My Encyclopedia of My X-Files Fic Lists, Analyses, Fan Vids, and Fan Fiction Resources
So, I pushed all my little anthills into one dust pile because I got sick and tired of having to manually search through my colonies to find that ONE drone.
8. I personally believe he initiated and cultivated the friendship with Gillian. I think he wanted to right some wrongs and he reached out to her. IMO, they wouldn’t be where they are now without David first deciding things were going to change. Think of how different life would be today if that hadn’t happened? No Paley, no IBG, no NYCC, no Chicago, no tweets, likely no S10, no potential S11.
Okay, this is just my personal opinion and speculation. I don’t KNOW anything for sure. A lot of shit went down in the ‘90s and David’s impatience, unhappiness, and need to get the fuck off The X-Files really showed. He really was in a bad mood…that year(s). ;) It’s also clear to me that he made a decision somewhere along the way that part of coping with the grueling hours and conditions on the show would involve cutting Gillian out of his personal life and creating as much distance between them as possible. I’m not saying Gillian was an angel and victimized…I do believe it was complex and they were both difficult people. (For more on my thoughts on this, see: http://nostalgicphile.tumblr.com/post/137763163950/cate-what-do-you-really-think-the-deal-is-with) In any case, I personally think David made the final “cut” so to speak, and Gillian accepted the situation.
But by the time IWTB rolled around a few years later, I think David wanted to make amends with both Chris and Gillian. David struck me as a guy who had some demons back then. And I believe he worked hard to become a happier person. Part of that was letting go and gifting himself with forgiveness. I think losing his father had a profound impact on his worldview. I think he started to actually get to “know” Gillian for the first time, really, and they were both surprised and delighted to find they actually…enjoyed each other. Gillian also went through a great deal in their time apart and was likely cautiously receptive to mending things with him. It’s funny to go back and look at their IWTB interviews together and compare them to how they are now. They are still a bit tentative and uncomfortable with one another, but they are trying.
From IWTB on, they both tried…it wasn’t just David’s efforts that allowed the friendship to flourish (see: Gillian flying from London to see his play). However, I do believe it was initially David that shut Gillian out back in the day and David who decided to let her in.
September 27, 2000:
It would have been easier if she and Duchovny had been friends. “We were both thrown into a pretty intense situation and I guess at some point you make the decision whether you are going to have that experience together or not.”
And she chose not? “Oh, I don’t know if I chose not but … ”Did Duchovny choose not? “It never quite came to be that way,” she says tactfully.
To be fair, Gillian was also the first one who voiced (to my knowledge) their mutual desire for distance–
November 1994:
GA: “It’s a lot of work to work with someone as intensely as we do on a daily basis. Our relationship shifts and changes, and on the weekends we don’t hang out because we’re sick of seeing each other all week!”
–and was also frank discussing the matter years later–
i'm hoping to do more soon! they actually have a pretty nice variety, specially scully. feel free to reply if you have any suggestions for next ones :D
does anyone remember that one episode where mulder sits on a chair by like swinging his leg OVER the back, it‘s so edit and gif worthy yet I have never seen it again
8. I personally believe he initiated and cultivated the friendship with Gillian. I think he wanted to right some wrongs and he reached out to her. IMO, they wouldn’t be where they are now without David first deciding things were going to change. Think of how different life would be today if that hadn’t happened? No Paley, no IBG, no NYCC, no Chicago, no tweets, likely no S10, no potential S11.
Okay, this is just my personal opinion and speculation. I don’t KNOW anything for sure. A lot of shit went down in the ‘90s and David’s impatience, unhappiness, and need to get the fuck off The X-Files really showed. He really was in a bad mood…that year(s). ;) It’s also clear to me that he made a decision somewhere along the way that part of coping with the grueling hours and conditions on the show would involve cutting Gillian out of his personal life and creating as much distance between them as possible. I’m not saying Gillian was an angel and victimized…I do believe it was complex and they were both difficult people. (For more on my thoughts on this, see: http://nostalgicphile.tumblr.com/post/137763163950/cate-what-do-you-really-think-the-deal-is-with) In any case, I personally think David made the final “cut” so to speak, and Gillian accepted the situation.
But by the time IWTB rolled around a few years later, I think David wanted to make amends with both Chris and Gillian. David struck me as a guy who had some demons back then. And I believe he worked hard to become a happier person. Part of that was letting go and gifting himself with forgiveness. I think losing his father had a profound impact on his worldview. I think he started to actually get to “know” Gillian for the first time, really, and they were both surprised and delighted to find they actually…enjoyed each other. Gillian also went through a great deal in their time apart and was likely cautiously receptive to mending things with him. It’s funny to go back and look at their IWTB interviews together and compare them to how they are now. They are still a bit tentative and uncomfortable with one another, but they are trying.
From IWTB on, they both tried…it wasn’t just David’s efforts that allowed the friendship to flourish (see: Gillian flying from London to see his play). However, I do believe it was initially David that shut Gillian out back in the day and David who decided to let her in.
September 27, 2000:
It would have been easier if she and Duchovny had been friends. "We were both thrown into a pretty intense situation and I guess at some point you make the decision whether you are going to have that experience together or not."
And she chose not? "Oh, I don't know if I chose not but ... "Did Duchovny choose not? "It never quite came to be that way," she says tactfully.
To be fair, Gillian was also the first one who voiced (to my knowledge) their mutual desire for distance--
November 1994:
GA: "It's a lot of work to work with someone as intensely as we do on a daily basis. Our relationship shifts and changes, and on the weekends we don't hang out because we're sick of seeing each other all week!"
--and was also frank discussing the matter years later--
2014:
Q: Was there a sense of almost a bunker mentality where you were at least going through this process with David? You mentioned he had more experience, he had done some bigger films but still the phenomenon that emerged within the first couple years was pretty remarkable. Did it help to have him there too and kind of like “Are you getting this too? Are you going through this too? Is this weird?”
A: No. No, not really. We talk about the fact that it’s crazy that we didn’t. And that we didn’t take advantage of the fact that we had each other but it was complicated. These were long hours that we were working. We spent more time in each other’s presence than we did with our, you know, spouses and children, etc.
But also, you know, I think we p-ssed each other off, quite frankly. And I have no doubt that after they’re waiting – we’re gonna roll and somebody has to come in and redo my lips and the difference between the maintenance for guys and gals and we’re shooting in all weather – you know, we never shut down except for one day for weather in the entire show. We were shooting up in Vancouver through rain, sleet, everything. And my hair would frizz up to here in between takes and they’d have to get the blow dryer out under the tent and we’d be waiting for Gillian’s hair to do another take. You know, that p-sses you right off. It adds up. So I, you know, I’m sure there were plenty of things he did that p-ssed me off too. It just wasn’t, you know, but on the other hand.. NOW, we get to talk about that and we’re probably closer than we’ve ever been.
To be clear: both were (as Kim Manners described it) a little moody. Both were impatient and frustrated and at the end of their rope carrying an ever-demanding schedule behind them. Both were not communicating while living far away from their support systems.
Despite everything, however, both gave each other due credit in the press and called each other "friend" and wanted to continue The X-Files into a movie franchise. And both anticipated a better relationship after the show ended--
December-January 1997:
I have a feeling David and I will be much closer after the series is done and we don't have to be with each other daily," Anderson observes. "We can come back together for a second feature four or so years from now. As much as I will feel a huge weight off my shoulders when the series is done, it's gonna be bittersweet. I'm sure all those wonderful moments that David and I have shared together will come to mind and I'll be reminiscing about it for years."
And they were correct.
April 16, 2008:
Shock: What’s that like with David now that you’re not with each other 16 hours a day on a series?
Anderson: It’s great, but it was great then, too. This is like a sibling relationship and I never had siblings. I had brothers and sisters that started when I was 13, so I was out of the house and didn’t have that experience. There was always this love/hate – hate is too big of a word – but there was always something. It was a natural relationship over a period of time. Now we’ve grown up and we’re older, we’re more appreciative of the relationship period and the unique experience we had together and have an opportunity to continue that and foster it. We’ve always loved each other and we’re always going to be a battle sometimes.
You'll be minding your own business watching the x files and then bam. Gillian Anderson prettiest woman on earth. okay now back to the aliens impregnating zoo animals
Explaining Extraversion/Introversion, Sensing/Intuition, Thinking/Feeling, and Debunking Perceiving/Judging
(Credit to: Abdullah Al Bakriu)
Disclaimer: This post does not include the Interaction Styles or Temperaments, which are other models used to more fully explain (and check against) Personalty Type. Those will be discussed in future.
Main headings: TL;DR; THE BASICS OF PERSONALITY TYPE CODE; LIVING SYSTEMS AND ROLES; THE INTP AS AN EXAMPLE
TL;DR
Type is determined by the order of Sensing or Intuition, Feeling or Thinking, and their paired extraversion or introversion (i.e. is one Se, Si, Ne, Ni; and is one Fe, Fi, Te, Ti?
Example: ISFP = Se+Fi pairing; ISFJ = Si+Fe pairing.
Perceiving and Judging do not, in and of themselves, mean anything: they are simply markers (or modifiers) for the letter next to them.
For example, if one is Fi, then you will place a 'P' at the end to indicate Feeling Introversion. However, if one is Fe, then you will place a 'J' at the end to indicate Feeling Extraverted.
Extraversion and Introversion do not correlate to modern day interpretations of "introvert" or "extrovert." They are used to explain the focus of each cognitive function.
Example: Feeling Extraverted is Feeling geared towards the external world: a connective process that naturally seeks to harmonize with, support, help, or coexist with others. Feeling Introverted, meanwhile, is Feeling geared towards the internal world: "how do I feel about this?", personal values and morals and judgments.
There are eight total cognitive functions (Se, Si; Ne, Ni; Fe, Fi; Te, Ti) which create an individual type's stack. S/N functions take in information from the world around them; F/T make decisions or take action from the information gathered.
An external cognitive function must pair with an internal cognitive function. Example: ISFP = Se+Fi; ISFJ = Si+Fe.
There is one dominant, or primary, function: the Hero, which one naturally operates through (in-born.) There is a secondary, or auxiliary function: the Supporter, which develops around puberty to early twenties. There is a third, or tertiary function: the Relief, which begins during early adulthood and carries onward. And there is a fourth, or inferior, function: the Aspiration, which begins development around middle age onward (and which theoretically kicks off the midlife crisis.) The other four functions are locked away in the Shadow.
Each function is part of one's personalty but can be repressed or delayed due to environmental pressures (e.g. restricting home or early social life) or other personal factors.
Se engages with the physical world: the senses, the aesthetics, the feelings and energy it provides. Present moment focused, "all in."
Si engages with the physical world through the past: a voice or smell reminds them of a sensation (or someone) that made an impression. A slight disengagement from the present, very "past informs the present."
Ne engages with the external world through hypotheticals, metaphors, or symbols that remind the of other things, connect to other things. Present yet detached focus. Engages with others to draw conclusions.
Ni engages with the external world with hypotheticals, symbols, metaphors for the future. Disengagement from the present, necessary to withdraw from others to clearly sort information and "predict" future (i.e. identify patterns.)
Fe makes decisions based on mutual benefit: "What will make that person (and I) happy?" It seeks to connect with others.
Fi makes decisions based on subjective values: "What do I feel is right?" It engages with others and ideas through a moral framework, and seeks to improve that framework and society's ethics as a whole.
Te makes decisions based on consensus rational: "Has this been proven? What is the research?" It seeks to build frameworks or improve systems for the consensus.
Ti makes decisions based on an internal framework of consistency: "Does this make sense?" It constantly adds new information to this framework (or rejects old information) to better understand the world.
WHAT THE MBTI TEST GETS WRONG
J&P Mean Nothing… (Personality Type):
That letter on the end of the type code tells you which process is used in the external world. So N[x]P, the P tells you that the N is used in the external world [Ne, Extraverted iNtuition.] N[x]J tells you that the N is used in the internal world [Ni, Introverted iNtuition.]
That’s all that J and P do, nothing more. It doesn’t mean anything. It doesn’t mean you’re more organized, less organized. It doesn’t mean that you are decisive, it doesn’t mean-- the J doesn’t mean that you’re decisive, the P doesn’t mean that you put things off. Okay?
