOA/OEA sig? And we keep talking about the same 6 or so people, and theories and thoughts from over 40 years ago that those people DON'T ACTUALLY STILL BELIEVE. I think this post by TST might put the TST's and GF's goal best.
According to The Satanic Temple’s spokesperson, Lucien Greaves, “We are very happy that the board moved to revoke the license of Tara Tulley, but Tara Tulley is only one member of the International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation, an organization largely comprised of mental health professionals who subscribe to bizarre and harmful conspiracy theories that some of them impose onto their clients, burdening the mentally vulnerable with crippling, fearful delusions, and propagating destructive QAnon-like paranoia. It is our position that the mental health profession should do more to rid itself of this embarrassment and ensure that those licensed in the field adhere to empirically-supported clinical practices. It is our position that the ISSTD should lose all professional standing, and they should not be allowed to administer Continuing Education Units to professionals who attend their conspiracist lectures.”
The OEA sig is one of 12 that the ISSTD runs. In 2022, there were only 29 members of the OEA sig, and it by no means includes all of the members of the ISSTD that work outside of OEA. Other sigs include acute care, child and adolescent, creative art therapies, eating disorders, neurodevelopmental disabilities, EDMR, and vicarious trauma.
None of that matters, though. The TST and GF want to see the ENTIRE ISSTD burned to the ground.
The timing of this surge in RAMCOA talk coincides with the TST/Grey Faction rift, as Greaves and his chronic online-ness took over.
And what is Greaves? A racist, a man whose sole goal is to silence survivors, and an ISSTD hater.
Knowing a good deal more about the situations above, go back to that original letter and reread the complaints.
survivors using terms you decided are bad
describing abuse you decided they cannot experience
you police them due to their voices
voices you are not trying to hear
do they matter?
you found other terms
organized lists for them like a ritual
talking about how you stand against harm
while untying yourself to survivors
the worst thing about ramcoa is that after going through hell on earth you can’t even talk about it because people won’t believe you. your pain is just another conspiracy theory to them, regarded the same as flat earth or reptilians or what have you. it doesn’t matter that your brain bears the scars. it doesn’t matter even if your body does too. it doesn’t matter that your life is in disarray or that you can’t rest even when you sleep. they don’t care. you’re a stranger. why would they believe you? you beg for the world to acknowledge what is happening to people, what happened to you, and you’re labelled a liar. and they don’t even see this as cruel.
the ramcoa discourse rn is insane. I don’t think most of you have a clue what you’re talking about and I think a lot of the people arguing that the term (and any term coined to replace it) is bad are bad actors trying to remove survivors ability to accurately and concisely talk about their experiences.
The people that were blamed during the satanic panic were “satanists” which yes was sometimes applied to Jewish people but was also applied to LITERALLY EVERYONE that are counter to what Christians think is holy and good. Jewish people were not and are not the only group of people that Christians call satanic and blood libel against some jews during a much larger event does not make the terminology for a type of abuse sensationalised by the event inherently blood libel. Nor does the existence of antisemites in the academia. there are plenty of people that study and treat ramcoa that have nothing to do with any of that nonsense. There are people that talk about it and study it that are 100% conspiracy theorists and antisemitic about it. Unfortunately the nature of what ramcoa is attracts those people. Their existence does not discount that this sort of abuse does happen and needs language to allow survivors to discuss it.
Nothing good comes from denying people the RECOGNISED language for their experiences. I’d say look at what happens to trans men trying to discuss their problems on this hellsite, but I’m betting a lot of the people that are denying people one set of terms are also denying the other.
You can dislike the ISSTD. But it’s the authority on complex trauma and dissociation, and it’s not going anywhere and it doesn’t materially help anyone to act like the society as a whole is a problem. If you don’t like how it’s run you should do the work, join, and change it. You don’t need to take out your displeasure with them on survivors that are just trying to talk about what they went through using terms that are well recognised.
