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#hp meta #sirius black

soloorganaas

A canonical list of times Remus told Sirius to sit and Sirius said I’m sat

Then Lupin spoke in an odd voice, a voice that shook with some suppressed emotion. “Where is he, Sirius?” Black’s face was quite expressionless. For a few seconds, he didn’t move at all. Then, very slowly, he raised his empty hand and pointed straight at Ron.

And Crookshanks was thrown to the floor as Black lunged at Scabbers; Ron yelled with pain as Black’s weight fell on his broken leg. “Sirius, NO!” Lupin yelled, launching himself forwards and dragging Black away from Ron again.

“And Harry — you owe Harry the truth, Sirius!” Black stopped struggling, though his hollowed eyes were still fixed on Scabbers, who was clamped tightly under Ron’s bitten, scratched, and bleeding hands. “All right, then,” Black said, without taking his eyes off the rat. “Tell them whatever you like. But make it quick, Remus. I want to commit the murder I was imprisoned for. . . .”

Lupin was struggling against his bonds. Black bent down quickly and untied him.

“How did you find out where he was?” Black put one of his clawlike hands inside his robes and took out a crumpled piece of paper, which he smoothed flat and held out to show the others […] “How did you get this?” Lupin asked Black, thunderstruck. “Fudge,” said Black.

[Sirius’s] voice broke. He turned away. “Enough of this,” said Lupin, and there was a steely note in his voice Harry had never heard before.

“Ready, Sirius?” said Lupin. Black had already retrieved Snape’s wand from the bed. He approached Lupin and the struggling rat, and his wet eyes suddenly seemed to be burning in his face. “Together?” he said quietly. “I think so,” said Lupin, holding Scabbers tightly in one hand and his wand in the other.

Black’s wand arm rose, but Lupin seized him around the wrist, gave him a warning look, then turned again to Pettigrew, his voice light and casual.

“Now he’s going to kill me too. . . . You’ve got to help me, Remus. . . .” Black’s face looked more skull-like than ever as he stared at Pettigrew with his fathomless eyes. “No one’s going to try and kill you until we’ve sorted a few things out,” said Lupin.

Black and Lupin were looking at each other. Then, with one movement, they lowered their wands.

Sirius started to rise from his chair. “Molly, you’re not the only person at this table who cares about Harry,” said Lupin sharply. “Sirius, sit down.” Mrs. Weasley’s lower lip was trembling. Sirius sank slowly back into his chair, his face white.

“There are dangers involved of which you can have no idea, any of you . . . I think Molly’s right, Sirius. We’ve said enough.” Sirius half-shrugged but did not argue.

“I’m coming up there to have a word with Snape!” said Sirius forcefully and he actually made to stand up, but Lupin wrenched him back down again. “If anyone’s going to tell Snape it will be me!” he said firmly.

lizlemonbennet

THIS. Like, it’s startling in POA. When I read it to my class, I was all, well, not wrong for 20 years. OOTP, too, but Prisoner of Azkaban, my god. They’d been reunited all of like, a minute, too.

I just want to add: I don’t think this in any way makes Remus “alpha.” Because I guess I need to say that? To me, it’s signs that 1) They have some kind of close relationship; 2) That that relationship consists of a component where Sirius cares about Remus enough that he stops and listens to him. To me, it’s a sign of respect, on both sides, not “dominance.”

high-unicorn-tolerance-deactiva

#hp #sirus black #remus lupin #sirus/remus

i talk a lot about how my favorite missing moment in the hp series is the one referenced when harry mentions umbridge and sirius says “you should hear remus talk about her” but like, here is the reason for that.

remus spends the whole series speaking so cautiously, hesitating before he talks, choosing his words so carefully; something i think about a lot is the rarity with which he uses contractions in his speech, i.e. its always “he will” instead of he’ll,” etc. what that says to me is that he speaks slowly, he thinks before he talks, he is measured and careful in his speech. everything he says out loud he has already gone through in his head.

and there’s a reason for that, yeah? he does this on purpose, he does it because he has to maintain this exacted control or else people are going to be afraid. if he loses it, it is going to scare people. anger from remus – a raised voice, an aggressive movement, anything – is going to be perceived as corroboration of every stereotype and prejudice that he encourages people to resist with his constructed performance as a Good Werewolf. he can’t afford to trust that he can drop that emotional wall, because the reality of it is, maybe he can’t. maybe he drops it and people say “here it is, here is the proof that he is a monster, and now we must do what has to be done to monsters.” and so through the entire series, remus is characterized largely by his restraint: what he does not say, what he does not show, what he does not let himself feel.

twice harry (and the reader) sees remus lose control: when dumbledore dies (triggered by grief) and during their fight in grimmauld during deathly hallows (triggered by shame, fear, anger, self-loathing – a lot of things). extreme situations and emotions are the only things that shake him, right, thats when he breaks, that’s when he drops that shield: when he himself is so broken that he does not have the strength to keep it up any longer.

but here is the point in the long-winded rant where i wrap myself back around to the point:

whensirius says ‘you should hear remus talk about her,” there is (to me, anyway) a clear implication that when remus talks about umbridge, he’s pissed. he’s angry. he gives himself permission to be angry around sirius and that is important to me because it means that he trusts sirius. he trusts that sirius knows who he is, and he trusts that around sirius he does not have to maintain this constant charade of being a Good Werewolf. he can be angry, and sirius will think no less of him.

there is trust there, and that’s important to me, to know that remus does trust sirius again. it’s not a shipping thing or whatever, it’s just, the fact of the matter is that remus does not perform this self-protective act around sirius. that means there is one person who remus trusts himself with, and he needs that, and he deserves that. and i’m glad that it was sirius, for a very short period of time. i’m glad that they had one another back again, that they both had somebody who understood them fully again.

and that’s my piece about it, y’know, i don’t expect everyone to care that much about this one-off line, but for me it’s important. take it or leave it ya feel me?

lizlemonbennet

Co-signed.

Again, the other time we see Remus even remotely angry is the Shack, and for a man ready to commit murder he’s still pretty damn put together. Just saying.

#remus lupin #sirius black #hp meta #wolfstar #sirius/remus

Wilful Misconceptions About Wolfstar #2

"Wolfstar doesn't make any sense because of The Prank, Sirius cannot care about Remus all that much if he would use and/ or betray him so easily."

"The Prank" is one of the key things that we know about the marauder's era, it is a bit of a lynch pin in any marauders fic and so has taken on a quasi-mythological status in the minds of the marauders fans.

But "quasi-mythological" is the key here. Because "The Prank" is never actually referred to as such in canon, it is purely a fanon name and a fanon way of thinking about the events. It frames our perspective on what happened, shapes the way we envision it, but doesn't actually come from the books themselves. So when it comes to talking about "The Prank" we have to separate the fact from the fanon.

And when it comes to looking at whether or not wolfstar and "The Prank" can co-exist, or whether one fundamentally undermines the existence of the other, I will be looking at four things.

The facts - the quotes from the books that give us the information we actually know.

The inferences - what information we can extrapolate from these quotes.

The headcanons - that mythological element the fandom has run away with.

What this means for wolfstar.

1. The Facts

The very first mention of "The Prank" actually appears in Philosopher's Stone, right near the end, when Dumbledore says:

"And then your father did something that Snape could never forgive... He saved his life."

This is not mentioned again until Harry brings it up to Snape himself in Prisoner Of Azkaban.

"I know the truth, alright? He saved your life. Dumbledore told me. You wouldn't even be here if it weren't for my dad."

And Snape, realising Harry is light on the details, fills him in:

"Have you been imagining some glorious act of heroism? Then let me correct you - your saintly father and his friends played a highly amusing joke on me that would have resulted in my death had your father not got cold feet at the last moment. There was nothing brave about what he did. He was saving his own skin as much as mine."

Later, Remus gives us the fullest account of "The Prank" that we ever get:

"You see, Sirius here played a trick on him which nearly killed him, a trick which involved me... Severus was very interested in where I went every month... had seen me crossing the grounds with Madam Pomfrey one evening as she led me to the Whomping Willow to transform. Sirius thought it would be - er - amusing to tell Snape that all he had to do was prod the knot on the tree trunk with a long stick and he could get in after me. Well, of course, Snape tried it... but your father, who'd heard what Sirius had done, went after Snape and pulled him back, at great risk to his life ... Snape glimpsed me, though, at the end of the tunnel. He was forbidden to tell anybody by Dumbledore."

Sirius tells us his own feelings about the whole situation:

"It served him right... Sneaking around trying to find out what we were up to ... hoping he could get us expelled."

And Snape and Dumbledore refer to it in a later conversation:

"Sirius Black showed he was capable of murder at the age of sixteen... You haven't forgotten that, Headmaster? You haven't forgotten that he once tried to kill me?" "My memory is as good as it ever was, Severus"

There are no more references to "The Prank" until book seven, though there is a hint of their continued animagus adventures in Snape's Worst Memory:

"I'm bored. Wish it was the full moon."