So, the J and P…. If you say a bunch of things about J and P as something separate, you’re really talking about something different [Ne, Ni, etc.] So, if there’s a J on the end of the code and there’s an N, you have a perception of how things will be [Introverted iNtuition]; so, you’re likely to structure the world to make that happen [Ni willpower.] If there is a P at the end of the code and an N, then that means that you’re going to live your outer life more in the extraverted world of intuiting possibilities and ideas [Ne theoretical.]
And especially if when you get two people together who are somehow in sync, and you start to brainstorming-- often nobody’s with you anymore… in the group.
All that, that letter J and P does is tell you…. It tells you that you would use your preferred perceiving process in the external world. That’s all it is: it’s a modifier that tells you that.
So, when we grouped you by NJ and NP, or SJ and SP, that’s what we were getting at. You can see that the focus of the perception is external for NP [Extraverted iNtuition, Ne] or SP [Extraverted Sensing, Se].... [External focus] changes all the time because the external world is often changing. But the introverted world, there’s something on the inside, then… where information comes to you on the inside. And Introverted Sensing is more about, it’s accessing what has been; and Introverted Intuiting is what will be. They’re opposites in that way; but… the directions are similar.
INTROVERT VS EXTROVERT/EXTRAVERT
Quick aside: while Carl Jung used E and I to describe the language of energy given or received, current cultural vernacular does not use it in the same context (or the same way.)
In short, Jung used extraversion (with an 'a') and introversion to differentiate cognitive functions, not one's singular preference to be in the company of others or to seek solitude. Therefore, Feeling Extraverted (Fe) was indicative of the person's outward focus with that cognitive function (broad interconnection, oriented towards connecting with or supporting) with Feeling Introverted (Fi) was targeted inward (focusing on personal morals, "what makes me feel good," observing others' ethics and hypocrisies.)
It was the Myers-Briggs addition that placed greater emphasis on Extraversion/Introversion's (and Judging/Perceiving's) importance in the type code. While initially meant to signify which cognitive function (S/N and F/T) was extraverted and which introverted, it snowballed into two separate measures of (misplaced) equal importance.
A little summary by Dr. Berens and Dr. Dario (via their manual
The Sixteen Personality Types):
In examining individual differences, Swiss psychiatrist Carl Jung differentiated two fundamentally different orientations. He noticed some people seem primarily oriented to the world outside themselves. He called these people extraverted. He saw other people as primarily oriented to the world inside themselves. He called these people introverted. This extraverted-introverted difference is related to where you focus and recharge your energy. Then Jung noticed that people could be further distinguished by their preferred mental processes. Jung saw two kinds of mental processes used in everyday life: the process of perception (becoming aware of) and the process of judgment (organizing or deciding).
He then further differentiated two kinds of perception--Sensation and Intuition. Sensing is a process of becoming aware of sensory information. Intuiting is a process of becoming aware of abstract pattern information and meanings. Both kinds of information are available to us, but we pay attention to only one kind at a time. Both are necessary and valuable in everyday life.
Likewise, he noted two kinds of judgment--Thinking and Feeling. Thinking judgments are based on objective criteria and are detached from personal values. Feeling judgments are based on subjective considerations and are attached to personal and universal values. Even the smallest act involves either Thinking or Feeling judgments, and both kinds of decisions are needed and valuable.
Each of these four mental processes can be used in either the external world of extraversion or the internal world of introversion, producing eight mental processes. Then Jung outlined eight psychological types, each characterized by the predominance of one of these eight mental processes (extraverted Sensing, introverted Sensing, extraverted iNtuiting, introverted iNtuiting, extraverted Thinking, introverted Thinking, extraverted Feeling, and introverted Feeling). In his writings he suggested that each of these eight dominant mental processes was supported by one of two opposing processes and that each of these eight types might vary according to which opposite mental process was used in support of the dominant.
For example, the extraverted Sensing type with Thinking would be somewhat different from the extraverted Sensing type with Feeling. Thus, his notions imply sixteen type patterns, each characterized by preferences for the use of two of the eight mental processes, as shown in the table….
THE BASICS OF PERSONALTY TYPE CODE
Quoting directly from Linda Berens's lecture You Are Not a Sensor:
Now, if you're old enough-- and I don't know if they still diagram sentences, where you have a subject and a verb and an adjective and an adverb? Think about [S/N and T/F] as the subject and the verb: they're the heart of the type code. And, and the other two [E/I and J/P] are modifiers. So, in my view, in my experience, the other two… E or I, J or P are modifiers: they're not something in and of themselves.
With the exception (slight exception) of Extraversion and Introversion, because the longitudinal studies around that-- with a different definition than Jung had, but close enough-- is it's the most stable characteristic over time. But in my experience, whether you are in an Extraverted mode or an Introverted mode is dependent on which cognitive process you're using.
PERCEIVING PROCESSES
Jung said there are perceiving processes…. I like to talk about it as the kind of information we pay attention to. So, perception is about attending to information. (Whether it’s internal or external, that’s another way we can take a look.) But… we’re accessing information. So, the S or the N refers to that: it’s the Perceiving processes. I like to call them the Awareness processes to get it away from this idea of the five senses....
So when we look at the type code, here’s what it looks like:
The Perceiving processes: there’s Sensing and iNtuiting-- we change these to gerunds because they’re active things, they’re not nouns. You’re not a sensor or an intuitor. You engage in these processes. And they can be used in the external world or the internal world. So in the type code language, it’s Se or Extraverted Sensing, Si or Introverted Sensing, Ne [Extraverted iNtuition] or Ni [Introverted iNtuition.] That means your awareness is internal (introverted), or external, [extraverted.] And this happens so fast, these various awarenesses, that you’re actually probably accessing one or two of these four processes, if not all four of them, in any particular moment….
So while I’m talking, you might be going inside and accessing what this reminds you of and checking against what was said to you before about this [Introverted Sensing].Or maybe the sound of my voice is reminding you of somebody, and so you know you’re not here anymore-- you’re with the somebody that it reminds you of…. Or you might be engaged in Extraverted Sensing and listening to the tones of my voice, or what you see on the screen or the sound of the fan that’s going on… or something that flashes on your phone: you’re drawn out into what is going on in the external world, and what is tangibly going on out there. Okay.
If you’re thinking about intuiting-- and this is not the best word to use, but it’s the one that’s been used-- iNtuiting in Jung’s frame is abstract information, conceptual information, symbolic information. Something sort of like… it’s almost like the way to define it is the opposite of what is actually physically there, or was there. Okay. So, we have intuiting in the external world (when it’s focused outward), it’s about, um, potential things that link to something… outside the context. Um, something might be a little unrelated: a flight of ideas in a way, that may come to you; and this builds on that which builds on the other thing. If you are in a moment of accessing intuitions or intuiting in this introverted way [Introverted iNtuition], you would probably prefer to do that without interacting with people. So… that’s often when these insights come. So, a solution to a problem could come wholesale, or a symbol will present itself to you, or a knowing about something that’s going to happen in the future (and it is going to happen in the future.) So, now we’re so far away from “sensor”-- you’re an “intuitor” just with these very brief definitions. Okay….
SIDENOTE: DIFFERING INTUITIONS
If you were in the Extraverted iNtuiting mode, you might be thinking about, uh, ‘Yeah, I wonder if she’s ever thought about how this connects to something else.’ And, ‘I like this graphic thing! I think there would be lots of possibilities for using this in some other setting, so here’s some ideas that I have.’ So, kind of brainstorming on ideas that are outside the context, not in the context.
If it’s iNtuiting (Introverted iNtuiting) if you’re there, you may have spaced out a little bit and gone into a different world and sort of disconnected. And had some ideas that come to you about the-- I don’t know, some problem that you’ve been working on elsewhere and this… is enough to trigger you thinking about that. Or something symbolic: you may have had an idea about a different way to present this whole thing that popped into your head. Okay.
Very simplistic.
JUDGING PROCESSES
And then there is the T and F. The T and F is either Thinking or Feeling. (Which, by the way, is not… really the best translation from what I understand about from what Jung meant. But I don’t speak German enough to know.) So, that is a metaphor: it isn’t about thinking or feeling. This more of a metaphor from what we can talk about. And these are called Judging processes. I prefer to call them Evaluation processes. They’re, ‘What do we do with that [Perceiving] information?’ And we have preferences for one over the other.
So, we have Judging processes: so, what do you do with information [from Perceiving]? Now, perception doesn’t always perceive judgment: Awareness doesn’t always perceive the Judging process. You may have some information that you need to do something, to make a decision about it; and then you seek certain kinds…. So, it’s like an interrelated loop. Okay.
So, there are two: one is called Thinking and one is called Feeling.
Thinking doesn’t mean thinking. I mean, it doesn’t mean that you’re able to think. Feeling doesn’t necessarily mean feelings. In fact, it wasn’t intended to mean that.
Feelings inform what you call the Feeling function because that’s how you know what those kinds of, that kind of evaluation process is about: it’s what’s important, what are the values, what’s important to other people….
If we go to the introverted version [Fi] to make an evaluation, it’s like, ‘What’s important?’ The simple level: ‘Do I like it or not?’ Um…, ‘Is it good for me?’ Might be, ‘Is it good for people?’, sort of in a universal sense. On an Extraverted sense of Feeling [Fe], there’s a… we call it Connecting: it’s about connecting with others. So, that the focus is on what’s good for you, what’s good for the other person. What do they [others] want more often than the internal ‘what do I want?’ Very simplistic definition here, it’s much richer than that.
With Thinking, then, you’re evaluating something based on either external data, measurement, logic (external logic) [Extraverted Thinking]... or internally, you’re looking at the frameworks that you hold that are objective frameworks that you can explain in some sort of a model [Introverted Thinking.] Okay, so.
Thinking in the sense that they’re detached from feelings, and Feeling in the sense that feelings give you information about that. So, when you’re with somebody and they start to cry… in this cognitive process of Extraverted Feeling, you get a sense and may know what this person needs at the moment. So, it’s not so much the feeling of the crying as it is the knowing what to do in connection with that person….
SIDENOTE: DIFFERING THINKING AND FEELING PROCESSES
Let’s see if I can do the Extraverted Thinking, Introverted Thinking, Extroverted Feeling ones….
[Extraverted Thinking] might be saying, ‘So, what’s the research around this? How do we know the Myers-Briggs has done E/I/S/N/T/F/J/P for years?’ (Lots of research data. At least if you’re in one of the early qualifying programs, you had to memorize and learn a bunch of stuff about that.) Um, and so you might be looking for some, some external measures. Or you might say, ‘Wow, I like this configuration here! This is really a logical explanation.’ (Now, you don’t have to have a preference for any of these to have that mental activity going on. This is just an example of a kind of activity.)
So, Introverted Thinking, well, ‘Is what she’s saying accurate? This is what I learned what that meant, this doesn’t match what I learned before. Is it accurate?’ Or, ‘Maybe she could define this a little more finely because I think that’s a fuzzy definition.’ So, going internal to your frameworks and checking for consistency.
If it’s, um, Extraverted Feeling-- looking outward, connecting-- you might be wondering how other people are feeling in the moment. You may see somebody’s expression on their face, or you may notice that, uh, Stephanie went off screen for a while and think, ‘Oh, what’s she doing? I hope she didn’t hurt herself!’ I don’t know, you-- it’s whatever you can think of….
For me, what happens is I’m saying, ‘I’ve been doing a lot of lecturing now, this isn’t enough. We have to stop lecturing, we have to get more involvement.’ So, I’m using two things: concern for my participants, you guys, and the frameworks I have (about good design.) All right, so.
Now, if you had this Feeling process Introverted going on for you [Introverted Feeling], you’re going to say… ‘Wow, this is profoundly important! This is good. We need to spread this word!’ Or you might say, ‘Well, what she just said isn’t really congruent with the way she’s behaving. It seems like she’s respecting this but she doesn’t.’ Or [noticing] some kind of incongruence….
So, what we have then are these eight functions. Well, they’re different cognitive processes that are… organized in a certain pattern. So, what does this letter on the end [do], the J and P?
