anyways I got this commission from the amazing @cruelfrenzyalchemist a couple days ago and I have literally not been able to stop thinking about it. I've always loved her art, but she brought the idea to life better than I could have even imagined!
the lotus design on Jiang Cheng's outfit??? Xichen's dazed, starstruck expression? the blue highlights on the silk paralleling the bits of blue in LXC's ribbon?
When Simon finally opens up to Grace about his past, being in prison for 16 years, telling him about Filament Station, about Eden- Grace suddenly stops him.
Because Grace is very good at math.
Simon seems to be in his early 30âs⊠meaning if he was locked up for 16 years he could have been anywhere from 13-18 at the time of the attack. Grace had been a middle school teacher. He had taught that exact age range, before watching those same kids that he taught grow and go to the high school in the next building over.
The idea of one of his kids being held responsible for 65 deaths and then sentenced to prison is enraging enough. The more he learns about the cult Simon was raised in- it sets off every alarm Grace had ever had as a teacher.
The fact that Simon was a child soldier and Grace was a child educator is not talked about enough.
I need Simon to be âforgivenâ by someone who understands that he was just a kid who had been groomed by a cult
deeply funny to me when MDZS fans pretend that the first siege of the burial mounds happened because of The Classism :( and not in reaction to the multiple killings, justified or not, that wei wuxian and wen ning committed
Mmm... while I don't necessarily disagree with you, I do think there's some interesting things to be said about who, in the world of MDZS, is allowed to kill - who is entitled to things like self-defense and revenge.
Yes, Wei Wuxian and Wen Ning killed a lot of people - as a direct result of being ambushed and attacked. If WWX had still been an upstanding member of a major sect, with a good reputation and the Jiang at the height of their power backing him, had been jumped by a contingent of Jin cultivators because of a baseless accusation with no proof beyond "trust me bro," nobody in the cultivation world would have batted an eye if he and his faithful retainer sent them home in boxes. (Admittedly the Jin sect heir getting caught in the crossfire would still have been one hell of a complication, but even then I think at least some people would be arguing to call it a tragic accident and I don't think anyone would be condoning wholesale slaughter.) Because as a member of a powerful sect, he would be considered to have the right to defend himself from an attack. As the Yiling Patriarch, he does not.
Killing the guards previously at the prison camp doesn't quite fall into the same classism model, but you can still see this concept at play of who is allowed to defend themself and their family and who isn't. Most people would consider it justified to strike back against someone who mistreats you, kills your friends and relatives, abuses old people and children (were there any kids besides a-Yuan left in the camp when WWX got there?? What do you think happened to the others?), etc... unless â you and your family are associated with a defeated enemy, in which case you'd better shut up and take it.
(See also: Jin Guangyao killing Nie Mingjue is considered a horrific crime, even though NMJ tried to kill him multiple times before and gave every indication of being willing to try again. Who is allowed to do violence? Who is allowed to defend themself?
See also: JGY, now powerful in his own right, wipes out an entire sect - not just the people responsible - in revenge for the murder of a child, and it's seen as right and just. Xue Yang wipes out an entire sect for the cruelly deliberate maiming of a child (and let's be honest, given his poverty and lack of access to medicine it's a minor miracle it didn't kill him), and it's seen as unconscionable. Who is allowed justice? Who is allowed revenge?)
So yes, you're extremely right that the siege wasn't just people rubbing their hands together evilly like "let's go kill all these helpless people because we're so powerful and we can." It absolutely was in response to the violence WWX and WN did! They probably felt horrified and wronged, and justified in their revenge! BUT. I think there's room to argue that they felt so shocked and horrified by the deaths because WWX and WN were not, at that point in the story, part of the class of people who were considered "allowed" to defend themselves against their social betters, let alone people who deserved to have their side of the story heard.
(Before anyone says it, yes I'm aware that I'm kind of folding the "Wen Ning goes berserk" part of the story into the larger "Qiongqi Pass massacre leads to the first siege"; I'm doing so for two reasons. 1, because Wen Ning wouldn't have been in that position if people hadn't reacted the way they had to Qiongqi Pass, and 2, because we only get the story of what happened 2nd/3rd hand, and we know at least part of what we're originally told about it is a lie - WN wasn't destroyed. There's no way to know how much else of the story is unreliable, especially since the people in power have a vested interest in shaping public perception of it. So I'm not gonna try to sift through exactly what happened and make sense of it when we don't actually have a reliable account of it.)
yeah in hindsight you're correct and my original post was lacking nuance. i wrote it rather quickly in reaction to a common phenomenon i see in the fandom, which is to attribute the first siege of the burial mounds solely to wei wuxian's class while not taking into account at all the fact that he did kill a bunch of people.
i also agree that the question you bring up - whose acts of violence are sanctioned by society, and whose are not - is arguably one of the central themes of MDZS. this is especially true in the case of xue yang, as his entire arc is built around this question. as you pointed out, other character (eg. jin guangyao) are allowed to wipe out entire sects with society's full approval, but xue yang doing the same is not socially sanctioned in the same way. and the maiming of xue yang's body, which prompted a lot of xue yang's future violence, would have been unacceptable had it happened to a higher-status character, underscoring the theme that not all acts of the same violence, targets of the same violence, and perpetrators of the same violence are made equal in society's eyes.
that said, one thing i really admire about the writing of MDZS is that it does not make the background characters idiots. there are in fact no shortage of stories about a sad misunderstood protagonist, who due to various reasons - including societal prejudice - is unfairly maligned and persecuted by society; these stories, however, often rely on the background characters perpetrating this persecution to be complete idiots. in order for these stories to work, the background characters often have to have an irrational hatred of the main character that borders on obsessive, such that they will go to ridiculous lengths to ruin the main character's life over literally nothing, even though realistically most people have better things to do with their lives. in order for these stories to work, the background characters also often have to be incredibly stupid, such that they can directly witness the main character being virtuous or harmless and still believe some random antagonist going "but he's Bad!" with zero evidence.
such stories, which makes the average person inside of it a complete moron, are dogshit. happily, though, MDZS is a better-written work, and thus does not suffer from the same problem. one of the smartest things about MDZS is that, if you analyze the story based on what information the average outside observer would have access to, the logic that leads them to the first siege of the burial mounds is reasonable.
as an outside observer, this is all of the information you have access to about the background leading up to the qiongqi pass massacre:
during the sunshot campaign, wei wuxian invents demonic cultivation. he uses it to raise the dead and use them to win the war against the wen.
after the war, wei wuxian continues to use demonic cultivation, refusing to return to the path of righteous cultivation or even carry his sword. he continues to use his demonic cultivation in flashy ways at public events (eg. claiming 1/3 of the prey at the phoenix mountain nighthunt). as a result, demonic cultivator hopefuls start cropping up, hoping to learn this heretical, corpse-desecrating cultivation from him. wei wuxian does nothing to dissuade these people.
furthermore, wei wuxian does not heed the words of his sect leader, and instead openly disrespects him.
wei wuxian crashes a jin party he was not invited to and accuses jin zixun of abusing the wen prisoners under the latter's purview. when jin zixun refuses to tell wei wuxian where wen ning is, wei wuxian threatens to kill everyone gathered ("if i wanted to kill everyone here, who could stop me? who dares stop me?").
upon learning that wen ning is at a labor camp in the qiongqi pass, wei wuxian kills 4 of the supervisors there, escapes with the wen prisoners, and sets up camp in the burial mounds.
wei wuxian's sect leader, jiang wanyin, challenges wei wuxian's actions; this results in a physical fight between the two and yunmeng jiang severing all political ties with wei wuxian.
wei wuxian refines wen ning into the world's most powerful fierce corpse in existence, a feat never before seen in the cultivation world.
wei wuxian continues to publicly use his demonic cultivation, which includes bringing his one-of-a-kind and incredibly powerful fierce corpse with him on nighthunts. as a result, more demonic cultivator hopefuls gather in yiling, hoping to learn demonic cultivation from wei wuxian.
here, there is plenty of room for classism and other prejudices to bias an outside observer against wei wuxian. for example, in #3 of the first list, if wei wuxian had been nobly born (instead of the son of wei changze, jiang fengmian's former servant), then people would probably not gossip about him not respecting his sect leader in the same way that they did in canon. furthermore, had wei wuxian been nobly born, then it is possible that the public would not have viewed his continued usage of demonic cultivation in as negative a light, either (#2 on the list): for example, maybe they would not have seen him claiming 1/3 of the prey at the phoenix mountain nighthunt as an arrogant move in the same way they did in canon, given that nie mingjue also claimed an entire third and no one had any complaints about that.
furthermore, had wei wuxian been nobly born, then it is possible that the public would not have as much of an issue with him publicly challenging jin guangshan and lanling jin on the issue of the wen prisoners. from the narration, it seems that part of the reason why the public takes issue with wei wuxian publicly challenging jin guangshan in this matter is because they view it as wei wuxian, the son of a servant, disrespecting a social better. however, it must be noted that this event happened during a time when yunmeng jiang was very weak, and yunmeng jiang was not invited at all to the party that wei wuxian crashed - a sign of disrespect. thus, even if wei wuxian had been nobly born, it is likely that the public still would have had a problem with wei wuxian challenging jin guangshan and comparing him to wen ruohan, because of yunmeng jiang's weakness as compared to lanling jin.
