Aegon II-Rhaenyra || Jon Snow - Sansa Stark : Parallels
Prince Aegon…..refused to be a part of his mother’s plans. “My sister is the heir, not me,” he said. “What sort of brother steals his sister’s birthright?”
~ The Princess and The Queen
“By right Winterfell should go to my sister Sansa." "I have heard all I need to hear of Lady Lannister and her claim." The king set the cup aside.
Was there any mention of why Sansa never got high harp training when her father was still alive in KL? I remember either Ned or Cat promised it to her, and Ned had time to find Syrio but we never retouch on Sansa learning the instrument.
No, there isn’t. Hope that helps… no, no, that’s really too short an answer, um. So, if you don’t mind, I’d like to expound on the subject a bit.
Sansa’s knowledge of the high harp is an interesting topic, although a slightly confusing one. We first hear that she’s skilled on that instrument from Arya, very early on:
Sansa could sew and dance and sing. She wrote poetry. She knew how to dress. She played the high harp and the bells. Worse, she was beautiful.
–AGOT, Arya I
But then later, Catelyn says something a bit contradictory:
“There was always a singer at Evenfall Hall when I was a girl,” Brienne said quietly. “I learned all the songs by heart.” “Sansa did the same, though few singers ever cared to make the long journey north to Winterfell.” I told her there would be singers at the king’s court, though. I told her she would hear music of all sorts, that her father could find some master to help her learn the high harp. Oh, gods forgive me…
–ACOK, Catelyn VI
And then, even later, we finally get Sansa interacting with the high harp in her own POV:
Margaery’s kindness had been unfailing, and her presence changed everything. Her ladies welcomed Sansa as well. It had been so long since she had enjoyed the company of other women, she had almost forgotten how pleasant it could be. Lady Leonette gave her lessons on the high harp, and Lady Janna shared all the choice gossip. Merry Crane always had an amusing story, and little Lady Bulwer reminded her of Arya, though not so fierce.
–ASOS, Sansa II
So, Catelyn says Sansa was promised lessons on the high harp, and Leonette Fossoway eventually gave her some… so, did Sansa know how to play the high harp back in Winterfell, or not? Well, assuming that Arya wasn’t completely mistaken (or that GRRM simply didn’t forget how he described Sansa), I think what makes the most sense is that Sansa knew a little bit of the high harp, maybe a few beginner’s songs, maybe whatever Catelyn knew how to teach her herself or from whatever the visiting singers in Winterfell knew. Therefore, she would be prepared to have further lessons from a master in King’s Landing, and Lady Leonette was finally the one to give them to her, albeit more than a year after Sansa arrived in the capital.
Anyway, back to your question. You’re probably looking at Catelyn’s thoughts about promising Sansa harp lessons, and wondering why they never came up in Ned’s POV at all. Well, other than presuming retcon (the easiest answer), the simple fact is that Ned was very very busy in KL. He already had the murder of Jon Arryn on his mind, not to mention Bran’s fall, not to mention the incident on the Trident… and the second he arrives he’s pulled into a High Council meeting about the insanely expensive tourney in his name, and immediately after that he finds out Catelyn’s secretly in the city and she thinks the Lannisters tried to kill Bran. He’s pulled from one thing to another, from one mystery to another, and he barely has a moment to breathe. According to the fan timeline, it’s only about 6 weeks between Ned’s arrival in KL and when he quit being Hand and his leg was injured during Jaime’s attack; and then less than a month from there to Robert’s death and his arrest, much of which he spent heavily medicated. We don’t see him talking over the girls’ lessons with Septa Mordane, we only rarely see him interacting with Vayon Poole who managed his household… All the little details of the Starks’ life in King’s Landing are almost entirely in the girls’ chapters, not Ned’s, because Ned just doesn’t have time for little details. (Brief moments of peace, like the night the three spent in the godswood as thanks for Bran’s awakening, are very few and far between.)
