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Elder Scrolls 30 Day Challenge: Day 22
Stormcloaks or Imperials?
Yeah, because we haven’t discussed that enough already ^^
It’s still a choice between the plague or the cholera. The decision would be a tad easier if I had to choose between Tullius and Ulfric - Tullius is a cold-blooded bureaucrat, while Ulfric has at least some passion and principles for which he fights, even if they’re warped, misguided, short-sighted and mostly fed by his own lust for vengeance.
But if I'm forced to choose, I’ll take the Stormcloaks, if only because I want the Thalmor out of Skyrim. Even if I like Rikke much, much better than Galmar :)
Elder Scrolls 30 Day Challenge: Day 19
Least favourite character?
First, there are the “most hated characters”. Chars who are asshats without being the villain, opportunistic morons who see nothing but their own interest. Guys like General Tullius, who would have the power to keep the Thalmor in Skyrim on a tight leash, but chooses to let them have Northwatch Keep instead. Or Siddgeir of Falkreath, who is a lazy and corrupt jerk.
And then there are the “most annoying characters”. Top of this list makes of course the Adoring Fan, closely followed by Cicero the Lunatic (no, not even his diaries could redeem him) and Jarl Korir of Winterhold (who 80 years after the disaster that destroyed his city still whines over the mages instead to do something productive to rebuild).
@chamerionwrites
Tullius is a general of the Imperial army, which means he has no higher-ups and only reports to the king himself. The “agreement” with the Thalmor only authorises them to enforce the White-Gold Concordat, not to spread terror over the province or to keep secret torture bases. It also doesn’t look as if they have their own official jurisdiction. Everything they do happens in secret, and in Helgen, Elenwen was only a bystander.
With a whole army stationed in Skyrim, I’m pretty sure Tullius could put some pressure on Elenwen if he wanted. Only that he doesn’t.
Case in point: If the bug is fixed and you sided with the Imperials, Tullius will give you a release order for Thorald which actually gets him out of Northwatch Keep. This proves not only that he knows about it, but that he actually has the power to intervene into their machinations. It’s his choice not to do it.
Sadly, I think “spreading terror over the province and keeping secret torture bases” probably counts as enforcing the White-Gold Concordat…from a certain point of view. (Namely, the Thalmor one.) The worship of Talos is illegal after all. That’s the whole root of the problem - if the Empire doesn’t at least pay lip service to the Talos ban, they’re in violation of their treaty obligations and providing the Dominion with grounds to go to war, which is something they’ve spent twenty-five years avoiding. The fact that the justiciars exist at all - that agents of a foreign power have the right to detain Imperial citizens on Imperial soil - shows just how far the Empire is willing to go to keep the Concordat. And I’m not convinced that the justiciars operate in secrecy because they’re going around the law, so much as that they operate in secrecy because that’s how intelligence agencies operate.
Nor do I get the impression that Tullius has any authority over Elenwen and the Thalmor in Skyrim. Yes, he can probably get one man released from Northwatch Keep if he pulls enough strings, but I don’t think he has the power to shut Northwatch down. Yes, he has an army at his back - but he also bears the responsibility for starting the second Great War if he’s too aggressive, which, again, is something that the Empire is explicitly willing to go to war with the Stormcloaks in order to prevent. Yes, he reports to the Emperor, but Titus Mede let Hammerfell SECEDE rather than restart hostilities with the Dominion. The unused dialogue from Helgen is pretty illuminating in this regard: Elenwen not only claims to operate with full Imperial authority, she threatens Tullius with a bad report to the Emperor if he doesn’t comply with her demand to hand over the prisoners (to his credit, he goes the possession-is-nine-tenths-of-the-law route, and ignores her). It honestly reads like a jurisdiction fight between two law enforcement agencies, and thus I suspect that the justiciars and the Legion have two entirely separate chains of command. In fact there is probably awesome fanfic possibility in the no-doubt EPIC cold war going on behind the scenes between Legion and Thalmor intelligence, with both sides trying to get their hands on information and keep it from the other without actively breaking the terms of the treaty (or at least not getting caught). The shenanigans between Castle Dour and the neighboring Thalmor headquarters alone are probably insane.
Look, I’m not saying he’s right; there’s a reason I never, ever feel good about siding with the Empire, despite the equally serious problems with Ulfric and the Stormcloaks. Even as I understand the Imperial argument, even as the state of Windhelm makes me CRINGE, I’m a quiet but firm Stormcloak supporter - and this is why. But I don’t think the problem is with Tullius. I think the problem is with Imperial policy, and whatever else you can say about the general, he’s trying to follow it.
Actually, I agree with a lot you said, especially with the part about the cold war between the Imperials and the Thalmor. I really would have liked to witness a glaring match between T and E :)
I just think Elenwen’s power results from and is based more upon the terror she spreads over the land than on actual official authority. Unfortunately the concrete text of the Concordat is nowhere available, but I think it’s clear that the Thalmor are not an occupation force. They’re there to supervise the adherence to a treaty, and of course it’s the Imperial policy of absolute compliance that makes them so frighteningly successful.
