Realized I needed to record broad points from DD's podcast episodes (for future projects.)
For those who skipped the podcast or only listened in chunks, perhaps this could be a good resource.
Part I: Ben Stiller, Bette Midler, Gabor Maté.
May 7, 2024 | Ben Stiller
FOREWARD
-DD warns he’s bad with technology (“so bad”), spent the last ten minutes messing up
-Reasons for the podcast, wants to explore the pushing back-pushing forward nature of failure, wants a little bit of failure to fall away.
-House of D one of his most painful professional failures. Sent deeply inside himself to a childhood sense of shame. Woke next day, felt fantastic. Realized he’d always been afraid of an 'F', but survived it.
-So happy all these years later to have gotten that 'F'.
PODCAST
-Very first interview he’s ever conducted. Ben Stiller excited for him; DD admits he feels a bit nauseous with new venture, Ben understands.
-Duo discuss how they “came to do” Zoolander (Ben sent script to Tea Leoni, DD wanted to do it. Was offered the brother or hand model role.)
-First acting opportunities, embarrassments.
-Young people have (and need) an overabundance of confidence. (DD looks back at early X-Files and cringes.) Replace that with personal creative expression as they age.
-Ben Stiller's childhood, acting parents. DD volunteers info about fragile mother, made her laugh; freedom in acting.
-Every bad thing that has happened (rejection) has opened opportunities to do something else.
-Childhood in the 70s, mind control seminars, EST craze.
-Both reflect on their own parenthood struggles. (Amram Duchovny once said, “I’m giving you one of the greatest things a father can ever give a child: I’m not very successful.” Meaning, DD thinks: “humility of that joins us together.”)
-Ben talks about it over now with his kids, DD doesn't.
PREMIUM
Transcript bits here~
May 7, 2024 | Bette Midler
FOREWARD
-DD talks about meeting Aquarius costar for lunch, sharp dresser, picky eater. Always remembered Californication’s lines for following day over tuna burger. Duo saw Bette Midler there.
-Doesn’t like going up to celebrities, plane experience with Ringo, jumped out of cab to say hi to Mohammad Ali.
-Wanted to thank her for experience back when he catered (job.) She “couldn’t be nicer.”
-Bleeds story into introducing the podcast.
-Relates technological failures on both ends for fifteen minutes.
PODCAST
-Bette Midler, DD bond over agitation, frustration with technology. Jokes about it ruining their creativity, “ruined my life.”
-DD was Bartender at Radio City Music Hall in 1983. Saw her, others’ acts. Had “never seen a performer go from sentiment to irony, and somehow do both at the same time,” gets emotional talking about it. Never forgot it.
-Bette Midler said born with a lot of confidence, didn’t have anyone squash it in a public way. If father put her down, it made her angrier, more determined to “show him.” Worshiped dad, but he wasn’t a "praiser." Mom didn’t have time, “barely keeping it together.” Grew up seeing the greats. Finally “got” them, realized what they were doing was what she was doing.
-Bette Midler discusses early career, walked away from theater when her pay wasn't raised, found next level performing "God Bless the Child."
-Jinxed and Miss Bette were hard lessons, biggest regrets. Hired wrong people, underestimate hierarchies. She was the boss but wasn’t the boss, didn’t realize she wasn’t the boss. Lesson: do your homework, “find out who you’re dealing with.”
-Both understand the demanding pace of television.
-Bette Milder Praises Taylor Swift for changing the game.
-Discuss how to quite the "Thinker" in your head. Bette Midler: “Every day is different, and every set of challenges brings a different response. The thing to do is not to beat yourself up.” (DD: “Oh, but I’m really good at that!”) Bette Midler: “You’re good at that? Everyone in the whole world is good at that. And it’s good sometime to separate-- I’m learning this now-- it’s good to separate the Thinker [self] from yourself.”
-DD brings up that enthusiasm means “to have God in you.” Bette Midler excited to learn that. Both laugh over him not knowing Greek.
-DD wants to think that it’s possible to be an enthusiastic, pessimistic person.
-Bette Midler says everything, the worst and greatest, will fade with time. “That’s just the way of the world.”
PREMIUM
Transcript bits here~
May 14, 2024 | Gabor Maté
FOREWARD
-DD mentions writing Bucky Dent, loving the losers. Podcast same: failure teaches you to be a better human “winning, winning, winning.”
-Emotional disruption between father and child.
-The Myth of Normal got him thinking. Sent Bucky Dent movie copy to Gabor Maté (felt “icky” sending his own work.) “He liked it so much that I’m going to take him on the press tour with me.”
-Gabor advocates “we’re sick because society’s sick”: “our mental health, our physical health, our addictions are all linked to the pressures of modern living.”
-”Struck by” the discussions of early childhood breaks in attachment, traumas caused between “0 and 3” years old.
-How to deal with pre-verbal injuries in a verbal way.
PODCAST
-Introductions
-Gabor and his wife watched Bucky Dent, loved it. Reveals he and his son are writing a book that mirrors the movie’s themes. DD says it was a "thinly-veiled account of my spiritual landscape at the time."
-DD and Gabor Maté discuss parental detachment. Maté assures there should be no shame because detachment was self-protective, not conscious.