And as for Arya and Syrio… well, Ned walked into Arya’s room after she ran away from the dinner table to find his angry and depressed 9-year-old daughter with a sword in her hand. A sword from Winterfell’s own forge, and from his own blacksmith, that he had no idea existed… and that Arya had no real idea how to use. And because he knows it’s dangerous for them in King’s Landing (and because of his memories of Lyanna), he arranges her lessons with Syrio – and from the context, it looks like he had Vayon Poole search for a Braavosi water dancer in the city (like how Vayon was the one to arrange for the girls’ ship out of KL), Ned didn’t actually go looking for one himself. So… regarding Catelyn’s promise about finding Sansa a harp master… considering how low priority it was, and considering the fact that Sansa wasn’t doing dangerous or upsetting things because of her lack of harp lessons, it’s not surprising Ned didn’t have Vayon look for that kind of teacher for her. Heck, even Cat didn’t bring up the subject when she was in KL, she too had far more important things on her mind.
Also, let’s be honest, the real reason Arya got her lessons with Syrio Forel is because they’re a huge plot and characterization point for her. (Besides the fact that they’re vital to her escape from King’s Landing, and help her survive throughout everything, she’s still quoting him as of TWOW, and probably will until the very end.) Whereas Sansa’s lack of harp lessons are really not important in the grand scheme of things. Or even in her own personal scheme of things. The ones she got from Leonette Fossoway are also not remotely important – I mean, they were nice, and helped Sansa feel welcome among Margaery’s ladies, but if that sentence had been omitted from that chapter in ASOS, it really would have made no difference whatsoever. Like, harp music is one of the few things that soothes Sweetrobin, but is there any mention of Alayne playing? Nope. (Though “Alayne” may not know how to play, but either way it almost certainly won’t be a plot point. Well, probably.)
And being honest again – the real reason Catelyn brings up the harp lessons she promised Sansa is very definitely not for the reader to go “hey, Ned never mentioned them, he didn’t care about Sansa”. Rather, it’s for us to see how terribly guilty Cat feels for having promised her daughter music and culture and a happy life in King’s Landing, and therefore encouraging her to walk into the lion’s den with all the horrible things that actually happened to her. Cat hopes that the gods will forgive her for making this promise to Sansa, for goodness sake. Switching that focus elsewhere feels both inappropriate and irrelevant to me, really it does.
So… while it’s a nice little characterization point that Sansa knows how to play the high harp, and a sad little point that Ned didn’t arrange for her to get the lessons her mother promised her, and a desperately sad characterization point that Catelyn made that promise at all… the fact that the promised harp lessons are not mentioned in Ned’s AGOT chapters or in Sansa’s own should really not be that unexpected.
I've been looking through your art recently, and I like it a lot. I was wondering if you could do something featuring Jacaerys with Baela and Lucerys with Rhaena. There doesn't seem to be much, if any art of the two of them together.
(Luke, my awkward boy <3)
This request was way before of the show came out 💀 I’m so sorry, but at least there’s ton of artwork of them now :D
I had similar requests about jace/Baela, Luke/Rhaena so here u are!
And, an obvious thing, I changed my designs of house Velaryon to match with tv show yk, one thing i did like of it
Hey, I'm back with some more SanSan fluff.
After all these two have been through in their life, I just need them to be happy for once. T_T
I'm currently working on a whole bunch of SanSan artwork and it's all for my fav modern au SanSan fic "power play".
I'm absolutely smitten with that one.
Soooo, if you - like me- enjoy a tattooed-biker/hockey-player-Sandor, stay tuned. There's a bunch of that coming soon. ^^
(Screenshots because I’m one hundred percent sure i will be blocked for stating facts that go against the op’s headcanons if i were to reblog my opinions under their post and then will proceed to rant away about the eViL aRyA sTaNs whose crime is, well, reading the books, you know?)
So, i had the misfortune of coming across this one post by @agentrouka-blog when i was going through the main tags and, god! The amount of bs i have to wade through in the name of fandom experience is concerning at this point.
Whenever did Sansa cover for Arya? When she was declaring her as a traitor to a bloodthirsty Cersei Lannister that it was her sister with the traitor’s blood and not her after her father’s imprisonment? Or when she threw Arya under the bus at Trident?