however, it must be noted that, during the time period of the first list above, classism was not the only bias turning people against wei wuxian. one of the problems people had with wei wuxian was his usage of demonic cultivation (which they did not think of as "ghost cultivation," regardless of whether or not that was what it actually was) itself, because the demonic cultivation itself was already viewed as heretical. even if wei wuxian had been nobly born, his continued open usage of demonic cultivation would still have been viewed as a problem. this bias against demonic cultivation actually has very little to do with classism (no matter how many pseudoacademic essays one might see about demonic cultivation being "democratic" lmao), because the cultural taboo against desecrating the dead has nothing to do with class (and in fact, historically speaking, things were often the other way around: the bodies of the poor get desecrated, while the bodies of the rich do not). keep in mind that this was the same era in which wei wuxian was puppetting around the corpses of dead women to fawn over him - how would you feel if that was the corpse of your daughter, your sister, yourself? did she consent to have her body be used in that way?
furthermore, wei wuxian's open usage of demonic cultivation was inspiring other people to want to learn demonic cultivation as well. even before wei wuxian left yunmeng jiang, demonic cultivation hopefuls were already seeking to learn demonic cultivation from wei wuxian, and from the point of view of the public wei wuxian did not do enough to dissuade them. and this in fact was a massive problem, as it meant more people were being swayed off what society considered to be the righteous path.
the other non-classist prejudice that biased people against wei wuxian was anti-wen bias. this is notably not classism: before the sunshot campaign, qishan wen was the most powerful sect in the cultivation world. the wen remnants are not commoners; they are fallen nobility. the remaining wen being persona non grata postwar has nothing to do with classism and instead has everything to do with the atrocities the sect the public associates with them, qishan wen, committed before the war. anti-wen prejudice is not at all comparable to classism; instead, it is best compared to anti-japanese sentiment in china after the second sino-japanese war, during which japan committed numerous war crimes against the chinese civilian populace.
therefore, the above list of information that the public could be reasonably expected to have about wei wuxian leaves plenty of room for prejudices to bias an outside observer against wei wuxian. however, of those prejudices, only one is classism; non-classist prejudices such as bias against demonic cultivation and bias against the wen would have also done a lot of heavy lifting in biasing an outside observer against wei wuxian.
meanwhile, this is all the information you have access to about the events of the qiongqi pass massacre and afterwards:
wei wuxian's former shijie jiang yanli, as well as her husband jin zixuan, invite wei wuxian to their son's 100-day celebration. wei wuxian goes to attend this celebration, bringing his fierce corpse, wen ning, with him.
jin zixun accuses wei wuxian, a demonstrated demonic cultivator, of casting the hundred holes curse on him. as a result, he and a group of around 200 jin cultivators confront wei wuxian in the qiongqi pass while the latter is on his way to the celebration.
jin zixuan attempts to defuse the situation but is killed by wen ning, wei wuxian's fierce corpse.
wen ning then kills everyone else gathered as well.
jin guangshan issues a statement saying that he is willing to let this matter go if wen qing and wen ning turn themselves in.
wen qing and wen ning go to jinlintai. however, once there, wen ning kills another 20-30 cultivators, which includes not just jin cultivators but also cultivators from the lan and the nie.
as a result of this, jin guangshan calls for a gathering at nightless city to discuss the question of what to do with wei wuxian.
at the nightless city pledge conference, jin guangshan says that the earlier deal is off and declares war on wei wuxian and the remaining escaped wen prisoners.
wei wuxian then shows up to the pledge conference and starts a verbal argument with the gathered cultivators.
one of the cultivators present shoots wei wuxian. in retaliation, wei wuxian raises the corpses in nightless city and starts massacring everyone.
the outcome of this is that anywhere from 10-3000 people are killed, including wei wuxian's former shijie jiang yanli.
my Hot Take of the day is that:
if the above information is all an observer has access to, then it is entirely reasonable for the observer to conclude that the first siege is necessary.
if wei wuxian had been nobly born instead of the son of a servant, the cultivation world would have reacted to the above events in the exact same way. classism no longer factors into the conversation.
because - let's be real here - this sequence of events makes wei wuxian look really bad. an outside observer does not know that wei wuxian lost control of his one-of-a-kind ultra-powerful fierce corpse (which up until now wei wuxian has never lost control of), so it's more reasonable for an outside observer to conclude that everything wen ning did, wei wuxian deliberately ordered wen ning to do. once this assumption is made, all of the above events look really bad.
wei wuxian arguing with jin zixun about the hundred holes curse? reasonable if wei wuxian actually didn't cast the curse. wei wuxian killing jin zixuan? pretty bad, considering that jin zixuan 1. was trying to defuse the situation; 2. is the heir of lanling jin; and 3. is the husband of wei wuxian's ex-shijie. wei wuxian then killing all 200+ people gathered there? unnecessary overkill.
wen ning and wen qing saying they would turn themselves in, only for wen ning to then kill another 20-30 people at jinlintai once they let him in? this is the big one. this looks really fucking bad. an outside observer has zero reason to believe that wen ning was not acting on wei wuxian's orders when he did this - they don't know that wen qing froze wei wuxian in the burial mounds with her needles, or even that wen ning was capable of making decisions that went against wei wuxian's wishes. thus, the most reasonable conclusion for an outside observer to come to is that wei wuxian deliberately ordered wen ning to pretend to surrender so he could kill more people in jinlintai. this sort of "i surrender, suckers" maneuver is viewed poorly even by modern standards (and perfidy is considered a war crime), so it is entirely reasonable that this maneuver would make wei wuxian look terrible to outside observers.
due to this perceived perfidy, jin guangshan reneging on his previous promise to leave the wen prisoners out of the matter would be viewed by the public as harsh, but reasonable. as would jin guangshan calling for the nightless city pledge conference - given that, from the public's point of view, wei wuxian killed jin guangshan's son and heir and then had his fierce corpse pretend to surrender so he could go kill even more people in jinlintai. none of wei wuxian's (objectively correct) arguments about ethics or how one should keep their word, in the ensuing argument after wei wuxian showed up at the nightless city pledge conference, would have held any water for the gathered audience - because, from their point of view, wei wuxian broke his word first by having wen ning pretend to turn himself in only to then kill more people.
and, after the nightless city massacre, the first siege is inevitable. there is no society in the world that, given the power to do otherwise, will allow someone who slaughtered thousands of their member to continue to exist. this remains true regardless of whether this mass-slaughterer is nobly born or not - because, at that point, the matter is no longer about preserving existing social structures, but rather survival.
after all, canon has demonstrated that MDZS society will not tolerate endless unpredictable violence from anyone, even if they are powerful and/or of high status: for everyone, regardless of status, there is a threshold of violence and unpredictability that society will not tolerate. if this was not the case, then the entire sunshot campaign would not have happened at all; qishan wen before its fall, after all, was the most powerful sect, recognized by society as a noble sect of righteous cultivation.
thus i believe that, if the second list of events had happened to someone nobly born instead of wei wuxian, then the same outcome would have occurred. if the "yiling patriarch" who killed jin zixuan, whose fierce corpse turned himself in only to kill more people, and then killed another 10-3000 people at nightless city, had been wen chao instead of wei wuxian, then the same outcome - the first siege of the burial mounds - would have occurred. even if the "yiling patriarch" had had a powerful sect backing him, the events of canon (eg. the entire sunshot campaign) indicate there is only so much violence and unpredictability the public is willing to tolerate, even from people of high status, before they respond with violence in kind.
by the time of the first siege, the people's problem with wei wuxian was no longer that he did not know his station or that he enacted violence against his betters, but rather that his behavior had, from their point of view, proven that he was unpredictable and unable to be negotiated with. people are able to tolerate violence so long as they feel that violence is predictable; so long as they can be certain that, so long as they behave in specific ways, then violence can be averted. however, how is one supposed to have this reassurance if the other party is unable to be negotiated with - if the other party freely kills peacemakers (jin zixuan), pretends to surrender only to kill more people (wen ning killing more people at jinlintai), and then kills thousands more people on top of this?
thus, it is true that, prior to the qiongqi pass massacre, classism was a major factor in what biased the public against wei wuxian. it was not the only factor, as bias against demonic cultivation and bias against the wen also played a major role in biasing people against wei wuxian. neither of these have anything to do with classism: the bias against demonic cultivation is based in the fact that wei wuxian's cultivation desecrated the dead, and the wen were nobility pre-war.
however, the public's reaction to the events of the qiongqi pass massacre and afterwards are no longer primarily motivated by classism. instead, the public's reactions are motivated by the fact that, from their point of view, wei wuxian has proven himself to be unpredictably violent and unable to be negotiated with. by this point, it was no longer wei wuxian's status as the son of a servant turning the public against him, but rather his actions. had a nobly born person done exactly as wei wuxian had done, the outcome would have been the same.
I often see the argument that Jiang Cheng didnât have a choice in abandoning the Wens, as it wouldnât be wise to make enemies of the other major clans. However, I think thereâs at least a strong possibility that Jiang Cheng could have supported Wei Wuxian with the Wen thing with minimal consequences. The thing is, Jin Guangshan didnât really care that much about actually keeping the Wens in his clanâs custody as much as he didnât like that Wei Wuxian just took them. I donât even think he cared all that much that the overseers were killed; he just didnât like that Wei Wuxian disrespected his authority. So heâs not that invested in actually reclaiming the Wens, particularly since, although Wei Wuxian took about fifty of the Wens, that wasnât actually all of them. He only took the people that were captured with Wen Ning. It was only really a problem when the other clans got involved and started ganging up on Wei Wuxian. But hereâs the rub, that mob could hardly be called a monolith.