But Tullius is not only the tool of this policy, he is the one who enforces it locally, and he does so far too enthusiastically. We don’t have many interactions or hints about the concrete relationships between him and Elenwen, but I still believe that the fact that he is able to release a prisoner from a Thalmor prison with a sheet of paper, via a representative and without consulting Elenwen beforehand shows pretty clearly that he does have authority over her. He only usually chooses not to use it.
Which is, on another note, also pretty stupid. Considering that his main purpose is the suppression of the Stormcloak rebellion and as the leader of an army, he should know the power of propaganda. By playing Elenwen’s lapdog, he only fuels the support for Ulfric. But in the end, he is probably more a bureaucrat than a diplomat.
Elenwen is an ambassador (/spy, in the true old-fashioned “EVERYBODY knows you’re using your diplomatic pouch for espionage, but opening it will still create an embarrassing international incident” sense of the word) and Tullius is a military officer. Each of them is the highest-ranking person from their respective factions in the province, but he reports to the Emperor and she reports to Alinor. There’s just no overlap in the chains of command. You’re right that we don’t have much to go on, but what we DO have leads me to believe that if one of them is in the position of greater power, it’s Elenwen:
1. The aforementioned cut dialogue when Tullius refuses to hand over the prisoners in Helgen: “Your Emperor will hear of this. By the terms of the White-Gold Concordat, I operate with full Imperial authority! You’re making a terrible mistake!” She’s actively threatening him here, not with censure from her own government but from HIS. Presumably Tullius is smart enough to realize that executing Ulfric then and there is the safest bet for ending the Stormcloak Rebellion, and also that – as you pointed out at the end of your post – handing his prisoners over to the Thalmor would be a propaganda nightmare and only enrage the province further, and he counts on his boss agreeing with him there. Still, I think it says a lot about Elenwen’s political power, and that of the Concordat, that she invokes Imperial authority.
2. Tullius’ dialogue if, as you mentioned, the bug in Diplomatic Immunity is fixed: “I can only imagine the headaches this is going to cause…here, take this. Assuming they even honor it, you should be able to get your prisoner out.” That doesn’t sound like a man who’s confident that his orders will be obeyed. It sounds like a man who’s already developing a headache anticipating the diplomatic fuss that overstepping his political boundaries is going to create.
3. Tullius’ dialogue if he shows up for Diplomatic Immunity: “I swear Elenwen holds these parties just to make the Empire look bad. Almost makes me want to join the Stormcloaks…the only reason I’m here is because my refusal to attend would cause a diplomatic incident…I need another drink…the Thalmor invited me here to remind everyone that they can tell the Empire what to do. I would refuse, but I don’t want to jeopardize the peace between us…” and, finally, “Look around the room and you’ll see what we’re up against. Just between you and me, a lot of what Ulfric says about the Empire is true.” (!!!!! Of course, he also says Elenwen would’ve made a good Legion general, so…I think he’s been hitting the Colovian brandy by that point, and who can really blame him.) At any rate, he doesn’t sound like a man who’s enthusiastic about cooperating with the Thalmor. He sounds like a man who knows perfectly well that he’s been maneuvered onto the losing side of a political power play, can’t see a way out of it, and wishes he were much, much drunker than he currently is.
No one is more surprised than I am to find myself defending Tullius here, because he’s the sort of THE-LAW-IS-THE-LAW-AND-IT-MUST-BE-OBEYED character that I find it difficult to sympathize with, especially when the law is causing such evident human suffering as it is in Skyrim. I guess my point is that however infuriating I find it, that rigid adherence to policy and order is his defining character feature: as a military man, as Ulfric’s sometime-foil, and as the straight-laced, frustrated fish-out-of-water representative of Imperial bureaucracy in a land that is anything but straight-laced and bureaucratic (which forms the basis of his character arc in the questline, such as it is – obviously he gets a lot less development than his opposite number). So I think he loses something, as a character, if we don’t acknowledge that he’s following orders. That’s his character flaw. Tullius and Ulfric are two equally stubborn ends of a pitiless spectrum: the general who permits great suffering in his inflexible dedication to order, and the rebel who sows chaos and death in his unbending pursuit of principle.
(Doesn’t mean you can’t dislike him for it, of course! Contrary to the impression I may have given here, I find Tullius an arrogant literal-minded dolt with an insufferable cultural superiority complex, and I’d like to slap him hard enough that he staggers a few steps off the Lawful square and a few steps further onto the Good square. Then we might as well have Rikke running the Legion, though, and while that would probably be better for everyone involved, it would make for a very different story.)
This is manna from fandom heaven. And it keeps getting better and better.
My two cents that nobody asked for; to return to Springinkerl’s original statement:
Tullius does have the power to stop the Thalmor. He has military power. He has at least a Legion, on site. He (because really, it’s not Elisif) has the backing of half of Skyrim. The other half would be just as glad to temporaily ally themselves with him, if only to kick the Blackskirts out of Skyrim. The Emperor is a name, hundreds of miles away. Diplomatic complications, titles, and the threat of a future retribution would not protect Elenwen’s head from a sword.