“She blames Sansa for things she never did” dude there was never one moment where Arya blamed Sansa for things she never did. Hell, Arya didn’t blame Sansa enough. Guess it’s time to reread AGoT lol. Sansa “it’s your butcher boy’s fault for dying because he attacked the prince” is blameless y’all *mic drop*
“Violently attacks her because that’s her opportunity to blow off steam after a traumatic 4 days” yes because your sister is basically accusing of treason when the reason behind her actions was purely defense. Apparently you must be level headed in the face of your your sister refusing to be honest in a moment when the outcome (which is Mycah living or dying) depends on her word. If Sansa’s really as smart and intelligent as stansas claim then Joffrey’s actions at the Trident should’ve opened her eyes. Ned was the Hand of the King, the King’s BFF. She was under no pressure to maintain diplomacy. Hell, Ned was right by her side, reassuring her and encouraging her to speak her truth. What would’ve happened if she were honest? The betrothal would’ve been called off? Ned would’ve lost his spot at worst? Big loss, the North would have minded it’s own business as usual….and Sansa’s southern dreams would have shattered. In that moment Sansa chose her dreams and fantasies over her sister and remain blind to the kind of a monster Joffrey was.
Moreover, being focused and worried about herself and her desires is not necessarily a flaw, Sansa’s just more human. She’s got five heroes to compete against, which is why she may appear more flawed than Arya. But honestly it’s all subjective. Arya’s character is simply rich and has a hell lot more depth, that’s all.
Mostly Ned’s favouritism BRO NED CHOSE TO GIVE UP THE HONOUR HE VALUED hell he chose a traitor’s death for her and, goddammit there’s not one moment where he favoured one over the other. Do not talk about the damned flowers scene in Sansa I, Ned would’ve grinned and thanked Sansa for the same bleeding flowers. Sansa was just pissed that Ned didn’t reprimand his child for behaving like a typical 9 year old child. Which, nobility or no, is quite common in that society. Hell, we have textual evidence of Catelyn playing with LF and Lysa making mud pies at 12. It’s almost as if Sansa can’t stand anything short of Sansa 2.0 from her sister.
Arya’s miles better. Just ask GRRM. He wrote the books.
Anyways, thanks agentrouka for reminding me how brilliant of a writer George Martin is. The man picked stereotypical heroes and gave their stories not-so-stereotypical twists as their arcs progressed. An exiled powerless princess who earned it all and more through her blood sweat and tears, a non conformist noblewoman who’s gone through an extraordinary number of trials, a powerful noble dwarf unwanted by his own blood, a disabled boy with unparalleled magical potential and a bastard from two powerful, magical families who was practically thrown aside.
game of thrones made a lot of Choices with this plotline but in the end it gave us them… and I haven’t stopped thinking about it since. was happy to find out i’m not the only one who felt this, as there’s an event dedicated to them! so here’s a pic for #soupversary2023
jon, he'd said, but jon was gone. It was lord snow who faced him now, grey eyes as hard as ice. - samwell I, AFFC.
he remembered eddard stark, riding the length of aerys's throne room wrapped in silence. only his eyes had spoken; a lord's eyes, cold and grey and full of judgment. - jaime VI, ASOS.
three Things in One Creature - Part 4: Wings for Food
We now know that the wings of the falcon probably represent the problem of food shortages and the hunger that people suffer in winter. So how do we know which characters represent the wings and thus save the population from hunger?
Well, although we have several characters that stand for hunger, we only have a few characters that are positively connoted by the readership.
We have Petyr Baelish who buys food to sell at a high price, but this man says in the same breath that he wants to sell the food he buys at a profit. And he does not even mention the common people but only the nobility. So for Petyr Baelish, this action is just another step towards more power in Westeros.
Whereas Sansa is a more positively connotated character, through whose point of view we also observe Baelish’s actions. So she knows about this stored food, which allows her to give it to anyone who needs it once Petyr Baelish is gone.