With a good enough argument, Jiang Cheng couldâve put some cracks in the mob unity, and he had a pretty strong one. Wen Ning not only helped shelter Wei Wuxian and Jiang Cheng, he also retrieved Jiang Fengmian and Yu Ziyuanâs bodies so that they could have a proper burial. The latter is arguably even more important than the former, as itâs harder to argue against. Even with it being too late to save Wen Ning, it couldâve still been enough to get amnesty for the other Wens that were under his command, as they were the ones who snuck out Jiang Fengmian and Yu Ziyuanâs bodies to pass to Wen Ning and snuck Wei Wuxian and Jiang Cheng into Wen Qingâs supervisory office. What are they gonna say? That he shouldnât repay the people who recovered and returned his parentsâ bodies to him? That he should forsake the people who are the only reason he even has his parentsâ remains to mourn? In a society where the integrity of your character is contingent on how well you treat your parents? Thereâs no easy way to spin that.
Nie Mingjue wouldnât like it, but he could be persuaded to not push the issue. See: He wanted to kill Jin Guangyao after he killed some of his men, but the combination of his debt to him and some mediating from Lan Xichen, he ultimately let him live, even swearing brotherhood with him. So heâs not someone who can ignore a debt. Nie Mingjue may not be the easiest person to bring over to your side, but heâs definitely the easiest to turn against Jin Guangshan. The whole business with Xue Yang proved that, with no amount of sworn brotherhood or opposing affluence that can make him compromise on his convictions.
Meanwhile, Lan Xichen even said there has never been word of an instance where Wen Qing took part in any of the massacres committed by the Wen. So he was already on the fence and could be convinced with a compelling enough argument. And with more knowledge of what the Wen did for Wei Wuxian, Lan Wangji would undoubtably speak up for them, which would likely force Lan Xichenâs hand to side with the Jiang.
And just like that, Jin Guangshan will have lost the support of two of the remaining four major clans in the Nie and Lan, with the third, Jiang, in support of Wei Wuxian. Mind You, Wei Wuxian would absolutely have to lay low for a while. No major public appearances for a few months, maybe even a full year to be on the safe side. Enough for the initial outrage to blow over that the witch-hunt against Wei Wuxian will have lost momentum. Debatable on whether or not Wei Wuxian would comply with that, but with enough enrichment and socialization with people unrelated to the jianghu, heâll probably manage.
I think the worst consequence that could come out of this is that Jin Guangshan will try to scupper any attempts for Jin Zixuan and Jiang Yanli to marry. However, considering that Jin Zixuan finally got his head out of his ass and is willing to marry Jiang Yanli, and when the engagement was initially broken off, Jin Guangshan actually tried to blow off the issue and maintain the engagement, wanting to avoid the bad PR and his wifeâs ire, and had to be convinced to break it off, I wouldnât be surprised if he capitulated to Madam Jin, who very much wants this marriage to happen. Especially when those Wens were the ones who recovered the remains of her close friend, Yu Ziyuan.
Unfortunately, actually navigating all that would require someone just a bit more politically savvy than Jiang Cheng, so RIP.
#i could see one simple refute to the 'brought back the bodies' argument which is#'if they had access to Lotus Pier at all#are they not accessory to your parents' murder in the first place?'
#I'm always leery of arguments that tiptoe around Wen Ning and Wen Qing's culpability in the Jiang Clan massacre#like good on them for helping out but really wn only does it for wwx#and wq does it for wn#plus you don't become a squad leader by fully not participating in your clan's warmongering
#while i agree that jgs' ultimate interests have nothing to do with the wens themselves and everything to do with power#he isn't the only one with a vested interest in the wens' continued subjugation#the reason he was allowed to whisk them away is because the wider array of clans large and small have serious grievances against them#which some of them do with wwx and his actions during the war as well#jc needs jin support but he also needs yao support (also in yunmeng) and other small clans i can't recall
#the nmj topic is more complicated than i think op is representing it as well#yes he spares jgy but with the caveat that he was supposed to atone. swearing brotherhood gives him#the political and social leverage to punish jgy for straying from the path#if the wens aren't serving retributive punishment in some way - perhaps administered by someone else sure -#i cannot see him backing down on this. just absolutely not in his nature to do
#xichen is largely invested in gusu's interests and does not care about the wens to be sure#but he would not undermine jgy who is in a precarious position atm#which means he would hesitate to stand against jgs
#i don't think it would be IMPOSSIBLE to maneuvre a way out but it would have to happen#way before wwx pulls his stunt at the camp
i think the above tags are excellent. here are my own thoughts.
section 0: understanding OP's argument
OP's argument, summarized, seems to be as thus:
jin guangshan himself does not actually care all that much about wei wuxian attacking his labor camp at qiongqi pass, only that wei wuxian disrespected his authority; thus, jin guangshan is not that invested in getting the escaped wen remnants back into lanling jin's custody.
therefore, this situation only blew up when the rest of the cultivation world involved itself.
however, jiang cheng could have convinced the majority of the cultivation world to allow him to protect the wen remnants, via the argument that jiang cheng has a moral obligation to help the wen siblings and wen ning's disciples because they helped jiang cheng after the fall of lotus pier.
more powerful political players, such as nie mingjue and lan xichen, could also be persuaded by jiang cheng to stand with him and against jin guangshan.
therefore, it was entirely possible for jiang cheng to convince the rest of the cultivation world minus jin guangshan to allow him to protect the wen remnants.
finding himself outnumbered, jin guangshan would back down on any bids to demonize wei wuxian. which then means that wei wuxian could just lay low until this all blew over.
i do not agree with this argument. my disagreement takes the following form:
jiang cheng would not be able to convince the rest of the cultivation world to allow him to protect the wen remnants with the line of reasoning described in OP's post. this is because 1. other people who are not jiang cheng have no particular obligation to care about what jiagn cheng specifically is morally obligated to do; and 2. politicians do not actually care about ethics, and instead only care about maintaining the appearance of ethics - however, what moralizing stances are necessary for "maintaining appearances" is determined by the people in power.
jin guangshan has a vested interest in maintaining a negative narrative about wei wuxian and anyone allied with him, because jin guangshan both needs to maintain lanling jin's position/power and wants the yin tiger tally. thus, if yunmeng jiang decided to shield wie wuxian and the wen remnants, then jin guangshan would stir up the mob against not just wei wuxian but also yunmeng jiang as well, in order to obtain a pretext by which he could seize the yin tiger tally.
neither lan xichen nor nie mingjue would be motivated to stand with yunmeng jiang, if yunmeng jiang decided to shield wei wuxian and the wen remnants. this is because 1. jin guangyao is helping lan xichen rebuild the cloud recesses, and lan xichen alienating lanling jin could compromise that; and 2. nie mingjue sees the wen remnants as evildoers who deserve to be punished with death, and no amount of jiang cheng specifically owing them a debt will change that because jiang cheng's debts are not nie mingjue's debts.
if yunmeng jiang does choose to shield wei wuxian and the wen remnants, then all of this combined produces a state of affairs in which a weakened political entity picks a fight with a much stronger political entity, for the sake of protecting an incredibly unpopular group of people. in such a situation, no one would want to stand with yunmeng jiang; thus, yunmeng jiang would stand alone.
section 1: on jiang cheng's ability to persuade the rest of the cultivation world
my biggest complaints with OP's argument have to do with how OP assumes jiang cheng should have been able to convince the rest of the cultivation world ("the mob," as OP puts it) to allow him to protect the wen remnants.
my complaints are twofold:
no one else is going to care about [what jiang cheng specifically is morally obligated to do].
politicians don't care about ethics.
section 1.1: no one else is going to care about [what jiang cheng specifically is morally obligated to do]
the assumption here seems to be that, so long as jiang cheng puts forth a sufficiently persuasive argument as to why he specifically has a moral obligation to protect the wen siblings and wen ning's disciples, then the rest of the cultivation world will conclude that Well Of Course He Should Do This and then just freely allow him to do so. so long as no one can come up with a persuasive moral argument as to why jiang cheng himself morally should not protect the wen remnants ("What are they gonna say? That he shouldnât repay the people who recovered and returned his parentsâ bodies to him?"), then well of course they have to let him protect the wen remnants.
this is not how politics works. this is not how human psychology works, either.
it is true that jiang cheng could have put forth a convincing argument as to why he, jiang cheng of yunmeng jiang specifically, has a moral obligation to help the wen siblings. however - just as is the case in real life - why should anyone who is not jiang cheng care about what jiang cheng is morally obligated to do?
so jiang cheng has a moral obligation to protect the wen siblings. so what? that's his moral obligation, not my moral obligation. if i'm some random sect leader, then why should i care what jiang cheng is morally obligated to do? if my children were slaughtered by wen ruohan, then why should i care if some other sect leader has a moral obligation to help wen ruohan's favored niece (who, by the way, was running a supervisory office for qishan wen in yiling during the sunshot campaign)?
because the context that's really missing here is that the majority of the cultivation world has pre-existing grievances against qishan wen and anyone associated with them. the cultivation world just got out of an incredibly bloody war against qishan wen, which was preceded by a campaign of conquest, subjugation, and violence against them by qishan wen - of course people have their own grievances against qishan wen! any argument jiang cheng puts forth as to why the cultivation world should allow him to shield the people they wish to revenge themselves against is coming up against this grievance at years of violence and death as an opponent. and yet, according to OP, all jiang cheng needs to provide is an argument as to why he specifically is morally obligated to help the wen remnants - not even why the rest of the cultivation world should allow him to help the wen remnants.
does the difference in subject make sense here?