-The second point, per Gabor Maté: “When in your life did you not feel guilty?” Never. “In other words, the guilt long preceded the birth of your daughter. So, the guilt has nothing to do with your daughter-- it was there long before. It was naturally triggered by our parenting, but it doesn’t belong there.”
-The third point, per Gabor Maté: “The last thing our children need from us-- and trust me, I get this all the time from my kids all the time-- is a guilty parent. They don’t want to be seen through the eyes of our guilt. Nobody wants to be seen as somebody else’s mistake.”
-On parental guilt: “For all the years that I carried this guilt… I was only seeing myself. I wasn’t seeing them at all. I wasn’t seeing their creativity, their wonder, their capacities, their resilience. I was just seeing what I had done wrong. That guilt is very narcissistic.”
-Trauma is a wound that can be healed, not an act that is irreparable.
-Both discuss addiction. Addicts lie, cheat, and steal for drugs but are honest about that motive.
-Addiction is the wrong cure for pain, "what is right about it?" Unaddressed long-term pain can become trauma. One doesn't have to go back to the past to heal trauma in the present.
-Society perpetuates addiction, minimizes all its forms. Gabor Maté's (shopping) and DD's addictions (workaholism and sex) were laughed at.
-Gabor Maté notes some probably envied DD's addiction; DD revealed he most wanted to correct false narratives about his addiction.
-DD's sex addiction gave him a sense of freedom from a mother who modeled him as proof she could do it without her absent ex-husband. Sex was the one space away from that dependence.
-Gabor Maté: “That’s my whole point of addiction. These are not just diseases that you acquire inherent-- they’re an attempt to solve a problem. The states of non-independence, the state of not being wanting, not validated: these are states of emotional pain. Not ‘why the addiction,’ but ‘why the pain?”
-Both discuss Gabor Maté's books, writing the latest one with his son. Brought up, worked on old wounds between them.
-DD thanks Gabor Maté: “I came to this through reading your book. So, I wanted to thank you for kind of opening up that part of myself that kind of led me to a direction that I’m still walking, in many ways.”
-The challenging, maturing dynamics of parent-child relationships.
-Modern culture kills relationships, stunts growth. Children are less susceptible to phones, disconnection if foundation with parents is established first.
-Gabor Maté sees healing everyday, despite darkness in the world.
-DD thanks Gabor Maté, hopes he can model the others’ words and return the favor. Maté catches him, asks him why he feels need to return the favor. (DD: “I almost got away!”) The former admits feeling vulnerable. Both agree the better option is to pay their experience forward.
Part II: Brad Gilbert, Sarah Silverman, Stephen Dubner.
May 21, 2024 | Brad Gilbert
FOREWARD
-DD talks about Coach Burns (learned his first name was Larry later) teaching him how to care. He, students all cried together over losing a high school game; it mattered.
-It was good to cry like that, “bleed from the heart," for something that “didn’t matter” to others. Because they cared.
PODCAST
-DD introduces Brad Gilbert.
-Brad Gilbert talks about his childhood, how he was introduced to tennis. Hyper-competitive, bonding with dad. Always thinking of tactics on how to win, not fixated on losing even when not successful. Loves competing.
-Explains the “jump” after hitting a ball off a wall (The Wall): imaginary player, helped train away nerves.
-Never thought about or worried about results, people dynamics: only focused on playing the game.
-Turned the competitive corner by taking more risks, working on skill level.
-”Losing doesn’t define you. It’s learning about how to deal with each situation and move forward.” Resilience.
-Coaches take losses harder than players.
-Forgo being the best player out there, choose to be the best player on your side of the net.
-Only need to be 50% at your physical skillset and 90% at your mental skillset (i.e. be better than the guy on the other side) and you’ll win.
-DD relates an anecdote his father once told him: "It reminds me of a story my dad used to tell me when we would have a catch, when I was three or four; and I’d drop one, and I’d explode in anger and frustration. And he’d say, ‘Pick it up. Throw it back to me, I’ll throw you another one. You’ll get the next one.’ And I’d, crying, I’d say, ‘I don’t want the next one, I want that one!’, the one that I dropped.”
-Amram told his adult son: “I don’t know where that came from. That was not something that I tried to impart to you, to be perfect and catch every ball.”
-Brad Gilbert says there is no greater joy than helping someone else fulfill their dreams.
-The nuances of coaching, different technique for each person.
-”What sets apart greatness is clarity under pressure.”
-Pros and cons of short-term memory loss. Always forgets wins, always remembers losses. Regrets loss of opportunity through bitterness.
-DD dreamed of being a pro basketball player, used to watch his hands hoping they’d grow. Found teamsports, collaborative, high-wire intensity substitution for sport/competition through acting.
-Brad Gilbert says there are correlative similarities between acting and sport. DD discusses Meisner technique: words aren’t as important as the emotion under them. The Mirror is The Wall to him (can go back and forth with imaginary partner.)
-The math of tennis.
-DD’s Coach Burns taught his students to care, cry after a loss.
-”See you in L.A.”, goodbyes.
PREMIUM
Transcript bits: Part IV: 1/3, Part IV: 2/3, Part IV: 3/3.
May 28, 2024 | Sarah Silverman
FOREWARD
-DD talks about first meeting Sarah Silverman at Gary Shandling’s: quiet, good ball player, sweet.
-Says “family” Shandling created gathered for one more game after his death.
