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intomysoui

Does everybody really think Dany is Azor Ahai?

Disclaimer: This is by no means an attack on Daenerys; she’s one of my favorite characters, and I totally understand why her fans want to protect her from the misogynistic attacks she faces.

With that out of the way…

I see that many fans have taken it for granted that Daenerys is Azor Ahai because she fulfills several requirements of the prophecy, such as being reborn, belonging to the right bloodline, awakening stone dragons, and the comet. Even some characters in the books think she is Azor Ahai. Everything fits perfectly, but that’s my problem—it’s all a little too neat.

I’ll never try to claim that I know how the books will end—that’s for Martin alone to decide—but it seems way too obvious to me. That’s not how he likes to write prophecies. He himself says in interviews how much fun prophecies are when they aren’t what they seem, when they trick us.

So when I see a lot of fans saying that Martin explicitly states in the text that she is Azor Ahai, and that anyone who disagrees is either someone who wants Jon Snow to be the savior or a sexist who won’t accept what’s in the text—I think that’s the wrong conclusion to draw from this discussion. The books aren’t finished yet; the only certainties we have are the ones Martin has already confirmed (aka Bran as King).

I can’t think of any prophecy Martin has given us that’s so important it would have such a direct answer.

Anyway, what do you guys think?

rainhadaenerys

So, since you asked, I just want to offer you some perspective as to why so many of us think Dany is Azor Ahai, even though many people think it's "too obvious". I disagree with you for a few reasons:

1) It's not true that GRRM doesn't write straightforward prophecies. In ACOK, the Undying give Dany a prophetic vision of a feast of corpses with a man on a throne with the head of a wolf. Then the Red Wedding happens almost exactly like that. Sure, Robb is not a dead man sitting on a throne, but the core of the vision happens in a quite straightforward way, even the part about sewing Grey Wind's head on Robb's body.

2) Dany being Azor Ahai is unexpected and subversive, just not in the way you're thinking. For a prophecy to be unexpected and subversive, it doesn't always have to be fulfilled in some really crazy or metaphorical way. It can be unexpected in other ways, like the fact that Dany is a girl, and no one expected a girl, both in ASOIAF's patriarchal universe and in the audience (maybe nowadays this is something the audience expects more, but back in the 90s, when ASOIAF was first written, it was not). There's also the fact that Dany fulfilling the prophecy in the first book, before the prophecy is even discussed, is something I'd argue most readers don't expect. And there are also some metaphorical parts of Dany fulfilling the prophecy: the bleeding star is not actually a star that bleeds, it's a comet.

3) The third reason is that Dany already fulfilled everything in the prophecy. Every requirement was already fulfilled. There's nothing more to fulfill, other than maybe Dany helping to bring back the dawn***, and I'm pretty sure she will do that, because there's just no way for Dany to not play a major role in the war for the dawn. She literally has the most powerful weapons against the Others (the dragons) and the first book even begins with the Others and ends with the dragons. There's no way for her to not play a major role. So she already fullfils everything in the prophecy, and the only thing that's left is being a major player in the war for the dawn, which is also almost certain that she will be. So in my opinion, it makes no sense to say that a character that fulfills every part of the Azor Ahai prophecy is not Azor Ahai. Like, really, I can't understand this line of reasoning that says Dany isn't Azor Ahai. The criteria for finding out who is the fulfillment of any fictional prophecy is precisely fulfilling the prophecy, be the fulfillment literal or metaphorical. If you have a prophecy that says that hero X will do Y and Z, and character A does Y and Z, then you can't just deny that A is X, because they fulfilled the prophecy. So yeah, I don't think it's possible to deny that Dany is Azor Ahai. Saying that "Dany fulfills everything in the prophecy, but she's not the fulfillment of the prophecy" is a completely contradictory statement, in my opinion. You can argue that other people might also fulfill the prophecy and Azor Ahai is more than one person, but there's no way to deny that Dany is Azor Ahai because she does fulfill the prophecy.