Tullius has the power.
But I don’t think that, for all the civil war around him, he even sees disobeying the Emperor as an option. He has been trained too well to follow orders. Soldiers aren’t taught to question, they’re taught to obey.
And I love how you’ve drawn the contrast between him and Ulfric, Chamerion. And of course, the fact that such power exists does not mean that it should be exercised, that it would not lead to even greater suffering, long-term.
After all, isn’t that what the Civil War is about?
This is so amazing. And doesn’t it speak for the sheer epicness of this questline that even after so many years (and after it has already been discussed to death) we still argue about the bad, the worse and the ugly? I just wish Bethesda had given the mainquest the same attention.
Back on topic: I guess we’re all not so far apart, that Tullius is a soldier first and foremost, someone who cedes the ability of autonomous thoughts and decisions with his civilian clothes. Yes, he’s following orders - and yes, it’s not merely a character trait, but his defining flaw. I’m still convinced he could be at least a really nasty splinter under Elenwen’s fingernails if he wanted.
Tullius and Ulfric are two equally stubborn ends of a pitiless spectrum: the general who permits great suffering in his inflexible dedication to order, and the rebel who sows chaos and death in his unbending pursuit of principle.
Well said, Chamerion, although I’d argue that Tullius is more dedicated to authority and orders than to order. Anyway, in their stubbornness they’re both remarkably short-sighted, and I guess it takes some serious headcanon to form a serious preference. And that’s good :)
And now off to kicking the blackskirts out of Skyrim and ending the war (nearly) without any assistance from the dragonborn ^^
It is, and it does! I find the actual mechanics of the Civil War questline repetitive, but god, the story. The characters. The tragedy. That’s why I feel strongly enough to nerd out over this, really: the story loses something if we don’t appreciate how impressively intractable Bethesda managed to make the politics.
Yeah, we’re not so far apart. I maintain that if not for the unlikely visit of a certain black dragon Tullius would have proved a nasty splinter under Elenwen’s nails by ordering Ulfric’s execution at Helgen despite her protests, and I like to imagine that the general and the ambassador (and the Legion and the Thalmor, more broadly) maintain simmering how-can-I-make-your-life-miserable-today-without-starting-Great-War-II hostilities, but the latter is just headcanon. Based on his dialogue he certainly does seem to believe (not without merit!) that ending the Civil War quickly is the best blow he can strike against the Thalmor, and that’s what he’s trying to do. He could do a hell of a lot better job attempting to empathize with the Nords, and probably a better job of applying a bit of creative license to his mandate to make nice with the Thalmor, but I guess my problem - and this might be where my personal bias kicks in - is that I’m not sure how he could deviate too much from his actions in game without being…well, a Stormcloak. (You may well see it more clearly than I do - if so, please enlighten me!)
@bluraaven - Much as I approve that course of action, killing a nation’s diplomats is traditionally a bridge-burning declaration of war. Which the Empire doesn’t want. All of Tullius’ military power is, if not precisely an EMPTY threat, certainly an easy one to brush aside for any ambassador with sufficient ballsiness and political savvy.
Now, you can argue that there is precisely zero good-faith diplomacy coming from the Thalmor – and you’d be right. You can argue that the Empire is working against its own interests by allowing the Dominion to stomp all over its sovereignty and citizens with hobnailed secret-police torture boots, and I certainly think you’d be right. But that’s the problem. The Empire is the large-scale equivalent of a dude in an armlock who, for (very legitimate, it must be allowed) fear of getting his arm BROKEN, decides not to fight back even as the antagonist twists his arm farther. And farther. And FARTHER. Greatly simplified, the entire Civil War boils down to the Stormcloaks shouting “JUST BREAK YOUR ARM BEFORE THEY TWIST IT ANY MORE,” and the Empire saying, “I’d rather not, thanks – and if I have to, I’ll wait until I know I can get a sucker-punch in afterwards.” Could Tullius ally with the Stormcloaks to kick the Thalmor out of Skyrim? Absolutely. He has more than enough military strength to do it. But if he did so he would no longer be a general. If the Empire allowed him to, then it would be a different Empire. And there would be no Skyrim Civil War, because the Empire would be engaged in GW II and the Stormcloaks would be eagerly lining up to fight on their side.
(Also, just to be perfectly fair, it should be noted that we’re looking at this from a very Skyrim-centric point of view. From that perspective, there’s little but immediately positive consequences to telling the Dominion to shove it and kicking the justiciars out of Skyrim. But for Cyrodiil the stakes are much higher, and the consequences are strikingly negative. If you think Skyrim’s got it bad in-game, read The Great War, take a look at a map, and imagine the better half of Cyrodiil – including what is basically Tamriel’s breadbasket – under control of Dominion armies that are not even half-heartedly PRETENDING to a cessation of hostilities. The immense civilian suffering that must have taken place during the Great War gets reduced to a throwaway mention of the “infamous” sack of the Imperial City in that book, but if you read between the lines and consider what the Thalmor get up to in peacetime that shit gets really horrifying, REALLY fast. I’m nominally a Stormcloak supporter, and even I can’t blame the Empire’s heartland for being collectively traumatized and gun-shy at the prospect of war with the Dominion.)