And finally, from The Prince's Tale, we learn that Snape already had a strong suspicion of what Remus was, prior to "The Prank" and that he had shared those suspicions at least with Lily.

"There's Something weird about that Lupin. Where does he keep going?" "He's ill, they say he's ill." "Every month. At the full moon?" "I know your theory."

We know this conversation actually takes place after "The Prank", because Lily references it:

"And you're being really ungrateful. I heard what happened the other night. You went sneaking down that tunnel by the Whomping Willow and James Potter saved you from whatever's down there."

This conversation is how we know that "The Prank" took place before Snape's Worst Memory (as Snape and Lily are still friends, while discussing The Prank but their friendship breaks after SWM) while Snape's reference to Sirius being sixteen tells us it happened somewhere within their fifth year - as any year prior to that Sirius would not have been 16.

So, factually, we know that Snape saw Remus cross the grounds with Madam Pomfrey and was interested in where he went. He had a theory about this which he shared with at least Lily. Sirius told him "prod the knot and you can follow him". Snape did exactly that. Depending on who you listen to, James either heard about it and raced after Snape to save him or was in on it the whole time and got cold feet. James saved Snape. Snape was hushed up by Dumbledore.

That's it for what we know. And it's not much. Which leads to:

2. What We Can Extrapolate

Although facts are light on the ground there are inferences we can make:

What Snape Knew Beforehand - Snape knew Remus went missing a lot and, by fifth year at least, had figured out that every absence coincided with the full moon. He had come to the conclusion that Remus was a werewolf, but he had seen Remus cross the grounds with Madam Pomfrey so must have been vaguely aware that Remus's condition was not a secret from the staff and that - whatever Remus was doing in the Whomping Willow - he wasn't out of bounds and wouldn't get in trouble for being there. And yet he keeps sneaking around trying to get the marauders expelled and seemingly focused on this mystery in particular. If Snape suspects Remus is a werewolf and that the staff know, then he is not hoping to expose Remus's condition to Dumbledore and thus have him expelled but is hoping that exposure to the rest of the school will be enough to force him to leave. Which leads to:

What Snape Said Beforehand - Now, we know for a fact that he is sharing his theory with Lily at least. However we can extrapolate that he is spreading his ideas wider than that. There are 2 reasons to believe this 1) It is Remus who tells us Snape was interested in where he went and had seen him with Madam Pomfrey. Remus is not inside Snape's head therefore, in order for him to know this, someone must have told him. Maybe he heard Snape himself making insinuations, maybe it was reported back to him by a third party - but Snape is asking questions out loud and that has got back to the Marauders. 2) If we look at Snape's behaviour as an adult, the way he tries to out Remus's condition to the students by teaching a lesson on werewolves and making them research it, we can see that he is a man who likes to make sly insinuations, and tries to get people to understand what he is thinking by giving them just enough information to figure it out for themselves. We see this again in The Prince's Tale when he doesn't just come out and say Remus is a werewolf but - for someone sworn to secrecy - skates very close to the truth with his "every full moon" hint. It is therefore perfectly reasonable to assume that Snape, having almost figured everything out for himself, is now asking questions out loud in the hope that everyone else will cotton on. After all, he doesn't actually have to prove Remus is a werewolf; the rumour going the Hogwarts equivalent of viral would be enough to force Remus out of the castle - and that would be one marauder down. He has both motive and form for making snide accusations in public which could get Remus into real trouble. Which leads to:

What Sirius Said and Why - we know Sirius said something along the lines of "Prod the knot in the tree trunk with a long stick and you can follow him" (Remus tells us what was said, and presumably Remus wasn't there, so this may not actually be verbatim). Now, I don't know about you, but to me that sounds like the answer to a question, or at least a reply to a comment. It does not sound like something Sirius just went up to Snape and said apropos of nothing and totally out of the blue. It is a response. And we have already extrapolated that Snape is talking publicly about where Remus goes and that the marauders know he is doing so. This, to me, sounds like Sirius has overheard Snape asking questions or making comments and he gives an (admittedly stupid) response but it doesn't sound premeditated or like it's being said with any expectation that Snape would actually follow his instructions. After all, we also know that Snape knew Remus was a werewolf before "The Prank", it's reasonable that Sirius might suspect he at least suspects, and only an idiot would follow a werewolf into their lair on the night of a full moon. Sirius has essentially told Snape to go jump off a cliff, the fact that Snape then goes and does that does not make Sirius's words attempted murder.

I've mentioned that this whole episode is never referred to as a "prank" in canon, and that's true. Remus refers to it as "playing a trick" but that isn't really a fair word to use, because a trick implies deceiving someone, giving them misinformation in order to get them to do or believe something wrong. But Sirius is not giving out misinformation, he is spitting straight facts. He doesn't trick Snape into the tree - he tells him what to do and leaves him to it.

Snape, himself, refers to it as "playing a joke" and I think that is (ironically) a slightly fairer characterisation of what happens. Sirius is telling the truth, but he is not serious in his intention for Snape to actually follow through. He is joking.

It's still stupid, it's still thoughtless, it's still dangerous and it nearly ended in tragedy (if you consider the death of Snape tragic) but it was a smart remark said to shut up someone who was getting dangerously close to the truth and trying to bring others along with him. It wasn't attempted murder. Which leads to:

How the Other Marauders Reacted - we know that even twenty years later Sirius still feels no remorse, but it also seems to be true that the other marauders didn't seem to think it was a big deal either. Remus, who is the main victim in all this besides Snape, is the one who tells us what happened and... he's fine with it. There is no residual hard feelings on display when he recounts the tale (and considering how quickly he forgives the fact that Sirius thought he was the spy - a mistake which cost James his life - I don't suppose we should be too surprised that he isn't brooding over this either. Remus finds Sirius very easy to forgive.)

We see them all together during SWM, and there are no signs of a fall out and Sirius and Remus even make a werewolf joke about the exam paper. Even if there was a rift at first, it has healed by the time they take their OWLs.

Furthermore, as quoted above, Sirius says he wishes it was the full moon, implying that they are having adventures at the full moon and thus that would relieve his boredom. These are the adventures that Remus describes as the "best times of my life", in which he left the shack as a transformed werewolf and rampaged around the school grounds and Hogsmeade. In which he frequently gave his friends the slip and there were many "near misses" which they "laughed about" later. These are not the actions or feelings of someone who is torn up with guilt over nearly killing Snape. And he has no moral high ground to take with Sirius for endangering Snape, as he is now actively endangering everyone else himself and laughing about it.

Snape nearly died. He didn't. And that's the end of it as far as the marauders are concerned. It was no big deal. Up to the point where they still feel comfortable bullying Snape in front of a large audience without fear that he will expose Remus in retribution. They know he won't because Dumbledore has hushed him up. Which leads to:

What Dumbledore Thought - We know Dumbledore hushed up Snape and did not expel Sirius, which looks rather like Dumbledore feels that Snape bears at least some of the blame and is not wholly a victim. After all, it was none of his business where Remus went every full moon and Sirius did not force him into that tree. Snape made his own decisions and is responsible for them. It's particularly interesting that, when Snape asks if Dumbledore remembers Sirius trying to kill him, Dumbledore does not reply "Yes" but "My memory is as good as it ever was", which I think can be interpreted as "I remember the incident perfectly well but I don't think it was attempted murder".

His words in Philosopher's Stone are interesting as well - where he says that Snape could never forgive James for saving his life. Now it's true that Dumbledore does not always tell the truth but - as he says to Harry - "of course, I will not lie". Dumbledore isn't telling Harry everything here, but it's clear he believes that deep down Snape recognises that he bears some of the blame for what happened. It's clear he believes James saved Snape's life, not because he got cold feet but as an act of heroism, and that deep down Snape knows that too and can't forgive him for it.

Dumbledore is used for exposition, if he says something is so then we are supposed to accept it is so - that's part of his narrative purpose. In saying James saved Snape's life and that Snape can't forgive it, Dumbledore is as good as clearing James and Remus of any involvement in "The Prank", thus telling us that Snape's version of events is not the accurate one and should not be trusted. In silencing Snape, not expelling Sirius and believing that Snape can't forgive James his heroism, Dumbledore is telling us that he believes Snape bears culpability for what happened and that therefore "The Prank" was not attempted murder but a joke gone wrong. His memory is as good as it ever was, but he disagrees with Snape on how events shook out. And thus - if Dumbledore does not think "The Prank" was attempted murder - we are not supposed to believe Snape when he calls it that either.

Sirius did not "try to kill Snape" at the age of 16. And he did not use Remus as the weapon to do it. He made a daft remark and Snape ran with it.

3. The Headcanons

Having looked at what we know and what we can extrapolate from the information we are given, everything else, then, is a head canon. We don't know when in fifth year it took place; we don't know if they were animagi yet or not (I lean towards not as it makes more sense, but there is evidence in the books that they might have been); we don't know if this was before or after Sirius ran away from home (and this opens the whole can of worms that we don't know how bad things were at home or what finally led to him making the decision to leave forever) and thus how much (if at all) trauma or guilt played a part in his revealing the secret. We don't actually know how he was feeling at all when he said it. We don't know if the group did need a bit of time to get over it, if there were angry words or even a period of estrangement before they (quickly) moved on or if they were laughing about it the next day (like they did with their other near misses).