Bran, on the other hand, has been ruling the north in Robb’s absence, which gives him an education in politics and organisation, but when he and Meera, Jojen and Hodor are on their way to Three-Eyed Crow, the group is starving. Their leader goes hunting for deserters from the Night’s Watch and returns with meat. The allusion is very clear that these four are eating human flesh. This is not a positive turn of events, this is a low point! Bran is therefore less suitable as a candidate for the character who can avert the hunger catastrophe. As Robb’s heir, he certainly has the means to do so as Lord of Winterfell, but if the broad hints in his chapters are any indication, he doesn’t know where to look for food.
This is where Sansa and Jon come into play because Sansa knows about Littlefinger’s secret supplies in the Vale, Jon has contacts at the Bank of Braavos and knows how they can get a loan that they can pay off in their lifetime. He also has contacts with a group of hunters who provide them with the furs they need to pay the Bank of Braavos and get food. The Free Folk are struggling with the problems of winter just like everyone else, but you can already see in A Dance with Dragons that the wildlings are keeping the bargain Jon demanded of them to be allowed behind the Wall. The group there gets used to life behind the Wall and one of the Thenns even marries Alys Karstark to save her from the forced marriage of her relatives. In my opinion, this is a strong indication that the Free Peoples will slowly establish themselves in the North and will be an essential part of the solution to the food problem.
We also know from the series that there will probably be two kingdoms at the end, one in the north and one in the south, but I suspect it will be structured differently from the series where two Starks are sitting on the two thrones and one of them can’t have any more children and Tyrion suggests that from now on the kings should be elected. Something we know was actually custom in the Culture of the First Men.
I rather suspect that by blowing Joramund’s horn the Wall will be shifted and thus the Two Kingdoms will be created. It is assumed that Melissandre destroyed the Horn of Winter, but I think the horn that Mance found is the Hammer of Water. As far as we know, there are only magical musical instruments in A Song of Ice and Fire, which would also fit the title. We have a horn that summons Kraken, one that brings down the Wall, one that tames dragons, why would a magical tool that controls masses of water be a hammer? The horn Mance shows Jon Snow, which he found in a glacier in the Frostfangs, is described as black and golden. Black and gold are the colours of the Greyjoys and the horn burns in green and yellow flames, which are the colours the children of the forest have, green skin and yellow eyes. So it would not be too far-fetched that George R. R. Martin chose these colours to link to these two parties with the Horn.
It would also further emphasise the fact that we have two wings, two kingdoms and two separate solutions to the food problem. I think that in the North and the Vale, the countries I suspect are behind the new Wall, Sansa and Jon are the two people who are solving the food problem in the North with Bran on the Throne as King of the North and the Vale.
So if we end up with two kingdoms separated by a wall, then we need someone in the south to solve the problem with food, here I think it will be the Tyrells that solve the food problem. Not only is Margery Tyrell with Sansa on the hunt that brought me to the idea that the Sphinx are a reference to the true heroes of these books, but her family are the High Lords of the Reach, the most fertile corner, the crop chamber, of Westeros. Their Family Words are „Growing Strong“ and although the Tyrells are allied with the Lannisters right now, that could change quickly. In addition, this was already indicated to us in the sample chapters from The Winds of Winter. There it seems that Mace Tyrell joined him instead of defeating Aegon at Storms End.
The Tyrells and the Reach are thus the one wing, in the south, which is the other, is still a mystery to me. However, I tend to think that it is Aegon, it doesn’t matter whether he really is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen or not, it is important that Varys says the following in the epilogue to the dying Kevan Lannister:
»Aegon has been shaped for rule before he could walk. He has been trained in arms, as befits a knight to be, but that was not the end of his education. He reads and writes, he speaks several tongues, he has studied history and law and poetry. A septa has instructed him in the mysteries of the Faith since he was old enough to understand them. He has lived with fisherfolk, worked with his hands, swum in rivers and mended nets and learned to wash his own clothes at need. He can fish and cook and bind up a wound, he knows what it is like to be hungry, to be hunted, to be afraid. Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right. Aegon knows kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them.«
Varys, A Dance with Dragons epilog
I admit that the young man we get to know through the eyes of Tyrion Lannister has little to do with what Varys says. However, we should consider that Varys probably never met this young man personally and therefore will only recite the reports of his allies.