And thus the AU was born in which Tullius blows a fuse, joins the Stormcloaks and teaches them how to make fish sauce. I’m notevensorry.
The funniest part is that Tullius is absolutely right in the asumption that ending t he CW would deal the Thalmor a blow, and throw into disarray their plans. I wonder how m uch he knows, and how much is speculation. (Imperial records about Ulfric anywhere, maybe?)
It’s an empty threat only in the way a horse tied to a 2-pound plastic chair is securely tied. Titles have no power other than the one we allocate to them. Now obviously, Tullius doesn’t want to disobey his Emperor, he does respect Elenwen’s status as ambassador, he doesn’t want another war, he truly does believe that htis is the best way for now - but that all is subjective, not objective, and therefore, not absolute. People can change their minds. And even people like Tullius might have a breaking point, something that would drive them away from everything they formerly stood for. Betrayal. Threat to one’s family.
All I meant to say is that if Tullius had a change of heart, went rogue and decided he’s really had enough, he does have all the power. That’s how coups happen. Some people have a name, title, lands, rights, and someone else goes: I simply don’t give a damn, those don’t mean anything to me anymore - I got swords and men under my command to wield them.
Now you an argue that if he did/believed all those things he wouldn’t really be Tullius - well, certainly he wouldn’t be the in-game Tullius. But there has to be more to him, just as every character has had a lifetime of history.
And, as Kriladoodles said, what would the Emperor’s death change? Who will make use of the power vacuum? And what politics will s/he follow?
I also wonder if that armlock isn’t just an illusion - or at least whether it wasn’t at the time the WGC was signed. Mede must have been blind, bribed and nursing a concussion when he signed it on behalf of the entire Empire, not just Cyrodiil. Maybe the Thalmor wouldn’t take any less - but knowing what happened in Hammerfell, they weren’t in a position to make demands in first place. I like to think that the negotiations were threats and coercion, that basically thought about Skyrim and Hammerfell. Maybe he didn’t think it was possible to win, at the time. My hc is that it absolutely would have been - argumentum a minri ad maius - if a single country can fight off an invading force, then three countries allied together can do so all the more.
But all that is moot now, because years have passed, and both sides have recovered/are recovering. And still there’s no fish sauce in sight.
I think that’s something that gets forgotten all too often - it’s been nearly 30 years since the end of the war, 25 since Hammerfell kicked the Thalmor out (albeit, admittedly, at a terrible cost - but they’re free).
Mede signed the WGC to give the Empire / the Legions time to recover after they annihilated the Thalmor and won the war. How long will this recovery take? 30 years, for humans that’s nearly 2 generations fit for action. Lots of meat to throw to the frontline, in all 3 provinces in question. In comparison, how long will the recovery from the annihilation in the Battle of the Red Ring take for the elves?
I can really understand that the Stormcloaks get impatient. I mean, what do the Thalmor actually have? Magic - they’re not the only ones. High Rock sent reinforcements to Hammerfell during the invasion, after all. Their sense of superiority - yeah, didn’t help them much in the end, this hubris. And their superior ruthlessness and cruelty, and that’s perhaps a psychological factor that’s hardest to overcome. I guess if someone comes to you - even if it’s just a delegation of a few people - with an ultimatum and a list of demands as staggering as ridiculous and then reinforces these claims with a gift of a few hundred of severed heads - well, I guess that leaves an impression.
But they were able to draw out the GW for so long and cause so much devastation only because a) the Empire was weak and quarrelling among themselves, b) the Empire was taken by surprise and unprepared and c) the Empire had to fight on half a dozen fronts at once. And still the Empire won, in the end.
If the Empire could eliminate these factors, if the three provinces (+ High Rock, they helped before, perhaps they’ll help again if one asks nicely) would join their forces and pull together - yeah, I don’t see why this second GW shouldn’t be much shorter than the first.
Of course it’d need a strong leader for such an endeavour. A leader that Mede is not - and neither are his generals, at least those we know. So I don’t think the Thalmor are the only faction with an interest to get rid of him.
Elder Scrolls 30 Day Challenge: Day 21
Ebonheart Pact, Aldmeri Dominion or Daggerfall Covenant?
Never played ESO, sorry. But I guess if I did, I’d start out with the Ebonheart Pact because Dunmer and Nords (and secretly hope I’d find my Nordic sniper someone like Athis). No idea if I’d regret it, though.
Elder Scrolls 30 Day Challenge: Day 19
Least favourite character?
First, there are the “most hated characters”. Chars who are asshats without being the villain, opportunistic morons who see nothing but their own interest. Guys like General Tullius, who would have the power to keep the Thalmor in Skyrim on a tight leash, but chooses to let them have Northwatch Keep instead. Or Siddgeir of Falkreath, who is a lazy and corrupt jerk.