J and P does nothing but point [in a direction.] So, if you have a P on the end of your code that stands for Perceiving, and that means that it points to which process you would use in the external world. So, if there’s SP in your code, you’re likely to prefer the Extroverted Sensing [Se, e.g. XSeXP] as a way of dealing with the world most of the time. If there’s an N on the code, that would mean that you’re like to prefer, um, seeing patterns and connections, emerging patterns, and seeing how something here removes [or] relates to something looking like it’s not related at all [Ne, e.g. XNeXP.] All right. So, that’s what P tells you.
If there’s a J on the end of the code, then that tells you that the Judging process that’s in the code is used in the external world. So, if it’s Extraverted Thinking [Te, e.g. XXTeJ], then that tells you that you’re looking at external logic, measurement, constructing things, systems, things like that. If there’s an F on the code [Fe, e.g. XXFeJ], that means that you tend to live your outer life with connecting, with wanting to have connections, with making decisions about what’s good for you, what’s good for the group.
What happens to the other letters? What else is there?
EXTERNAL VERSUS INTERNAL WORLD: E VS. I
So, the E and the I-- and I don’t have a graphic for this-- so, the E and the I.
If there’s an E on the front of the code, it tells you that whatever process (let’s see if I can point this out) is extraverted, it’s the one that you will favor because you prefer to live in the external world.
(Note the placement of the cursor pictured.)
So, if it’s an ESP in the code… then Extraverted Sensing is what you lead with [primary function of four main functions in a Personality stack.] And then, the other one that’s in the code [be it an F or T Function] would be used in an Introverted manner.
So, the type code tells you just with that information… what kinds of activities you’re likely to prefer to engage in in your external world and in your internal world. Okay.…
So, you have an internal process and an external process that the type code tells you kicks off an understanding of the pattern of, ‘What do you lead with [primary function] and what do you support with [auxiliary function]...?’
So, there’s this whole idea of the external world and the internal world; and each process happens there. And then we have these four:
And here’s another way we like to present that
(so, with a little more detail):
We like to use the terms for Extraverted Sensing about ‘experiencing’ and ‘noticing.’
For Introverted Sensing, we like to talk about it as ‘reviewing.’ And what you’re reviewing is what’s going on inside.
Extraverted iNtuiting, we talk about it as ‘interpreting’ here: interpreting something and inferring what it means.
And Introverted iNtuiting, we call it ‘foreseeing.’ It’s also… I don’t have a good word for it, but it’s about symbolizing. Like, symbols come to you.
So, these are some of the meanings. And each of these processes is used in an Extraverted or Introverted way. (Then we could do the same for the other functions….)
[These processes] range from simplistic and basic to extremely sophisticated and archetypal. So, when we’re young, we’re using them in a more simplistic way, usually. So, Introverted Thinking is about getting to the essence of something: noticing what it really is, what are the essential qualities of it. And in a simple way, you’re checking against frameworks that you already know; and of course, once they’re in there, it takes a crowbar sometimes to make room for a new one. (Says somebody who knows well that it needed a crowbar a few times, even to the point of having to give up my favorite models.) In the more sophisticated ways, it’s really about analyzing things in such a way that you, you drill down into what is at the essence of it; and hopefully find a single word that will convey that essence. And that’s true for Introverted Feeling, in terms of, like, the level of sophistication of the values that you’re looking at first: it’s the values you’ve taken on; and then you start to see more and more finer distinctions of value. We call it ‘valuing;’ and we call thinking and introvert thinking ‘analyzing.’
LIVING SYSTEMS AND PATTERNS
So, what happens is, you have these eight processes; and the holistic system’s view is that these eight processes are in a pattern. They’re in a configuration in the personality, in the way that… in relationship to each other.
So, to understand living systems, you have to look at the pattern; and the pattern is what stays the same over time.
You can look at processes, which are activities that maintain the system.
And then you can look at structures.
And then you look at meanings.
So, when Dario Nardi did the brain research, he’s looking at some structures that support the pattern and how that plays out. And what we know is the brain is plastic, meaning it, you know, it’s shapeable. So, with experiences, you can change what the brain does, what the activities are in certain situations. And yet, underneath that-- what Dario’s finding is-- that there’s still the essence of the original pattern, even though a certain area of the brain might have been developed… that’s typical of other activities.
IDENTIFYING THE SYSTEMS AND PATTERNS
So, what John Beebe identified, and what Jung hinted at, and what Isabelle Myers when she developed the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator also got at a little bit (when she, you know, they identified their interpretation of Jung, she and her mother) was that there was a dominant process [primary function] and an auxiliary process [second function.]
And then… they identified a tertiary process [third function] and an inferior process [fourth function.] And, of course, most, a lot of what was written is that the inferior was inferior, then, in quality.
And then the rest of it [fifth through eight functions], well, that’s just there-- it’s in the Shadow. We don’t do anything with it. John Beebe identified that there are these eight cognitive processes [functions]-- which, I showed you the letters-- that occur in a pattern naturally; and that process is likely to play a role in the personality, a specific kind of role….
So, one tends to play a [dominant] heroic role. And the positive side of that is that’s the kind of thing, process that you use habitually… probably skilled at it because you’ve practiced it; and it’s often the kinds of things you do to save the day. And who doesn’t want to be a hero? So, we try to apply that to other things; and the downside can be dominating.
So, for me, my pattern: iNtroverted Thinking is my leading role [INTP]; and it plays as heroic role at times as I’ve clarified, ‘Oh, this is this and this is that; and this is not that. And you know we have all these--’ This whole business here [referring to charts pictured above.] But sometimes, I’m just so frustrated because I know I’m right and then I put that on other people. And I did that in the association for typological type for a long time, and I said, ‘You’re wrong.’ People don’t like to hear that, so that’ didn’t work too well. But it’s a dominating thing.
So, there’s a plus side and a negative side. [The primary processes] tend to be more positive, but they can get into the negative. So, there’s that….
So, the Leading Role [primary or first function]: Hero, Heroic, whatever term you want to use.
Supporting Role [auxiliary or secondary function]: it’s a good parent, it’s the way you help people.
A Relief Role [tertiary or third function] will be the form you might take to play a lot. Um, it gives you relaxation: creative child.
And then there’s the Aspirational Role [inferior or fourth function], which is the idealized self. It’s what you want to do.
So, for example, in my pattern INTP: I talked to you about this heroic introverted thinking or analyzing, but what I aspire to [Extraverted Feeling Inferior], this idealized self, is to connect with others and to know what to say to people to make them feel okay or good and to have a good experience. And so, there’s this aspirational self….
DEVELOPMENTAL STAGES
The way the type development theory goes, as you start off in early life-- if everything’s equal and you’re able to do what it is that you prefer to do what the natural preference is, the natural inclination is-- you develop this leading role [primary function] and you get more and more skilled at it because you’re drawn to those kinds of activities. And then the supporting role [auxiliary function]-- according to some type theorists and observations-- does tend to emerge more as you go into your teen years, maybe a little earlier.
But they’re there playing all the time. And Elizabeth Murphy (who works with children) thinks we really haven’t had good descriptions of what it looks like in children. So, she’s done a lot of research with children.
The Relief Role [tertiary function] often comes into play in-- according to this one developmental theory-- young adulthood. And so, we start to see these other kinds of things.
And then somewhere around whatever was called ‘midlife’ comes the Aspirational Role [inferior function.] And so, that’s often… we’ll see midlife crisis happening, you know, having to do with that. Or choosing a career in young adulthood that goes with the Relief Role [tertiary function], whatever process is there; but then getting bored with that or finding it isn’t really as satisfying as we thought….
OPPOSITIONAL ROLES
And then the other four processes play roles when we need them to. We can dip into them, but they have these other roles.
One is the Oppositional Self [fifth function]: that’s the way we get stubborn.
Critical Parent role [sixth function] is the way… we tend to be critical of ourselves, mostly. Like, ‘That particular process? We can’t measure up.’
With the Deceiving Role [seventh function], Phoebe called it the Trickster archetype: it’s like, ‘If only I can do this, it’s going to be so much fun, it’s going to solve everything!’ and all that stuff.
And then the Devilish Role [eighth function] is when you get to say, ‘The Devil made me do it.’ It’s, it’s, you get caught up in whatever process that is. So, in my courses, I tell some very revealing stories about that and get people to find those things.
IS THE SEQUENCE OF PROCESS DEVELOPMENT VARIABLE?
Yes, the sequence of development has a lot to do with what’s going on and what you need to survive or to do well….. There was a theory that really kind of put these with ages. And um, when I look at all of the people I’ve known over the years who could talk about this and who knew their type well enough, it seems to hold true. And I could track it in myself. But it’s certainly not a prescription: it’s not a, ‘Oh, it’s always going to be this sequence.’
WHAT CIRCUMSTANCES COULD YOU USE THIS TO HELP PEOPLE NEGOTIATE?
If you’re wondering that, is that Fe or Te?
Uh, it depends on the motive behind it. If it’s a desire to connect, or is it the desire to put order on the external world?
USING THE INTP AS AN EXAMPLE
So, this is my type code, and I’ve talked about it….
I like to do a stick figure because there are two processes that work on the, um, spine (what may be called the spine of the personality.) And if you understand chakras, that’s where the energy flows. And if you happen to favor chiropractic practices, you know that if things are flowing in the… spine, then the healing energy is getting out to the rest. So, there are all kinds of [important analogies] to the spine of the personality.
So in the pattern, my Leading Role [primary function] is Analyzing. I almost could not not do that; and it’s hard to turn it off.
And then the Aspirational Role [inferior function] is Connecting: so, paying a lot of attention to, um, worrying about [Connecting] often more than behaving in a way that is Connected. ‘Are the learners in my courses getting what they need? Are they comfortable sharing?’ You know, ‘Have I set a safe environment?’ Those kinds of things seem to come from that. (But they could also come from the principles I’ve learned about good training….) But it’s a strong desire. Okay.
Supporting Role [auxiliary function] is Interpreting in this pattern. So, it’s about: if something’s going on and somebody’s troubled, I’m most likely to try to think of other options for their actions or what could they do.
And then Relief Role [tertiary function] is Reviewing, which is why I sometimes get stuck in the stories about history [of personality typing.] Then that may or may not be what’s relevant at the moment when I tell you all the details.
So stereotypically, INTP in the type [MBTI] language says that I’m not into details. Isn’t true. The types of details I’m into are about theories and models and about all of the contributing factors to something that come from past experiences. So, another type might be interested in, in details that have to do with what you’re actually seeing; and I’ve had some training in that, so if I’m doing coaching with somebody I’m watching their faces and I’m watching their non-verbal behavior. I’ve learned to do that. Had to be taught to do that, because that’s what is in my shadow processes.
So, the Devilish for me is Introverted Feeling: getting stuck in something I want.
Deceiving is Extroverted Sensing: I don’t trust my insights into the future, that sometimes they’re really powerful. It’s a critical parent thing…. When I get something organized, don’t mess with it (physically organized.) That’s the segmenting: [it] gets stubborn that way.
So, there’s a whole story that we can tell about how these processes are in our pattern-- once you get to the best-fit pattern.
So, if you think about your own pattern (what you know about that), what questions have come up? Um, what insights came to you?
I put down my dog this morning
And cried some
mourning
the loss of his mute expressive soul
That afternoon, at work, a blue sky punctuated only by small loitering clouds
The world moves on in its blithe way
and doesn’t care
About a little dog—-
It’s already as if he never existed
But he did
He sure did
It quite literally has everything: a peak into DD's reflective, interior nature; his desire to be more open about his life (but his reticence given past experiences); a discussion of childhood wounds (and grounding); his roots of internal/external objectification; his revelations from Gabor Mate; the "compost" of his education, giving back through his work; his style of acting and early rejections; the ego of wanting to be "seen" instead of Mulder; talking about acting jealousies, the nature of change with his daughter; post-COVID touring struggles; the sneak cheek noises he slipped into Bucky Dent (that his son loves); and his thoughts on god and spirituality-- that all of it, the human experience is truly an expression of (or rejection of) love.
From top to bottom, a thorough, honest, open discussion.
Transcript below; but the interview is worth the watch.
*-*-*-*-*
PH: I am thrilled to meet you. I'm a big fan of yours um. I I think you're very very funny. I actually-- you know I just did a movie with Judy Greer--
DD: Pressure.
PH: Say what?
DD: Pressure. [PH: What pressure?] I love Judy Greer.
PH: Judy Greer is amazing, and she told me to watch The TV Set--
DD: [Smiling] Yeah.