If you want to write a marauders fanfic, or even come up with a full backstory just for your own enjoyment, then you need to scaffold "The Prank" with a fair bit of headcanon, as we only have the bare bones of it. There are lots of questions which remain unanswered and you are free to make up your own answers and weave your own narrative to suit whatever interpretation of these characters, their relationships and their motives you like.

And you can take the Snapist perspective that it was an attempted murder, and Sirius genuinely did try to kill Snape and callously used Remus as a weapon in order to do that, thus proving that he doesn't care very much about Remus at all.

But the only evidence for that headcanon is Snape's point of view, which we know is biased and faulty.

Even so, you can truly believe it.

But what you can't do is claim that this means wolfstar makes no sense. Because this is a headcanon and nothing more and you cannot tear down the validity of a ship (no matter how much you may hate it) based on your own headcanons.

You might genuinely believe that if Sirius could be so reckless as to give away Remus's secret then it is impossible he could love him, but again - that's your belief. It's not fact. In truth, people let down and betray people they love very much every day and factually Sirius revealing the secret tells us nothing about their relationship. You can interpret it how you like, but you can't claim wolfstar makes no sense because of how you have chosen to interpret it.

other interpretations are available.

It could have been a stupid, off the cuff response to Snape being snide and he gave it no more thought than that. It's still not great but it doesn't mean he didn't love Remus - whether as a friend or something more. It doesn't mean he didn't value him. It means he was a flawed teenage boy who made a mistake.

As ever, you can head canon whatever you like. But you can't change what the canon actually says and you cannot claim other headcanons don't make sense based off your own. So

4. What This Means For Wolfstar

Ultimately "The Prank" doesn't mean anything for wolfstar. It is a brief snapshot in time of a ten year friendship which we only have the barest of information about but which doesn't seem to bother either of them.

You can certainly headcanon it in a way that means wolfstar makes no sense, but that means nothing. It's not definitive. If you can't see how you can also interpret these facts so wolfstar is still possible then that's an imagination problem on your part, not a problem with wolfstar.

Meanwhile, there is still everything else that shippers see in the book which support a wolfstar intepretation. "The Prank" just becomes another example of how one of them let the other down and the other forgave them and they moved on.

Because any relationship of any length or depth is going to have moments - maybe not as dramatic as this one - but moments where one party really screws things up, hurts the other's feelings, puts themselves first and doesn't consider the other one, does something stupid without thinking about the repercussions, gets the other into trouble... Humans can be selfish and self centred, thoughtless and stupid and even down right mean. And it doesn't mean that they don't love the other person. It means they got it wrong.

What wolfstar shows us, time and again, (and "The Prank" is a prime example of this) is it doesn't matter how you screw up - screw ups are inevitable - what matters is where you go from there; how you move on; how you learn from it. And wolfstar always choose to forgive. Because their relationship (however you interpret that) is more important to them than all the betrayals in the world.

"Forgive me, Remus." "Not at all, Padfoot, old friend."

#wolfstar #sirius black #remus lupin #hp meta

Wilful Misconceptions About Wolfstar #1

"Wolfstar doesn't make sense because canonically Sirius is shown as being the least close to Remus."

Actually. No. Maybe in your headcanon, but in actual canon? No.

This belief seems to stem from the fact that Sirius chose Peter to be the Secret Keeper over Remus, and therefore he must be closer to Peter, to entrust James' life to him.

Unfortunately for the people who believe this, we have the reasoning Sirius chose Peter straight from the horse's mouth:

"Lily and James made you the Secret Keeper because I suggested it. I thought it was the perfect plan... a bluff... Voldemort would be sure to come after me, would never dream they'd use a weak, talentless thing like you. "

Sirius did not choose Peter because they were close, or because he trusted Peter above everyone else. He didn't do it as a sign of his esteem for Peter. He did it to trick Voldemort, because his opinion of Peter was so low he couldn't see past that to see what use Voldemort could see in him.

Sirius's priority here is to protect James. That is done by keeping the secret hidden. And where is the best place to hide something? Somewhere no one would ever think to look. For Sirius, this is Peter. But he is so blinded by his own low opinion of him to realise the danger.

It's interesting people use this as proof of closeness, when - if anything - digging into it proves the opposite. Voldemort is sure to come after Sirius, and we can assume this is because it is common knowledge how close Sirius and James are. Sirius is the obvious choice to be Secret Keeper. But - once Sirius is killed and the secret not revealed - if Peter was the next closest to them, would he not be the next choice? Is he not who Voldemort would go after once Sirius was dead? If Sirius thinks Voldemort can't conceive that Peter is the next most obvious option, it's because he's not. Because Peter is the tag along friend, and everyone knows it. And who entrusts their lives to the tag along friend?

"But the angst works so much better if they loved Peter and he really was a valued member of the group."

The canon is not interested in your wish to deepen the angst.

"But Sirius doesn't mean this, he's just angry after 12 years in Azkaban."

This is a perfectly fine headcanon, but that is all it is. And as such cannot be used to prove that Sirius was closer to Peter than Remus.

Unfortunately for the people who headcanon it, there is no evidence that this is true. This is all Sirius ever says on the matter. This is his final take on it.

And it's the sort of thing that can't really be half true. Either Sirius chose Peter because he thought Peter was useless and therefore it was a bluff or he didn't. Choosing him because he trusted him next after James is a totally different, non-intersecting reason to choosing him because it's a trick.

And if he chose Peter because he trusted him, then he is lying here. And my question is: why? Sure, he's angry. But if the truth is that he chose Peter because he trusted him is that not what he is angry about? Is that not what he would fling at Peter? Is that recrimination not what has been burning inside of him for 12 years? Would he not throw Peter's guilt at betraying people who genuinely loved and esteemed him in his face? Why go for the lie? The lie is going to hurt Peter's feelings far less, because he too will be able to see it for what it is. Lies - known lies- don't hurt feelings. Hard truths do.

And that's the crux of the matter here. Sirius's reason for choosing Peter - that he is useless and no one would believe he was chosen for such an important job - is a hard truth. And its probably a truth that he would never have admitted pre-betrayal, even he would not be that cruel, but 12 years in Azkaban later and he has no compunction in throwing every negative thought he ever had about Peter right in his face.

The whole purpose of this scene is uncovering long buried truths. Why would a lie - which is then never brought up again, never revealed as a lie - be lobbed in the middle of this truth telling fest and then left there without comment? How does that help the narrative? or our understanding of these characters? Or Harry's understanding? The short answer is: it doesn't. Therefore it is not supposed to be read as a lie.

Sirius is telling the truth. He did not choose Peter out of love or trust, but because he thought he was "useless" and his very patheticness made him the safest person to entrust the secret with.

But even if you are determined that Sirius is lying here, the fact is, not only does canon not support this belief at any later date, but Sirius's antipathy and scorn of Peter is shown years before the betrayal takes place:

"Put that away will you... Before Wormtail wets himself with excitement"

"But that's just friendly banter"

No. It isn't. Now is not the time to get into just how much bullying and harassment is excused away under the mantle of "banter", but the simple litmus test of if something is "friendly banter" is if both parties are laughing.

Not only is Sirius not laughing and joking (he is bored and irritated in this scene) but Peter does not laugh along either:

"Wormtail turned slightly pink, but James grinned"

He doesn't laugh. He doesn't shoot back a witty retort. He blushes. He is embarrassed by Sirius's words. Meanwhile, James grins. Sirius is not joking, he is not in a lighthearted jokey mood, he makes a cruel jab at Peter and invites James to join in with the mockery, which James does by laughing along.

This is the only pre-betrayal scene we see with Sirius and Peter in it but at no point does Sirius speak directly to Peter, and the only time he acknowledges his existence is to make fun of him.

"But Madam Rosmerta remembers that Peter was friends with James and Sirius, she never mentions Remus."

That's true, but only because she is directly reminded of his existence by the teachers. When talking about Sirius's friends she is prompted both times:

"You say you remember him at Hogwarts, Rosmerta... Do you remember who his best friend was?" "Naturally... Never saw one without the other, did you? The number of times I had them in here - ooh they used to make me laugh. Quite the double act, Sirius Black and James Potter!"

The friendship between Sirius and James is not remarked upon spontaneously, but because Fudge has said that Rosmerta does not know the half of Sirius's crimes, most people don't know the worst of it, and now they are filling her in. The worst thing Sirius Black did was betray his best friend to his death, so his best friend is brought into the conversation.

And onto Peter:

"But he didn't manage to disappear did he? The Ministry caught up with him the next day!" "Alas, If only we had... It was not we who found him. It was little Peter Pettigrew - another of the Potter's friends..." "Pettigrew... that fat little boy who was always tagging around after them at Hogwarts?"