And then there are the “most annoying characters”. Top of this list makes of course the Adoring Fan, closely followed by Cicero the Lunatic (no, not even his diaries could redeem him) and Jarl Korir of Winterhold (who 80 years after the disaster that destroyed his city still whines over the mages instead to do something productive to rebuild).
@chamerionwrites
Tullius is a general of the Imperial army, which means he has no higher-ups and only reports to the king himself. The “agreement” with the Thalmor only authorises them to enforce the White-Gold Concordat, not to spread terror over the province or to keep secret torture bases. It also doesn’t look as if they have their own official jurisdiction. Everything they do happens in secret, and in Helgen, Elenwen was only a bystander.
With a whole army stationed in Skyrim, I’m pretty sure Tullius could put some pressure on Elenwen if he wanted. Only that he doesn’t.
Case in point: If the bug is fixed and you sided with the Imperials, Tullius will give you a release order for Thorald which actually gets him out of Northwatch Keep. This proves not only that he knows about it, but that he actually has the power to intervene into their machinations. It’s his choice not to do it.
Sadly, I think “spreading terror over the province and keeping secret torture bases” probably counts as enforcing the White-Gold Concordat…from a certain point of view. (Namely, the Thalmor one.) The worship of Talos is illegal after all. That’s the whole root of the problem - if the Empire doesn’t at least pay lip service to the Talos ban, they’re in violation of their treaty obligations and providing the Dominion with grounds to go to war, which is something they’ve spent twenty-five years avoiding. The fact that the justiciars exist at all - that agents of a foreign power have the right to detain Imperial citizens on Imperial soil - shows just how far the Empire is willing to go to keep the Concordat. And I’m not convinced that the justiciars operate in secrecy because they’re going around the law, so much as that they operate in secrecy because that’s how intelligence agencies operate.
Nor do I get the impression that Tullius has any authority over Elenwen and the Thalmor in Skyrim. Yes, he can probably get one man released from Northwatch Keep if he pulls enough strings, but I don’t think he has the power to shut Northwatch down. Yes, he has an army at his back - but he also bears the responsibility for starting the second Great War if he’s too aggressive, which, again, is something that the Empire is explicitly willing to go to war with the Stormcloaks in order to prevent. Yes, he reports to the Emperor, but Titus Mede let Hammerfell SECEDE rather than restart hostilities with the Dominion. The unused dialogue from Helgen is pretty illuminating in this regard: Elenwen not only claims to operate with full Imperial authority, she threatens Tullius with a bad report to the Emperor if he doesn’t comply with her demand to hand over the prisoners (to his credit, he goes the possession-is-nine-tenths-of-the-law route, and ignores her). It honestly reads like a jurisdiction fight between two law enforcement agencies, and thus I suspect that the justiciars and the Legion have two entirely separate chains of command. In fact there is probably awesome fanfic possibility in the no-doubt EPIC cold war going on behind the scenes between Legion and Thalmor intelligence, with both sides trying to get their hands on information and keep it from the other without actively breaking the terms of the treaty (or at least not getting caught). The shenanigans between Castle Dour and the neighboring Thalmor headquarters alone are probably insane.
Look, I’m not saying he’s right; there’s a reason I never, ever feel good about siding with the Empire, despite the equally serious problems with Ulfric and the Stormcloaks. Even as I understand the Imperial argument, even as the state of Windhelm makes me CRINGE, I’m a quiet but firm Stormcloak supporter - and this is why. But I don’t think the problem is with Tullius. I think the problem is with Imperial policy, and whatever else you can say about the general, he’s trying to follow it.
Actually, I agree with a lot you said, especially with the part about the cold war between the Imperials and the Thalmor. I really would have liked to witness a glaring match between T and E :)
I just think Elenwen’s power results from and is based more upon the terror she spreads over the land than on actual official authority. Unfortunately the concrete text of the Concordat is nowhere available, but I think it’s clear that the Thalmor are not an occupation force. They’re there to supervise the adherence to a treaty, and of course it’s the Imperial policy of absolute compliance that makes them so frighteningly successful.
But Tullius is not only the tool of this policy, he is the one who enforces it locally, and he does so far too enthusiastically. We don’t have many interactions or hints about the concrete relationships between him and Elenwen, but I still believe that the fact that he is able to release a prisoner from a Thalmor prison with a sheet of paper, via a representative and without consulting Elenwen beforehand shows pretty clearly that he does have authority over her. He only usually chooses not to use it.
Which is, on another note, also pretty stupid. Considering that his main purpose is the suppression of the Stormcloak rebellion and as the leader of an army, he should know the power of propaganda. By playing Elenwen’s lapdog, he only fuels the support for Ulfric. But in the end, he is probably more a bureaucrat than a diplomat.