PH: --which, uh, I did. And I thought you were phenomenal in it. And I'm also friends with Jed, and Jed was like, ‘That's kinda me!’
DD: It is.
PH: And I I kind of saw you do a little bit of a character study on Judd, with the back problems and the, you know, the, the--
DD: The ponch.
PH: --the heavy crown of the producer.
DD: The ponch.
PH: And the ponch, of course! [Laughs.]
DD: Yeah, I-- that was funny, with that with that movie, because that was Jake Kasden, um, writing and directing. And it really, you know… Jake pitched it to me as this is kind of my experience with Judd on Freaks and Geeks. I was like, ‘Oh, yeah, yeah. I'll play, I'll play Judd, you know. And nobody f-ing knew who Judd Apatow was.
PH: Yeah.
DD: And the day we did the table read-- you know the week before we were going to start shooting, we did a table read. For investors, because it was cobbled together like, you know, twenty bucks from this guy…. And you know, it was just a true independent kind of labor of love film for the Kasden family.
PH: Yeah.
DD: And we f-ing went to the screening-- the premiere screening of 40-Year-Old Virgin that night-- and I just remember sitting there and watching the audience just go nuts. And I was like, ‘Oh they're gonna know who Judd Apatow is now.’ [Chuckles.]
PH: Yeah, you’re outta the bag. You’re outta the bag.
DD: I actually started to play him when nobody knew his name; and then by the time the movie came out, he was an adjective. There was like Apatowvian.
PH: Yeah, yeah, yeah, This is how uh Jason Alexander must have felt when Curb came out. They're like, ‘Oh, there it is. There's the guy that I was kind of invoking the whole time.’
DD: Right.
PH: And now Larry David is almost-- well I don't know. I, I don't know if you'd say more famous but maybe as famous as Seinfeld I would say that.
DD: Yeah. In his, in his, in that way, yeah. I mean, I was-- I'm sad that I never got to be on that show, um.
PH: You would have been great on it.
DD: Yeah, that would have been fun to do. It seemed like, uh, it seemed like a bit of improvising which I like to do, and….
PH: Yeah.
DD: But back to Judy Greer, uh, just such a talented, such a talented, funny, beautiful woman. I mean, I just, I love Judy Greer.
PH: No, she was wonderful; and I'm glad she told me. Somehow I had never seen, heard of that movie. And as somebody working in L.A. that's… you know, I've created my own shows. My experience-- I, I, I, worked with some really-- with TBS I worked with a very hands-off network; and then with HBO, I worked on, like, uh, like respectfully hands-off network.
DD: Which were--
PH: So, I didn't have the experience where the--
DD: Which were the shows that you did?
PH: I did a talk show called The Pete Holmes Show that was on after Conan; and then I did a show that Judd, uh, directed and, and co-created with me called Crashing on HBO, which was about being a comedian coming up in New York.
DD: Yeah.
PH: But in both cases, we didn't have the nightmare that is the movie The TV Set of, like, getting noted to death and all that sort of stuff.
DD; Yeah.
PH: I-- [Laughs] Well anyway, you’re doing a podcast-- [breaks off with a thought, repeats] --anyway?
DD: I know!
PH: That doesn’t get-- what is going-- why? What’s going on, David? [DD: Laughs.] Why are you doing a podcast? It's called Fail Better, am I getting that correct?
DD: Yeah, yeah. [Teasing intonation] You don’t have to say it like that.
PH: [Picks up on the joke, makes a weird face] Fail Better? [DD: Laughs.] With a question mark and an exclamation point? And it’s underlined.
DD: Yeah. Yeah.
PH: No, no, no. It's a great title. We say on this podcast all the time ‘Fail Faster.’ [DD: Intrigued.] We say, ‘Fail faster, find the fun.’ Which I didn't make up.
DD: Oh. Where, where’s that from?
PH: It's, it was framed in a video game-- like, in an independent video game company had it framed as their mantra. ‘Fail faster, find the fun.’ [DD: Skeptical face.] So, if somebody was like, ‘What if this game was two-dimensional instead of three-dimensional?’ --do it! They would just be like, ‘Just do it! Get to the fail because we know that that fail yields the result.’ [DD: Huh.] Is that sort of the theme?
DD: I guess. I mean, I don't know. I mean, one of the things that's interesting about doing a podcast-- as I'm sure you know-- is that you don't really know what you're doing or thinking or saying until you're out there doing it. So.
PH: Yeah.
DD: My sense was-- and this happened during the strikes of last year. So, my agent said we can't do anything for you, you know, nothing can be done. But we can do podcasts. Did, did you ever think about doing a, a podcast?’
PH: Oh, wow.
DD: Because that's covered under SAG AFTRA, or whatever.
PH: Yeah.
DD: And I was like-- [scrunches face]. ‘Uh… no. But I guess I could talk to somebody about it.’
PH: [Chuckles.]
DD: And I came up with a couple ideas and had a discussion with the, uh, agent there. And then we just sold it -- it was like, ‘I wish the rest of Hollywood was this easy,’ you know?
PH: Yeah.
DD: Or-- [almost chuckles]-- or the people making decisions could actually make decisions that quickly, you know?
PH: Right.
DD: It, it was kind of beautiful in that way. And I'm working with this company Lemonada, which is, they, they've been amazing and, and really collaborative. But I mean my sense was, you know-- [looks down, serious] --I don't know what I'm talking about. I just know that a lot of things are tinged with failure. Um, in the creative arts and in, and in life. And, um, even, even the successes can sometimes feel like that. And obviously personal failures, as well. I, I don't know, I don't know how to process them. I don't know….
DD: You know, we talk about resiliency, and we talk about all this. It's not like I have any answers-- all I'm doing is, is having people come on and saying, [gestures hand at camera, as if proffering an object] ‘Are you interested in this angle of the discussion?’
PH: Yeah.
DD: Looking at your life as a series of failures-- [PH: Laughs.] --surrounded by occasional successes, whatever.
PH: Right. Right.
DD: ‘And what did you learn? How did you grow resilience, if you did?’ Uh, ‘Are there some failures that stuck with you forever that, that continue to hurt?’ you know. ‘Cuz we have this narrative that, ‘Yeah, you know, you learn from failure. It's cool, it's great, you got to fail.’ But some failures really kinda stick.
PH: Yeah, yeah.
DD: You get [unintelligible] hurt. What do you do about those? So--
PH: Yeah.
DD: --that's, it's just… that's just the door opening. I don't know what the f-- I'm talking about. I'm no expert in it, I'm not a psychologist. That's just… I think it's an interesting angle on a discussion. That's kind of what I'm going after.
PH: Well, I mean, we've been doing this show for a long time; and I, I think you're doing two things really, really perfectly, actually. One is being loose about your premise because the premise is going to fall away--
DD: Right.
PH: --as I'm sure you've discovered.
DD: It’s just a premise
PH: But also inviting the guest to be vulnerable.
DD: Yeah.
PH: Even if you don't end up talking about failures, you're saying, like, ‘Will you come on in the spirit of someone who's willing to talk about their failures, even if we don't end up doing that?’ It's just like--
DD: Yeah [unintelligible.]
PH: Yeah, exactly.
DD: And also I don't want to-- I'm not trying to spring anything on anybody. I'm not interested in, like…
PH: That's us, too, yeah.
DD: [Chuckling] Re-litigating--
PH: [Animatedly] I say it! I go, ‘It’s not a gotcha podcast!’
DD: Yeah.
PH: In fact, I'll say that to you-- even if there is something in a week, and you go, ‘Oh, I wish I hadn't said that!’
DD: Yeah.
PH: We just take it out.
DD: Right.
PH: This is something, you know we're making together--
DD: Yeah.
PH: And then I feel like people actually do want to share. And that was actually my first planned question, was like, ‘How open is David Duchovny, Why Won't You Love Me--’ [DD: Grins, chuckles.] ‘--gonna be on a podcast?’ Because honestly--
DD: [Unintelligible.]
PH: --I have you on you're on my podcast right now-- [caught whatever DD said, both chuckle mischievously] --and I'm like, ‘How open is David Duchovny, Why Won't You Love Me going to be on my podcast?’
DD: Well, there’s a couple, a couple--
PH: Have you give that some thought?
DD: Yeah, I do, because a couple of things have been… have been nagging at me since I’ve started doing my own podcast. Which is, you know, I don’t want to give away my good sh-t, you know? I like, I like you, Pete. Cool, you know. But if I come up with something good, I'd rather it was on my podcast. [PH: Laughs.] So there’s, there’s like, something--
PH: Oh well let me give you a tip: just do it on both. That way, nobody cares!
DD: [Pointing] That’s the other thing!
PH: It’s true!
DD: The problem with doing a podcast now is, is everybody is kind of hip to how to do a podcast now or how to, how to speak on a podcast. Everybody's got the rap down pretty good. And I'm so not interested in that. And I'm not interested in hearing it come out of my mouth, either. So, I guess I, my answer would be: I try to, I try to address whatever questions you have in an original way. I'll try to answer them as if I'm answering them for the first time. [Maybe] I am.
DD; But, um, the, the other part of the answer to that is…. [Fingers over mouth, long pause.] Uh. I, I, I think I've lost it, whatever it was-- [PH: Laughs.] --I lost the thought. But it was [unintelligible]--
PH: Well, how open are you gonna be?
DD: -- being vulnerable. How open am I gonna be?
PH: You don’t want to use your sh-t on my podcast.
DD: No, I might! No, I’ll be open! I’ll be open. I, I know--
PH: [Rushing in] No, no, no! I--
DD: I know I can, I know I can be open--
PH: [Switching gears, lightening mood] You wouldn’t have said that if you were really gonna lock up the vault. Nobody would think you’re being--
DD: [Switches gears] Right.
PH: --tight.
DD: Yeah. Yeah. I, I think, um….. [Long, serious pause.] You know, I think everybody just goes through this calculus now where, where they go-- you know, ‘We're, we're all f-ing whores. We want to entertain, you know? And I want to make you laugh, and I want to make your audience laugh. But [you] do the calculus now, where you’re like, ‘Well, is that laugh worth it?’, you know? Is, is, is the laugh worth it?
PH: Well, I actually think that the pod-- we're a comedy podcast but we also kinda lean self-helpy sort of stuff. And, like, one of the great reliefs of this show is that we're not really trying to be funny. We have, like, huge laugh moments; but you'll-- as an artist-- you'll appreciate sometimes they have a 90-minute or a 45-minute setup to that moment-- [DD: Laughs.] --you know what I mean? It's just kind of talking. But then you actually score in this, like Babette’s Feast: like, a long thing that only has one punchline. It’s kind of like that.
DD: Yeah.
PH: And it became its own art form. And like you, I get angry that something-- podcasting, that essentially was like ham radio, it really was like dorky and kind of underground; and like--
DD: Right.
PH: --‘This is where we'll have conversations that aren't slick.’
DD: Yeah.
PH: Now, the bigger the guest I have-- which is why I asked it of you, because you're very famous. I was like, ‘Is David Duchovny gonna play ball?’ Because if I have… Like, somebody's like, ‘Who's your dream guest for the show?’, you could say Matt Damon; but I'd worry that Matt Damon has been through the PR machine--
DD: Right.
PH: --and he's just gonna know the, the [unintelligible, breaks off], and where to pull back.
DD: Right.
PH: But you know, like… where, where, where's your line? [Laughs.]
DD: Um. [Chin in hands, thinking.] You know it just depends. Because like I said, I, I've got I've got kids. I've got an ex. I've got people in my life now. I've got a girlfriend. Um, you know. Again, I do the calculus like, ‘Yeah, I'd love to be honest; and I'd love to, to help like if what I could say could help or be funny or whatever. But I also don't want it to rebound on me.
PH: Right.
DD: I, I, I have not had good experiences, uh, in the public sphere with being understood. I've been misunderstood a lot, and there's no way I can make myself understood-- it just has to happen naturally.
PH: Is there a mantra that you carry? Like, if you're feeling like you're slipping into some old pattern, is there something that snaps you back into the, the, the David you want to be? Is there some advice that you've received? Whether it's about addiction or, or marriage or relationships or not, but it, the-- that's what I'm in the market for is, like--
DD: Yeah.
PH: --those things that can be a help to you.