-Gary Shandling’s effect on people.
PODCAST
-DD introduces, says Sarah’s in his top four comedians of all time. Ex-girlfriend in movie Evolution.
-Says she’s an actress, praises her commitments to each bit. Sarah reveals she works in “centimeters” to make each “act” look loose. Thought actors had to speak “low,” learned otherwise.
-The two joke about DD’s low style, he discusses how everyone called him “flat” (was “tight” early on.)
-Quips over failed material, “diarrhea Anne Frank” (Sarah Silverman: “And then I have the gall, next to it, in parentheses, I wrote to myself, ‘More here?’”) Worst thing as comic is bailing; says Gary Shandling was so good at being in the moment with his humor.
-DD relates Gary Shandling, Don Rickles story (Shandling: “Was it funny?”/Rickles: “Did it feel funny?”)
-Harder to pull off improv when recorded.
-DD moved, learned Sarah Silverman was depressed little girl, loved to “shock” people with humor. Wonders if she was giving herself shock therapy in a way; Sarah: “That’s interesting.”
-She relates being so depressed she left school, couldn’t function “normally.” Depression about the past, anxiety about the future. Only healthy option is to live in the moment, hard for everyone to do.
-DD and Sarah Silverman talk about failures that don’t go away. His mother died, couldn’t take care of her physically, regrets. “Human thing” for Sarah and her father that she cared for him until his death.
-Sarah Silverman relates, “Dad, great news! You’re gonna die and it’s gonna be painless.” They all got in bed together. His last days were great.
-Sarah Silverman on how to forgive ourselves for our failures to parents: “Well, how do we forgive our parents? We say they did the best they could with what they were given.” DD not sure he can “extend myself that kind of generosity.” She points out it’s good for everyone if we do: “the more we flagellate, we torture ourselves, the less space we have for others.” DD agrees it’s actually selfish; Sarah: “Not modesty.”
-Emails with Gary Shandling days before he died. Both had a hard time with Gary at times, needed rest from him towards the end of his life. DD felt he failed him in a way. Sarah says it was hard to decipher his “code” towards the end, not sure if kidding or serious; didn’t know he was hospitalized before his death.
-Both struggle, he died alone. Want to remember being with him at the basketball court every Sunday. He'd hit head with basketball, “my head is in”, extemporaneous skits.
-First time DD met Gary Shandling was on Larry Sanders Show, Gary asked him after, “How old are you? What took you so long?” Melted his heart. DD’s soul is in “funny,” humor; the “king”, his favorite, welcomed him.
-Sarah Silverman met him at basketball game one week. Didn’t connect with him until she stopped trying to be “cool” and was “warm and human” over ping pong.
-Sarah Silverman retired “arrogant ignorant” character during Trump years. Art, society changes through the years.
-Loves to apologize if she’s wrong, won’t if she’s not. It’s simple, easy. “People who don’t accept sincere apologies probably have a hard time accepting themselves.”
-Battery dying.
-Sarah Silverman gives DD advice on his struggle “off the air”, says how he forgives, loves his kids is probably how his mom felt about him. (DD: “That is so true. My kids could not fail me.”)
-Goodbyes.
-PREMIUM
Transcript bits Part V: 1/3, Part V: 2/3, Part V: 3/3.
June 4, 2024 | Stephen Dubner
FOREWARD
-DD discusses quitting graduate school.
-His mother asked him to finish until the day she died. Jokes he wished he had, if only to put Dr. David Duchovny on acting credits.
-Acknowledges it hurts not to complete something.
PODCAST
-DD introduces Stephen Dubner, read his book Freakonomics book in 2005. (Both joke about DD finally getting a podcast, “last one not to get one.”)
-Stephen Dubner still scarred from youthful failures.
-Failure informed by family’s religious beliefs (“Brooklyn-born Jews”, both converted to Catholicism, didn't assimilate away from roots.) He returned to Judaism in adulthood, didn’t like the idea of starting off life with “a black mark on you” via Catholicism, even as a child. Felt accused of something he didn’t do.
-Messed up piano performance in processional; lineup in varsity basketball flubs.
-Failing in private is experimentation. DD mentions sins of omission, commission; Stephen Dubner considers failures only he knows as “cordoned off.”
-DD asks how to release shame: can we, or are we supposed to go through it to learn? Stephen Dubner notes he’s good at observing, inspecting choices and decisions (might attribute that to growing up in Catholicism, didn’t think “forgiveness” was handled well in the Church.)
-Positive versus negative reinforcement: most do things “with an eye towards” not messing up. Creatives can’t create out of [that] negativity. Internalized failure, perhaps shame; flip with perspective of experimentation. Brings up great thinkers, scientists who’ve failed more than succeeded.
-DD counters that life teaches through pain, shame; afraid human nature is “I have to touch the stove and it has to hurt” in order to learn. Stephen Dubner points out that’s positive feedback, learning.
-DD talks about being a parent, his son was born stoic. DD, Tea worried at first, then realized it wasn’t something they were doing that was impacting him.
-Stephen Dubner diagnoses “it sounds like you like to live with the struggle.” DD: “I do, I’m attached to it in a way that may be unhealthy.” Stephen Dubner: “Or maybe mature; and maybe I like to live with less struggle.” DD feels like living “with” the problem is “the point,” Stephen agrees it’s the human condition.