I am not going to put up with another community being continually forced to change their words because it’ll never be good enough for people that just want us to shut up.
“I no longer have to be the person I became to survive”
I wish I could say that. I became a new person to survive yesterday. I can’t even be the person that the alter I split from wants me to be. I don’t know what to be to survive but I became anyway. I have to be someone. I probably am not making sense. I want to scream. I want to cry. I want to die a little.
Inner Child
The older I get, the more I keep my inner child locked inside. I used to talk more about my past, about my dysfunctional family and how they've hurt me. But these days I feel pressured to be positive, to only paint happy things because the world is sad enough already.
Since being diagnosed with CPTSD, I've gotten therapy and it has helped a lot. But that doesn't stop the nightmares from happening and there are days when I can't do anything but cry. I used to draw myself strangling my younger self, but it never dies. There will always be a part of me that longs for a happy family, for parents that love me. Maybe one day I'll learn to co-exist with that part of myself.
Begging people to stop the fucking misinformation about alters not presenting until young adulthood. As far as I've been able to tell, this came from an ANONYMOUS TIKTOK COMMENT of some random person claiming to be a counselor and people took it and ran with it so hard. I've seen multiple trauma/dissociative specialists and all of them have said it's incredibly common for alters to be developed and presenting in childhood. I've not found a single reliable source actually stating alters do not develop until adulthood, just people parroting this information with no sources
A lot of the people I see spreading this are the ones apparently dedicated to calling out misinformation about the disorder, but if you actually read up on it you'd know that alters usually DO emerge in childhood, age 5 and a half approximately is the average according to most studies I've found.
This also makes no sense considering what we know about how DID develops. Host states are alters - they are not any more real and not necessarily more developed than other identity states. It makes no sense that only the host state would be developed until adulthood, especially considering that alters have roles they formed to take, meaning they inherently had to be fronting during childhood in order to cope with and take on trauma.
You're not anti-misinformation if you listen to randos on tiktok over specialists in the field and actual studies. Read a fucking book.
I think I know what you are talking about, as I’ve seen some videos on tiktok about this subject.
I believe what is more accurate is that alters are much less complex in childhood (in most cases, or typical cases of DID), as children have less experiences in general than teens and young adults do. So while alters in childhood are absolutely formed and defined, they *are* typically less complex. As a child grows and different alters experience more things in the world that shapes who they are, their personalities will emerge more, and from what I have heard, this is usually around the 15-18 year old age range, though this of course changes depending on the system and their developmental experiences and life experiences.
This of course varies from child to child, and in programmed systems this is definitely different because the alter’s personality is shaped and created from the get-go. Though of course, their personality and behaviors can change as they grow up and experience more of the world (and hopefully eventually begin to heal and deprogram).
I don’t go on systok (or tiktok at all..) so the video context might rule this out but perhaps this was corrupted from the generally true info that most people aren’t aware of their alters until adulthood?
RAMCOA/TBMC vs conspiracy theories. If this ends up being too long for one part, I'll make a part 2
In my intro post, I said this. To some people, especially non-survivors or questioning survivors, it may be confusing to try to differentiate what RAMCOA/TBMC vs conspiracy theories. In this post, I'm going to touch on specific theories and compare them to the realities of RAMCOA/TBMC
TW: RAMCOA and TBMC with definitions and moderate detail, CSA
Section 1- What does RAMCOA and TBMC mean?