This is a conversation about Sirius's crimes and what happened back in 1981. Peter is brought into it because of the role he plays in that story. This is not a conversation where they are reminiscing about the marauders era or Sirius's friendships (though from Rosmerta's description, Peter does not appear especially "close" or valued) it is a conversation about notorious mass murderer Sirius Black and his victims.

James and Peter are Sirius's victims. They get brought into the conversation. Remus is not one of Sirius's victims, so he does not get brought up. He doesn't have a place in the conversation because the focus of the conversation is the people Sirius killed, not who Sirius's friends were.

Yes, they believe Sirius killed his friends so there is overlap but it is a list of his victims not a comprehensive list of his friends.

So there is no need for a Doylist explanation that JKR doesn't want to reveal that Remus is friends with Sirius yet, which comes with the counter claim that Rosmerta "doesnt remember him" as she doesn't mention him, so therefore he wasn't as close as the other marauders.

This is a conversation about the people Sirius killed. That does not include Remus. Therefore Remus is not included in the story. There is no need for McGonagall to prompt Rosmerta into remembering him. But there is no evidence that, just as she remembers James and Peter with a bit of prompting, she couldn't have also remembered Remus if there had been a reason to bring him up.

So the claim that Sirius is close to Peter seems primarily to come from the headcanon that Sirius is lying about his reasons to choose him as a secret keeper and misunderstanding the focus of the conversation between Rosmerta, Fudge and the teachers.

There is no other supporting evidence.

Meanwhile, the evidence that supports Remus and Sirius being close (and Remus very much being included in the marauders)

Remus states that he had three great friends at Hogwarts, and of these he names Sirius first.

These three great friends don't abandon him when they find out he is a werewolf. Given werewolves' standing in the wizarding community, this is no small thing.

These three great friends become illegal animagi in order to help him out - and their adventures at the full moon become the best times of Remus's life.

Sirius does speak to Remus directly during Snape's Worst Memory, in fact it is Remus he speaks to first.

Remus is able to joke about being a werewolf with Sirius, following the DADA OWL. This is seen again in the canon timeline - so continues into adulthood.

Remus doesn't tell Sirius off for attacking Snape during SWM but Sirius later says that Remus made them feel ashamed of themselves afterwards. This means:

Remus feels he is close enough to Sirius to tell him off without fear of Sirius abandoning him, even though being unable to stand up to his friends is one of his major canon flaws.

Sirius respects Remus and his opinion enough to listen to him and reflect on his own actions - even as a teenager.

After almost 13 years apart, Remus seems to read Sirius's mind and immediately believes him.

He speaks to Sirius with a voice trembling with "some suppressed emotion" but speaks "pleasantly, as if rats erupted into school friends all the time" when he speaks to Peter.

When Sirius is ready to kill Peter, quite understandably wanting his vengeance, it is Remus who is able to calm him down and delay him from killing Peter until Harry understands.

Remus pays no attention to Snape's threats and insults against him but argues when Snape wants to return Sirius to the dementors, meanwhile Sirius roars with rage when Snape ties Remus up.

Instant forgiveness for each believing the other was the spy.

They look to each other for encouragement and agreement, with deciding to kill Peter and then agreeing not to on Harry's say so

Remus is happy to kill Peter and is even cold about it ("you should have realised, Peter, that if Voldemort didn't kill you, we would. Good bye") but was Mr. Moral High Ground when Sirius was facing the dementors' kiss.

Everything we see of their friendship in the shack stems from the closeness they shared before the betrayal - because they have not seen each other since. These are two men who can read each others minds, work as a seamless unit, help the other out when one is lost for words (Remus stepping up because Sirius is too overcome with emotion), who believe and forgive each other instantly and who look to each other for guidance on what to do. And they have picked this up after almost 13 years apart. That's an insane level of connectivity and synchronicity.

It's just poor reading comprehension to say they were not close.

It's true that we are never told they are close (beyond Remus talking about his great friends) but we are shown it over and over and over again. And only someone wilfully refusing to understand what men who can read each other;s minds and finish each other's sentences after 13 years apart means could try and argue they had not had a close and loving relationship when they were young.

You don't even have to believe in wolfstar. I don't believe they were ever a couple. But you cannot plausibly deny the evidence of the intensity of their friendship.

Meanwhile, the only thing supporting Sirius being closer to Peter is headcanons that fly in the face of what canon explicitly tells us.

There is no comparison. Remus and Sirius were closer than Sirius and Peter when they were younger, and the books show us that in a hundred different ways.

#wolfstar #sirius black #remus lupin #hp meta

Wilful Misconceptions About Wolfstar #3

"Wolfstar doesn't make any sense because Sirius thought Remus was the spy"

It's true enough that, for those with only a limited imagination and little understanding of the nuance and complexity that makes up both human emotions and relationships, this could be an absolute zinger of an argument.

But wolfstar exists in the subtext and is shipped by those who pick up on little things like nuance and complexity (and forty line stares) and so, to them, this argument falls flat and just makes it look as if those putting it forward are arguing in bad faith.

You don't have to like wolfstar, you don't have to ship it, you don't have to interpret the text in a romantic way - but you can't seriously claim that Sirius thinking Remus was the spy actually somehow makes any prior romance (or romantic feeling) impossible.

The fact is we know Sirius loves Remus - even if you only interpret that as platonic love - we know that to be true. Remus describes Sirius as his "great friend" , Sirius becomes an illegal animagus just to help Remus out and spend more time with him. Yes, the same is true of both James and Peter, but the point is Remus is a loved and valued member of the group. That is beyond dispute. And yet Sirius still suspected him of being the spy.

Ergo loving Remus and thinking he would betray them are canonically not mutually exclusive feelings for one person to hold. All that is left, then, is how we choose to interpret the nature of that love.

Naturally you can choose to reject a romantic interpretation, that is your prerogative, but you cannot categorically state that a romantic interpretation makes no sense.

Because the truth is we know very little about the first wizarding war, and the only thing we know about Sirius suspecting Remus is the bare fact that he did. There remain many things about this period of time that we do not know and for which we are given no indication of in canon.

Canon leaves us with the following gaps in our knowledge:

Why Sirius thought Remus was the spy

How he came to this conclusion and if he had any evidence to back it up.

How long he believed Remus was the spy before James died.

How he felt about it and

What (if anything) he intended to do about it and who (if anybody) he intended to tell.

That's a lot of known unknowns, and if you cannot conceive of a way these questions can be answered so that wolfstar is still viable then that is - genuinely - a problem with your imagination and not a problem with the ship. You don't have to like these answers, you can reject them out of hand and choose your own preferred answers - that is fine - but to say such answers are not possible is patently false.

And, while we don't have a definitive answer to these questions one way or the other, we do have something of Sirius's view of the war through his own words and, through his own words, he makes the complexity of relationships (of any type) during a war clear.

"Imagine that Voldemort is powerful now. You don't know who his supporters are, you don't know who's working for him and who isn't; you know he can control people so that they can do terrible things without being able to stop themselves. You're scared for yourself, and your family and your friends."

Mistrust and fear are the driving factors of the war (they are weapons that Voldemort wields on purpose). The Wizarding World is existing under terrible pressure and people and relationships are fracturing beneath it. Living life always looking over your shoulder, never feeling safe - even in your own home, being afraid to return home in case you find the Dark Mark waiting for you, hearing news every week of more death and disappearance and torture and never knowing if that wizard you were just talking to, who seemed so nice, was involved ... It would be enough to break anyone.

Remus himself later states that James

"would have regarded it as the height of dishonour to mistrust his friends"

And he is not saying that to extol James' virtues; he is calling James a trusting fool.

It was normal to regard everyone - even people you loved - with suspicion. It was sensible to do so. Suspicion was what would keep you alive, keep you safe.

And Sirius, who is bold and brave and loyal to a fault but who has a dark side to him, is not James - and is capable of the "dishonour" of suspecting friends. If he wants to keep himself and the Potters safe he has to do it.

Blind trust - in anyone - is a luxury none can afford, as James finds out to his cost.

For Sirius to be suspicious of Remus is natural and normal and sensible in the situation they are in.

Though, if any wolfstar shipper was so inclined, I believe they could make rather a lot of this line:

"you know he can control people so that they can do terrible things without being able to stop themselves"

when it comes to creating headcanons for how Sirius could bring himself to suspect Remus.

But enough of potential headcanon and back to actual canon. Because while it was natural, under the circumstances, for Sirius to be wary of any of his friends, the fact is he chose to believe it was Remus who was the spy and that needs addressing.

"He was sure that somebody close to the Potters had been keeping You Know Who informed of their movements... Indeed, he had suspected for some time that someone on our side had turned traitor and was passing a lot of information to You Know Who."

Sirius doesn't just wake up one day and start distrusting Remus for the heck of it. They are informed there is a spy in their midst, keeping track of the Potters and informing Voldemort of their movements. And - as Dumbledore thinks the spy is someone close to the Potters - reasonably (especially in a time of civil war where everyone is wary and given Sirius's words in GOF) this narrows down the list of suspects to their core group.