DD: I guess I'm interested in-- and what I, what I'm interested in, in my podcast as well-- is, is, uh, shame, you know? Just, uh, how, uh, difficult it is to, to…. [Trails off, brief exhale.] To figure it out in, in your own life. Uh, areas in which you have, have been shamed or feel shame. And, uh, to go into those… to go into those, uh, areas. Even if it's just sex or divorce, there's a lot of shame involved. And, um. Shame just kind of heaps upon itself-- you know, it kind of grows exponentially in some weird way.
PH: Of course.
DD: And uh, that's the killer for me. It's like my, my adult life has been, ‘Why do I feel ashamed--’ [looks upward, thinking] ‘--for nothing?’ [PH: Nods.] And how that shame grows; and then it… and then that, the shame kind of pushes me to behave in ways that I don't feel are constructive or, or loving--
PH: Right.
DD: --or anything like that. So, that's been my, my…. I don't really have a mantra.
PH: Right.
DD: Uh, I mean there's, there's some great 12 Step mantras; but I don't really have one. I mean, I love ‘Expectations are future resentments,’ that would be good for you on this podcast here.
PH: [Smiling] I like that.
DD: Uh.
PH: [Chuckles] No, yeah.
DD: Uh, so. Uh, there’s, there’s good little touchstones. And I find them in poetry, as well. It's not just like self-help type stuff; but I, I'm a reader and, you know, I, I find literature is philosophy, is life philosophy. I find it in religion, as well. So, there's, there's been so much writing and, and thinking and religion about the very nature of our, our shame as humans. Uh, original sin, I don't know what you want to call it. But there are many different names for it.
PH: [Nodding] Mm hm.
DD: And that's been kind of my interest as an adult. As an adult creator.
PH: Me, too. It's written--
DD: And, and I don’t feel-- I don’t feel like, uh, you know…. It doesn't sound like the funniest kind of, uh, concept to, to go at; but it's, it's super funny. [DD: Heartily chuckles.]
PH: What is super funny?
DD: Shame. [Laughs.]
PH: [Laughs loudly.]
DD: [Unintelligible.]
PH: No, I think that's what we're trying to salve through entertainment a lot of the time. I mean, wouldn't you say?
DD: You know, I had this guy Gabor Mate on my podcast; and he's an amazing addiction specialist and a, and a therapist and a, and a doctor. And in his book The Myth of Normal that we were talking about, he said, you know, all this traumatic sh-t happens between the ages of zero and three. Like if you can get your kid to three-- [makes an emphatic hand movement]--
PH: Hm.
DD: --without, without f-ing him up, you know, you're fine.
PH: Mm.
DD: And, uh. So, it's not even, like… it's not even like the sh-t you remember, either. [PH: Yeah, yeah.] It's… we're kind of f-ed, because we're, we, we do have this sh-t we can process since we were conscious and we could put words on it. But then there's other stuff, like lack of attachment or, or neglect that happens between zero and three. And, and, and we're, I think we're very sensitive animals; and, and a lot of that stuff can, can happen to us before we can even put a finger on.
PH: It, I completely agree. Uh, Allan de Button-- [pronounced like ‘deh button’; DD: cracks up] --it always sounds funner…. Alain de Botton? [DD: Yes.] I don’t even know. [DD: Yeah.] You know who I’m talking about?
DD: Yeah.
PH: I’m gonna put this to you, this blew me away when I heard it. ‘Cuz talking about shame, you're, like, ‘Why am I this way, why am I this way?’ And I'm not looking to blame, but I am looking to understand. And he says you can tell a person's mental health by how badly they want to be famous. [DD: Chuckles.] And when I, when I heard that I was like, ‘I knew I was f-ed up!’ Not in a bad way, and not even in a finger pointing way; but I was like, ‘Yes!’
PH: You said attachment-- there was something just a little bit off. Everybody was doing their best; but there was something that was off. [DD chuckles knowingly.] Nobody gets into a business-- like, I heard you talking about when you're working, you have what you called What's Next Disease--
DD: Yeah.
PH: --meaning it's like, it's not even really about getting on The X Files and just enjoying it. It's like you-- I'm not putting words in your mouth. I'm saying for me, there's a temptation to go, ‘Let's fill the hole! Keep filling the hole, keep filling the hole!’ Keep proving that we're worthy, that we're not shameful. I get this way with standup: I'll be feeling, like, broken and weird. I’ll feel like a Frankenstein on the beach-- [DD: Smiles.] --like everybody's having fun on the beach and I'm just like a monster.
DD: Right.
PH: Then I go and do standup, strangers laugh, they hear me, they understand me. I exist.
DD: Right.
PH: They exist. We're together. It's like I took 15 Xanax-- I feel fantastic for several days.
DD: Wow.
PH: But that, that's just-- that is what it is, I'm not mad at that. But I will also say, I don't think that's the healthiest or the most normal situation. Do you relate to that?
DD: It's the healthiest for you--
PH: [Nodding] It works for me.
DD: It is the healthiest for you.
PH: Yeah, it, it does. I'm not mad at it. A lot of people--
DD: It’s your coping strategy.
PH: Right.
DD: You know, and as coping strategies go, it's, it's productive, you know. It's, it, it may not ever work as long as you want it to; and there may be a, a deeper answer that you're, that you will find or that you find one day or, or you don't.
PH: Yeah.
DD: But they're all just coping strategies with whatever kind of, uh, discomfort we have with ourselves. How-- I, I don't know if I would agree with… [pauses, grins] de Button’s-- [pronounced ‘deh button’; PH: chuckles] --uh, statement being, you know, putting it on fame. But he's definitely, he's definitely got his finger on some button which is, you know, this, this desire to-- you know, it's kind of the need to be objectified in a way. You know? It, it's, it's an impersonal kind of a… approach to being loved. This is… being loved by strangers or being loved by--
PH: And isn't that safe, right? It's safe if we keep it parasocial one-sided.
DD: Safe but it also means we were objectified at some point. At some point we became objects to ourselves, you know? Like, we didn't we, we stopped being subjects. We stopped… [pauses, sighs] …validating our subjectiveness in a way. I know this is sounding f-ing [unintelligible.]
PH: No, it's great! But, you know, just the idea that, you know, you could sit in your skin and enjoy the day and enjoy the sensations coming your way and the people in your life, and just be a subject. Just be a thinking, feeling, heartfelt, soulful thing. ‘No, I'm an object. I've been objectified in some way.’ And I'm aware of that in my life. I, I, I was comfortable from a very young age being watched. And I don't know what that comes from, you know. It's, it was in sports: I liked being in front of a crowd, I liked playing sports in front of people. And I was comfortable with it. So, there's something in me that was comfortable with being an object. Um, and that continues to this day, I guess. Um.
PH: That's funny. I just-- so, John C. Rylie just did the pod; and he was-- in my mind, famously disagreed with this statement. [DD: Laughs.] But going with what you're talking about… well, Ted Danson [does] this quote-- everybody knows I ask every actor that does the show, I ask them this question-- Ted Danson has this quote that I love: he does a take, he walks back to his other actors, and he goes, ‘Isn't acting embarrassing?’ And I find that really funny.
DD: Yeah.
PH: That it's, like, pretending is kind of a transparent thing to do. Meaning, everyone knows you didn't just see an alien that turned into a lizard-- like, you were faking it. So, to me as, as kind of a performer, when I do acting I, I find, like, a lot of my job is getting over the sort of embarrassment of playing pretend. But it sounds like you like being watched. Do you feel that way as an actor, like it's not embarrassing? It's natural, it's normal? Like, ‘Hey, look at this!’
DD: [Laughs.]
PH: Or, or are you kind of, like-- are you still David going like, ‘This is kind of weird. I was just talking to the--’
DD: Oh, I've always been embarrassed by it.
PH: [Laughs loudly, launches off-camera.]
DD: No, I have. I mean, I've always been embarrassed by the need--
PH: Okay, the need. What about actually doing it, is that embarrassing, as well?
DD: It’s silly-- [PH: Laughs.] --y’know?
PH: That's sort of what I'm getting at. Maybe that's a better way to that!
DD: But that doesn't mean it's not beautiful!
PH: Yes.
DD: Yeah.
PH: No, it's all silly! There's the--
DD: The silliest things are the most beautiful things. [PH: Nods.] I mean, it-- what I…. I mean, it, it's more beautiful for, for being ridiculous, you know? [PH: Mm.] And, and it obviously has a, a value in the culture because people pay us a bunch of money to do it; so, there's a service that's going on. People love stories, they like to see people go through stories. I understand it's like a service, you know? Like, it's not a… it's, it's not curing anything; but it's, we're storytelling animals and we like to see the stories. We, we, we love that. We want to go on those rides. And that's legitimate, it's legitimate to, to be in the center of something like that.
DD: But I think, um, when, when I think about why I became an actor-- aside from, like, talking about objectifying myself, um, it's also…. I, I grew up kind of being an intellectual kid. I was, I was an athlete but I, my mother, my mother really, uh, drove home the need for me to do well in school. Mostly because it was just a safety net for, for life, you know, that I'd get a decent job or you know. She came from no money, my father came from no money, so…. But I was raised by my mom and it was very, um-- you know, the gutter. She, she's Scottish. She would always say, ‘You’re gonna wind up in the gutter, you know, if you, if you don't get this ‘A’ or that ‘A’ or whatever. And it was, it was stressful. Stressful. Um, it sounds, um, laughable when I say it out loud now; but, but it's stressful for a kid. And I'm not-- and again, I'm not blaming her.
PH: Yep.
DD: She, she, she came from a tough, tough time.
PH: Right.
DD: And it’s not--
PH: But we can honor-- I, I relate to that. I, I was so stressed out in school I had a bald spot on the side of my head. [DD: Smiles.] I was just like, ‘This is life and death!’ [DD: Smiles, chuckles.] So, while I appreciate-- as I did-- saying, ‘We're not pointing fingers we're not, uh, you know, making ourselves victims or whatever,’ we can also honor, like…. When you're little-- and you were little even in high school, you're still little-- it's like, you can't differentiate what is and isn't the end of the world.
DD: No. I don't think the, you know-- they're, they're, they're doing brain studies now; and, you know, they…. I've got a twenty-one-year-old son, and there are people that tell me, like, the male brain isn't, isn't complete until twenty-five or something ridiculous, like that!
PH: That, that's why Enterprise won't let you rent a car until twenty-five. [Both laugh.]
DD: I could have just made that up….
PH: It’s all good! Welcome to podcasting!
DD: It might, might be twenty-five months, I don't know. [PH: Laughs.] So, um. But for me, like, getting back to what I, what, what I'm trying to say about, you know, what acting means to me, aside from being silly. And I love Marlon Brando, my favorite actor; and he hated acting, I think. [PH: Mm.] I mean, he was a genius; but he thought of it as ridiculous-- and the wearing of makeup and all this stuff, you know. It’s like, ‘What a, what a ridiculous way for a man to make a living.’ [PH: Hm.] And um, he's like my touchstone. But for me, coming out of, like, an, an intellectual background where emotions were not the coin of the realm, you know? It wasn't, it was… what I felt wasn't the important thing, it’s what I thought was important. And then I stumbled-- I was going to be writing, and I stumbled into acting class because I thought I should learn something about acting if I was gonna write for the stage or screenplays or whatever it is I thought I was gonna to be doing. And, lo and behold, I was in this world where that was the thing that you got, uh, validated for! It was not what you thought but what you felt! And all of a sudden--
PH: It’s exactly the deficit, right? [DD: Yeah.] I mean here we are, we're on the playground now.
DD: [Nodding] Right.
PH: Absolutely, yeah.
DD: And, and… ah! I was like. ‘Wait, I can, I can do all these things and nobody's going to get hurt, you know?
PH: Yeah.
DD: Because, you know, my mom-- single mom, tough, tough life. Uh, fragile, you know? Prone to depression. Uh, so, me being contrary or me, uh, having problems in my life were not cool. That wasn't, that wasn't part of the deal. I was gonna be perfect. [PH: Hm.] But here was a space-- [PH: Yeah.] --where that sh-t didn't fly at all! You know, it was the opposite and nobody got hurt. I didn't hurt my mom; I didn't, that didn't hurt the other actors, you know? Like, I could yell in their face--
PH: [Smiling] Wow.