from wen zhuliu's point of view, he had a moral obligation to protect wen chao. thus wen zhuliu continued to protect wen chao even after wei wuxian got out of the burial mounds and started hunting them both down, instead of fleeing for his own life. did wei wuxian care that wen zhuliu thought he had a moral obligation to protect wen chao? did wei wuxian stop and go "oh shit, wen zhuliu is morally obligated to protect wen chao!!! guess i should just give up on my revenge and let him do that!!!!" no, he didn't. he bulldozed through wen zhuliu and killed wen chao anyways.
it's incredibly naive to presume that, so long as jiang cheng puts forth a sufficiently persuasive argument as to why he's morally obligated to help the wen siblings, then the rest of the cultivation world will be persuaded to back down in the slightest. if i personally suffered as a result of wen ruohan's actions, why should i care about what jiang cheng is morally obligated to do? if i personally benefit from the subjugation of the wen remnants, why should i care about what jiang cheng is morally obligated to do? if i personally believe that the morally correct outcome is for all of the wen to be punished for their inaction during wen ruohan's reign (as is the case for nie mingjue), then why should i care about what jiang cheng specifically is morally obligated to do, when i am not jiang cheng and his moral obligations are not my moral obligations?
jiang cheng is morally obligated to help the wen siblings - great, good for him. but why should i allow what he is obligated to do to affect my own actions and choices?
if jiang cheng wants me to let him protect the wen remnants, then he should not be bothering with arguments as to why he is morally obligated to protect the wen remnants. instead, he should be giving me an argument as to why i and the rest of the cultivation world am morally obligated to let him protect the wen remnants.
section 1.2: politicians don't care about ethics
OP's argument as to how jiang cheng could convince the rest of the cultivation world to allow him to protect the wen remnants is also based on the broader assumption that the cultivation world, and sect leaders in particular, generally cares about ethics. both the text of MDZS and real life politics indicate otherwise.
let us presume for a moment that, instead of putting forth an argument as to why he specifically is morally obligated to protect the wen remnants, jiang cheng put forth an argument as to why everyone in the cultivation world is morally obligated to allow him to protect the wen remnants. let us also presume that this argument was completely airtight, and not a single person in the entire cultivation world could come up with a remotely convincing counterargument.
in such a situation, the cultivation world would still not allow jiang cheng to protect the wen remnants.
the fact is that the world does not operate on rules of Right Makes Might. in fact, you will find that history is full of moments in which some individual makes a convincing moral argument as to a certain course of action is morally mandatory, and why everyone with the power to do so should immediately undertake this course of action. you will also find that history is full of moments in which these persuasive moral arguments are completely ignored. at the end of the day, no major political player actually cares how convincing a moral reason there exists to undertake a certain action, so long as said action goes against their own interests. you can argue until you're blue in the face as to why everyone is morally obligated to do XYZ, and every politician listening can agree that they have no rebuttal to your argument - yet, so long as people doing XYZ goes against their interests, they will oppose XYZ anyways.
politicians do not make political decisions based on what is morally right versus what is morally wrong; they make decisions based on what benefits their political career and/or what benefits the entity they are leading. most politicians are only concerned about the former; better politicians are concerned about the former and the latter. some politicians, of course, also care about what is morally right - but no politician who lasts long puts [what is morally right] above [what benefits the political entity i am leading].
instead, politicians generally only care about what is "morally right" insofar as it affects appearances - but there is no shortage of scenario in which appearing "ethical" either does not matter or can be freely manipulated. as both real life and the text of MDZS indicate, we live in a world that operates on the principle of Might Makes Right. what is called "good" by our leaders, by our media, by our fellows, is too often dictated not by actual moral philosophy, but rather by posthoc reasoning to justify a decision made for personal or political benefit.
a politician dealing with a refugee crisis may consider the moral issue of whether or not there is an ethical obligation to help these refugees, but only after she considers the question of how her handling of the refugee crisis will affect her own political career, and how her handling of the refugee crisis will affect her own country, both domestically and on the international stage. if the politician has decided to help the refugees, then the politician will go with the poor unfortunate displaced person narrative - but, if the politician decides to shut her borders instead, then she will doubtlessly instead employ the evil invader narrative instead. right and wrong are window dressing to justify premade decisions. and the question of which moralizing statement becomes necessary for appearances, versus which moralizing statement gets dismissed as bullshit, is determined by the question of which speaker holds power.
a politician dealing with a neighboring country getting into a spat with a far more powerful superpower will be the same: far before considering moral questions, the politician will first have to consider how her choices for her country will affect her political career, and how said choices will affect her nation's standing on the geopolitical stage. if the politician gets involved and sides with the neighboring country, how will the superpower react? how will this impact her country's standing with the superpower? and how will all of this affect her ratings back home? depending on the politician's decision, either the superpower or the neighboring country becomes the villain, and the other the wronged valiant hero; ethics does not motivate political decision-making but is rather manipulated into serving as posthoc justification.
all of the sects of the cultivation world in MDZS would have been the same, during the meeting in which everyone grilled jiang cheng on wei wuxian's actions. the gathered sect leaders, though paying lip service to the concept of ethics, would not have been making their political decisions based on ethics at all. rather, if jiang cheng had insisted on shielding wei wuxian and the wen remnants, all those sect leaders would instead be considering questions similar to the above: will yunmeng jiang actually alienate lanling jin? if so, how will lanling jin react, and will lanling jin retaliate against yunmeng jiang? if i speak in favor of yunmeng jiang, then will lanling jin retaliate against my sect as well - whether that be economically, diplomatically, or with physical force - and can my sect withstand the political consequences of alienating lanling jin? and then, on top of this, the fact that the people back home in my sect have justified grievances against the wen and wish to see the surviving wen punished - would my leadership be destabilized if my sect members saw me putting our sect at risk to protect a group of people they themselves despise?
the question of "is it morally correct to allow yunmeng jiang to protect the wen remnants" would only be a distant second to all of these concerns. it might be of greater concern if the players at the locus of power were actually concerned with the plight of the wen remnants, but this is not the case; instead, as will be discussed below, the people in power are most interested in demonizing wei wuxian. as discussed above, "right" and "wrong" are freely manipulated to justify political decisions, and which "moral statement" becomes necessary for appearances is determined by which parties hold power - in this case, it is too easy to come up with an argument that makes the wen remnants and anyone who supports them look like villains instead. doesn't the fact that wen ning was present to save jiang cheng prove that wen ning and his disciples participated in the fall of lotus pier (and who can prove the truth, which is that wen ning only showed up afterwards)? doesn't the fact that wen qing never rebelled against wen ruohan mean that she's guilty by inaction of allowing his evildoing to pass? who can provide a full list of all the wartime actions of every single wen remnant that wei wuxian freed - can it truly be proven that none of them harmed a single innocent person? and, if it cannot be proven - isn't it so terrible that wei wuxian is ditching the sect that raised him in favor of protecting a bunch of unrepentant murderers?
obviously, all of these arguments are bullshit. but it doesn't matter that they're bullshit, because no one in the room actually cares about the ethics of what's going on. instead, these bullshit arguments are just for appearances - because, so long as the people making these arguments are powerful enough, no one will protest.
thus, even if jiang cheng put forth a completely airtight moral argument as to why everyone should allow him to protect the wen remnants, it would not matter, because political decision-making is not motivated by ethics, and because what "ethics" do matter for appearances is determined by the interests of those in power.
(in fact, i'd argue that the idea that politicians do not actually care about ethics, and the idea that which moralizing stances are necessary for "maintaining appearances" is determined by those in power, are in fact centrally relevant to the themes of MDZS. arguably The Whole Point of MDZS as a novel.)
instead, every sect leader in the room would instead be watching the reaction of jin guangshan, who as the leader of lanling jin is the most powerful person in the room. how does jin guangshan react? how do the other great sects react? how do the rest of the sects react? these questions, rather than any questions regarding morality, would dictate how the sect leaders respond.
with that in mind, let's take a look at how the other political players in this situation would be responding.
section 2: regarding jin guangshan's motives
the most significant political player in this situation, other than jiang cheng himself, is jin guangshan, the leader of the sect running the labor camp that wei wuxian attacked. OP asserts that jin guangshan does not actually care all that much about the attack on his qiongqi pass labor camp, whether that be the deaths of four supervisors under his purview or the escape of 50 or so wen remnants; this assertion then seems to serve as the basis of the subsequent argument that jin guangshan will not act that strongly to get the wen remnants back into lanling jin's custody.
personally, i don't know how jin guangshan actually feels about this event either. i don't know if his personal reaction to it was anger, or humiliation, or irritation, or glee. but, the thing is: this doesn't matter.
jin guangshan's personal feelings in this matter don't actually matter, because jin guangshan is a politician. he is the leader of lanling jin, meaning that he represents lanling jin on the political stage; thus, even if jin guangshan personally does not care about wei wuxian's attack on lanling jin's labor camp, on a political level he's still obligated to respond. why? because, if he does not do so, then he runs the risk of making lanling jin look weak, and permits the idea that people can freely attack lanling jin's holdings without any consequence.
this is how power is maintained. power is established not just by economic might or military strength, but also by reputation. how does a political entity respond to attacks on its holdings? how does a political entity respond to actions that violate its interests? what consequences are there to picking a fight with a political entity, and to what degree is the political entity able to enact these consequences against the offending party? reputation, meanwhile, is established through action. if picking fights with you results in material consequences for the offender, then you gain the reputation of someone who retaliates. and if picking fights with you does not result in material consequences for the offender, then you gain the reputation of someone who can be jabbed at without consequence.
thus, even if jin guangshan himself doesn't care all that much about the attack on his labor camp, or about getting the wen remnants back, he is still obligated to respond.