Note- I explain RA and OA before explaining MC/TBMC because i split the MC/TBMC explanation into two parts (programming and non-programming)
RAMCOA- An acronym for ritual abuse, mind control, and organized abuse
TBMC- An acronym for trauma or torture-based mind control
Ritual abuse- A combination of physical, emotional, and s/xual abuse meant to control and condition the victim's thoughts and behaviors. It is deliberate and performed the same way repeatedly. RA will typically involve specific abuse performed the same way on the same date every year. For example, a specific "ritual" is performed every year on the victim's birthday. Typically but not always religious, spiritual, and/or political in nature. Typically involves multiple victims and multiple perpetrators. May be multi-generational, performed exclusively within a single family, performed in a cult, tr/fficking ring, or other organization/group that may be religious and/or political and can be very large or very small, performed without the victim's parents knowing in places where children spend time, or more. Many people believe that RA cannot take place without MC, but not necessarily programming. When people think of RA, they think of satanic ritual abuse. It's important to note that RA can occur using any religious beliefs and non-religious beliefs as well. When RA is satanic, more often than not it's the concept of satan being used to create fear, guilt, and conflicting religious beliefs in the child, not satanic worship.
Organized abuse- This is an umbrella term for any abuse organized with multiple victims and multiple perpetrators. OA is deliberate. Every aspect is planned by the perpetrators. This is typically seen in cults, tr/fficking rings of any type, places where children spend time, and any type of high control groups. In the case of places such as churches, daycares, schools, and camps, this doesn't necessarily mean that the entire group/organization practices OA. It may be a specific group of workers. For example, in a large daycare: Most of the staff does their job properly. They take care of the children, play with them, do activities, etc. These workers don't abuse the children and aren't aware of the abuse taking place. However, there are three staff members who are all members of a tr/fficking ring outside of the daycare. They all had all the credentials necessary to work at the daycare years in advance because this was planned within the ring for years. They all applied for the job and got it. While working at the daycare, they take small groups of children into another room and perpetrate abuse that they film for the tr/fficking ring.
MC/TBMC- Acronym for Mind Control/Trauma or T/rture Based Mind Control. There are two types of MC: programming and non-programming
Programming- Programming needs to be started at a very young age in order to work. The child is repeatedly t/rtured to intentionally cause the child to dissociate and develop a DID system that is made to function to perfectly suit the abuser's needs. The child is given cues to perform a specific behavior and bring out certain alters.
Non-Programming- This can be done to someone of any age as it does not cause DID. Typically done to prisoners of war/political prisoners, long-term k/dnapping victims, long-term abusive situations, people indoctrinated in a cult or trafficked later in life or in an organization unable to program someone. It can include willfull compliance in an extremely abusive situation, Stockholm syndrome, brainwashing though abuse and t/rture, t/rturing a POW until they switch sides and become completely loyal to the group that is holding them prisoner.
Section 2- Common conspiracy theories used in the context of RAMCOA explained, debunked, and compared to RAMCOA
Note- All of these terms overlap and are often used interchangeably by theorists. If I say that theorists claim an aspect of one of these theories, it's safe to assume that aspect is a part of the other theories.
Project Monarch- Project Monarch is a theorized CIA subsection of MKULTRA. It was first suggested by Cathy O'Brien, a famous conspiracy theorist. After recalling memories under hypnosis, she claimed she was kidnapped and that her and her daughter were victims of PM. She claimed that PM was made of international child tr/fficking rings, dr/g barons, and satanists who used TBMC to make her and her daughter into s/x sl/ves. She accused US presidents and government officials from several countries of being a part of PM and accused Bush of abusing her directly. Over many years of in-depth investigations, experts criticized her claims for including absolutely no evidence and having many inconsistencies. She claims to have a total photographic recall but remembered nothing about the alleged kidnapping abuse. Her later memories were "recovered" under hypnosis, which has been scientifically proven time and time again to create false memories more often than not. In current days, theorists claim that celebrities are victims of PM.