-DD thinks of Stephen Dubner as a spiritual teacher, brings up Christ’s philosophy, Nietzsche. Christian message upside down of Roman world’s, meekness over victory. Asks Stephen what didn’t resonate with him about it.
-Both reflect on failure in Christian leaders, lightheartedly joke about Jesus the Magician. Stephen “attracted” to Judaism by learning about connection to his heritage, slipped into it. “Turn it, turn it, turn it” to improve the world around you.
-DD talks about starting two careers after age of fifty; doesn’t really care if others don’t like his acting anymore. Both love learning, feel young again. Soul sustenance from writing, songwriting.
-Stephen Dubner says failure is a part of accomplishment.
-On quitting Catholicism, band, other things.
-DD never learned a thing from success, doesn’t know why. “Goes back to hurt”, failure sends him inward to think. Quit The X-Files, knew he did everything he could, had to leave or the show would go on forever. Yet quitting feels like quitting people, “quitting family.” Still carries misgivings about himself to this day. Show was waning; but it was “complicated.”
-Stephen Dubner says someone taught him “substituting nuance for novelty.”
-DD shaken by country that praises winners over losers, holding grudges, metaphorically killing and humiliating others to stay ahead. Brings up Trump. Stephen points out what people don’t love about Trump is he doesn’t fight fair, which is antithetical to country’s sense of fairness. DD asks why people love him calling others “losers,” Stephen thinks his cheating at golf reveals an aspect of human nature: tribal, drawn to cheering for teams, winning at any cost.
-Stephen Dubner says there’s more upside to seeking out people who are doing good work than focusing on people who aren’t.
-In Greece shooting Malice, grew up loving Greek mythology, mirrors of extreme human behaviors.
PODCAST
-DD introduces Patric Gagne, sociopathy symptoms.
-Patric Gagne wrote book, seeks to humanize a socially de-humanized disorder. Research-backed narrative.
-Didn’t have a community before the book was published, overwhelmed by positive response.
-Patric Gagne explains inherent emotions (anger, anticipation, joy, trust, fear, surprise, happiness, and disgust) versus social emotions (e.g. embarrassment, guilt, shame, envy, empathy, etc.)
-Understood she didn’t have complex emotional development from studying her sister as a child. Terrible that society only understood sociopathy through serial killers, wondered if it was a foregone conclusion.
-Liked being unnoticed or “the cute kid” to protect herself.
-Never felt bad or like a failure, did feel broken. Answers gave her agency: knew she wasn’t broken, just “different.” Stopped masking herself, became more honest about her behaviors.
-Rebelled over being told to “can’t do,” pretended to fit in instead.
-Patric Gagne says petty crime jolted her out of sense of “apathy,” which she feared would lead to her being “outed” as different. Suppression led to intense feelings of pressure (“claustrophobia”); ignoring that pressure was fastest way for it to spiral out of control. Feared escalation of behavior; stopped most crimes before eighteen (because juvenile records would be sealed), began treating behavior in her 20s.
-Her interpretation of love (“matter of fact” rather than feeling or emotion): cares what happens to loved ones, will follow to ends of the earth anyone “who’s trying to hurt you.”
-DD broaches topic of humanity as an ant colony, needs “warriors” who will do the brave thing to protect others. “We all have a place.”
-Patric Gagne agrees: “You can say that, and I’m glad you did, because the last thing I want is anyone to think I’m romanticizing this disorder.” Says articles have accused her of fantasizing or excusing bad behavior. DD confesses he was mad at the reviews on her book, thought they were “snarky.” Both agree they were “lazy,” frustrated that rightful skepticism was replaced with willful disregard of the facts.
-Patric Gagne represents an inconvenient truth about reality.
-Likes his podcast name, “no such thing as failure,” every fail simply brings someone “to the next space.”
-DD presses how she learns from failure if she feels it differently (or not at all.) Patric Gagne equates the emotions of others’ sense of failure/shame to her intense sadness over repeated miscarriages: felt sadness and rage. Can only assume that's how neurotypical people feel, “that I had done something wrong.”
-Always faced difficulties without shame or sadness, “alright, I’m just gonna figure something else out.” Both agree it’s a superpower. Patric Gagne says many people “don’t want to hear that.”
-DD asks about her work as a therapist. Patric Gagne relates ego strength in traditional therapy versus “sociopathic strength’ (they joke): ability to diagnose others’ problems objectively, figure out solutions. “It wasn’t ‘hurry up and get over this,’ it was observation.”
-DD, Patric Gagne discuss that 5% of the population are sociopaths, likely more. Limited resources for those with the disorder, narrow societal perspective. Both laugh over “lazy Hollywood writers.”
-Both discuss “disconnect” from their children emotionally, his daughter’s illness and her lack of stereotypical attachment after the birth of her son. DD asks if that was a feeling of failure, Patric Gagne: “Yeah, that’s a really good point. I probably did feel like a failure in that moment.” She was enraged at herself for not being able to connect; then found a way forward.
-Both talk about frustrations with humanity, treatment of the planet, friendship with yogi Steve Ross (DD’s known him for thirty years.)
-DD on detachment: “You have to make an effort to feel, they have to make an effort not to feel.” Patric Gagne: “Exactly.”
-Patric Gagne really doesn’t care what people think about her (other than her loved ones.)