and the thing is. at this point, it bears saying that an individual picking a fight with lanling jin is different from another great sect, no matter how diminished in power and wealth, picking a fight with lanling jin. in canon, yunmeng jiang's "reparation" for wei wuxian's actions is yunmeng jiang expelling wei wuxian. but, had jiang cheng protected wei wuxian and the wen remnants instead, then there would in fact be no "reparation," and the situation would become one in which one great sect had offended another great sect and offered no recompense for the act. in the xianxia/wuxia genres, wars have been started over less.
now, let's presume for a moment that lanling jin is politically strong enough to forgive a few attacks, such that doing so doesn't make them look weak and instead just makes them look forgiving and generous. in this case, OP is correct in saying that jin guangshan probably doesn't care all that much about getting the escaped wen remnants back, because it's not like clearing the wen mural in the qiongqi pass is a pressing concern for lanling jin.
however, OP is still forgetting something important here, which is that jin guangshan wants the yin tiger tally.
jin guangshan has wanted the yin tiger tally from the moment the sunshot campaign ended. that is why he tried to persuade/strongarm wei wuxian into surrendering the yin tiger tally. that is why he later had jin guangyao hire xue yang and a whole bunch of other demonic cultivators, in order to try to replicate wei wuxian's work. that is also arguably why jin guangyao calls jiang cheng stupid during the confrontation at the guanyin temple in yunping.
nor is jin guangshan's desire for the yin tiger tally particularly subtle or secret - instead, given that jin guangshan asked wei wuxian to turn over the yin tiger tally in front of a public audience, and given that lan wangji post-timeskip knows that lanling jin shielded xue yang because the latter was working on replicating the yin tiger tally, i would say that jin guangshan's desire for the yin tiger tally is something that would be entirely obvious to your average politician, or even your average observer.
now, there is this implication in OP's post that "the mob" turning against wei wuxian after his attack on the qiongqi pass labor camp has nothing to do with jin guangshan himself, and is instead merely something the mob collectively decided to do on their own - i disagree with this implication for the above reason. because jin guangshan wants the yin tiger tally, jin guangshan has a vested interest in maintaining a negative narrative around wei wuxian. jin guangshan benefits from the public turning against wei wuxian and from wei wuxian being politically isolated, because such situations make it easier for jin guangshan to take the yin tiger tally from wei wuxian.
with this in mind, let us consider another question: if jiang cheng had instead chosen to have yunmeng jiang protect wei wuxian and the wen remnants, would jin guangshan have then given up on his designs for the yin tiger tally? would he have gone "welp, now there's another sect protecting him, guess i should give up and find some other projects to work on?"
no. of course not. given jin guangshan's personality, his values, and the amount of power at his disposal - if yunmeng jiang had shielded wei wuxian and the wen remnants, then the most likely (and entirely predictable) outcome is that jin guangshan would have attempted to bulldoze through yunmeng jiang to get to wei wuxian anyways. he would have used any means possible to engineer a reason to castigate yunmeng jiang and/or wei wuxian and thus justify seizing the yin tiger tally for himself. if yunmeng jiang suffered severe damage or fell in the process - welp, too bad.
in the scenario in which yunmeng jiang shields wei wuxian and the wen remnants, the qiongqi pass incident would not be the end of things - it would only be the beginning. the situation would not "blow over," no matter how long wei wuxian spent lying low. instead, so long as jin guangshan continued to desire the yin tiger tally, jin guangshan would continue to maintain a negative narrative against wei wuxian and anyone allied with him - would continue to stir up the mob against wei wuxian and anyone allied with him - in order to eventually create a pretext to seize the yin tiger tally for himself.
section 3: regarding other major political players
now that we have established that jin guangshan has a vested interest in maintaining a negative narrative regarding wei wuxian and anyone allied with him, let us consider how other major political players in the cultivation world would respond in a situation in which yunmeng jiang shielded wei wuxian and the wen remnants. these are the leaders of the other two great sects: lan xichen and nie mingjue.
section 3.1: lan xichen
OP is also downplaying gusu lan and lanling jin's postwar relationship. the cloud recesses were burned right before the start of the sunshot campaign, and much of gusu lan's postwar work was focused on rebuilding the cloud recesses; this rebuilding was aided in no small part by jin guangyao, due to his sworn brotherhood with lan xichen. thus, postwar lan xichen would in fact have had a major incentive to not alienate jin guangshan, who as jin guangyao's sect leader has the power to force jin guangyao to cease this aid.
if yunmeng jiang shielded wei wuxian and the wen remnants, after wei wuxian attacked a jin outpost and killed four supervisors associated with the jin, and then gusu lan sided with yunmeng jiang instead of lanling jin, then it would be incredibly likely that jin guangshan would forcibly end this aid. i'm sure someone could argue that lan xichen would side with yunmeng jiang anyways, but, in my view, doing so would be not at all consistent with lan xichen's established characterization as someone heavily motivated by duty to sect and family.
thus, if yunmeng jiang had chosen to shield wei wuxian and the wen remnants, then it is far more likely than not that lan xichen would not stand with yunmeng jiang.
section 3.2: nie mingjue
first, it must be established that nie mingjue thinks of the wen remnants as evildoers. from his point of view, the wen that actively participated in wen ruohan's campaigns of conquest and murder, including that of nie mingjue's father, deserve death for their active participation in evil - and the wen that passively allowed these evils to happen without taking action against wen ruohan are guilty as well. nie mingjue's view of qishan wen and the wen remnants is also heavily informed by the murder of his father by wen ruohan, which frankly speaking nie mingjue is not getting over anytime soon. "but she did not personally kill anyone" is not a sufficient defense to nie mingjue; from his point of view, if you allowed evil to occur through inaction, then you are still guilty and still deserve to be punished.
but wait! nie mingjue forgave jin guangyao for past wrongdoings! well, as monabee-draws's tags discuss, nie mingjue's "forgiveness" of jin guangyao is predicated on their previous positive history (that is, before meng yao faked suicide to avoid getting executed for killing his supervisor); nie mingjue both believes that jin guangyao can still turn back to the path of righteousness, and sees the sworn brotherhood as (to quote monabee-draws) giving nie mingjue "the political and social leverage to punish jin guangyao for straying from the path." meanwhile, from nie mingjue's point of view, dying is the method by which the wen remnants should atone for their past wrongdoings, and saving them from suffering and death is the same as allowing them to escape consequences for their wrongdoing.
in addition, both nie mingjue himself and the sunshot campaign in general owe their lives and successes to jin guangyao. jin guangyao, no matter how terribly he did it, did save nie mingjue's life during that confrontation with wen ruohan (at the expense of nie mingjue's men); furthermore, jin guangyao's work as a spy for the sunshot campaign is a significant factor in why the sunshot campaign succeeded. nie mingjue thus owes jin guangyao a life debt.
but wait! jiang cheng also owes the wen siblings a life debt! however, as established above, jiang cheng's debts are jiang cheng's debts. they are not nie mingjue's debts. nie mingjue has no obligation to pay jiang cheng's debts. i simply do not see nie mingjue giving up on an entire blood feud simply because someone else who is not nie mingjue or any of nie mingjue's loved ones owes some of the wen a life debt.
furthermore, we in fact do also know how nie mingjue responds when he sees someone to whom he owes a life debt committing an act of unforgivable evil. when jin guangyao crosses a line in nie mingjue's eyes, nie mingjue says that he will kill jin guangyao for this evil, and then kill himself for killing the person to whom he owes his life. personally, i believe that nie mingjue fully meant this.
thus, if jiang cheng insisted that, no matter what other evils of qishan wen that wen qing permitted through inaction, he still owes his life to her, i find it highly unlikely that nie mingjue would be persuaded by this reasoning to (from his point of view) allow wen qing to escape punishment. from nie mingjue's point of view, wen qing not taking decisive action against wen ruohan means that she is guilty via inaction of allowing his evildoing to take place, and this to nie mingjue is a sin deserving death. thus, it's far more likely that nie mingjue would tell jiang cheng to let wen qing be justly executed for this sin, and then to kill himself.
section 4: the cultivation world, revisited
thusfar, we have established that, in the scenario in which yunmeng jiang insists on shielding wei wuxian and the wen remnants:
the other sect leaders would make their decisions based not on ethics, but rather on consideration for their own political careers and the wellbeings of their own sects.
jin guangshan would have a vested interest in maintaining a negative narrative around wei wuxian and anyone allied with him, because he wants the yin tiger tally and a good pretext to take it for himself.
the other two great sect leaders, lan xichen and nie mingjue, don't have much reason to stand with yunmeng jiang.
some additional information from canon to consider:
at the start of the sunshot campaign, yunmeng jiang was completely decimated; furthermore, lotus pier was occupied by qishan wen for a period of time.
lanling jin avoided joining the sunshot campaign until the last minute and also did not participte as actively; due to this, in the postwar landscape, lanling jin is one of the richest sects and the most untouched by war.
ill will and negative rumors about wei wuxian were already swirling even before he attacked the qiongqi pass labor camp, because people were afraid of his demonic cultivation and its popularity. even before the qiongqi pass labor camp attack, people were already criticizing wei wuxian for not carrying his sword and for practicing heretical cultivation.
ill will towards qishan wen and the wen remnants was widespread, and not just a product of jin guangshan's machinations. recall that qishan wen, before its fall, conquered and subjugated many other sects, not just yunmeng jiang; recall also that the cultivation world just got out of a bloody and high-casualty war with qishan wen. canon directly states that, postwar, anything associated with qishan wen was anathema to the cultivation world, and that people considered merely being from the wen family a sin worthy of punishment (note that collective/family punishment was in fact the norm for historical china).