The Illuminati/NWO- Historically, the Illuminati was a real Bavarian secret society in the Enlightenment era. However, it was ended and banned around 1785. In this context, the Illuminati and NWO is a term used to describe all of the international elite of the world including government and royal officials, celebrities, the world richest families and individuals, elite organizations, banks and financial brances of government, corportations (known as resource control), the education system, all organized religions, the media, and all types of government including secret services, military, police, courts, and prisons. Theorists claim that the illuminati is conspiring to acheive world domination and that they are actively programming every citizen through many methods (none of these methods are used in real MC because they're impossible. also, you can't indirectly program someone through the media and education). They also claim that celebrities sell their souls to the devil and are programmed. This entire theory is rooted in anti-semetism and is still blatantly anti-semetic to this day. You can read about why it's anti-semetic here: https://www.cairn-int.info/journal-revue-du-crieur-2015-1-page-128.htm
I think it should be very obvious why this is fake. In terms of MC, some of the ways theorists claim the illuminati programs citizens is subliminal messaging in the media, 5G internet, micr/chips in v/cc/nes, and more. Simply put, programming requires prolonged physical t/rture. I think that says enough.
MK-ULTRA- MKULTRA was a very real thing- in the 1950s and 1960s. It ended in 1964. The MKULTRA subsection that ran the latest (as far as I know) was NAOMI. It ended in the 1970s and wasn't about MC. This one is gonna be short and sweet. If you were born anytime after around 1930-1940, you were not part of MKULTRA.
Section 3- Moral panics and other historical events used to deny RAMCOA and why they shouldn't be used to deny RAMCOA
Michelle Remembers- This was the book that sparked the satanic panic. In 1980, a psychiatrist and his patient wrote a book about the real therapy sessions with the patient, a woman named Michelle (who he later married) who went to him to be treated for depression. After screaming nonstop for 25 minutes and then speaking as a five-year-old, the psychiatrist spent over 600 hours hypnotizing her (I've already talked about why hypnosis is bad). In that time, Michelle "remembered" very extreme RA at the hands of a satanic cult. This was investigated for decades and there was absolutely no evidence. During an 81-day ritual in which Michelle claimed to be locked in a cage, she was attending school with no absences. She had no unusual absences any other time either. The extreme t/rture she claimed to have experienced involved her being t/rtured and c/t with kn1ves, and yet she had no scars. She claimed that during the 81-day ritual, they summoned Satan, Jesus, Mary, and Michael the Archangel who removed her scars. The most recent documentary about this book was this year. This book was used as training material for social workers and law enforcement, and the psychiatrist was called as a consultant in the McMartin preschool trial. This book has been used for years as proof for why you cannot repress and recover memories. But what it actually proves is that hypnosis can easily cause false memories, especially 600+ hours of it. Amnesia is a common symptom of trauma, and even more common for anyone with DID as different alters hold different memories. This book proved absolutely nothing about dissociative amnesia.
Satanic Panic and the daycare CSA hysteria - After Michelle Remembers was published, it was said that there were over 12,000 documented accusations of satanic ritual abuse in America that were investigated and proven false. The Kern County case started the daycare CSA hysteria. In 1982-1983, 60 children in Kern County claimed they had been abused by a satanic s/x ring. It started when two children were coached by their grandparents into saying their parents abused them as part of a satanic s/x ring. 36 people were convinced, but no evidence was ever found. The McMartin preschool trial was the second case. In 1983, a parent accused a teacher at McMartin of abusing her son. The school sent out a notice to the parents to check their children for signs of abuse. The mother was found to be a paranoid schizophrenic and an alcoholic, but not before 360 interviewed children claimed to have been abused at the preschool in incredibly bizarre, inconsistent and impossible manners. The way in which they were interviewed was found to have been very suggestive and confusing for the children. No evidence was found. The case lasted 7 years and costed $15 million, but no one was convicted. There were at least 16 famous cases that made up this hysteria. This is used to say that RAMCOA is just the satanic panic all over again and that false memories are made without hypnosis. What it actually proves is that children have active imaginations and are willing to say what adults and peers tell them to say. The children of these daycare trials had no idea what CSA and SRA were, they were claiming what parents, peers, and law enforcement suggested and coerced them to say. Also, it's been proven that researches were not able to implant memories of REPEATED CSA without the use of suggestion while on dr/gs and/or under hypnosis.