What is interesting, however, is the Varys mentioned here that Aegon knows how to fish and how to cook. That seems a little weird, considering that Varys is about to explain to his murder victim why Aegon would be the better king. So far we have never seen a king fishing, hunting has always been described as the activity which kings and nobles engage in and have to do with the procurement of food. Fishing is not mentioned as an activity of a king, not even the kings of the iron islands are mentioned as fishermen and this is a seafaring culture that is based on the Vikings! They should be able to fish and not consider it under their dignity.
That is why I believe that Aegon is the second wing to solve the problem with food in the south.
It is not important whether he is Rhaegar’s son, he lived with the common people and knows about their concerns and needs, and can therefore better put himself in them.
Now some Daenerys fans might say that Daenerys also lived among the common people and knows hunger, as Varys describes it in his speech. That’s true, but just like with Bran, Daenerys has no solution to how to effectively tackle the problem with food. Daenerys‘ solution is to use a new slave class that works for food and shelter in the fields. Before this solution has any success, dying thousands of hunger and disease in her chapters. In addition, this hallucination is one of the last sentences we know from Daenerys.
»I gave you good counsel. Save your spears and swords for the Seven Kingdoms, I told you. Leave Meereen to the Meereenese and go west, I said. You would not listen.
„I had to take Meereen or see my children starve along the march.“ Dany could still see the trail of corpses she had left behind her crossing the Red Waste. It was not a sight she wished to see again. „I had to take Meereen to feed my people.“
You took Meereen, he told her, yet still, you lingered.
„To be a queen.“
You are a queen, her bear said. In Westeros.
„It is such a long way,“ she complained. „I was tired, Jorah. I was weary of war. I wanted to rest, to laugh, to plant trees and see them grow. I am only a young girl.“
No. You are the blood of the dragon. The whispering was growing fainter as if Ser Jorah were falling farther behind. Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words.«
-Daenerys to a Hallucination of Jorah, Daenerys X, A Dance with Dragons.
Daenerys has the bird motif in her chapters with Daario and his storm crows, but no solution, just like Bran. The storm crows are mercenaries, unlike the crows of the Nights watch at the wall, which consists of a group of people who come from the most diverse areas of life and can therefore also present diverse knowledge, the storm crows only know the warcraft. So the difference with Bran is she has no family to support her in this matter.
Sansa and Jon will undoubtedly support their brother in his regency and use the knowledge they have for the benefit of the people. Which in our case means that they are the solution to the problem with food.
Daenerys has no close confidants, counsellors or family who will support her in her regency in such a way. Aegon wants the throne, just like Daenerys and because the daughter of Aerys the second believes that she still meets a false dragon, as she saw it in the visions in the house of the Undying, she will not join with her possible nephew for the good of all, but fight against him, whereby it is again unimportant what is true and what is not, but only what Daenerys believes!
So I think if a Targaryen really is part of the Solution to the Food-Problem, it will be Aegon.
In the Next Part, we will discover that a Lion does not always Means Royalty, until then please Read My other Parts.
»When the Red Star bleeds and Darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again admist smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone«
-Melissand
In my introduction, I tried to explain why I consider prophecies in the world of ice and fire to be warnings. Now I want to talk about anoth
In my last part, I wanted to show that GRRM uses Pictures of Creatures where the total of used Creatures in one Body is more than one. We ha
Let’s start with the wings of a Falcon because this attribute of the Sphinx occurs as a pair. Perhaps it applies to more than one character.
Sansa didn't really have much of a reaction to learning that Littlefinger was hoarding food to drive up prices for profit and she is currently planning a grandiose feast in the Vale. I don't think she really has much first hand knowledge of the food situation (ie. famine/starvation) in Westeros. She's never starved and hasn't been exposed much to the issues plaguing the people, like starvation and famine. She's never walked a mile in their shoes the way Dany, Jon, Bran, Arya, and Tyrion have (each of whom who have starved, lived exposed to the elements, bonded with members of the smallfolk).