Elenwen is an ambassador (/spy, in the true old-fashioned “EVERYBODY knows you’re using your diplomatic pouch for espionage, but opening it will still create an embarrassing international incident” sense of the word) and Tullius is a military officer. Each of them is the highest-ranking person from their respective factions in the province, but he reports to the Emperor and she reports to Alinor. There’s just no overlap in the chains of command. You’re right that we don’t have much to go on, but what we DO have leads me to believe that if one of them is in the position of greater power, it’s Elenwen:
1. The aforementioned cut dialogue when Tullius refuses to hand over the prisoners in Helgen: “Your Emperor will hear of this. By the terms of the White-Gold Concordat, I operate with full Imperial authority! You’re making a terrible mistake!” She’s actively threatening him here, not with censure from her own government but from HIS. Presumably Tullius is smart enough to realize that executing Ulfric then and there is the safest bet for ending the Stormcloak Rebellion, and also that – as you pointed out at the end of your post – handing his prisoners over to the Thalmor would be a propaganda nightmare and only enrage the province further, and he counts on his boss agreeing with him there. Still, I think it says a lot about Elenwen’s political power, and that of the Concordat, that she invokes Imperial authority.
2. Tullius’ dialogue if, as you mentioned, the bug in Diplomatic Immunity is fixed: “I can only imagine the headaches this is going to cause…here, take this. Assuming they even honor it, you should be able to get your prisoner out.” That doesn’t sound like a man who’s confident that his orders will be obeyed. It sounds like a man who’s already developing a headache anticipating the diplomatic fuss that overstepping his political boundaries is going to create.
3. Tullius’ dialogue if he shows up for Diplomatic Immunity: “I swear Elenwen holds these parties just to make the Empire look bad. Almost makes me want to join the Stormcloaks…the only reason I’m here is because my refusal to attend would cause a diplomatic incident…I need another drink…the Thalmor invited me here to remind everyone that they can tell the Empire what to do. I would refuse, but I don’t want to jeopardize the peace between us…” and, finally, “Look around the room and you’ll see what we’re up against. Just between you and me, a lot of what Ulfric says about the Empire is true.” (!!!!! Of course, he also says Elenwen would’ve made a good Legion general, so…I think he’s been hitting the Colovian brandy by that point, and who can really blame him.) At any rate, he doesn’t sound like a man who’s enthusiastic about cooperating with the Thalmor. He sounds like a man who knows perfectly well that he’s been maneuvered onto the losing side of a political power play, can’t see a way out of it, and wishes he were much, much drunker than he currently is.
No one is more surprised than I am to find myself defending Tullius here, because he’s the sort of THE-LAW-IS-THE-LAW-AND-IT-MUST-BE-OBEYED character that I find it difficult to sympathize with, especially when the law is causing such evident human suffering as it is in Skyrim. I guess my point is that however infuriating I find it, that rigid adherence to policy and order is his defining character feature: as a military man, as Ulfric’s sometime-foil, and as the straight-laced, frustrated fish-out-of-water representative of Imperial bureaucracy in a land that is anything but straight-laced and bureaucratic (which forms the basis of his character arc in the questline, such as it is – obviously he gets a lot less development than his opposite number). So I think he loses something, as a character, if we don’t acknowledge that he’s following orders. That’s his character flaw. Tullius and Ulfric are two equally stubborn ends of a pitiless spectrum: the general who permits great suffering in his inflexible dedication to order, and the rebel who sows chaos and death in his unbending pursuit of principle.
(Doesn’t mean you can’t dislike him for it, of course! Contrary to the impression I may have given here, I find Tullius an arrogant literal-minded dolt with an insufferable cultural superiority complex, and I’d like to slap him hard enough that he staggers a few steps off the Lawful square and a few steps further onto the Good square. Then we might as well have Rikke running the Legion, though, and while that would probably be better for everyone involved, it would make for a very different story.)
This is manna from fandom heaven. And it keeps getting better and better.
My two cents that nobody asked for; to return to Springinkerl’s original statement:
Tullius does have the power to stop the Thalmor. He has military power. He has at least a Legion, on site. He (because really, it’s not Elisif) has the backing of half of Skyrim. The other half would be just as glad to temporaily ally themselves with him, if only to kick the Blackskirts out of Skyrim. The Emperor is a name, hundreds of miles away. Diplomatic complications, titles, and the threat of a future retribution would not protect Elenwen’s head from a sword.
Tullius has the power.
But I don’t think that, for all the civil war around him, he even sees disobeying the Emperor as an option. He has been trained too well to follow orders. Soldiers aren’t taught to question, they’re taught to obey.
And I love how you’ve drawn the contrast between him and Ulfric, Chamerion. And of course, the fact that such power exists does not mean that it should be exercised, that it would not lead to even greater suffering, long-term.
After all, isn’t that what the Civil War is about?
This is so amazing. And doesn’t it speak for the sheer epicness of this questline that even after so many years (and after it has already been discussed to death) we still argue about the bad, the worse and the ugly? I just wish Bethesda had given the mainquest the same attention.
Back on topic: I guess we’re all not so far apart, that Tullius is a soldier first and foremost, someone who cedes the ability of autonomous thoughts and decisions with his civilian clothes. Yes, he’s following orders - and yes, it's not merely a character trait, but his defining flaw. I'm still convinced he could be at least a really nasty splinter under Elenwen's fingernails if he wanted.