DD: --and feel the, the anger that I felt underneath it all; and then we go out and hug! You know? And it all felt amazing. So--
PH: Yeah, see, you're-- okay for…. Everything you're saying is so beautiful and it helps me understand…. So, my wife left me when I was twenty-eight. That's what Crashing is about.
DD: Oh.
PH: And we did this scene where we had this big fight. And Judd is directing, and you know Judd loves a good relationship fight-- [DD: Laughs.] --so he's turning up the volume. I probably wrote it very like, how--
DD: [Miming a microphone to his lips] Did he have the mic-- did he have the microphone yet? Was he pitching the mic?
PH: You know, honestly, dude, it's one of my greatest acting achievements-- thank you for asking-- is that he stopped directing us during the fight, and he told me afterwards that that was a tip of the hat. So, thank you for that self-serving moment--
DD: [Laughs] Right.
PH: --because I felt so proud. It was one of the first acting things I did, and it was very emotional; and he was, like, not interjecting with the mic--
DD: Right. [Chuckles.]
PH: --which Judd sort of famously-- I think McKay, too. They, you know, they yell out lines into the mic.
DD: Yeah they're just yelling out alts, you know?
PH: Exactly-- which is awesome. Every one of them is a--
DD: I loved it!
PH: Yeah.
DD: I loved-- there was one time he yelled out on alt and I didn't understand it. And I just said it like a question? [PH: Laughs loudly.]
PH: Yeah. That's, uh, good.
DD: Yeah. [Laughs.]
PH: Did it make the movie? Was this The Bubble?
DD: Yeah, it was The Bubble. I don't know if it made it in. But, you know, I'm, I'm having a scene with Leslie Mann who's… plays my on-again, off-again wife, and-- it's his wife.
PH: Yeah.
DD: And, um, we've adopted a, a, a boy-- like a ten-year-old boy just to make us look good. We're, we're f-ed up actors, and. So, we've adopted this Latinx boy to make us look like we're, we're cool. And, uh, I clearly have not that much interest in them. And, uh, I'm just trying to, to bed Leslie again in the scene; and I'm saying, you know, she's saying, ‘Don't look at me like that.’ I'm like, ‘I don't even know, what, how am I looking at you, Leslie?’ ‘You know what you're doing!’ I’m like, ‘I don't-- I'm not doing anything--’ And, uh, Judd goes-- and she goes, ‘Okay, we're only going to talk about our son, okay?’ And I…. F--, I can't remember the kid's name; but Judd goes, ‘Well, our son looks really good in that dress tonight.’ [PH: Laughs.] I did-- but I didn't get it. I was like sitting there out there in the scene, and I was like-- [puts on a confused face] ‘Well, our son looks really good in that dress tonight?’
PH: That is great! That is-- and you said it anyway!
DD: Yes I did. [Laughs.]
PH: That's trust. That’s trusting your director. Incredible, I love that. So to your point though, in real life when my real wife really left me--
DD: Yeah, yeah.
PH: --I was very quiet. I, you know-- you're bringing up all these thoughts, uh. As a child--
DD: [Unintelligible.] I, I want to, like, get into, you know, your, your sh-t. But, uh, how open are you gonna be with me?
PH: Ah! [Leans off camera] Very good, David Duchovny!
DD: So, when she, when she, uh…. You're saying she left you. It was just, she lowered the boom, said, ‘I'm leaving’ and you're quiet? Or was it a process of-- [inaudible.]
PH: Well--
DD: Yeah.
PH: --it was…. I can tell the story I think pretty quickly. We were living in Brooklyn because I wanted to be a comedian and she had been following me around. I started noticing this distance. We moved to Sleepy Hollow, New York--
DD: Yeah, yeah.
PH: Upstate. Terry Town basically.
DD: Yeah.
PH: Uh, because she was, uh, from the country and she wanted to be in the country; and I was like, ‘Oh, this will fix everything.’ We go up there and it gets worse. There's more and more distance like, like you can feel it! I was a, I was a baby boy-- I was twenty-eight years old, so I didn't know what was going on. Looking back the signs were everywhere-- you know, you're in bed with backs to each other-- [DD: Nods.] --and you're just, ‘Like what the f--?!’ I thought it was because we weren't seeing each other because now I'm commuting into New York City to do three minutes-- literally three minutes of standup comedy 11: P.M. in The Village and then going back two hours.
DD: [Nodding in sympathy] Wow.
PH: It was hell. I go home and she's distant; and I'm like, ‘Well, this move isn't working!’ Right? Lo and behold, uh, she was having an affair. She had been having an affair. She tells me, and I was, like, the picture of naivety-- I, I just didn't know, I didn't see it coming at all. And there was no fight. Because to your point, growing up as kids, that feeling, like, there isn't enough room for my feelings. Again, everybody did the best they could; but I felt more like the, the, the lion tamer--
DD: Right.
PH: --for other people's feelings. So, having learned that pattern, here's this devastating moment. There's no fight! There's no moment of, like, ‘How dare you, I trusted you!’ [DD: Smiles.] There's none of it. Cut to all these years later doing Crashing and, you know, yelling--
DD: Yeah.
PH: --and letting it out and saying things that you felt…. And so, exactly to your point, I was like, ‘This is wonderful. This is--’ People pay in therapy to do role playing like that.
DD: Right.
PH: You know? Because it heals you.
DD: Yeah.
PH: Which actually goes back to what you said earlier about acting. It's like, you know, we're not curing anything. And I don't want to be two self-involved actors, but I would say…. You, you mentioned poetry, I know you're into literature. How many times has your heart been healed by Mary Oliver? I mean, how many times is-- whoever your person is.
DD: Right.
PH: Probably prevented a disease from forming because you felt represented on a page of a book, right? I mean, that happens.
DD: Oh yeah. Of course. And, and it…. And I hope this doesn't sound super egotistical but I, it, it happens with my own work sometimes.
PH: Yeah.
DD: Like, when it's good enough. And especially having written novels now; it's just to, like, hold it in my hand and to, to look at some of the passages that I would, would have forgotten, you know?
PH: Yeah.
DD: And I'll go, ‘I'm happy leaving that behind,’ you know? I-- my thoughts turn to death a lot. It's, I'm, I'm not being morbid; but I think about what I leave behind. Not that it really matters, uh. I, I don't like talking about legacy and sh-t like-- I always like when athletes talk about that, I'm like, ‘Shut the f-- up,’ you know? [PH: Chuckles.] Who cares? Who cares about the legacy? But-- [PH: Yeah.] --I'm happy that I'm leaving some expressions behind, some, some…. Whether it's in some movies and television shows or whether it's music or whether it's in the books, there's parts that are really exactly what I came here to do. You know, like, that, that I'm looking through my own eyes and feeling with my own heart. And that's-- and thinking with my own brain. And that's, that's the-- all those things can come together occasionally. The rest of it is super silly and, and embarrassing. [Smiles.]
PH: But I-- the vehicle might be silly, but the result…. Sometimes I try to remember what a movie meant to me when I was seventeen years old, you know what I mean?
DD: Yeah.
PH: For me it was Good Will Hunting I went and I saw it-- changed my life. I was like, ‘You can leave Boston?’ [DD: Laughs.] I'm from Boston. I was like, ‘You can leave?’ [DD: Laughs.] Like, that movie ends with Matt Damon doing the impossible, which is leaving Boston! Also, I mean, there's so many movies…. Mulaney has a great line where he goes, ‘In all Boston movies, the, the antagonist is Boston.’ [DD: Laughs.] Like, it's like you're trying to just leave Boston. [DD: Right.] And when I saw that in the movie….
PH: So, like, I'll do you one worse though. Meaning, not egotistical but to take it up a realm. Richard Roy the Franciscan-- he's a teacher of mine and he's a beautiful man-- he says that the meaning of life is to humbly and proudly return what you've been given-- [DD: Hm!] --right? You were given all of this experience! So, there's a paradox there-- [DD: Hm, yeah.] --being humble about it [DD: Yeah.] --but also being proud about it. That feels like acting to me, that feels like writing to me.
DD: Yeah, yeah.
PH: Like, you should be kind of ashamed. And you sort of are, it's a little embarrassing. [DD: Oh, yeah. Yeah.] But you do it anyway. [DD: Yeah.] But we're in this place that is creation--
DD: Well--
PH: --and is flow and expression. And when you merge-- and I want to put this all back to you-- [DD: Chuckle snort.] --but when you merge in that river of, of movement-- of honest moving, if it's honest acting, writing, directing, whatever you're doing-- aren't you sort of in sync with the nature of reality?
DD: Um. [Long pause.] You're in sync with something. You know? I think you're in sync with…. I, what resonates to me-- and what you say is, um-- giving back. Because, um…. And going back to my mother, again, in education, uh…. I went to graduate school in English literature, uh, to get a Ph.D. I didn't get my Ph.D., but I almost did. You know, I got close. So, I read books and poems, um. And I sat my orals; and when you sit your orals for Ph.D., you have to be responsible for ten out of twelve subjects and those subjects are like-- Shakespeare is one. Um.
PH: Wow. This is the oral exam?
DD: Yeah.
PH: They're gonna-- where--
DD: It's oral exam. You don't, you got nothing with you. You might as well be f-ing naked, you know. You're walking-- you don't, you don't have a phone. [PH laughs.] It was before phones anyway. You can't look anything up.
PH: Yeah. And there's a board of scary, like--
DD: [Nodding] Board of scary professors--
PH: --professors.
DD: Yeah. [Laughs.]
PH: And they go-- do they call you Mr. Duchovny? ‘Mr. Duchovny--’
DD: Probably.
PH: ‘--what is your field?’
DD: I don’t remember.
PH: [Laughs] Yeah.
DD: I just remember walking from my apartment to my, uh, oral exam; and it was snowing. ‘Cuz you do two years of classwork and teaching--
PH: [Nodding.]
DD: [Crinkles brow, second guesses] Is this boring?
PH: I'm lovin’ this.
DD: Okay. So, you do two, two years of classwork--
PH: I actually was just thinking you're gonna be-- I know you already did your podcast, but you're great. For what it's worth! [DD laughs.] Now I'm interrupting! Well, you do two years of classwork-- go, keep going!
DD: Yeah.
PH: You’re doing wonderful!
DD: Two years of, uh, classwork, but you're also a teaching assistant. Um. And apparently I had Sean Levy as one of my students. Found out--
PH: Oh, really? [Chuckles.]
DD: Found out much later. [PH laughs.] I didn't remember him but he remembered-- well, because he was one of many.
PH: Yes.
DD: And… so. Um. They give you a full semester after your two years to, to go and just read. So, I'd spent the last five months reading probably ten-to-twelve hours a day trying to shore up the gaps in my knowledge for these ten of twelve subjects. Like--
PH: Wow.
DD: --I punted on, on Beowolf. Like, I I knew I wasn't going to get that. So, I, I, I punted on a couple subjects; but I had 10 to do. And it's like 19th century poetry, you know, early novel-- so, these huge subjects. All of Shakespeare: not just the plays, but the poems and the sonnets and everything.
PH: What?
DD: Because they can go in-- they can, they can f-- with you if they want to. [Tilts head, smiles.]
PH: It sounds like the whole thing is designed to f-- with you! [DD nods.] None of this sounds like it's designed to make you succeed! I mean, are we mad about this? [DD chuckles.] I'm a little mad! It's also just favoring--
DD: No! This is what I’m getting at!
PH: Go ahead!
DD: I’m not mad at all. So--
PH: I’m mad.
[Both laugh.]
DD: So, I'm walking to that meeting on, uh, is it High Street? New Haven. And, uh, I just had the sensation that my head was the size of a blimp because it truly felt like that. Like, I couldn't get anything else in there. I mean, I had just been reading for four months every day. And, in fact, I was living with a woman at the time and I wasn't paying a lot of attention to her; and she came to find me in the library, and there was, like, three of us graduate students together. And later that night I came home, and, and she said, ‘I have to apologize because I saw the way they look and I understand now what you're going through.’
PH: Wow.