-Patric Gagne reveals New York Times didn’t want to believe her, portrayed her falsely. DD points out what she’s positing demands “a lot of work" from society that not many want to do.
-DD asks if there’s a difference between male and female sociopaths, Patric Gagne: “Oh, 100%.” Part of the reason why she wants more research into the disorder, not enough research on women’s sociopathic expression.
-Both discuss cognitive behavioral therapy and sociopathy.
-DD brings up artists as sociopaths; Patric Gagne clarifies conversation was around inhibition of growth after fame. He asks what is difference between actors’ plundering world for outcomes, Patric explains difference is motivation: actors want attention (DD: “Or to escape themselves”) whereas sociopaths mask out of necessity. Tricky to generalize.
-DD says acting allowed him to access his emotions, identified with her journey a little bit.
-Both quibble narcissism (Trump) vs. sociopathy. Not easy to spot real sociopath. Sociopaths struggle connecting with other people, take path of least resistance to achieve goal. “To a narcissist, though, the goal is meaningless without the validation.” Narcissism comes from a pain of deep inferiority, treatment is possible before behaviors become too ingrained.
-Both thank each other. Patric Gagne: “ I thank you for having me, honestly. Truly, this was such a fun and smart conversation.”
-DD jokes about her manipulating his narcissism and people-pleasing. She proves otherwise: “if I didn’t mean what I was saying now, I wouldn’t have stayed on the call.”
-Goodbyes.
PREMIUM
Transcript bits here~
June 18, 2024 | Sean Penn
FOREWARD
-DD talks about not actors’ anonymity growing up, culture shifted to wanting to know more. (Notes he doesn’t know if information celebrities share is curated or not.)
-Talks about sense of privacy: not arrogance or secrecy, just protective of “the job.”
-”Fear of doing this podcast” was the more he reveals and others know, the less able he is to disappear into roles.
PODCAST
-DD introduces Sean Penn, face-to-face at Sean’s house, happy to be in person.
-DD thinks Sean Penn has a strong interior sense of what does and doesn’t work.
-Duo discuss Sean Penn’s childhood, talk freedom of that era. Never liked “a dictated chore” at an early age, but naturally spent hours on dedicated task. “Sense of accomplishment when things were ‘squared away.’”
-Never thought about being an actor until family moved to Malibu, wanted to be criminal defense attorney (could defend anybody.) Realized after graduation he’d need high grades to get into law school. His brother, Charlie Sheen created homemade movies, joined them.
-Decided to become director, realized he wanted to be actor. Worked around town on sets.
-On acting: “I never had to worry about being great at it, because I just knew I was better than most.” (DD related, said he felt the same watching Robert Downey Dr., Dan Ackeroy in Chaplin. Not saying he was better: spoke the same language they were trying to speak.)
-Sean Penn found he could be natural easily, which brought its own restrictions (wouldn’t work in period dramas, wouldn’t “play” outside his own nature.)
-Failed part his father offered, invited to watch Barry Allen do the role instead. No vanity attached to doing well in acting, didn’t bother him. Wasn’t the right “tool.” (DD says his nature is “I’m not the right tool for anything.” Sean Penn: “Yeah, but he [Allen] can’t surf.”)
-DD, Sean Penn discuss early acting experiences, training, exploring “the place” rather than saying the lines or doing the actions. Both chuckle over wanting to see what Jeff Goldbloom’s looking at, his natural ability.
-DD loves Sean Penn’s “squaring away”: the poetry is “in the doing.” Sean Penn agrees, says that’s his whole aim in life-- if he can’t use or sort something, it’s gone.
-DD speaks on excitement of acting, not knowing if one is succeeding or massively failing. Sean Penn notes they are also in the hands of the director, subject to the final product being best or worst parts.
-Working with principal actors, Jack Nicholson on projects for final cut. Letting actors choose cuts, insert scenes that showed “where they were looking” that day. Harder to act, more work to direct.
-Five-hour standoff with director, producer on his first big movie (Taps.) “Will never listen to a director again, no bargaining.”
-Talks about culturally formative roles, Spicoli introduced audiences to surfer, weed subculture.
-Failures learned on the job, everyone has insecurities about their performances.
-Looking back on projects, timing is everything (had been making Into the Wild for ten years.) Both agree they continue to “make the movie” years after it’s wrapped (DD: “game you kind of play within your head, with yourself.”)
-Discuss Bucky Dent, changing roles with time.
-DD relates how Sean Penn is “such a friend to creators,” dedicated time to watching Bucky Dent with DD (peed in bottle because they couldn’t figure out how to stop projector.)
-Both loved Marlon Brando. DD picked up on Brando’s sense of failure, asks about masculine sense of failure. Sean Penn relates Brando’s great respect for acting. Found that he still enjoyed Marlon Brando’s work even after the latter began publicly speaking about other things he was passionate about; took that lesson into his own life and pursuits.
-DD brings up article where Brando allegedly stated he pretends all things said about him is true and it doesn’t bother him. Sean Penn chuckles: “he was the most charming, non-people pleaser I’ve ever met.”
-DD asks where “do you put the hurt” from being misunderstood. Sean Penn says answer would have been different fifteen years ago: “Everyone knows it now, because of social media. Everyone knows the hurt.”/”The attacks belong to everybody now.” His answer: you gotta keep moving.