So Sirius's list of suspects are:

himself,

James and Lily,

Peter,

And Remus,

Now, he knows it is not himself. Of everyone on the list he is the one person he can actually, genuinely be 100% certain is not the spy.

James and/or Lily are the ones in danger, along with Harry. If one or both of them is the spy there's not much Sirius can do to protect them from themselves and - while it's reasonable to consider if a friend would endanger and betray you - James and Lily would be endangering and betraying their own helpless child, and that's a very different proposition. I think it was fair that Sirius discounted the Potters as suspects with little to no consideration of the matter.

So - why not suspect Peter? Again, we have his view on this in his own words:

"I thought it was the perfect plan... a bluff... Voldemort would be sure to come after me, would never dream they'd use a weak, talentless thing like you."

I know there are people who like to pretend that Sirius chose Peter to be the secret keeper because he was so close to him, trusted him second after James etc etc but that is simply not true according to the book. And the books never go back and address this again, no more information on this is ever given. This is the only canonical explanation we ever receive and therefore it is the truth; canon whether you like it or not.

Sirius thinks Peter is weak and talentless, he thinks he is the last person Voldemort would suspect of being made secret keeper. He chooses Peter for his negative attributes, not his positive ones, and it is those very negative attributes that cause him to think Peter cannot be the spy. How could anyone so weak and cowardly double cross his friends and lie to them, or stand in front of Lord Voldemort? What use could Lord Voldemort have for a servant so talentless?

Later Sirius wonders:

"I'll never understand why I didn't see you were the spy from the start"

But the truth is, Sirius doesn't see Peter full stop. He constantly and consistently underestimates him, is bested by him again and again, and yet still only sees the "weak, talentless thing" he has decided Peter is.

Peter's always being overlooked, ignored and underestimated is both the source of all his grievances and the reason for all his successes. It is his superpower. And, no matter how many times he falls foul of it, Sirius does not learn.

He has a low opinion of Peter. Peter is useless. Peter is a coward. Therefore Peter cannot be the spy.

And that leaves only Remus left on his list. And he is not able to discount Remus out of hand because 1) unlike with himself, he is not inside Remus's head so cannot know for certain he is not the spy 2) Remus is not Harry's parent and he is not the one in danger or being spied upon, so he doesn't have the cast iron alibi James and Lily enjoy but it is 3) the ways he is unlike Peter that are the most interesting for what it tells us about how Sirius views Remus.

Remember, Peter is chosen and trusted for his negative traits. It is his very uselessness that allows Sirius to disregard him as a suspect and therefore we can extrapolate that Sirius does not view Remus as having these same negative traits if he is not willing to trust him in the same way. For everything Peter cannot do, which makes him safe, Remus can do and that makes him dangerous. If Peter is too weak and talentless to be of use to Voldemort, then Remus is strong and talented. Peter is useless, Remus is useful. If Peter is a coward, then Remus is brave.

Sirius can see the power and talent that Remus has, he can believe he would be brave enough to go to Voldemort, clever enough to lie to his friends and useful enough that Voldemort will accept him in his ranks.

If Sirius rejects the idea of Peter being the spy because he believes he is too worthless to be one, then he accepts the idea of Remus being the spy because he respects Remus's abilities. This is a mistake which costs James and Lily their lives but it is a mistake rooted in disdain for Peter and recognition of Remus and what he is worth to the war effort.

Sirius shows his respect for Remus, his thoughts and his abilities many times throughout the books, but it is easily overlooked that his distrust in Remus is also rooted in his respect for him. It might be twisted and complex, but that is the nature of the war and the effect it is having on their friendship and their thinking.

If Sirius is insulting Peter by thinking he is incapable of being the spy then he is complimenting Remus with his very distrust.

Weird but true. They were crazy times.

So that's what we know from the canon, and there is nothing there that has to be detrimental to a wolfstar interpretation of their relationship and plenty of ways to use the canon to explain how wolfstar is still possible among the mistrust and betrayals, but I want to finish off by circling back to my list of known unknowns. Specifically number 5) We don't know what he intended to do about Remus being the spy or who he intended to tell.

Now, obviously, the point of that list is there are no definitive answers but as far as we can tell from the information we are given in the books, Sirius doesn't seem to tell anyone that he suspects Remus is the spy.

In the Shrieking Shack Peter asks Remus

"Wouldn't Sirius have told you they'd changed the plan?"

It's Remus who comes up with the answer as to why he wouldn't have done that, Peter doesn't seem to think of it. If Peter knew Sirius suspected Remus then he's playing with fire bringing up that line of reasoning, because Sirius suspecting someone else is further proof he is innocent, not that he is guilty.

A far safer way to frame Sirius's guilt would be to say "He's now telling you it was me, but back then he was telling me it was you, he's blamed us both for his crimes" thus making it seem not that Sirius is lying now but that he has been lying all along and will happily change his story to cover his tracks. If Peter is trying to drive a wedge between Sirius and Remus, telling Remus that Sirius once tried to frame him as the spy, like he is now framing Peter, would be just as effective (if not more so) than asking why Remus was not privy to the change of plan.

Peter doesn't do this, he tunnels straight into Remus being able to clarify Sirius's innocence for himself by understanding that Sirius once thought him guilty. And Peter is cunning; he wouldn't make a blunder like that.

It seems likely that Sirius never told Peter he suspected Remus.

Did he tell James? We don't know, though it seems unlikely James would have been willing to consider it even if he had (it would have been "the height of dishonour"). Maybe Sirius told James, but got nowhere with it. Maybe he didn't bother because he knew it would lead to an argument.

Certainly he doesn't seem to have told Dumbledore. After all, not only does Dumbledore accept that Sirius was the spy without a qualm (when he might have at least been troubled if Sirius had come to him with one name only to turn out to be the spy himself) but Sirius doesn't consider going to Dumbledore after James has died. If he was in the habit of speaking to him about who the spy was, if he had already done it, it would have been a simple matter to go to Dumbledore and explain he had trusted the wrong friend. His resignation that everyone will "know" he was guilty probably stems from the fact that he never told anyone he suspected someone else.

And why is it important if he never told anyone he thought Remus was the spy?

Because James' life was in danger.

The spy is endangering James' safety and, as every James stan will tell you, Sirius's priority is James - keeping him safe, protecting him. Nothing matters more to him...

So why did Sirius not protect him by speaking to Dumbledore about his concerns about Remus?

In not telling anyone who the spy is, he becomes complicit in their crimes. Why, when James' life is on the line, would Sirius not speak out? Why would he cover for Remus like that?

(This behaviour is then mirrored by Remus himself in canon, I will look that at when I write the accompanying "wolfstar makes no sense because Remus believed Sirius was the spy" piece).

Sirius not telling anyone, and his reasons for doing that are conjecture, not canon, but they are conjectures based on the wide open spaces that canon leaves us with - the unasked and unanswered questions. It is conjecture to say the reason that Sirius does not report Remus is love, but it is reasonable conjecture based on what we know.

I'm not pointing this out as canon based evidence for wolfstar - because it is not, I'm pointing it out because what canon does is leave massive gaps which we need to fill for ourselves with our own headcanons and which can easily be filled with headcanons wherein wolfstar still makes perfect sense.

My argument here is not that wolfstar is canon because Sirius never told anyone Remus was the spy, or because he trusted Peter because he was weak, or because the war was so complicated mistrust was inevitable. My argument is not (and never is) that wolfstar is literally canon. My argument is against the claim that the ship makes "no sense", in this case because Sirius thought Remus was the spy.

It is up to every individual reader to answer all the questions canon raises however they choose, and you can hate wolfstar as much as you like, but it is a nonsense to say that - with the canon knowledge we have along with the gaps in knowledge that we have - wolfstar cannot coexist with Sirius believing Remus was the spy.

Of course it can, you only have to interpret the facts and the gaps that way.

#sirius black #remus lupin #hp meta #wolfstar #sirius/remus

The thing that annoys me most about wolfstar haters is their determination that it is a relatively new ship.

I read POA in 1999. I was talking about wolfstar (though I didn't call it that) in 1999. And I was far from the only one.

the movie didn't come out until 2004. I had been talking about wolfstar for five years at this point. And I didn't like the movies when they were coming out. I didn't watch POA until years after it had been released.

No, "wolfstar truthers" did not spring into existence with the line "look at you quarrelling like an old married couple"

The three year summer (2000-2003) was a massive time for wolfstar shippers because the end of GOF gave us a whole new genre to play with: "Lie Low at Lupin's". Three years worth of headcanon, fan art and fics all before the movie hit theatres. And that was on top of the intense scenes (and best chapters in all of HP) in the shrieking shack.

The Case For R/S by elwing_alcyone was written in 2003 following the publication of OOTP. It was first written before the POA movie came out and it goes through - in painstaking detail - all the parts of the books which support wolfstar.

Now, you don't have to agree with the interpretation, but you have to accept and respect the fact that back when the books were coming out there were people who did ship it and did so based on canon information. It is a ship based in canon even if it is not canon. And it stems from a time before we knew what would happen next and had to wait years for the next instalment.