Tullius and Ulfric are two equally stubborn ends of a pitiless spectrum: the general who permits great suffering in his inflexible dedication to order, and the rebel who sows chaos and death in his unbending pursuit of principle.
Well said, Chamerion, although I'd argue that Tullius is more dedicated to authority and orders than to order. Anyway, in their stubbornness they're both remarkably short-sighted, and I guess it takes some serious headcanon to form a serious preference. And that's good :)
And now off to kicking the blackskirts out of Skyrim and ending the war (nearly) without any assistance from the dragonborn ^^
Elder Scrolls 30 Day Challenge: Day 20
Favourite DLC?
Shivering Isles. While Sheogorath’s quests in Morrowind and Skyrim are just generic quests, this DLC makes him into a real character with all the weirdness that’s appropriate. The Isles with their separation into Mania and Dementia are amazing, and if one were blasphemous, one could say that in the end, the Champion of Cyrodiil rises up to one level with Talos when they become a deity.
Elder Scrolls 30 Day Challenge: Day 19
Least favourite character?
First, there are the “most hated characters”. Chars who are asshats without being the villain, opportunistic morons who see nothing but their own interest. Guys like General Tullius, who would have the power to keep the Thalmor in Skyrim on a tight leash, but chooses to let them have Northwatch Keep instead. Or Siddgeir of Falkreath, who is a lazy and corrupt jerk.
And then there are the “most annoying characters”. Top of this list makes of course the Adoring Fan, closely followed by Cicero the Lunatic (no, not even his diaries could redeem him) and Jarl Korir of Winterhold (who 80 years after the disaster that destroyed his city still whines over the mages instead to do something productive to rebuild).
@chamerionwrites
Tullius is a general of the Imperial army, which means he has no higher-ups and only reports to the king himself. The “agreement” with the Thalmor only authorises them to enforce the White-Gold Concordat, not to spread terror over the province or to keep secret torture bases. It also doesn’t look as if they have their own official jurisdiction. Everything they do happens in secret, and in Helgen, Elenwen was only a bystander.
With a whole army stationed in Skyrim, I’m pretty sure Tullius could put some pressure on Elenwen if he wanted. Only that he doesn’t.
Case in point: If the bug is fixed and you sided with the Imperials, Tullius will give you a release order for Thorald which actually gets him out of Northwatch Keep. This proves not only that he knows about it, but that he actually has the power to intervene into their machinations. It’s his choice not to do it.
Sadly, I think “spreading terror over the province and keeping secret torture bases” probably counts as enforcing the White-Gold Concordat…from a certain point of view. (Namely, the Thalmor one.) The worship of Talos is illegal after all. That’s the whole root of the problem - if the Empire doesn’t at least pay lip service to the Talos ban, they’re in violation of their treaty obligations and providing the Dominion with grounds to go to war, which is something they’ve spent twenty-five years avoiding. The fact that the justiciars exist at all - that agents of a foreign power have the right to detain Imperial citizens on Imperial soil - shows just how far the Empire is willing to go to keep the Concordat. And I’m not convinced that the justiciars operate in secrecy because they’re going around the law, so much as that they operate in secrecy because that’s how intelligence agencies operate.
Nor do I get the impression that Tullius has any authority over Elenwen and the Thalmor in Skyrim. Yes, he can probably get one man released from Northwatch Keep if he pulls enough strings, but I don’t think he has the power to shut Northwatch down. Yes, he has an army at his back - but he also bears the responsibility for starting the second Great War if he’s too aggressive, which, again, is something that the Empire is explicitly willing to go to war with the Stormcloaks in order to prevent. Yes, he reports to the Emperor, but Titus Mede let Hammerfell SECEDE rather than restart hostilities with the Dominion. The unused dialogue from Helgen is pretty illuminating in this regard: Elenwen not only claims to operate with full Imperial authority, she threatens Tullius with a bad report to the Emperor if he doesn’t comply with her demand to hand over the prisoners (to his credit, he goes the possession-is-nine-tenths-of-the-law route, and ignores her). It honestly reads like a jurisdiction fight between two law enforcement agencies, and thus I suspect that the justiciars and the Legion have two entirely separate chains of command. In fact there is probably awesome fanfic possibility in the no-doubt EPIC cold war going on behind the scenes between Legion and Thalmor intelligence, with both sides trying to get their hands on information and keep it from the other without actively breaking the terms of the treaty (or at least not getting caught). The shenanigans between Castle Dour and the neighboring Thalmor headquarters alone are probably insane.
Look, I’m not saying he’s right; there’s a reason I never, ever feel good about siding with the Empire, despite the equally serious problems with Ulfric and the Stormcloaks. Even as I understand the Imperial argument, even as the state of Windhelm makes me CRINGE, I’m a quiet but firm Stormcloak supporter - and this is why. But I don’t think the problem is with Tullius. I think the problem is with Imperial policy, and whatever else you can say about the general, he’s trying to follow it.