-“There are an awful lot of good things that have come out of both the legitimate attacks and the illegitimate ones.”
-”There’s a point where your healing becomes your life.”
-Learning with raising kids: your own mistakes, and them learning their own mistakes.
-Both agree to shame. Sean Penn: “But that’s not when it’s illegitimate,” it’s when you “fail the obligation you have to your better self… and to the people that it affects.”
-DD really likes Sean Penn’s book, “daring people to like it” with how he read it. “Being annoying on purpose.” Sean Penn also says that some people thought that if his character thought a certain way, he did, too. DD: “That’s how criticism goes now,” laziest form of it.
-DD reads the last line of Sean Penn’s book.
-Goodbyes.
PREMIUM
Transcript bits here~
June 25, 2024 | Tony Hawk
FOREWARD
-DD talks about wanting to be a pro basketball player as a kid. Used to stare at hands hoping they’d grow bigger, thought they would; told his father.
-DD reflects on fourteen-year-old Tony Hawk who had the will but not the ability yet to achieve his vision.
PODCAST
-DD introduces Tony Hawk, flubs joke. (DD talks about that in premium, rocky start.)
-Tony Hawk wanted to be pro baseball player, early obsession with skateboarding. Fail versus bail (intentional fail.)
-Experiences about people who can’t reach full potential, others who were convinced to go past their blocks.
-Euphoria, pride in learning something new.
-Early mentors, taking on others’ beliefs as his own. Jokes about first paycheck, skateboards as business expenses. DD spent first paycheck on giant speakers, Tony related with second check.
-Tony Hawk realized he’d learn something new every time he went to skate park, didn’t with baseball. Coach tensions between father, another person; finally quit baseball, was done.
-First taste of skateboard buzz by creating his own trick, chasing it ever since. DD notes his initial love came from creation rather than competition, Tony Hawk: “Oh, for sure.” Competition was how to get attention in the early skateboarding days, none of them necessarily liked it.
-DD rolls back Tony Hawk, wants to know how he learned to squelch his nerves. Tony learns routine until he’s bored with it. DD learns roles a month ahead, then drops them until filming.
-Body versus head when performing. Will take risks during performances more than regular practice.
-Both discuss his legendary move in X-Games, had previously broken rib on technique (hadn’t practiced it in a year.) Ramp was built well, thought he could try, kept going even after timer was up.
-DD thinks failure and pain, or injury, are in the same box; sees Tony Hawk as someone who is “able to either not anticipate one or the other or not really to react negatively to one or the other.” Tony Hawk wasn’t afraid to get hurt for the sake of progress. Pain is rewarding, symbol of “what I went through to get that success.” Only came to appreciate that later.
-DD recalls a race car driver who healed his burned hands around the shape of a wheel to continue. Tony Hawk relates, “every day.” DD: “Kind of the most beautiful thing that I know… to sacrifice parts of yourself to something that you love.”
-Kept skating even when doing a different career to pay the bills, would do it for free. DD relates it to guy juggling plates at circus: “nobody cared… but he cared.” Started to cry then, moved that this man found art/sport in his own way.
-Tony Hawk “too old” at twenty-four to be skater in Hollywood movies, had to be coordinator instead.
-Duo discuss Rodney Mullen, top of the mountain. Tony Hawk says most innovative moments were the day after the competition. DD agrees, says different parts of his brain fires at different times depending on passion project or one for money.
-Long career. Low-impact sport with aging, stretching.
-DD asks about parenting. Both more terrified for their kids than themselves. Kids will listen to others more than them, nature of parent-child relationship.
-Both discuss discipline in their craft and home life. DD wants to know “how” to redirect discipline into better balance for home life. Tony Hawk says “I was a work in progress;” wasn’t a turn on so much as a new normal. Super proud of who he is now.
-DD wonders if love drives discipline. Tony Hawk thinks so “at an unconscious level.”
Part IV: Fred Armisen, Jeremiah Fraites, Sally Jenkins
July 9, 2024 | Fred Armisen
FOREWARD
-DD talks about sweet, disarming friend Fred. “Quality of Fredness.”
PODCAST
-DD introduces Fred Armisen, comedy career. (Shot The Bubble with him.) Fred Armisen filming second season of Wednesday, both loved The Addams Family as kids. Discuss fight scene in The Bubble.
-DD says Fred Armisen’s characters have “blissful unawareness” of how they “might be coming off.” Fred agrees, he pretends to like the character. Learned technique on SNL, people check out from/bummed by uncharitable characterization.
-Speed on SNL, waste of time to angst on prep day. Doesn’t matter, routine changes day of.
-DD confesses he’s fatalistic, no longer lets himself worry over scenes on way home anymore. Scary at first to rely on instinctual, not rational part of the brain.
-Amram Duchovny extra during Pilot, surprised at the many takes. Realized: “The trick of it is not anticipating.” Took DD ten years to learn that, joked Amram learned it first day.
-Became closer during pandemic, asked for help on The Reservoir’s German accent.
-Both discuss Fred Armisen’s childhood, exposure to first generation immigrants, NYC accents. Drawn to bands because of the Beetles: costumes attracted him, seemed like “other place.”
-DD gravitated to the Stones because his parents let him listen to Beetles, rebellion.