DD: Because this, this haunted, pale… you know, malnourished, worried kind of a state. So, I, I get in there and, uh. So, anyway that-- the, the orals was fine. I, I passed them; and, and the, the scary professors were were kind, you know. And they, they don't actually try and do gotcha, stuff you know? They, they, they want-- [Pauses, takes a breath.] In the best sense-- and, and what I feel like is wrong with American education-- is they often test for what you don't know, they don't test for what you do know. And, and I feel like it would be a much better educational system if we tested for what they do know, you know? And get them excited about what they know rather than scared about what they don't know.
PH: I love that. I love that. I, I'm already trying to tell my-- she's only five, but I try to tell my daughter, like, it's like learning is stealing. [DD laughs.] Like, to make it sexy. Like you're stealing! You're taking these--
DD: [Laughs.] That’s good.
PH: --like, art is, is stealing. It's sexy! Art, uh, learning will, will help you meet people. It'll get you better friends! It'll get you better food! It’ll get you better--
DD: This is all good.
PH: --hotels! It'll get you--
DD: I don't know about that.
PH: It'll get you better hotels David. I would not have--
DD: You had me, you had me-- You had me.
PH: Until hotels?
DD: The food, the food thing was weird.
PH: Well because you're going to get a better job.
DD: Okay. Alright.
PH: And then you're going to be eating better food, probably.
DD: Alright.
PH: But it, it's certainly-- to take it back when I still had you-- you are going to make very interesting friends and you…. And, and, you know. I'm also implying you're gonna have better relationships. You're gonna have-- you're gonna be interesting because you… you took--
DD: [Emphatically] You’re gonna be interested in yourself.
PH: Yeah, that too.
DD: That’s the thing. It’s like, f-- other people!
PH: Yeah.
DD: You’re gonna have thoughts!
PH: Yeah. Show yourself some respect! [Smiles.]
DD: [Draws back, laughs.]
PH: And put some good stuff in there!
DD: [Shrugs in agreement.] That’s--
PH: You remind me. Joseph Campbell, I remember before he started teaching, went off into the woods. It’s like that mythic-- [DD: Yeah.] --kind of trope. And you did that. You read for twelve-- were you taking notes or you just cramming it?
DD: I'm sure I-- I’m sure I was taking notes. I mean, I, if I run across a book from that time that I was using the, all my notes are in the margins. That’s when I, you know, before we read electronically, you could actually read with a pen. I, I, I like reading with a pen because I like-- [PH: Yeah.] --having thoughts and writing in the margins, even if I never come back to it. But what I was, what I was getting to from the beginning of that story was…. You mentioned, um, humbly and proudly giving back? Is that what you said?
PH: [Nodding] Returning what you've been given, yeah.
DD; Returning what you've been given. So, it took me… um, I published my first novel when I was fifty-five.
PH: [Deadpan] So, last year?
DD: [Chuckling] Yeah, last year. So, I, I, it took me thirty… thirty years to start to give that back .And once I started to give it back, I realized how deeply all that stuff was in me and how, how much I loved it; and how much I loved being in conversation. And that's how I see it: my, my work is a conversation with what I was given. So, I'm… like, these books started a conversation in my head and now I'm finally…. Not that everybody has to write a novel to have a conversation, but that's my way of joining the party and saying, ‘I respect that party; and that party means a lot to me.’ And, uh. So, yeah, I, I do, I do respond to your, your line about-- even though I can't get it right…. [Chuckles.]
PH: No, you actually kind of… you didn't-- I wouldn't say you improved it but you did make it quicker. [DD: Chuckles.] ‘Humbly and proudly giving back’ is what you said, but-- which is ‘Returning what you've been given.’ So, you did make it a little more succinct.
DD: Yeah.
PH: [Chuckles.]
DD: So I, I do. And, you know, I'm accused in my writing of, of, of too much elusive-- ‘elusiveness.’ You know, like, referring to other authors. But I do it… I do it honestly. I, I really-- I'm not looking sh-t up. Um, maybe if I, if I'm quoting something and I want to get it right, I’ll do that. Or I'll just kind of paraphrase it. But I have so much in my head still from that six months of cramming that--
PH: Right.
DD: --it looks for places to come out.
PH: And that is…. You know, it reminds me of the Picasso thing, like, ‘Great artists steal.’ It’s like you’re actually-- what actually is unique is the bowl: it's not what's in, it's how those things dance together. Now I'm going to change the metaphor: like. in the washing machine of your brain.
DD: Yeah. I call it--
PH: You put all these interesting things--
DD: I call it compost heap.
PH: Even better.
DD: Because--
PH: Because it’s devolving.
DD: Yeah. It’s sh-t. It’s all dead sh-t. But it’s lying there. [PH: Laughs] It’s beautiful, dead sh-t. It’s guano, bat guano. Very expensive.
PH: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
DD: And this is what I would tell my kids, ‘cuz they, they grew up just at the cusp of when the phones were omnipresent. Way worse now. But, you know, yes the phone has all the knowledge-- you don't need to know these things. And I hated memorizing dates and sh-t like that, I'm not talking about that. Um, but you need, you need a lot of ideas in your head to just sit there inert. A lot of stuff that doesn't seem interesting to know.
PH: Yeah.
DD: If it's, if it's all crammed into that brain of yours, eventually they're gonna knock into to each other and something is going to spark. [Unintelligible, cut off.]
PH: And you're also….
DD: New, new thing is gonna happen.
PH: That's exactly right. And isn’t it weird, like, why is something more interesting to you that goes back to how you were raised, but you become this incredibly interesting search light. Like you're your own search engine. You and I could listen to the same lecture and would write down and underline a different thing. And isn't that just exactly what we're doing here? We're all holding different parts of the mystery and somehow we all come together and hold it all up together?
DD: Yeah. And, and that's-- you know, to go back to the, the wound, you know, that, that's what usually…. You know, you have to, like, be thankful for that wound because it gave you--
PH: Yeah.
DD: --you know, it crushed your lens a little differently. You know, not to [unintelligible]--
PH: That’s exactly--
DD: --farsighted or whatever. But it's, like, gave you a vision--
PH: Yeah.
DD: --in your quest to heal yourself or to understand yourself or to understand those who raised you or those you loved or whatever, is really what's, that's you giving back, you know?
PH: That's right.
DD: That’s you giving back to the world.
PH: I was just going through-- just this morning, my wife and I went to coffee; and I was complaining about something my mother did. Just said, pretty innocently; but it really sent me off the rails. And I said to Val, having had a coffee and a little conversation to process it, I was like, uh, ‘At least I'll be useful now.’ Meaning, we do podcasts together, my wife and I on Friday--
DD: [Intrigued] Hm.
PH: I do this podcast with you here, it’s coming up. I'm like, I'm not very useful until I'm broken. [DD: Hm.] Broken Pete is actually one of my favorite Petes. [DD: Laughs.] He, he, he could--
DD: Am I getting Broken Pete? Am I getting--
PH: Oh, yeah. [DD: Smiles.] You know what it is? It’s very simple--
DD: Pete, you wanna tell me what it was? What happened with your mom, Pete?
PH: [Chuckles.] I know, I will tell you.
DD: Yeah, I want to hear.
PH: My parents had a very tumultuous relationship, and it's their 50th wedding anniversary. And my mom keeps asking me to do more and more things. Like, I'm going-- [DD: Leans back, hand on chin] --and I, and I keep telling her that's, I go, ‘My presence is the present.’ Like that's what I'm doing. [DD chuckles.] But she keeps asking me to, like-- the ask that for some reason…. It was, like, the third or fourth-- and by the way, I, I, I don't know. People can judge this if they want. It's a very complicated relationship, that's what I'll say. So, when she was like, ‘Can you print up photos of me and Dad for the party--’ [DD: Laughs.] And I just… like, I basically whiteout. I, I'm this close to shaking that--
DD: Right.
PH: And Val is helping me. She’s going, ‘Pete.’ And again, my parents-- I've, I've done my best to forgive them, it's an ongoing process, I love them, I understand as well as I can understand; but that was the relationship that put me in a crockpot and cooked me into a comedian…! [DD laughs.] That's not, that's not a natural thing, yeah?
DD: Oh, wait! What, what, what, why… why did you flip out at that? Because she was [unintelligible]--
PH: Because she’s asking me to help--
DD: --be the party planner or something?
PH: To be the party planner--
DD: Oh.
PH: --for a relationship that is very complicated for me. Like, ‘Will you help us….’
DD: Whitewash this.
PH: Whitewash it, yes! It’s, it’s like-- you know, I don’t want to overstate it, but it’s like the warden at the prison I used to go to being like, ‘Will you, will you print up pictures--’ [DD laughs] ‘--of your time? Remember the yard? And I'm being, I'm exaggerating but that is how it feels to Child Pete. You know what I'm saying?
DD: Right.
PH: And, and I have to honor that. Child Pete-- [DD: Right.] --that's how he feels. So, I, I start to whiteout; and then I, and then we unpack and, and she helps to understand all of that. And I go, ‘That's good, ‘cuz I know there's a lot of people out there that are getting-- flying off the handle-’ [DD: Right.] ‘--at seemingly innocuous things. Your mom asking you to print photos is not a big deal; but we have these like tsunamis of response. [DD: Right.] And that is one of the…. But at least I'm useful. I'm like, ‘I'm not much use if I just walk around going like, [lower register] ‘And I've forgiven them--’ [DD: Laughs.] ‘--and everything is fine. And I just remember--’
DD: Namaste, namaste.
PH: Yeah. They’re, they’re-- you know, I try, I try to remember that at her core my mother is the exact same thing that I am: she's just consciousness.
DD: Huh.
PH: I do that, but that's intellectual--
DD: Yeah.
PH: --and, and I need to bring it into my body. And my wife is so good at that, Val is so good at that. It's like, she's like, touching-- [starts patting his chest, touching his arms]
DD: [Pointing knowingly] That’s brilliant.
PH: She was having me do this at coffee. She was like, ‘Touch your arm--’
DD: That’s brilliant.
PH: Right.
DD: She's, she's grounding you, yeah.
PH: [Nodding] She goes, ‘Touch your arms, your extremities are getting no love--’
DD: [Smiling] You’re here now. You’re here now.
PH: Exactly! This resonates with you?
DD: Yeah, yeah. My girlfriend does similar things like that.
PH: Yeah.
DD: She was raised like that. Her father would, would touch her like that-- [mimes poking the air in a pattern] --you know?
PH: Oh, to get her in her body?
DD: Yeah. Yeah. And I’d never really, I’d never seen that or heard of it.
PH: Was that EFT? [Mimes dotting his face] Is that what she was doing?
DD: [Rubbing chin] I don’t know. I don’t know.
PH: [Shifts to poking his shoulders] Is it like this? Is it these points-- [goes back up to temple, down face, chin, neck, arm] --one, two, three, four, five? Eh, it doesn’t matter.
DD: [Watching intrigued, smiling] I don’t know.
PH: I do stuff like that--
DD: Yeah.
PH: --because your, your body goes into…. We just were-- I'm going to throw this back to you-- my, Val was like Fight, Flight, Freeze, and Fawn. I forgot about Fawn! And my strategy is Fawn! [DD drops hand from chin.] Meaning, if I tell my parents they're the greatest in the world, everything's a copacetic.
DD: [Interest caught] I never heard of Fawn. I didn’t know--
PH: Me neither.
DD: --Fawn was part of it.
PH: Me neither. I thought it was a deer.
DD: I thought you were saying ‘fun’ like a Boston guy.
PH: [Heavy accent] Fon. [Both chuckle.] That’s, that’s more Long Island--
DD: There.
PH: --but Long Island and Boston is very similar.
DD: Yeah.
PH: But, uh, but these coping… of, of going like, ‘Just tell everybody that they're the best, no room for your feelings, all that sort of stuff, just kind of send it back out.’ So, your girlfriend helps you get in your body. That's interesting. Tell me, tell me what that made you think of.
DD: Well, when you were saying that, it made me think of this discussion I had with Gabor the, the guy I mentioned, on the podcast. [PH: Yeah. Yeah.] Because he's uh, he's like eighty; and, uh, in his book, uh, that we talk about, he talks about his wife not picking him up at the airport when she should have and he's super p-ed, you know? And he's this guy who's supposed to handle all the sh-t-- [PH: Laughs.] --and he's like, ‘These little things….’
PH: Yes.