many people, not just lanling jin, benefitted from the fall of qishan wen. postwar, qishan wen's holdings were divided among the sunshot campaign's participants.
in light of all this, the most likely outcome of yunmeng jiang shielding wei wuxian and the wen remnants is that jin guangshan successfully turns the narrative against not just wei wuxian, but yunmeng jiang as a whole. jin guangshan has a motive to do so: he both needs to maintain lanling jin's power by retaliating against a sect that alienated lanling jin, and wants the yin tiger tally. lanling jin, meanwhile, is much stronger than yunmeng jiang. the other two great sect leaders, lan xichen and nie mingjue, will not stand up for yunmeng jiang either.
meanwhile, ill will towards both anyone associated with qishan wen and wei wuxian himself is already widespread among the general cultivator populace. people also benefitted from the subjugation of the wen remnants.
all of this combined creates a situation in which one weakened major political entity is essentially picking a fight with a much more rich and powerful major political entity, all while standing alone and without the support of the other two major political entities. this weakened major political entity is picking this fight in order to protect a group of people who are already incredibly unpopular with the general populace.
now, as established above, sect leaders make political decisions based not on ethics but rather on the wellbeings of their own sects. thus, in such a situation, just who would choose to stand with yunmeng jiang? just who would risk the wellbeing and safety of their own sect to stand with yunmeng jiang? who would stand with yunmeng jiang, when the risk is so great and the reward so little, and doing so could destabilize their own leadership if their decision to do so is unpopular enough with the members of their sect?
thus, in my view. if yunmeng jiang insisted on shielding wei wuxian and the wen remnants, then jiang cheng would not be able to convince anyone to stand with him. lanling jin would not back down against yunmeng jiang, and jin guangshan would successfully turn the narrative against yunmeng jiang. yunmeng jiang would stand alone.
section 5: additional thoughts
some additional thoughts on wen ning and wen qing specifically.
it's important to note that wei wuxian wen to the qiongqi pass labor camp to look for wen ning specifically, after wen qing begged him for help. regardless of whether you believe that wei wuxian saved the wen remnants due to his debt to the wen siblings specifically, or if he did so out of some agent-neutral, universal concern for the plight of innocents, it is undeniable that wei wuxian's primary reason for going to the qiongqi pass labor camp was the wen siblings specifically.
however, by this point in the story, it is already impossible for yunmeng jiang to protect both of the wen siblings specifically. why? because, by that point in the story, wen ning is already dead.
wen ning is already dead by the time wei wuxian attacks the qiongqi pass labor camp; during this attack, wei wuxian raises wen ning as a fierce corpse. then, when jiang cheng visits wei wuxian in the burial mounds three days later, wei wuxian has wen ning's body preserved and is already working on restoring his consciousness; by then, wei wuxian has already promised wen qing that he can and will restore wen ning's consciousness.
in light of this, what does yunmeng jiang protecting both of the wen siblings look like? none other than yunmeng jiang taking in both wen qing and the corpse of wen ning, and then providing wei wuxian with the facilities and resources necessary to restore wen ning's consciousness.
unfortunately, there is no way in hell that the rest of the cultivation world would just sit back and let this happen. the cultivation world is not going to just sit there and allow yunmeng jiang to freely raise sentient zombies in their own backyard. come on now. the cultivation world canonically flipped its shit and started really fearing wei wuxian because he restored wen ning's consciousness specifically; if wei wuxian had a great sect sanctioning this action, their reactions would not be any better.
thus, there is no way that jiang cheng would allow wei wuxian to restore wen ning's consciousness under jiang cheng's protection.
so let's consider alternatives. what if jiang cheng tells wei wuxian that yunmeng jiang will shield wen qing and the rest of the wen remnants, but wei wuxian must give up on returning wen ning's consciousness and let wen ning rest in peace? would wei wuxian accept this solution? would wen qing accept this solution?
i think that wen qing could be persuaded to accept this solution, though she would not be happy about it. however, given wei wuxian's characterization at this point in the story, i do not think that wei wuxian would accept this solution. instead, i think it is far more likely that wei wuxian would reject this solution, and would instead insist on leaving yunmeng jiang so that he could work on restoring wen ning's consciousness.
honestly getting sick of entry-level MDZS analyses that go âummm WWX and JC are foils bc WWX cares about other people and JC only cares about himselfâ from people who donât have the object permanence to realize that the Jiang sect postwar is also made up of people
god i just read the post and what the actual fuck? like no shit WWX didn't look for JFM/YZY. 1) those aren't his parents and he never considered them as such?? obviously JC's going to be processing that differently 2) WWX seems to accept a lot faster that there couldn't have been survivors. JC is 17 and another sect attacked his and he knows his mom is strong so it's not so unreasonable he holds the slightest sliver of hope that maybe she (and JFM ig) aren't dead? also i don't see how checking for life among the bodies is any more "self-centered" than lamenting the losses, but that's a separate thing.
also acting as though JC was supposed to attribute WWX's changed behavior to DC in particular at that point over just generalized War Trauma is a bit of a stretch. especially given WWX has just returned, and all JC cares about is that he is Alive after months of uncertainty (yes we hear you Mr. "Even if you want to die, at least die in front of me", though you'll regret that word choice later). and that's not counting the near decade of experience JC has with WWX-type behavior to the point where his biggest qualm during the CR intro of the concept of using resentful energy is that WWX should've saved those theories for discussing at Lotus Pier and not angering LQR. a decade of "yeah sometimes WWX is just Like That" that LWJ does not have at this point.
anyways sorry for going off on your post. i just. aaaaaaaa.
Yeah it's sad, but honestly, I think it's also really touching and sweet.
It says something that Jiang Cheng's first entrance is not as Sandu Shengshou or Jiang-zongzhu, but as Jin Ling's uncle. That sets up the importance of their relationship from the very beginning.
Though, I will say rebuilding the Jiang sect from near extinction does add to his reputation in a way that cannot be attributed to others in his family as well. He shares part of that with Wei Wuxian, but only part!
imo, the reason why "did wei wuxian's actions help lead to the fall of lotus pier" discourse is the way it is, is because the statement "your actions helped lead to this bad outcome" (obviously) has a connotative air of blame and accusation. thus, when people read the statement "wei wuxian's actions helped lead to the fall of lotus pier," they naturally read this to mean --and therefore wei wuxian sucks or --and therefore wei wuxian deserves to suffer.
but like. those are two new sentences and are not necessarily guaranteed by the first.
when i say that, from my point of view, wei wuxian's actions helped lead to the fall of lotus pier, i do not mean that i think he is the primary architect or that i think he deserves to suffer as a result. nor does it mean that i think he should grovel in shame forever, or whatever else.
i simply mean that, from my point of view, there is a cause-and-effect relationship between the events [wei wuxian started shit with wen chao in order to defend luo qingyang] and [wen chao attacks and massacres lotus pier, wei wuxian's sect], and that this relationship is stronger than any of the other cause-and-effect relationships leading up to the fall of lotus pier. i also mean that, had wei wuxian acted differently (ie. if he had done what lan wangji and jin zixuan had done to protect luo qingyang), then the fall of lotus pier probably would not have occurred in the exact way it did.
in my view, the single most prominent recurring theme in wei wuxian's first life is that he has genuinely heroic intentions and tries to do good, but that in the process he overestimates himself, fails to consider long-term consequences, and/or violates social orthodoxy -and, as a result, the world punishes him and those around him. this is the pattern seen in everything from wei wuxian's early beef with jin zixuan during the cloud recesses lectures, to his usage of demonic cultivation, and to his protection of the wen remnants. my reading of the fall of lotus pier - namely, that there is a cause-and-effect relationship between wei wuxian's ostentatious way of protecting luo qingyang and wen chao's massacre of lotus pier - is meant to cohere with this central theme.
with regard to the cause-and-effect relationship between [wei wuxian's actions in the xuanwu cave] and [the fall of lotus pier], i am willing to make two similar claims. these are:
there exists a nonzero cause-and-effect relationship between [wei wuxian's actions in the xuanwu cave] and [the fall of lotus pier] (the milder claim)
there exists a strong cause-and-effect relationship between [wei wuxian's actions in the xuanwu cave] and [the fall of lotus pier] (the more extreme claim)
now, let us examine what it would take to disprove either of these claims.
1: the milder claim: there exists a nonzero cause-and-effect relationship
in my opinion, if you wish to refute the claim that "there exists a nonzero cause-and-effect relationship between [wei wuxian's actions in the xuanwu cave] and [the fall of lotus pier]," then you are essentially arguing that "there exists no cause-and-effect relationship between [wei wuxian's actions in the xuanwu cave] and [the fall of lotus pier] at all."
that is to say, given the following sequence of events:
the following events take place in a setting where, if a specific person from Group A causes harm to a high-valued person from a sufficiently powerful and high-status Group B, then it is considered normal and acceptable for Group B to then completely annihilate Group A. as an example, see lanling jin's annihilation of an entire sect (accused) murder of one jin rusong, which basically everyone knows about and no one protested until it came out that there was a chance that said sact did not in fact murder jin rusong.
the sect leader of the very powerful and high-status Sect A is established to be warmongering, with designs on conquering other sects. he has already attacked another great sect.
the head disciple of Sect B humiliates and threatens to kill the son of Sect A's sect leader.
the son of Sect A's sect leader, with the support of his father, leads a campaign to wipe out all of Sect B.
if you mean to argue that there is no cause-and-effect relationship at all, then you aim to argue that there is zero logical connection between #3 and #4 - that is to say, you aim to argue that, even if #3 had not happened at all, #4 would still have happened exactly as it did in canon. to move away from the numbers - this means you aim to argue that, even if wei wuxian had not been present at the wen indoctrination camp at all, the fall of lotus pier still would have happened exactly as it did in canon.
is this believable?
or, should i say - if someone wrote a story with the above sequence of events, and then asked you to fully believe that there was zero logical connection between #3 and #4 - would that be a good writing decision?