*** Actually, bringing back the dawn and defeating the Others is just what fans assume to be a requirement of the prophecy (and I do too), but the actual prophecy doesn't even say that. What the prophecy says is this: "When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone." So Dany did fulfill every part of the prophecy. When we say Dany is Azor Ahai, we're not assuming that Dany will be Azor Ahai in the future, we're not saying that we know what will happen in future books, we're saying that the prophecy ALREADY HAPPENED. Dany already fulfilled it, therefore, she already is Azor Ahai.

(PS: The whole Nissa Nissa story is part of the story of Azor Ahai in the past, not the prophecy of Azor Ahai reborn. But even if it was, Dany did fulfill this as well with Drogo)

intomysoui

Thanks for replying. I hadn’t seen anyone discussing these points

1. Yes, whilst writing the original post, I actually did remember that prophecy about the Red Wedding. But I don’t think it undermines my point. The prophecies about the Red Wedding appear in the second book, spoken by Pach Face, but they’re much more indirect – it’s not something that’s obvious. It’s in book three that we have the prophecy of the House of the Undying, which is the most direct prophecy. It occurs towards the end of the book, whilst the Red Wedding takes place halfway through the following book. It’s effective because it doesn’t take long to come true; it doesn’t lose its impact. And this prophecy is very much the exception rather than the rule. We have Bran’s prophecies in the dream where he’s falling with the Three-Eyed Raven, and he has several visions, many of which are still debated today. In the House of the Undying itself, there is the prophecy of the three, including the three heads of the Dragon. None of them are direct, leaving the fandom debating to this day whether some have already come true (such as those concerning the three fires and mounts) or not. So why would the most important one, which he’s been building up over four books, be the exception to what he actively enjoys doing? Because he’s already said that’s how he likes to craft prophecies – he likes the ambiguity; some are more direct, but would he make the biggest prophecy the most straightforward one, which goes against his style?

2. I agree that it’s quite subversive for the audience he was writing for. And there are various ways of writing a prophecy in a way that subverts the reader’s expectations. But that’s not how Martin said he likes it. To quote him: "Prophecies are, you know, a double edge sword. You have to handle them very carefully; I mean, they can add depth and interest to a book, but you don’t want to be too literal or too easy... In the Wars of the Roses, that you mentioned, there was one Lord who had been prophesied he would die beneath the walls of a certain castle andhe was superstitious at that sort of walls, so he never cameanyway near that castle. He stayed thousands of leagues away from that particular castle because of the prophecy. However, he was killed in the first battle of St. Paul de Vence and when they found him dead he was outside of an inn whose sign was the picture of that castle! So you know? That’s the way prophecies come true inunexpected ways. The more you try to avoid them, the more you are making them true, and I make a little fun with that."

3. She doesn’t need to be part of the prophecy to fight against the others. She may take part in the war not because she is destined to do so, but because she is someone who fights for life, as we saw with her in the Slaver’s Bay.

To say that, because she meets the requirements, she is be Azor Ahai ignores the fact that we do not know what those requirements are. She will be reborn amidst salt and smoke, when the star bleeds. Your interpretation is that Daenerys was "reborn" by emerging from a pyre and hatching stone eggs into dragons. But at the end of the day, without confirmation from the source material, it is merely an interpretation. If the prophecy is metaphorical, then she may not have fulfilled it at all; it may merely appear that way.

Bonus: In my theory Azor Ahai is a group of people, and that Dany would be part of it. But don’t hold me to that theory, it’s just something I’ve come up with in my head.

Wrote that in the middle of the night so it's not perfect and my text is already way too long

rainhadaenerys

Hi, thanks for the nice response. So, to address your new points:

1) I will agree to disagree on this one. I could point out other literal prophecies, like the destruction of Valyria in Daenys's dream, or the literal pale mare that comes to Dany, but I don't think that will change how you think of how impactful or how minor or major these prophecies are.