Dany and Jon at least have experience trying to manage food issues in contrast to Sansa, who hasn't even come near to approaching how to handle this issue. How on earth is Sansa the solution to solving food problems?
Is Jon capable of handling food issues? Absolutely. Dany? Hell yes. Bran and Arya?? They’ve done nothing but starve for over three whole ass novels so of course they’d empathize *and* strive to do their best. Tyrion was the literal Hand of the King and defacto ruler so no one is better than him at administration.
But Sansa? Op are you serious rn?
This Sansa?
Book 6 and this is the pinnacle of her character development. Which, tbh, isn’t that different from where she started so idk keep hoping ig 🤷♀️
ignoring the fact that many dornishmen have been described as being dark skinned, and the fact *Moorish* Spain and Palestine are inspirations for the cultural makeup of Dorne aside... Why do you even care? Why is this the hill you die on? Why is "reminding" the fandom that this characters are actually lily-white paramount? (they're not).
Why are you bothered with the Dornish being viewed as non-white? And don't tell me you're not bothered because you wouldn't have gone out of your way to write a post about it otherwise lol
“many dornishmen have been described as being dark skinned” yeah well apparently the author’s idea of dark skinned are tanned white people, like the ones you find in the Mediterranean. I’d cite the sources but I highly doubt it matters you the likes of you so🤷♀️
The tags lol how cute, please keep going. Continue with the ignorance and the faux outrage over non existent racism, it’s quite entertaining.
As to why it bothers me, of course it does. I don’t like seeing my culture being thrown into a mishmash with a bunch of other south Asian cultures in the name of whatever representation suits the fandom’s fancy on that particular day. Ever heard of Orientalism? How does being racist to real world south asians to make wales-spain-palestine-Mediterranean fictional fantasy mix race look less white achieve anything?
We can talk about the fandom's representation of dornish culture being innacurate without denying the obvious FACT that the dornish are people of color, not only by the physical appearance of MOST of them, but also by the way that they get othered by the rest of Westeros, being the victims of xenophobia yes, but also RA-CI-SM. They are not only framed as different because of their customs, but inherently different, their men being considered wild and impulsive and their women lustful and wanton at their core, as part of their nature, which clearly echoes forms of racialization used against many non-white people irl. That makes it kinda gross that you try to erase their POC status when they get treated the same as real life POC, especially since ASOIAF is already so white.
In conclusion: you're cringe for wanting to combat Orientalism with racism, and keep away your skin bleaching products from my dornish babies <3
Firstly learn the difference between xenophobia and racism. Those two are entirely different concepts and we’re well past the time we continue using them interchangeably. And considering how races in the fantasy fictional world of asoiaf is much more different than irl, the difference between the two terminologies is more widened.
The Xenophobia in asoiaf deserves a separate essay but i’ll keep it short since i highly doubt anything beyond brief paragraphs would sink in. The First men have been repeatedly called savages, Children of Forest hunted down to extinction (very very reminiscent of Native Americans irl) and Targaryens all have been otherized constantly but suuuuure Aerys’ one single comment about “smelling dornish” screams PoC to you, no? How very tragically racist of you.
Second point, i’m the one who’s pathetic for combating racism with orientalsm? Like, dude do you realize the level of ignorance in that statement? Skin bleaching products huh…well ig I should have expected that from the likes of you. All that carefully constructed outrage in an attempt to come off as a woke activist and there you go shooting yourself in the foot by making such comments. Activism is limited to fictional characters only, can’t afford much for living breathing humans alas.
I refuse to educate you about orientalism. I literally cannot fathom someone thinking it’s not racism and is distinct entity or whatever. Google it or you know what, don’t. I don’t care. Remain ignorant and just do your thing- which seems to be fighting for the PoC!Dorne rights.
P.S The more you type the clearer your ideologies seem. So, thank you- for proving my point.
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