-Fred Armisen had avant-garde, performing Japanese grandfather.
-Important early teachers, Meg Duchovny mentioned. Staunch defender of children: her three-generation students still stop DD on the street, loved her.
-Fred Armisen not drawn to cultural hits, NYC youth culture as Long Island native. Needed more uptempo.
-Realization that band wasn’t working after eight years. Started doing skits, on-street characters; worked way into comedy. Didn’t have to address fear of not being a good enough drummer anymore.
-DD auditioned for all three parts on Full House, really bad at sitcom “high performance.” Fred Armisen didn’t do well at improv comedy.
-DD asks about Fred Armisen’s confidence. Fred speculates combination between “a feeling of nothing to lose” and moving around a lot as a child.
-Fred Armisen used to be atheist, believes more in a god now. DD wanted to discuss ethics as separate from religion. Fred said atheism was youthful (DD: “Punk rebellion?”) Doesn’t follow any religion, but sees experiences through an “older” lens. Has to believe there is meaning beyond death and “oh well.” Keeps him grateful, appreciative. DD believes gratitude to be like WD40.
-DD tells story about rehab, learning gratitude. Afraid of appearing at Golden Globes, told: “Just be grateful for the question.” It worked, eased off vulture reporters: “I saw the person’s [reporter’s] face, he began to like himself more.” Gratitude is a magical thing.
-Fred Armisen says it also stops time, gets him out of his head. DD agrees.
-DD asks if belief in God has changed his ethics. Fred Armisen says they’ve changed with age. Both agree that younger people think more self-interestedly, everyone else’s problem, just living their won life; become older, realize they can be better, too. How to honor “that,” “honor your friendships.”
-Fred Armisen reveals relationship of seven years ended, can look back on time spent together with peace. God also comes into that for him. DD says “we’re so programmed” into believing past relationships were a failure, doesn’t believe in that. “Relationships can be raging successes that don’t go until ‘death do us part.’”
-DD reveals he’s often felt the pressure to live by others’ “strictures,” Fred agrees. Most people “must” live that way; DD says saying it out loud is “a relief.”
PREMIUM
Transcript bits here~
July 16, 2024 | Jeremiah Fraites
FOREWARD
-DD interested to talk about people, artists being trapped in failure. Related through The X-Files.
-What do you do when you, your band, your art becomes “a brand?”
PODCAST
-DD introduces Jeremiah Fraites. Mentions lost brother to alcohol, became sober, lives in Italy with family.
-DD talks about being in Greece, myths that informed Western literary tradition.
-Jeremiah Fraites says being in new country, unable to understand new language spikes creativity (DD: “sociative creativity.”) Both agree isolation is good.
-Younger artists have new insights that they lose with age. DD feels sense of inspiration with new interests, learning abilities (instrument, writing, songwriting), “kid again.” Zen mind, beginner’s mind.
-Talking about artists walking away from famous bands, “brands.” Jeremiah Fraites questions what it must be for actors to finally “hit” right take, DD cosigns his surmisings. “Success can be a spiritual failure, in a way,” ticking a box that people expect. 250 ghost movies that can be cut from raw material. “Liberating as an actor to do what you do,” trust others with final product.
-If idea doesn’t change during its creation, it’s a failure.
-Jeremiah Fraites raised in church musical setting. Deeply spiritual, not religious. Still moved, fullbody goosebumps by spirituals.
-DD connects Jeremiah Fraites’s hands-on approach to athleticism; Jeremiah hadn’t thought of it that way. Wanted to be soccer player; waned with injuries, marijuana, more music opportunities. Drums were in his blood, made tupperware “rig” as child.
-Both talk about creating music. DD “flirting with failure” by playing, singing along with imperfect demo. “Demo-itis” says Jeremiah Fraites, 9/10 better in demo. Repeating it will be a failure. Flow state is Mecca of their craft.
-DD touches on his brother, passed from relapse, overdose. Jeremiah Fraites. Famous musician had been his friend; included in band later because of late brother. “Depression, grief, sadness, anxiety” can be used for creative mileage; push off from bottom of ocean floor to rise again.
-Winces at religious notion of “God’s plan,” for his brother. Hopes it was an escape for his brother, instead. DD thinks he embraced the infinite for his brother, himself by immortalizing the experience in music.
-Everytime Jeremiah Fraites writes music, DD hears his brother in it.
-Decided to learn more instruments than simply drums because of brother’s death.
-DD read article that said grief is relearning. Brain “relearns the world” with the loss of “the thing.” Not diminishment: is growth. Jeremiah Fraites says the worst of it is feeling grief is not being dealt with so much as it’s “dealing with you.”
-Jeremiah Fraites used to creating with small children around. Mixed feelings on drugs now that he’s a parent, complex issue. Adderall, “salted amphetamines” on bottles; it, drinking caught up with him. Terrified to write without drugs; never been more creative than now.
-Fewer days at the bottom of the ocean.
PREMIUM
Transcript bits here~
July 23, 2024 | Sally Jenkins
FOREWARD
-DD discusses Sally Jenkins’s Lance Armstrong biography: public scandal, disruption in their relationship over his deceit.
-DD wonders if the rest of humanity will be treated/treat themselves the same way as performance-enhancing athletes. Ponders on strangeness of “clean performance” in sport but not other art forms.