False memory syndrome + the false memory syndrome foundation- The False Memory Syndrome Foundation was an organization made to support people who had been accused of abuse after the accuser developed false memories because of therapy. It was founded by a Peter Fryd who was accused of CSA by his adult daughter, along with Pamela Fryd, Peter's wife AND ST3PSISTER. His daughter is Dr. Jennifer Freyd, the doctor who came up with DARVO and is an expert researcher in the field of betrayal trauma.
A founder of the foundation famously said in court and the media "60% of women s/xually abused in childhood reported that the experience was ‘good for them'".
Another member of the board gave an interview to a pro-"MAP" (i'm using the term instead of the real word because of guidelines) magazine. He stated " *MAPS* can boldly and courageously affirm what they choose. They can say that what they want is to find the best way to love. I am also a theologian and as a theologian, I believe it is God’s will that there be closeness and intimacy, unity of the flesh, between people. A *MAP* can say: ‘This closeness is possible for me within the choices that I’ve made.’”.
Another board member and medical professional stated when talking about therapy for CSA survivors "The real message being sold by these new therapy messiahs is the ultimate cry-baby solution to everyone’s pitiful human problems. It’s all someone else’s fault.”
And ANOTHER board member said “A friend and colleague had an adult daughter in therapy accuse him of childhood s/xual abuse.” She says, “It was my best judgment that this was unbelievable of the person I knew and could only been induced by the therapist.”. She said this while having no contact with the therapist or daughter.
Source: https://news.isst-d.org/the-rise-and-fall-of-the-false-memory-syndrome-foundation/
another good article: https://www.thecut.com/article/false-memory-syndrome-controversy.html
False memory syndrome is a term used to describe simply having false memories. It was coined and used to describe people who recovered memories of abuse in therapy that didn't happen. However, according to the British Psychological Society stated that while researchers were able to implant memories of a single abuse incident, they were never able to implant memories of repeated abuse. Memory is highly suggestible and changes every second. Every memory you have has small details that've changed over time. Elizabeth Loftus and Jim Coan were able to implant memories 6/24 participants in of being lost in the mall as a child. Wade was able to implant memories of a hot balloon ride in 50% of participants. Loftus also implanted memories of being attacked by a small animal as a child, nearly drowning and being saved by a lifeguard as a child, and having a physical accident at a wedding as a child. She also proved that people viewing a video of a car crash would remember the crash differently depending on the wording used by the interviewer. Pezdek and Hodge tried to implant memories of a painful en3ma in children, but it almost never worked. NOBODY was able to implant long-term PTSD, somatic flashbacks, total flashbacks, fear of s/x, hypers/xuality, physical symptoms of CSA trauma, strange and overwhelming emotional responses and emotional flashbacks, s/bstance abuse, SH, hypervigilance or disinhibition, trauma disorders and co-morbid disorders, dissociation, etc etc.
I think this is a sentiment we need to let people hear more- especially people with RAMCOA (ritual abuse, mind control, organized abuse) trauma. This is primarily talking about childhood trauma as that is our experience- however know that adults forced into doing horrible things to survive or by abusers, are also still deserving of knowing they are not bad people. It was not your fault.
You are not evil for the harm that your abusers forced you to do to others. You didn't have a choice- even if you convince yourself you did.
You were too young to understand or know the gravity of everything- you were scared and you did what you were taught- you listened to the adults.
I forgive any other children who harmed me because they were forced you- you do not have to forgive yours. You must though, understand they were made to be this like you were- understand they deserve to get free and be safe- away from you forever if need be.
You're allowed to feel hate and anger to other children that harmed you.
You're allowed to feel guilt and despair for the actions you've done. But you shouldn't let that get to the point you forget the context- you were never evil. It was difficult and hard but you made it out.
CW: This post will discuss RAMCOA (not in detail) and the mistreatment of RAMCOA survivors in the OSDDID community. Please read with caution.