Just because some wolfstar fics might now twist the characters beyond all recognition does not mean that Remus and Sirius have to be OOC for the ship to work.

I am only interested in canonically accurate versions of these characters. But I do ship them together, and have done for the past 26 years. Because of what I can see in the text.

Wolfstar shippers are as old as Remus and Sirius themselves (that is to say, they all date from 1999). You might not be able to find masses of early 2000s wolfstar fics on FFN, but that's because they were on live journal and private websites and sites dedicated to "puppy love"/ "the one true way". They were on sites that no longer exist and you have to commit to trawling the wayback machine in a fandom archaelogial dig just to find snippets. But they did exist - in great numbers. I remember them. I saw them. They were my first introduction to fanfic, and there was no shortage to choose from. And the ship was being spoken about IRL, and no there is no internet history for that but it doesn't stop it being real.

You may not have been in these spaces, but that doesn't mean that these spaces were not there. You might not have been a wolfstar shipper (a "puppy love/ one true way shipper") but that doesn't mean other people were not, and that they were relatively large in number - especially for a slash ship at that time.

Wolfstar does not come from the movie. And it certainly doesn't come from All The Young Dudes. And I don't care how much you hate the ship, how much you love Prongsfoot or Remadora (if that's your reason for hating), you have to accept that the wolfstar ship started sailing in 1999 with the publication of Prisoner of Azkaban.

Yes it has grown in popularity over the years and taken some wild turns, but it started with the introduction of the characters and it started in canon.

I get that people like to hate on what is popular, and wolfstar is super popular now and the popular fics bear little resemblance to the books, but hating on something doesn't have to include rewriting the facts - whether that is done in ignorance or maliciously.

Yeah, you have to be in your late 30s or early 40s (at least) to be an OG wolfstar shipper, because any younger than that and you wouldn't see it in the text when it first came out, but please stop writing these older fans out of history.

Especially if you're not old enough to remember or weren't in the fandom back when all this happened.

Wolfstar has been around since Remus and Sirius were introduced. in 1999. I have been shipping them since 1999. And I wasn't alone.

Deal with it.

#wolfstar #sirius black #remus lupin #hp meta

owwllly

gojo and his miiuse

#stsg #goge #jjk

zxxalta

"Sasuke and Kushina are not the same and they have no parallels Naruto is the only one similar to her." oh my fucking god READ no one's saying Sasuke and Kushina are alike in personality bc ofc they're not.

The two fill similar roles in the story when it comes to Naruto and Minato respectively

It's funny because Kishimoto addresses this in 694. Naruto thinks about Itachi's words regarding how Minato was able to be a Hokage thanks to Kushina (who's specifically singled out) and them others around him, then brings up the fact that there are things people can't do alone. Then Sasuke hears Naruto's statement and internally acknowledges the fact that he and Naruto are two sides of the same coin that can only succeed when working together.

It's foreshadowing for Sasuke's shadow hokage role and him fulfilling the same narrative position that Kushina did with respect to Minato, as you said.

And there's the obvious Minakushi/Narusasu parallel in terms of their parenting relationship with Naruto and Boruto respectively. There's a reason why SP gave this scene to Naruhina.

But if that's not clear enough. Do these people think that the Naruto Ninja Storm Game team had a secret Narusasu shipping agenda to shove Sasuke into Kushina's narrative role? These are the same games that are full of hetslop fanservice. Do they think that they'd be inclined to highlight the narrative similarities between Minakushi and Narusasu unless it was just... and part of the plot?

And Naruto and Sasuke's respective positions as Hokage and right-hand man were literally used to build the romantic arc between Boruto and Sarada in the Boruto movie that Kishimoto wrote. These comparisons are more direct than the Minakushi ones (although Minato is still referenced in this scene, which further proves the point).

httydstan

Are you trying to say sasuke and naruto being two sides of the same coin and working together is comparable to kushina's support for minato? Or that it "foreshadows" sasuke filling the same role as kushina? you don't have enough information on minakushi to draw that conclusion. Sasuke is never credited or singled out for being the reason naruto is hokage so what's the similar narrative position there? Let the sasuke kushina parallels rest, the movie scenes are one thing but everything else is pushing it

Characters don't have to be incredibly fleshed out in order to be foils/parallels. For example, we know nothing significant about Nawaki except the aspects that were meant to make him a narrative parallel (desire to be Hokage, refusal to run in the face of danger, etc.) to Naruto, thus enhancing Naruto and Tsunade's arc.

We have enough information on Minakushi to know that she fulfilled a supportive role with regard to Minato and that she was singled out by Itachi, despite the fact that nothing significant would be lost if it was not mentioned. We have enough to know that in a story where Kishimoto plays with narrative progression to provide hints at what's to come, like in the example below.

We have enough to know that even if the Minato and Kushina comparison could be removed without anything significant changing, it was particularly included because it was narratively relevant to Naruto and his arc. Kishimoto made Itachi bring that up because, like Minato, Naruto was also someone who wanted to be Hokage, and Naruto needed to realize that he couldn't do it all on his own and he needed support from the people around him. Further, nothing significant would have changed if the Minato panel looked like the one below. Minato next to indistinguishable characters would have also supported the point that Minato needed the support of the people around him in order to do what he did.

But again, Kishimoto himself made Itachi himself single out Kushina as someone who made Minato a great Hokage. And you think that Kishimoto's hand slipped and that it's a coincidence that directly after this conversation, Itachi himself went to defeat Kabuto and told Sasuke about TWO people who could only succeed when working together. That it's a coincidence that Itachi, who at that moment was being framed as someone who was wise and learned from his mistakes, ominously told Sasuke to find in himself what Itachi was unable to find. That both Naruto and Sasuke received the "learn to cooperate" conversation from Itachi himself that included significant stories about pairs that uniquely cooperated together successfully (Minato/Kushina and Izanagi/Izanami).

A coincidence that both conversations were referenced sequentially and that their story culminated in Naruto specifically telling Sasuke that he wanted to collaborate with him? LMAO. But sure. It's not like this fact isn't acknowledged when Boruto and Sarada's romantic arc in the movie is built off the premise of Boruto being in a unique shadow Hokage role LIKE SASUKE to help Sarada who dreams of being Hokage LIKE NARUTO and Minato (who was brought up as well when Boruto's point would have sufficed by just bringing up Naruto).

And "How can I be Hokage if I can't save a single friend?" Who was the friend that this statement was repeatedly made in reference to? Naruto becoming Hokage was contingent specifically contingent on Sasuke. But that said, that's beyond the scope of my argument. What I meant to say in my 1st post was that Kushina was singled out as the one who helped Minato be a "great Hokage" (this conveys a different nuance) and it is this specific dimension that is paralelled; Kushina and Sasuke were singled out for uniquely supporting Minato and Naruto and helping them be great Hokage. And if Sasuke wasn't singled out in that respect, then the ending of the Boruto movie with the right hand man conversation wouldn't exist.

And to circle back to your point about specifics, the support being instantiated in different ways wouldn't change the general concept being paralleled. Naruto and Sasuke, and Gaara all experienced the general concept of loneliness. Their loneliness is paralleled. Yet, their loneliness manifested in different ways, and because of this, antis try to undermine what Naruto went through and deny the similarities, no? But their personal qualms don't change what was presented in the text.

Finally, why would we let the parallels rest if they were acknowledged by another Naruto medium that has no particular incentive to make Naruto and Sasuke look more romantic. The movie parallels that you acknowledged don't exist in a vacuum. They are both connected to the fact that Naruto and Sasuke are supportive partners, whether that be in the work sphere or the more "domestic" sphere. They literally start a "competition" about whether or not Boruto is like them (with regards to whether or not the soul of a shinobi remains the same) after discussing their work, and it's a theme explored throughout the rest of the arc.

httydstan

You're still grasping at straws, the fact is kushina was neither hokage nor minato's shadow hokage and nothing is said about them having to learn to work together. The nawaki parallels on the other hand were very direct. I don't think it's a coincidence I just think it's not saying what you want it to. They got the same conversation because like you said, two sides of the same coin, a core part of their dynamic, can't say the same for minakushi.

All we know is that kushina supported minato we know nothing of what that support looked like and I don't think that alone is enough for such a comparison. And obviously she'd be singled out she's his wife, you could even argue that, based on the minato manga, the reason she's singled out is also because of all the sealing jutsu she taught him which later became minato's specialty, no similarity to sasuke and naruto there. Boruto and sarada's romantic relationship being built on the hokage/shadow hokage dynamic is more of a sasuke/naruto parallel but doesn't mean anything for minato and kushina's dynamic despite boruto mentioning minato. Like I said, you don't know enough and I sincerely doubt kishimoto was implying kushina was a shadow hokage.

You should let the sasuke/kushina parallels rest because they're getting dumber by the day. Suportive partners sure but Naruto and sasuke arguing over boruto has nothing to do with minakushi (since they both think naruto was just like kushina) so yea those parallels exist in a vacuum to me and certainly don't speak for the rest of the sns dynamic like the fandom would have you believe. Not sure if you think I'm arguing sns being romantic overall or not but I'm only talking about the minakushi parallels the fandom keeps inventing.