PODCAST
-DD introduces Sally Jenkins’s career, newest book The Right Call.
-Her father used to rhetorically ask “Who can explain the athletic heart?” as if it would solve all the world’s questions.
-DD says favorite part “of his heart” at times is his athletic heart: come face-to-face with your own cowardice. You know the truth whether you showed it outwardly or not. Sally Jenkins thinks everything (e.g. writing, acting) is athletic at some level.
-Talk about stigma behind failure, “loser.” Sally Jenkins says behind “all bullying” in the world, dehumanizing.
-Eliticism (worthy critic) versus false judgments. DD’s pet peeve learned throughout his whole life (“collecting thoughts, wisdom”) to be judgy; both laugh in agreement. Judgment is what we have.
-Grew up with wooden bats, had to adjust for aluminum bats. No one really likes them (except for the extra ten feet.) Sports Illustrated was bible for sports fans; DD’s dream was to be “a face in the crowd” (kid who was promising enough to be highlighted in back of pages.)
-Sally Jenkins discusses Andy Reid. Hypothesizes you’re more willing to “die in your boots,” take bigger swings in your craft, career as you age. The young rule break, experiment; the mature have a greater command of their abilities, able to break rules more effectively.
-Sally Jenkins says trick is to always be willing to scare yourself, take on fresh challenges. DD had “lose your luggage” type of dream the night before, podcasting still scares him (new challenge); Sally reveals she had “lose your phone,” couldn’t communicate with anyone type of dream the night before. Both agree still scared, “it’s good.”
-Wisdom, restraint, lack of vanity to keep best back for the long haul.
-Sally Jenkins brings up childhood, why she wanted to become sports writer like her father (only saw perks as a kid.) Had cheeseburger with Tom Watson at thirteen years old. Understood athletes, been around them her whole life.
-Competitive cultures create genius cultures.
-Paying her dues, learning her craft by writing for papers.
-Anxiety attacks, breathing out of paper bags due to constant early rejection. Talking about struggles with different groups (DD: “Spill the tea!”)
-Sally Jenkins got life together after her father’s advice: “You don’t get the job or the assignment that you want by doing the job or the assignment that you don’t want poorly.” (DD: “You were raised by Yoda, apparently.”) Told her growing up she was lucky that he loved his job, 98% of people in this world don’t.
-Sally Jenkins worked in male-dominated field. Worked alongside older men who were very good to her, had ethic (also colleagues with Diane Shaw.) Demanding task masters in a kindly way, taught responsibility.
-DD: “Culture is something we all kind of enforce with love upon one another.” Sally Jenkins: “Well said.” DD: “What’d I say?”
-Great coaches are those deeply invested in the lives of their players. Generosity of soul. (Popovich doesn’t play games with media.)
-Only trick in interviewing is authenticity: “How do I ask something that I am truly curious about that he is truly curious about answering?”
-DD’s coach high school coach died last year, he saw him before. Still “Coach” to him, woulda dived for basketball for him, trusted him. Coach Larry Burns cared, got DD’s act together.
-Coach Pat: “[Losing]’s gonna hurt…. Most people are afraid to say that’s the best that I can do.”
-If you go all in authentically and still lose, you still feel "so good." Different better from winning.
-Discussion of winning versus losing. Losing can become bad habit, can also teach important, hard lessons. Both agree you can’t learn to win before losing.
-”Choking,” feel weak. Fight or flight information is power, can work around that block.
-Have to practice under pressure. DD relates acting with camera on, off others in scene. “Pressure is a privilege” that pro players learn to enjoy, even when miserable.
-Lance Armstrong lies, apologies. Sally Jenkins forgave him, had taken benefits as well as demerits from experience. Her struggle is that she should have been told first, would have sympathized from him. (Don Graham, publisher at The Times: ”Don’t ever feel badly for believing in something.”)
-Both discuss about ever-escalating, impossible nature of sport, toll and effect on human body. Drugs are more dangerous than people think; don’t do what most believe they can do. Bring up eye surgeries, surgical enhancements players are now doing-- hard to draw a line, gray areas. Sally Jenkins hates the system, thinks it’s grossly unjust.
Sometimes I just feel like im in alternate universe where these two are actually together, and then i realize im watching them behaving together off the cuff and I wonder if they forgot they're not actually a couple!
Yeah, I have to say, Mulder, the anomalous musculature in the corpse we found really has me intrigued. In fact, I think I’m gonna go to Quantico and have some tissue samples run. I’ll see you Monday.
I’ve read those, and honestly I really enjoy David Duchovny’s prose. He writes in a way that feels intelligent but still very human and conversational. There’s a mix of humour, vulnerability, and random philosophical observations that somehow works.
Bucky F*cking Dent probably hit me the hardest emotionally — underneath all the baseball and sarcasm, it’s really about grief, fathers and sons, and trying to connect before it’s too late.
Holy Cow is completely different — weird, funny, absurd, but surprisingly thoughtful underneath the talking-animal premise.
Miss Subways felt more dreamy and reflective. Very New York, very myth/fairy-tale energy.
And Truly Like Lightning is probably his most ambitious. It’s slower and more philosophical, but there are some beautiful passages in it.
What I like most is that his writing doesn’t feel overly polished in a cold way — it feels like someone thinking out loud, but thoughtfully.
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