RAMCOA survivors are treated terribly in the system community. Your trauma is seen as larger than life, not real/fictional, or too bad to talk about. Hell, I'm nervous to even mention this kind of thing because it's so heavily seen as taboo and dangerous to talk about to other people. We're not allowed to share our stories because our trauma(s) are "too severe" and "dangerous" that we're not allowed to share what we went through. I have seen people say not to Google it, and if they do that they'll be more likely to be a victim as well. Which.. just isn't true. Apply that to any other trauma where Googling the definition makes it more likely for you to experience it. Make it make sense! You don't have to share your story in any case scenario, but why are we not ALLOWED to? Why is our trauma that different? It's isolating us, which is what my abusers would've wanted. I've been told that my trauma is fake, and no wonder! We're not allowed to talk about it. Ever. Let us talk about it if we feel comfortable to, it's not your choice, it's OURS.
(TW: CSA mention, child p*rn mention, religious mention, self harm mention. None in detail, just mentioned.)
We are not a RAMCOA survivor, but we definitely understand where you come from. Our abuse was long-term, horrific, graphically sexual, and has to do with the production of child p*rn. I can't talk about my experiences without someone getting upset for triggering them or saying "this isn't appropriate to talk about, there's minors on this app!" Not just on tumblr, but places like instagram and tiktok as well. The immense amount of censorship required for the latter two platforms also makes it almost impossible to speak about what I went through and the effects it has on me. It's taboo, it's scary. I once commented something about CSA in religious communities running rampant and I got attacked by Christians saying I was a horrible person for saying that their leaders were sex offenders. (Which is not how I worded it, but whatever.) People get angry when I talk about the effects my trauma had on me. They wanna hear the "sweetly broken" bullshit. The "I had a nightmare last night :(" stuff but don't want to know that it was a nightmare about reenacting the trauma as an adult with my abusers. They give you pats on the back when you say "I haven't self harmed in 6 months!" But then criticize you when you admit that you gave in and harmed yourself the next night. Neurotypical people especially don't want to hear the ugly parts, the scary parts, or the parts that make them realize that they utterly failed you as a child and as a society who allows child abuse to occur. They wanna hear your recovery, but not the struggle it took to get there. They like inspiration porn, but don't like facing the fact that I shouldn't have to be traumatized beyond belief to be an inspiration. It's frustrating. It's dehumanizing. They don't understand I was a real child who went through those real things. They see it as just another tragic story, but don't understand how horrifically common of a story it is. NT people love saying how rare DID is because they don't want to acknowledge that childhood trauma and abuse is extremely common and prevalent in our society, including "big" traumas like RAMCOA, child p*rn production, trafficking, etc.
Sorry, I kind of rambled. I was actually just talking with my friend about how hard it is to share what happened to me, not because of the shame (though that is a factor) and the guilt, but also because of the strict policing of the DID/CPTSD/PTSD community and how "big" traumas like RAMCOA, trafficking, or the creation of child p*rn are silenced heavily because of the horrific aspects of it. Nobody wants to read about sad or scary stuff, and if they do, we have to dumb it down and censor it so heavily that the reality and horror of the situation is lost. I'm not trying to scare people by sharing my story, I'm trying to tell people that this shit really happens and it happens all the time. By sharing I want people to be aware, especially with their own kids in religious communities.
That's all I've got to say. I understand your pain. You are not alone.
We’re also a RAMCOA survivor. The isolation is suffocating. The secrets are so heavy and many and awful that they’re almost impossible to bear. Our partner…we love him dearly. But we cannot talk to him about it because of how badly it upsets him. We give trigger warnings to therapists because it has been too much for them in the past. We can’t tell our father or he’ll do something that lands him in jail. All the time I see people say not to talk to other survivors. I don’t think people understand that the suffering of not knowing if anyone else has ever experienced what you did outweighs the suffering of being triggered. Should you meet up with other survivors, tell them personal info that can identify you? no. don’t do that. but joining a server of people that went through similar things so that I have a place to ask, “is this normal?” “does this make sense?” has been invaluable.
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