2: the more extreme claim: there exists a strong cause-and-effect relationship
from what i've seen, people who wish to refute the claim that "there exists a strong cause-and-effect relationship between [wei wuxian's actions in the xuanwu cave] and [the fall of lotus pier]" typically mean to argue that, while there does exist a cause-and-effect relationship between these two events, it is small enough to be irrelevant. and, from what i've seen, they typically argue this point by claiming that, even prior to wei wuxian's actions in the xuanwu cave, qishan wen already had plans to attack yunmeng jiang.
however, in order for "qishan wen was going to attack yunmeng jiang anyways" to be a valid counterargument to the claim that "there exists a strong cause-and-effect relationship between [wei wuxian's actions in the xuanwu cave] and [the fall of lotus pier]," several things are necessary. these are:
qishan wen was already planning on attacking yunmeng jiang in that time frame.
qishan wen had no competing plans to attack and conquer other great sects instead in that time frame.
qishan wen had no competing plans for other war-starting activities in that time frame.
why does time frame matter?
why do i say "in that time frame"? because, in my view, a significant part of why the fall of lotus pier was able to happen as it did in canon (ie. yunmeng jiang caught quite off-guard, everyone save 3 people killed, lotus pier seized and occupied by qishan wen) is because it happened in the time frame that it did.
prior to the wen indoctrination camp, qishan wen completely exterminating a great sect and seizing the sect's headquarters for itself was unprecedented. first, qishan wen's attack on gusu lan did not result in the extermination of gusu lan. second, qishan wen's attack on gusu lan was not for the purpose of conquest: while qishan wen had attacked gusu lan, qishan wen had neither conquered the cloud recesses nor turned the cloud recesses into a wen supervisory camp (later, during the sunshot campaign, the cloud recesses is safe and far away enough from the front lines for nie mingjue to send nie huaisang there). instead, wen xu ordered the lan disciples to burn down the cloud recesses, which is certainly not something you do if you're intending on seizing infrastructure for yourself.
this is all to say that, in the time period before the fall of lotus pier, the idea that [qishan wen would directly exterminate a great sect and seize the great sect's residence for itself] was unprecedented.
this lack of precedent then informs the actions of major players in the lead up to the fall of lotus pier. most notably, jiang fengmian appears to not have realized the severity of the situation: during the fall of lotus pier, jiang fengmian is away because he had left to bargain with qishan wen for the return of wei wuxian and jiang cheng's swords, indicating that he did not realize that the time for bargaining had already passed. meanwhile, most of yunmeng jiang's other disciples, including wei wuxian and jiang cheng themselves, also do not seem to be particularly worried in the lead up to the fall of lotus pier: none of them seem especially concerned about recent events, and instead feel secure enough to be playing games and flying kites.
this widespread nonchalance indicates that no one in yunmeng jiang expected that qishan wen would directly attack them, a great sect, and seek to conquer lotus pier - not an reasonable position for all these people to hold, given that up until then, qishan wen had never gone as far as to try to conquer the residence of a great sect.
however. don't you think that not nearly as many people would have held this view had there already been precedent for qishan wen seeking to conquer the residence of another great sect? if qishan wen had already attacked, exterminated, and seized for itself the residence of another great sect, is it not simply reasonable to expect that the people of yunmeng jiang would be more concerned about the same thing happening to them, and so would have acted differently? in fact, it can be argued that the fall of lotus pier was the final catalyst for the sunshot campaign - thus, if qishan wen had massacred and conquered another great sect first, it is entirely likely that the sunshot campaign would have started with yunmeng jiang still whole.
these are all what-ifs, of course. but all of this is to establish that the timing of the fall of lotus pier very much does matter. it is, frankly speaking, unrealistic and rather childish to imagine that, had qishan wen attacked yunmeng jiang later than it did in canon, the fall of lotus pier would have gone the same way as it did in canon. any student of history will tell you that, in times of warfare and during the buildup to open warfare, the timing of events and the sequence in which events happen does in fact make a major difference, both on outcomes for specific parties and on the entire course of the war itself.
now that i have explained why, in my view, the timeframe of qishan wen attacking yunmeng jiang matters, let us get into what needs to be established in order for the claim "qishan wen was going to attack yunmeng jiang anyways" to function as a valid counterargument to the claim "there is a strong cause-and-effect relationship between [wei wuxian's actions in the xuanwu cave] and [the fall of lotus pier]."
qishan wen was already planning on attacking yunmeng jiang in that time frame.
as explained above, logically speaking, the timing of the attack on yunmeng jiang should in fact matter a lot for the outcome.
therefore, consider the following series of events:
qishan wen has plans to attack yunmeng jiang, but has no particular plans to attack so soon.
however, after wei wuxian's actions in the xuanwu cave, qishan wen bumps up their plans to attack yunmeng jiang.
in this imagined series of events, the cause-and-effect relationship between [wei wuxian's actions in the xuanwu cave] and [the fall of lotus pier] is still quite significant! because, in this imagined series of events, wei wuxian's actions caused qishan wen to attack yunmeng jiang in the specific timeframe that they did - which, as explained above, does have a notable impact on the outcome!
therefore, if you wish to argue that the cause-and-effect relationship between [wei wuxian's actions in the xuanwu cave] and [the fall of lotus pier] is not significant, then you must prove that qishan wen was certainly already planning to attack yunmeng jiang in that specific time frame PRIOR to the wen indoctrination camp.
qishan wen had no competing plans to attack other sects in that time frame.
as explained above, the timing of the attack matters in party because of the idea of precedence: in canon, prior to the fall of lotus pier, there is no precedent for qishan wen directly massacring and conquering the residence of a great sect. and, if such precedent had in fact existed prior to qishan wen's attack on yunmeng jiang, then it is reasonable to expect that yunmeng jiang would have acted differently in the leadup to the fall of lotus pier.
therefore, consider the following imagined series of events:
qishan wen has plans to attack and conquer yunmeng jiang, but it also has plans to attack and conquer qinghe nie, gusu lan (again), and/or lanling jin.
however, after wei wuxian's actions in the xuanwu cave, qishan wen decides to attack and conquer yunmeng jiang first.
in this imagined series of events, the cause-and-effect relationship between [wei wuxian's actions in the xuanwu cave] and [the fall of lotus pier] is also quite significant! because, in this imagined series of events, wei wuxian's actions caused the planned attack on and conquest of yunmeng jiang to happen first - and, as explained above, order matters!
therefore, if you wish to argue that the cause-and-effect relationship between [wei wuxian's actions in the xuanwu cave] and [the fall of lotus pier] is not significant, then you must prove that qishan wen did not have any competing plans to attack and conquer other great sects instead in the same time frame.
notably, this is a somewhat broad claim to prove. in order to prove this subclaim, you must eliminate every single possible alternate great-sect-conquering plan qishan wen could have held as a logical impossibility. that is to say, for every single "well qishan wen could have tried to conquer XYZ great sect instead" counterexample raised, you must thoroughly prove why that counterexample is actually impossible.
to provide a list of what you must prove:
you must prove that it is impossible that qishan wen might instead have decided to try to conquer qinghe nie during this time period.
you must prove that it is impossible that qishan wen might instead have decided to dedicate resources to hunting down lan xichen, and/or trying to fully conquer gusu lan, during this time period.
you must prove that it is impossible that qishan wen might instead have decided to try to conquer lanling jin during this time period (though this will be easier to prove).
qishan wen had no competing plans for other war-starting activities in that time frame.
as discussed above, part of the reason why the fall of lotus pier happened the way it did is because almost everyone in lotus pier was unprepared for a wen attack on their sect of that scale. this, obviously, is predicated on things still existing in a tenuous peace during the leadup to the fall of lotus pier; the sunshot campaign only begins in earnest after the fall of lotus pier. in fact, jiang fengmian - the sect leader - is away from lotus pier during its fall because he left to go negotiate with qishan wen for the return of wei wuxian and jiang cheng's swords - indicating that he still thought he could peacefully negotiate with qishan wen.
however, imagine that open war between qishan wen and several other sects, including great sects, had already begun. in such an atmosphere, would jiang fengmian still believe he could negotiate with qishan wen? would lotus pier still remain relatively undefended against invaders - would yunmeng jiang's disciples still be running around flying kites? i imagine not.
therefore, we can conclude that, had qishan wen engaged in other war-starting activities before attacking yunmeng jiang, then the fall of lotus pier would most likely have gone differently.
now, imagine the following series of events:
qishan wen has plans to attack yunmeng jiang, and it also has competing plans to engage in some other war-starting activity XYZ.
however, after wei wuxian's actions in the xuanwu cave, qishan wen shelves its plans to do XYZ in favor of attacking yunmeng jiang.
in this case - just as in the two imagined cases above - the cause-and-effect relationship between [wei wuxian's actions in the xuanwu cave] and [the fall of lotus pier] is - once again - significant! because, in this imagined series of events, wei wuxian's actions caused qishan wen to shelve its plans of other war-starting activities in favor of attacking yunmeng jiang - thus, the attack on yunmeng jiang became the war-starting activity.
therefore, if you wish to argue that the cause-and-effect relationship between [wei wuxian's actions in the xuanwu cave] and [the fall of lotus pier] is not significant, then you must prove that qishan wen did not have any competing plans for other war-starting activities in the same time frame.