2) I already knew this quote from him, and it doesn't really change my mind on it being Dany, because Dany's fulfillment of the prophecy is not that literal. The only literal thing about it is the waking dragons part. Everything else is metaphorical: a) the bleeding star is actually a comet; b) Dany doesn't wake dragons from literal stone, but from petrified eggs (and the books make a point of calling attention to this: Melisandre thinks Stannis will wake the literal stone dragons from Dragonstone, and she's wrong to take that literal interpretation); c) the prophecy says "In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword", but Dany is not a traditional warrior and she doesn't draw a literal burning sword from the fire, but dragons (Melisandre also tries to make Stannis do this literally by having him draw a burning sword from the fire, and she's wrong again); d) this is not part of the prophecy of Azor Ahai reborn exactly, it's part of the ancient legend of the past, but it says that Azor Ahai got his flaming sword by driving it into Nissa Nissa's heart, and Dany doesn't do that literally either, she sacrifices her husband, her son and Mirri but they're already dead before she goes into the fire, and the dragons don't come out of Drogo's heart literally, so all of this is metaphorical as well.

Another reason why I don't think this quote means it's not Dany is that GRRM has also said other things, like this one:

“I’ve been planting all these clues that the butler did it, then you’re halfway through a series and suddenly thousands of people have figured out that the butler did it, and then you say the chambermaid did it? No, you can’t do that” (source)

If the only clues about Dany being Azor Ahai were the bleeding star and Dany waking dragons out of stone, then maybe I'd agree that this could be there to mislead us, but it's not just that. The amount of clues pointing to Dany as Azor Ahai is enormous. My reply doesn't even scratch the surface of just how many clues there are. I'm not even going to try to list them here because it's too many, if you're interested, I have a compilation of metas about magic and prophecies in these links (X, X, X). I don't think it makes sense for GRRM to plant this many clues pointing to Dany, only to say that it's not her, and he himself says he doesn't like this kind of writing (this quote about the butler is something he repeats in several interviews, not just this one).

3) a) Yes, she doesn't need to be part of the prophecy to fight against the others, that was never my argument, my argument was that she's the fulfillment of the prophecy because she fulfills the requirements.

b) We do know what the requirements are. By definition, something can only be called a prophecy if you know what's going to happen beforehand. The Azor Ahai prophecy (that is also used interchangeably in the books with the Prince that was promised prophecy by several characters) is a known and documented prophecy in the world of ASOIAF, and we learn about the requirements throughout the books:

Melisandre was robed all in scarlet satin and blood velvet, her eyes as red as the great ruby that glistened at her throat as if it too were afire. "In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him." - Davos I ACOK "It is night in your Seven Kingdoms now," the red woman went on, "but soon the sun will rise again. [...] It is written in prophecy as well. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. - Davos III ASOS

So we do know the requirements. Dany fulfills everything, many of them metaphorically.

c) "But at the end of the day, without confirmation from the source material, it is merely an interpretation." -> I think we fundamentally disagree here. I don't think there will ever be "confirmation from the source material". GRRM is not going to write a character breaking the fourth wall to say "I confirm X is Azor Ahai". I don't think he will give us an authority figure in this story that is completely unbiased and is able with certainty to confirm who Azor Ahai is. It's always going to be an interpretation. We will only ever know who Azor Ahai is by looking at the actions of the characters in the story, which is why I and many others think Dany is Azor Ahai, because of her actions fitting the prophecy.

d) "If the prophecy is metaphorical, then she may not have fulfilled it at all; it may merely appear that way." -> I think that's another fundamental disagreement that we have. If the thing the prophecy says will happen happens, I don't think it makes any sense to say it doesn't count because it has to be metaphorical or because it has to be literal. The prophecy doesn't specify that. The prophecy doesn't say "Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake metaphorical dragons out of metaphorical stone", it just says Azor Ahai will wake dragons out of stone. Anyone that fulfills all the requirements of the prophecy can be considered Azor Ahai (which is why I think it's fair to argue that it might be more than one person fulfilling the prophecy in the end), whether they fulfill it in a literal way or metaphorical way.

#asoiaf meta #daenerys targaryen #azor ahai #long post #nice to see fandom discussions be so civil and repectful of each others views

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