Grasping at straws is not looking at pattern reperition or narrative progression to come to conclusions only to see those parallels even further confirmed in other mediums and for Kishimoto again to bring up Naruto AND Minato in the same context when he has Boruto talk about the importance of being a means of support for the Hokage.

Your other points are this.

Lack of directness

Yes, not every comparison needs to be spoonfed immediately. Boruro being the sun to Mitsuki's moon is a reference to Narusasu, but they didn't come out in this moment and scream it. The Minakushi/Narusasu parallels were still referenced in another medium, as I said. They didn't come out of thin air.

Lack of detail

And again, not every single aspect of something needs to be fleshed out in order to be suitable for a general comparison. You're taking different aspects of what I'm arguing about and mashing them all together to come up with different points, so let me say it again. The point of me bringing up Nawaki was not to argue about whether it functioned as a valid comparison because of directness. The point is exactly as I said. Characters do not need to be fleshed out in order to function as narrative tools to enhance another character's arc. We didn't need to know the details because the basics facts of Nawaki wanting to be Hokage and refusing to run away in battle were sufficient enough for the parallel to Naruto.

You keep bringing up the fact that we don't know every single thing about Minato and Kushina's relationship. Again, comparisons are 1. Inherently partial. Not every single aspect of Dynamic A needs to be the same as every single aspect of Dynamic B in order to be compared. Parallels specifically compare (highlight) certain dimensions while hiding other dimensions that would make the comparison unsuitable.

And 2. General concepts can be compared while being instantiated in different ways. Loneliness. Big concept. Manifested differently in the manga characters we did get information on, like Naruto and Sasuke. Naruto's loneliness came from the complete absence of bonds. Sasuke's loneliness came from the loss of his bonds. Yet, it didn't stop Kishimoto from directly comparing their experiences.

That also addresses the "I doubt Kishimoto was trying to call Kushina shadow Hokage" point. Boruto's singled out support role will uniquely manifest in him being a shadow Hokage, but the larger point is that Minato was referenced in a context where Boruto was detailing how he wanted to support Sarada.

"Of course she'd be brought up she's his wife"

Is not some automatic rule that Kishimoto adheres to when it's not relevant to the larger point that he's trying to make.

Naruto thinking about Hinata in this moment would have been made sense to highlight the "a boxed lunch isn't just about the food..." theme. After all, Boruto himself thought about his own mother. Kishimoto could have chosen to make Naruto think about Hinata in addition to thinking about Team 7, BUT he chose to solely emphasize the Team 7 connection to focus on Sarada's similarities with her parent's, something that segued smoothly into the next scene when Naruto started to compare Sarada with Sasuke and Sakura. The things you think are obvious and intuitive have intent behind them. And even if Kishimoto just put Kushina there for funsies, it doesn't take away from the fact that the sequence is Naruto (Thinking about Itachi giving him advice about how he needs to rely on other people and telling him a specific example of how Minato, his father who became Hokage, had help from Kushina) ———> Sasuke (Thinking about Itachi giving him advice about how two people can only succeed by working together as a pair). So why have Sasuke start thinking about successful pairs immediately afterwards then.

And I didn't say that the act of Naruto and Sasuke arguing made them similar to Minakishi. Read what I wrote. You yourself stated that you'd accept the movie comparisons about Naruto and Sasuke's role in helping Boruto being similar to Minakushi with Naruto but not the other comparisons about Sasuke helping Naruto being similar to Minakushi. Hence, me saying that Kishimoto mingled both the work sphere and the "domestic" sphere. They are not distinct facets that Kishimoto handled separately. They are shown as supportive partners when working together and supportive partners when helping Boruto. That's all. The competition example was highlighted to emphasize how Sasuke aided in Boruto's personal growth.

And Naruto is compared to both Kushina and Minato. So what. I don't think you're arguing about sns being romantic either. I'm emphasizing the aspect because the pattern of romantic trope Kishimoto uses.

And people said the movie parallels were only a shipper reach until the Storm Games came out, so I'm good. I'll keep comparing the red string of fate dynamics. Sasuke supports Naruto in both the work and domestic arena, and both aspects are meant to be similar to Minakushi. That was my point, and I stand by it.

httydstan

They don't need to come out in the moment and scream it but there should at least be enough to recognize which I don't find in the panels you claimed to be foreshadowing sasuke in kushina's role. I brought up the directness of the nawaki parallel because though he wasn't fleshed out the few things that we did know, matched naruto almost exactly. Which I why I kept saying we dont know enough about minakushi and kushina's role in minato being hokage, and what we do know about it doesnt match sns. Boruto and sarada have clear outlined goals of being hokage and shadow hokage. "Singled out support roles" as your basis for comparison just isn't enough to me here. I don't think he put kushina there for funsies but I see it more as an extension of minato thanking kushina for making him hokage among other things, naruto's conversation was largely in general and I think sasuke's conversation was about guiding him to naruto specifically seeing as itachi appointed him as his saviour 🤷🏾‍♀️

I read what you wrote and you sounded like you're trying to convince me that sns are romantic rather than my actual point of how far these sasuke kushina parallels have gone. Stand by your point but all I'm saying is I think when kishimoto makes parallels he makes them pretty clear such as the movie scenes, everything else not so much. The basis of "sasuke supports naruto therefore he's his kushina" is just too vague

I was trying to engage with you in good faith, but I've seen your tags (which I'll address later) and your page, and now I see it's about pushing an agenda.

LOL. Minato and Hinata have never been directly compared within the actual narrative, and yet.... but let's move on

You're bringing up extra propositions to argue points that I'm not specifically making when I'm clear about what I'm saying.

The point of me bringing up Nawaki was that there is precedent for general concepts being compared even with a lack of details. Nothing more and nothing less. So, lack of details isn't a general issue, and this is something you've tacitly agreed to. I'm not arguing about whether you feel that it's a more sufficient comparison than the Narusasu/Minakushi comparisons because that's irrelevant to the particular point that I was making in bringing it up.

So, that's settled. We both agree that general concepts can be compared. Now we're moving on to the matter of sufficiency. Again, general concepts can manifest in different ways, so even if Kushina helped in a different way, it wouldn't change the concept being paralleled to begin with. This is addressed with Naruto and Sasuke, with the concept of loneliness, for example. Our real argument is about whether you feel the little that stated about Kushina with regards to Minato can be compared to Sasuke, and the answer is unquestionably yes.

First, let's take a step back and look at the original context in which Itachi made his statement. Naruto was "arrogant" and felt it his duty to handle the war all by himself. Itachi called him out on this and told Naruto that even though he became stronger and more powerful, he should never forget the people who helped make him powerful: his nakama.

This is the most generic shonen concept ever, and it is on this basis that Itachi references Kushina and Minato. Minato was a great Hokage because he had Kushina and the others around him to support him and didn't try to take everything on by himself. That's it. You don't need details for this. This is one of the most basic themes in the manga. Even without getting into Sasuke, Kishimoto is directly spoonfeeding the comparison between Minato being a great Hokage because of Kushina and the others supporting him, and Naruto's success as a Hokage hinging on the support of his nakama. If you couldn't compare the two situations then Minato and Kushina being brought up in this scene would be meaningless, because the example is meant to guide Naruto and help him learn to rely on his nakama the way Minato did Kushina. It's meant to teach Naruto to share his burdens, and Itachi used an example of someone who shared the same goals as him (Minato) to make it relevant to Naruto and move him. You don't need any special details for this comparison. You don't need to know if Kushina's specific help was helping Minato file papers on Friday's or teaching Minato Uzumaki clan secrets to understand the generic and basic principle of Minato only succeeding because he relied on Kushina's help and others. If you disagree with this aspect, we are simply fundamentally at odds regarding what the manga is indicating.

Now, within this context, Itachi references the villagers, which prompts Naruto to think about them here. But of course, when Naruto later mentions that he knows who his nakama are during his conversation with the Sage, Sasuke is shown front and center. And even during Naruto's meeting with Itachi, Itachi thinks that Sasuke is lucky to have Naruto as a friend, so Sasuke was in his mind with his advice to Naruto as well.

This basic "nakama help make you strong/great/powerful" motif (that was meant to specifically aid Naruto in his journey to becoming Hokage and textually also applied to Minato who received help through Kushina) was repeatedly empahsized throughout the war arc.

This motif is repeated after Sasuke joins the battlefield, and Naruto and Sasuke's unique teamwork is specifically highlighted, while the Konaha 12 visually frame them.

And this is something that mamea sense. Sasuke was deeply entrenched in Naruto's heart, and more than anyone was uniquely singled out for driving Naruto and helping him become stronger.