just as for the previous section, this is also a very broad claim to prove; however, i would argue that this subclaim entails even more active defense than the previous. in order to prove this subclaim, you must eliminate every single possible alternate war-starting plan qishan wen could have held as a logical impossibility. that is to say, for every single "well qishan wen could have done XYZ war-starting action instead" counterexample raised, you must thoroughly prove why that counterexample is actually impossible.
while the limit in the previous was the number of great sects, in this case, the only limit that exists is the counterarguer's imagination. so long as the counterarguer can continue to imagine potential alternate war-starting actions that qishan wen could have undertaken instead, you must keep refuting them.
in summary
this is all to say that, in my view - in order for "qishan wen was going to attack yunmeng jiang anyways" to be a valid counterargument to the claim "there exists a strong cause-and-effect relationship between [wei wuxian's actions in the xuanwu cave] and [the fall of lotus pier]," you must prove all of the following:
qishan wen was already planning on attacking yunmeng jiang in that time frame.
qishan wen had no competing plans to attack other sects instead in that time frame.
qishan wen had no competing plans for other war-starting activities in that time frame.
now, i do not think that a version of events in which all of this is true is incompatible with canon. as you have certainly noticed, all of the above, while wordy, is ultimately speculation of what could have been - it does not seek to establish anything as absolute or certain, and instead merely seeks to argue what i believe is the most likely.
i do think, though, that if you are to try to prove all of the above, then you must cite concrete evidence from the text itself.
----
interestingly, much of the above is already discussed in the text of MDZS itself:
Deep down, Jiang Cheng knew very well that even if Wei Wuxian had not saved Lan Wangji in the Xuanwu of Slaughterâs cave at Mount Muxi, the Wens would have found a reason to come knocking sooner or later. But he couldnât help but think that had it not been for Wei Wuxian, perhaps it wouldnât have happened so soon. Perhaps there wouldâve still been time to salvage the situation. That âperhapsâ was agonizing.
in my view, people who use this passage to argue that "well the fall of lotus pier would have happened anyways, even if wei wuxian had not tried to save luo qingyang" are demanding that the "sooner or later" do a lot of heavy lifting! after all, if you want the "sooner or later" to not matter - if you want to claim the fall of lotus pier would have happened as it did in canon anyways, regardless of wei wuxian's actions - then you must provide answers to all of jiang cheng's subsequent raised questions.
you must explain either why "perhaps it wouldn't have happened so soon" is factually incorrect (eg. that the wen would have attacked in the same time frame anyways), or why "perhaps it wouldn't have happened so soon" does not matter (eg. that, if the wen had attacked later, the same outcome would have resulted regardless). you must also explain why "perhaps there wouldâve still been time to salvage the situation" is incorrect (eg. that no amount of time in the world would have allowed yunmeng jiang to avert the wen attack or even mitigate the worst of it). you must eliminate every single implication the word "perhaps" has in the paragraph above, in order for the "sooner or later" to not matter.
and the thing is. i don't think we're meant to read jiang cheng's thoughts here as completely irrational. in fact, i think what he's saying does make sense. what i instead think this passage aims to achieve is to establish that it is in fact difficult to conclude whether or not wei wuxian's actions had a major, non-dismissible hand in the fall of lotus pier. it cannot be said for certain that the fall of lotus pier would have happened exactly the way it did regardless of wei wuxian's actions. but it also cannot be said for certain that, had wei wuxian not acted the way he did in the xuanwu cave, that the fall of lotus pier would have been averted entirely. all jiang cheng, wei wuxian, and the reader know for certain is that - well - the fall of lotus pier happened.
I saw this and have literally not been able to stop thinking about an angsty "entity" JL au. anyways a splattering of thoughts below that I currently don't have the time to make into something but đ
Wherein JL gets deathly ill/is poisoned at a very young age, and desperate to not lose the last person he has left, JC makes a deal with some demonic force so that JL can live on, but changed. Different.
This leads to a JL who is sometimes the JL we know and adore! But then other times there's something so very uncanny valley about him and it's not really noticeable at first but when you do see it.... well it's hard to unsee it
JC is willing to do anything to protect this secret because he knows whenever someone finds out JL isn't exactly human anymore, JL'll be put to death for real this time. Because whatever it is that he is shouldn't exist. JC messed with horrors beyond human comprehension to make sure he does, but he shouldn't.
This also leads into why he actively works to prevent the Jiang disciples from befriending JL. Because he doesn't want to be forced to silence them if they find anything off about the child. Because if it came down to them being a potential threat to JL, JC doesn't want to be forced to decide between duty and family again (and he can't ignore the guilty feeling that he knows what he'd choose, and it wouldn't be them.)
And JC keeps excusing it too because he can't come to terms with the fact that "JL" isn't quite A-Ling anymore. that there was something he was incapable of protecting him from. That HE did this to him.
The delusional "this is fine" excusing of the weird quirks of his nephew lead to a lot of scenes like this:
JC: wakes up because he feels a sense of 'otherness' and the weight of a stare on him, only to find two glowing irises in the darkness at the foot of his bed and nearly falls off it in shock.
JC: "FUCK! A-Ling, what in the hells are you doing?"
6yo JL: "Jiujiu. Are you asleep?"
JC: "Not anymore! Gods above, did you intend to just stare me awake?"
6yo JL, sulking: "You didn't come when I called for you like you said you would. What else was I supposed to do? But Jiujiu, what's a 'nightmare'? Why don't I have them like the other kids?"
JC: "Can you pick a better time for your philosophical questions than 4 in the fucking morning? Just... fuck. Come here and lay down, alright? Save this for when your uncle can actually fucking function."
or
JL: crouching on the ground, covered in dirt and blood as he clutches the corpse of a small animal.
JC: "Come on, brat! Really? Again? I get growing boys need their protein, but this'll take forever to scrub out of your Jin robes."
Also the parallels of JC making JL into an entity to make sure he survives with the core transfer are so delicious.
in an alternate world, a different version of MDZS is published. in this version of MDZS, the endgame couple is wen ning x wei wuxian, not lan wangji x wei wuxian.
in this alternate MDZS, lan wangji is still in love with wei wuxian; wei wuxian, however, rejects him. lan wangji handles this rejection with grace.
all other plot points (eg. wei wuxian's downfall in his first life, the phoenix mtn kiss, the severed arm mystery, jin guangyao's downfall, etc) are the same.
in this alternate world, MDZS gathers the same sort of large fandom that it did in reality.
due to fans seeing him as a threat to the endgame ship, lan wangji manages to amass a large number of antis.
in this alternate world, what kind of stupid dogshit is getting posted in the #canon lan wangji tag?
"if you stan LWJ you're literally a rape apologist"
"LWJ raising LSZ without knowledge of his wen heritage is cultural genocide"
"LWJ is holding LSZ hostage for WWX's love"
"LWJ literally let WWX die in the first siege just because WWX rejected him"
"LWJ let the wen remnants die, which makes him complicit in genocide"
"LWJ selfishly only bought WWX dinner once instead of giving WWX more money"
"LWJ's jealousy and possessiveness makes him an abusive yandere"
"LWJ literally stole the pouch LQY gave WWX like some kind of freak stalker"
"LWJ is bland and has no personality. his only traits are being rich and hot"
"LWJ is a bad brother because he doesn't support LXC after JGY's death"
"ovulating LWJ meimei"
something even stupider that OP didn't think of
Voting ended onDec 26, 2025
sorry lan wangji fans. this is purely a thought experiment. no one actually believes in these things
Literally all of the above but there's not an option for that so I voted for something else and I humbly submit
"after he recognizes Wei Wuxian, Lan Wangji KIDNAPS him to bring him to his house"
or possibly
"Lan Wangji only knew "Mo Xuanyu" was Wei Wuxian because WWX played the song LWJ wrote for him, he didn't recognise WWX on sight. This means LWJ doesn't truly love WWX but rather the ideal of him that he created in his head"
or maybe
"LWJ didn't truly love WWX, he just wanted to tame him because he was wild and free and LWJ's repressed ass couldn't accept it" (*literally bullshitting my way through this one but I'm sure some idiots could actually make an argument out of it*)
more
"LWJ didn't even TRY to save Jiang Yanli even though he was at Nightless City"
"HE KICKED AND DISRESPECTED WEN NING HOW DARE HIM. OFF WITH HIS HEAD."
"If LWJ truly loved WWX he would have stayed with him while he was recovering from facing off the Xuanwu, instead of going back to the CR'
"If LWJ really cared about WWX, where was he when Lotus Pier was attacked? WN was the only one who actually put any effort to help WWX!"
and on a similar vein
"WN even put his life on the line to help the people WWX loves! He saved JC, not that that paid off well for him! Meanwhile LWJ's ass just obsessively hates the man with no discernible reason. If he really loved WWX, he'd at least understand how important JC and JYL are to him and not be such a dick to them." (somehow coming back around to a minor bit of JC defense?)
or
"A-Yuan would reject his courtesy name post-canon because he wouldn't want to be associated with a man who did nothing while his whole family was killed and treats his uncle terribly. Also naming a kid 'Yearning' is so manipulative and disgusting!!!"
or maybe
"LWJ's child-like behavior while drunk is so 'pick me' and annoying istg. He's such an attention whore."
"LWJ's silencing of JL really makes you wonder how he raised A-Yuan."
and finally
"If you support LWJ, you're supporting the capitalist system of society. He's nothing more than a spoiled brat who lives off of his brother's hard work to flaunt his money while pretending to care about the downtrodden in society. WWX and WN are the only ones who actually stood up for what was right."