Actually, I agree with a lot you said, especially with the part about the cold war between the Imperials and the Thalmor. I really would have liked to witness a glaring match between T and E :)
I just think Elenwen’s power results from and is based more upon the terror she spreads over the land than on actual official authority. Unfortunately the concrete text of the Concordat is nowhere available, but I think it’s clear that the Thalmor are not an occupation force. They’re there to supervise the adherence to a treaty, and of course it’s the Imperial policy of absolute compliance that makes them so frighteningly successful.
But Tullius is not only the tool of this policy, he is the one who enforces it locally, and he does so far too enthusiastically. We don’t have many interactions or hints about the concrete relationships between him and Elenwen, but I still believe that the fact that he is able to release a prisoner from a Thalmor prison with a sheet of paper, via a representative and without consulting Elenwen beforehand shows pretty clearly that he does have authority over her. He only usually chooses not to use it.
Which is, on another note, also pretty stupid. Considering that his main purpose is the suppression of the Stormcloak rebellion and as the leader of an army, he should know the power of propaganda. By playing Elenwen’s lapdog, he only fuels the support for Ulfric. But in the end, he is probably more a bureaucrat than a diplomat.
Elder Scrolls 30 Day Challenge: Day 19
Least favourite character?
First, there are the “most hated characters”. Chars who are asshats without being the villain, opportunistic morons who see nothing but their own interest. Guys like General Tullius, who would have the power to keep the Thalmor in Skyrim on a tight leash, but chooses to let them have Northwatch Keep instead. Or Siddgeir of Falkreath, who is a lazy and corrupt jerk.
And then there are the “most annoying characters”. Top of this list makes of course the Adoring Fan, closely followed by Cicero the Lunatic (no, not even his diaries could redeem him) and Jarl Korir of Winterhold (who 80 years after the disaster that destroyed his city still whines over the mages instead to do something productive to rebuild).
@chamerionwrites
Tullius is a general of the Imperial army, which means he has no higher-ups and only reports to the king himself. The "agreement" with the Thalmor only authorises them to enforce the White-Gold Concordat, not to spread terror over the province or to keep secret torture bases. It also doesn’t look as if they have their own official jurisdiction. Everything they do happens in secret, and in Helgen, Elenwen was only a bystander.
With a whole army stationed in Skyrim, I’m pretty sure Tullius could put some pressure on Elenwen if he wanted. Only that he doesn’t.
Case in point: If the bug is fixed and you sided with the Imperials, Tullius will give you a release order for Thorald which actually gets him out of Northwatch Keep. This proves not only that he knows about it, but that he actually has the power to intervene into their machinations. It’s his choice not to do it.
Elder Scrolls 30 Day Challenge: Day 19
Least favourite character?
First, there are the “most hated characters”. Chars who are asshats without being the villain, opportunistic morons who see nothing but their own interest. Guys like General Tullius, who would have the power to keep the Thalmor in Skyrim on a tight leash, but chooses to let them have Northwatch Keep instead. Or Siddgeir of Falkreath, who is a lazy and corrupt jerk.
And then there are the “most annoying characters”. Top of this list makes of course the Adoring Fan, closely followed by Cicero the Lunatic (no, not even his diaries could redeem him) and Jarl Korir of Winterhold (who 80 years after the disaster that destroyed his city still whines over the mages instead to do something productive to rebuild).
We’re looking at you.
Elder Scrolls 30 Day Challenge: Day 18
Favourite Questline?
Morrowind Mainquest. Great story, great enemies, a unique antagonist, and in the end we’re a hero who has through hard work has overcome evil and become a favourite of the divines, a leader of the people - just to learn afterwards that their actions may have temporarily saved a tiny part of the world, but that the aftermath of these actions has led to even greater devastation.
Fragile Crocheted Leaf Sculptures by Susanna Bauer
Elder Scrolls 30 Day Challenge: Day 17
Favourite weapon?
The Wabbajack in its Skyrim version. The Oblivion version is fun too, though. As a weapon to do serious damage, I really like Auriel’s bow.
Elder Scrolls 30 Day Challenge: Day 16
Favourite quest?
Morrowind: The Path of the Incarnate (Main Quest) You get introduced into the secrets of the Ashlanders, gain their leaders’ trust and in the end get to meet Azura. It’s a good time to become Nerevarine.
Oblivion: Infiltration (Fighters Guild) You never knew that killing some goblins could break your heart.
Skyrim: The Forsworn Conspiracy / No one escapes Cidhna Mine It’s so refreshing different from the usual dungeon crawls. A bit of whodunit, a bit of rightful justice and a bit of fighting for your life - and in the end, you gain some very questionable allies, no matter which way you choose.
Elder Scrolls 30 Day Challenge: Day 15
One handed, two handed or bow?
All of it, depending on the character, their background story and headcanon. Sometimes even all at once. I also like combinations that don’t really fit together, like unarmoured and twohanded weapons - those that make the game extremely challenging in the first levels (on higher levels, every char becomes a jack of all trades and master of everything anyway).
The first fighting style I try out in a new game is usually a sniper, though.
Elder scrolls evolution