That's the basic outline before we get to 694. Though, to address some of your points before I continue, the 694 scene wasn't an extension of Minato thanking Kushina because this is specifically Itachi's perspective. If that's what Kishimoto wanted to convey, then Naruto could have just thought of Minato conveying gratefulness and gratitude for Kushina directly. The Itachi scene also specifically emphasizes the power of working together with a pair, and it's supposed to nudge Sasuke towards finding that other person he can collaborate with, Naruto. This is in line with Kishimoto's interview about Naruto fighting so that Sasuke can see him as his closest ally.

So with that said, it's not just about Sasuke uniquely helping Naruto. It's about that specific motif being referenced with Sasuke and Naruto standing side by side while their other comrades surround them. It's about the fact that a crucial basis in making pragmatic inferences is noting the gap between what might have been shown and what was actually shown. It's about the fact that Kishimoto specifically skipped multiple panels in Naruto's recollection of his conversation with Itachi to include moments that were relevant to his conversation and dynamic with Sasuke.

And it's about the setup of the narrative progression, which has been a crucial component in Naruto and Sasuke's bond since Part 1. It's something that has been used to add tension and/or foreshadow elements in SNS bond, but people called us delusional for pointing out.

And your tags are very unserious.

There's not a single scene that Boruto has with Sasuke in the Boruto movie that is not connected to Naruto and Sasuke's bond. Sasuke and Naruto have a philosophical competition about whether or not the soul of a shinobi is still the same. When Boruto asks Sasuke to train him, Sasuke says that if Boruto can't make a rasengan, he won't take him on. He looks at Boruto and states that he understands what Naruto was saying about all of Boruto's clothes being new. Then, he internally acknowledges that he's motivated by his earlier contest with Naruto. He accepts Boruto as a student because he gets the basics of the rasengan correct. He literally sees Naruto in Boruto and gets upset when he finds out that Boruto is cheating, and thus isn't like Naruto ("It seems you're quite different from Naruto; I had hoped that wasn't the case"). They have their bonfire conversation that revolves around Naruto, in which Sasuke talks about how when Naruto was a kid he was an usuratonkachi who went around screaming about how he wanted to be a Hokage (Sasuke "died" to protect this dream in the LoW and usuratonkachi is his unique nickname for Naruto— very significant in establishing Sasuke's utmost respect for Naruto). Sasuke talked about Naruto's shadow clone jutsu specialty and told Boruto not to make any excuses with his training because Naruto could make over 1000 shadow clones. When Boruto asks why Sasuke bothers with him to begin with, Sasuke tells Boruto he's strong and that while Sasuke "lost" to Naruto (referencing their emotional VOTE 2 conflict) Boruto could surpass Naruto because he was a bigger usuratonkachi than Naruto was (referencing the nickname special to their bond yet again). When Gaara says it feels like the old days with Naruto, upon seeing Boruto in Naruto's old outfit, Sasuke says not quite and then gives Boruto the headband that represents his bond with Naruto. When Boruto successfully handles the villain, Sasuke happily makes it about how he won his competition with Naruto and how the soul of a shinobi remains the same. And that's not all.

sueske

#sns #minakushi #naruto

owwllly

Okinawa, the day you became my air.

#jjk #stsg #goge

snow124-art

Golden

#fma #edwin

closetgakure

A year of enjoying the scenery together, the blank period we deserved...

#sns

closetgakure

A year of enjoying the scenery together, the blank period we deserved...

maoam

Hey. What do you think of this?

https://at.tumblr.com/leportraitducadavre/i-created-sasuke-as-a-rival-to-naruto-who-does-not/on6eda4aa9qv

He is talking about mere rivalry. Which is true, Sasuke is shown to not compete with Naruto when he is first introduced. But Naruto and Sasuke's bond was never so simple as typical shonen rivalry.

It's simple really. At the beginning, when Naruto discovered Sasuke, he was excited, he wanted to be Sasuke's friend. The mere idea of being around Sasuke made him feel giddy. But he couldn't, because he felt the difference between them was too great. Sasuke was too cool, too amazing in Naruto's eyes. So he made Sasuke his rival to get close to him. It's a reconstruction of a typical shonen rivalry in a sense.

As for Sasuke, Naruto made him feel warm and at ease. But he thought it was a weakness, so he didn't want to get close to him. That is the point. Sasuke tried not to care about anyone because he thought it would hinder his goal to get revenge. But he had been feeling weak for Naruto since he was 8 years old.

And like Sasuke himself said, he ended up on the same team with Naruto regardless. And due to fighting with him, spending time with him, he started to pay attention to Naruto's growth. And he got jealous. But he also liked being with him, and he started to heal. He also hurted when he saw Naruto hurting. Literally the first meaningful thing he does as a character is roast Sakura to a crisp when she's being ignorant about Naruto's suffering. Lol.

Yeah Naruto is not that relevant to Sasuke's character. He just happens to remember every micro interaction between them before he dies for him while sacrificing his life goal in the process. Lol.

They are driving each other to grow both physically and emotionally. In the Chunin exams Sasuke finally acknowledged Naruto as someone he'd like to fight with. Orochimaru also took notice how big of an influence Naruto had on Sasuke's heart, and he felt he needed to separate them as soon as possible so Sasuke wouldn't heal too much. This is naturally nothing worth noting right?

And then comes Itachi and the rest is history. It's complex but also simple. Sasuke himself said Naruto became his most closest friend and he thought killing him would give him the Mangekyo Sharingan. "It's not insignificant". He says it himself. What is it about this that is so hard for people to understand? Sasuke feels Naruto is an obstacle for him, because he loves him too much. That's one of the reasons he left. Like come on, people should be smarter than thinking Naruto is barely relevant to Sasuke's character, just because Sasuke focuses on Itachi when he is trailing him or fighting him. It doesn't change the fact he is always very focused on Naruto when they actually meet.

The reason Kishimoto dedicated this many panels to Sasuke staring at an unconscious Naruto, with pained expressions, with rain symbolising him crying, with regret in his voice, was clearly to show Sasuke doesn't care about Naruto that much. Is that how people read this fight?

In the end of Part 1, Sasuke decides that he will reject Itachi's method of gaining the Mangekyou Sharingan and find his own way. Is it a big decision? Yes, since his life has been dictated by Itachi, and later we found out Itachi tried to dictate it to the point where Sasuke would be a robot serving Konoha without free will. For Sasuke this moment represents the first step towards freedom from Itachi's shadow. This is the kind of change that only Naruto can inspire in him.

Sasuke's love for Naruto is a huge part of his character, and I pity people who don't see it, because they are missing out. I mean really, the only time when Sasuke cries out of happiness and not out of grief is when Naruto tells him how strongly he feels for him.

I'd also advice people to actually read the manga and pay attention to the whole narrative, instead of taking Kishimoto's interviews and interpreting them to their own favor that doesn't align with what the story actually presents. It might open a whole new world for them.

#sns meta

maoam

hello, you said that sasuke is attracted to Naruto, he is physically drawn to him ? i never noticed that could you please tell me where did you notice that

When Team 7 reunites again at the start of part 2, Sasuke does this:

Kishimoto never makes Sasuke do things like this to anyone else. And there was no need to do this either. But he can't help but get close to his boo. As people have pointed out, he's acting like some femme fatale, getting close and whispering into Naruto's ear and taunting him.

Even in their fight, he just has to get very physical. Even when we have seen Sasuke is a mid-long range type fighter, and thus doesn't need to get close to his opponents (and he doesn't, even when it's Itachi). But with Naruto it's different of course.

Even in things like this, Sasuke is doing something he normally wouldn't do, pulling Naruto's ear affectionately. Also he seems kind of frustrated. Like he wants to get closer. Where I have seen similar expression?

Hmm.

There is of course a lot of staring, I don't think SS needs to talk about staring when whenever Sakura and Naruto are around Sasuke, Sasuke is always focused on Naruto. And Naruto's eyes are the ones he can't escape. Haha. He is also often seen stealing glances during the war when Naruto is not looking. When Naruto has his chakra on Sasuke, the latter looks vulnerable.

Sasuke is not as sexual as Naruto, but he is still attracted to his usuratonkachi, and the difference between Naruto and other people in his eyes is huge.

#sns meta

maoam

Naruto and Sasuke have a time out where they are just standing and talking and not doing anything physical. Sasuke has two tomoe so far. Sasuke asks Naruto why he is doing all this.

Naruto tells his reason, and Kishimoto gives the readers a peek to the past. A moment that was meaningful for both boys. Sasuke is shook and then closes his eyes in thought.

Sasuke awakens his third tomoe, due to the emotional turmoil Naruto’s words have caused, and because of the grief of realising he has to break his bond with Naruto for good.

This is basic visual storytelling. I can’t even process how anyone could bring up a headcanon on how “Sasuke was exhausted, that’s why he awakened the third tomoe, it has nothing to do with emotion” in order to brush away how important Naruto is to Sasuke. All this because Sasuke’s eyes never reacted to Sakura…

Kishimoto would roll his eyes if he knew how some people read his manga. Not even mentioning how Sasuke was trying to get the mangekyo sharingan by killing Naruto, because the trauma and grief due to it would give it to him. In the end he couldn’t do it, but he did get MS when he found out the tragic truth about his clan.