DD: So, we, we were talking about that. And, you know, for him-- and I hope I'm not getting him wrong and he, maybe he'll hear this and hate me-- but for him, it's lengthening the period between the poke and the response. [PH nods.] You know, it's, it's-- because you're never not going to have the response. That's, that's the false hope--
PH: Yeah.
DD: --is like yeah, ‘I'm going to get to that point where--’ And that's what Scientology is the promise of, where I'm not reactive.
PH: You'll never have the reactive mind, yeah.
DD: You won't have the reactive mind. I will be, I will be-- I'll be the actor, not the reactor.
PH: Right.
DD: Not possible. Like especially if it happened preverbally, it's, it's not gonna happen. But you can lengthen the time between you getting triggered and you lashing out or leaving your body or whatever it is that your wife--
PH: Exactly.
DD: [Unintelligible] --or however. And then, you know, obviously you have somebody-- you've chosen your wife to help you--
PH: To regulate.
DD: [Unintelligible] Yeah. So, that's great, too, that you have somebody to help. But you can do it yourself, as well-- you can do it alone.
PH: Yeah. To me, I, I've gotten so much mileage-- now I'm just saying this to you as, you know, your new pal--
DD: Mm hm.
PH: --the deep breath in and the long breath out-- [DD laughs] --the mouth, I can't get over it. I, it, it helps so much. I heard, uh, Dr. Huberman talking about it. It, it lowers your cortisol--
DD: Right.
PH: --pretty incredibly.So after that text, I'm in the car, I'm driving to a podcast-- I'm just…. [Mimes holding, breathing out small breaths.] Like, I, I'm alone in the car, so who cares. And I'm, I'm telling you, ten, fifteen of those and your body starts to come back online. And I was like, ‘Poor little Pete!’ [DD: Laughs, knows where this is going.] ‘He would have loved to known that!’ He would have--
DD: Yeah, I know.
PH: --like, seven-year-old Pete would have f-ing killed to know that.
DD: But what did seven-year-old Pete do? He fawned?
PH: Seven-year-old Pete fawned; and, and he performed, you know?
DD: He was funny. He got funny.
PH: And this is maybe when I learned to be an object.
DD: [Nodding] Hm.
PH: You know what I mean? Like, there's nothing-- and again I'm putting this back to you-- it's like, if I can get everyone laughing, what is more comforting than getting…. Look, I grew up in a house where there were, there's alcohol involved; there's tension. And now I go up in clubs, and there's alcohol and there's tension. [DD laughs.] And I, and I turn them in the exact same way-- I'm not gonna say broken, but in the same way--
DD: Back to the scene of the crime.
PH: Back--! They always come back! [DD Laughs.] You and a trench coat-- [mimes smoking]-- ‘They always come back.’
DD: Yeah. [Chuckles.]
PH: We do!
DD: [Staring fondly at the horizon] ‘Look at Pete.’ [PH: Laughs.] ‘I knew you'd be back, Pete. Just a matter of time.’
PH: But it's a, it's a role play to go, like, ‘I know how to calm this dinner down, and I know how to calm the, the Miami Improv down.’
DD: How about the fear of not being funny when you know all this sh-t? How about that fear? How about the fear-- ‘cuz, I, the fear-- it’s like--
PH: What’s your take?
DD: ‘You're not gonna be a great artist if you go to the shrink.’
PH: Strongly disagree.
DD: Yeah.
PH: I'm not even going for ‘mentally well,’ I'm going for ‘straight up spiritual realization.’ And I'm like, the more I clear up my sh-t--
DD: The funnier you are.
PH: --the better I am. Yeah. What, like-- who made that idea? The Devil? You know what I mean? It's--
DD: Who made that idea? Uh.
PH: Maybe [unintelligible.]
DD: I don’t know. There’s a lot of bad shrinks out there, you know?
PH: Yeah, yeah.
DD: So, they can do some harm in that way, you know? It all depends on the practitioner. Like I, I, I really feel like bodies of knowledge… there's so many good ones out there, it just depends on whoever's teaching you. PH: Yeah.
DD: You know? And, and I don't know why I'm mentioning Scientology again because I have no interest in it and I whatever; but, but if, if you got a guy who's a great teacher and he happens to be teaching Scientology you'll get some good sh-t out of it-- [PH: Yeah] --just ‘cuz he's a great teacher. It doesn't-- whether it's Buddhism or, or, or Judaism or Christianity, if you [have] a teacher, then you're gonna learn.
PH: I completely agree. In fact-- it's so funny, I, I feel that way about your work, as well, is I like hanging out with David. I know you're playing roles-- [DD: Right, yeah.] --but sometimes I think, as a comedian-- I say this all the time-- the jokes are an excuse to be in the energy that we're creating together. [DD: Right, yeah.] And I feel that way-- I, I was watching, uh, Bucky f-ing Dent; and it's wonderful, and I'm very happy for you that your book is ,is becoming this movie.
DD: Thank you, thank you.
PH: And when you come on-- uh, I didn't know you were in it, I just threw it on. I was like, ‘Oh he directed it, he wrote it, here we are.’ And then you're the dad! [DD: Mm hm.] And this feeling-- I don't want to butter your bread too hard, but I go, ‘Oh there's that guy!’ [DD: Right.] You know what I mean? It was a familiar-- [DD: Mm.] --comforting, ‘Oh, I get to hang out with I like this… this.’
DD: ‘I like that compost heap.’
PH: Exactly!
DD: I like to put my seed in it. [Does a double take, didn’t mean it that way.]
PH: [Laughs, tilts off-screen.]
DD: [Smirks, tries not to laugh. Tries to form a clarification.]
PH: Well, I did call you David Duchovny Why Don’t You Love Me, so maybe--
DD: Fertilizing me!
PH: --that’s a fair assumption.
DD: It's fertilizing me!
PH: Well, it is! And, well--
DD: No, I think that's right. I think that's right.
PH: Yeah like a date-- Alain de Botton also said, on a date you're recogniz-- wounds are recognizing one another. [DD: Hm.] And there's something in the way that you react as an actor that resonates with me, that I go, ‘That’s authentic. I feel uncomfortable by the things he feels uncomfortable….’ I don't know! It's in the eyes, it's in the face, it's in the body. There are all these unconscious, nonverbal things that my body goes, ‘Okay, I can, I can, I can become a part of this movie!’
DD: Yeah.
PH: I, I, I see a place for me in you! [DD: Right.] Pretty cool.
DD: That's beautiful. I, I… I don't want to agree with you.
PH: [Laughs] Yeah.
DD: It would be pretty unseemly. But, uh, I get what you're saying. And I, I was just thinking about actors that I like being in their space--
PH: Yeah.
DD: You know? And sometimes-- the way it occurs to me is-- you know, as much as I don’t…. As much as I think acting is ridiculous, whatever that quote was, or, or silly--
PH: Yeah.
DD: And I’m-- [furrowed brows, emphatic] --ashamed-- [PH: Laughs.] --in some ways to be an actor…. It’s not, I’m not making a joke! [Looks down, smiling along.]
PH: No, I love it, though! The truth is funny to me, it just makes me laugh. [DD chuckles.]
DD: Um. I, I think I really like actors who seem to love acting, you know? ‘Cuz it might not be me, you know?
PH: Yeah.
DD: I, I love it on some level that's not…. John Travolta, to me, like, I just think he loves acting! I just, I watch him and I just think he's having so much fun.
PH: Yeah.
DD: And I'm like-- [grinning, excited] --‘Oh man! I love being in that space!’
PH: Yeah, me too.
DD: It's not about the acting, it’s about--
PH: That's so--
DD: --he just loves it, man! And I never felt--
PH: And so many comedians do that.
DD: He might hate it, he might hate it! But what I get is, he's, he, he loved to be on set that day, you know?
PH: Yeah.
DD: And, and I-- he's giving it to me! And now I'm feeling that love, you know? The love of what you do, you know?
PH: I agree. No, it's an inspired thing to see a person in the state of non-resistance! [DD: Laughs.] You know what I mean? This guy's not mad that they kept him on Ice in his trailer for six hours--
DD: Right! No, no, no!
PH: He’s just groovin’, he’s groovin’!
DD: And let me tell you, I will let you know when I'm resisting. [PH: Laughs.] And I will show you in the performance. [Laughs.]
PH: That is so great.
DD: I won’t let you off; and that's bad. It's bad, bad, bad.
PH: I, this is not morning radio. You're a small actor: like, you, you're, you're, a uh…. How would you describe it? It’s almost like you’re, uh…. [Pauses, concentrates, sighs.] When I say small, I, I mean you're, you're doing it with restraint. You're doing it kinda cool, you're doing it-- cool sounds wrong, but I'm trying to compliment--
DD: I know.
PH: --that you're doing less; and I'm more interested. [Laughs.]
DD: Yeah
PH: Can you tell me-- this is a very specific question-- are there times when you've gone against that, that being kind of a thing that you’re known for? [DD: Yeah.] One of the things that comforts me? Have you gone against it and made a really big move and been like, ‘I hope they don't use that take!’
DD: Oh yeah. There's certainly, there's certainly that. But there's also been, like, roles that I'll see, um, that can come my way where I go, ‘Okay, this is kind of a big swing for me.’ Um, and they, they don't really mean-- you might not even see it as different, but I go back to, like, probably like Zoolander, you know that kind of a thing--
PH: Mm hm.
DD: --where I'm playing, you know, this kind of ridiculous character. Or, or, or The TV Set: I feel like I'm a little bigger in that. Or, um, The Estate I did a couple years ago, played a really goofy, uh, funny character. Or I played Howard Cosell on The History of the World. [PH: Right, right.] I mean, it's like, I'm on there for 35 seconds; but for me it was like, ‘Yeah, well, okay I'm doing like sketch comedy kind of work,’ you know? Which I've not done. Or when I did SNL. I do enjoy it, because I like that kind of… I like that, I like tapping into that energy, which is not my natural-- [PH: Yeah.] --kind of artistic way to go with it. But I do enjoy it and I do respect it; and I, and I love it.
PH: Yeah. It's interesting when I watch myself act, 99.9% of the time I'm, I'm like, ‘I wish I had done less.’ [DD laughs.] And is-- that, did you come about your style from watching yourself-- [DD: No.] --or was it something you found in your shoes?
DD: Yeah, I found it through, through failure, really. I mean, um, when I got to L.A., I auditioned…. My, my manager, who's no longer my manager, but she used to, she used to keep track of how-- she used to tell people how many auditions I didn't get, you know?
PH: [Incredulous, laughing] What? [DD: Unintelligible.] And you fired this person?
[Both laugh.]
DD: I guess it was like her way of keeping me in line, or something. But, you know-- [teasing] --and it always seemed like a, a, too large a number. [More sober.] But there was a lot; and I'd get, you know, I'd get, uh, the feedback. You know, remember when you were always getting feedback? [PH: Mm hm.] Remember feedback?
PH: Feedback, f-ing….
DD: Feedback, what's the feedback, what's the feedback? [PH laughs.] Okay the feed, feedback’s not good. [PH again.] The feedback is not good. [More serious.] Feedback is great, the feedback was great! They're just… it's not going to be you, but the feedback is always--
PH: They’re going in another direction but they absolutely loved you.
DD: They love you. They love you.
PH: You know what sucks about that, by the way? Is, that works on me. [DD laughs.] When my agent goes, ‘They loved you,’ I'm like, ‘They loved me?’
DD: ‘I don’t--’
PH: They know just to handle you.
DD: ‘--I don't even need the job! I don't even need the job.’
PH: ‘I don't need the job, that was enough! That was enough.’
DD: It’s what you were going for-- you just wanted the love.
PH: [Nodding] That's right.
DD: Got the job.
PH: They got us dialed in.
DD: So, I get, uh ‘flat’-- or ‘movie star,’ that was one I got a lot! Like, because I was auditioning for, like, television. It’s like, ‘Oh he's a movie star.’ And I was like, ‘I can't make my rent. You know, I'm not a movie star.’
PH: Oh.
DD: ‘I’d, like, really like this TV job.’ So, I knew what I was doing was…. Because back then, there was a distinction: this is, like, 1989, 1990. There was a pretty strong distinction between TV acting and film acting.
PH: And, and X-FIles sort of changed that. NYPD Blue--
DD: Oh, a little bit, yeah. A little bit.
PH: --X-Files, yeah.
DD: Yeah. And then of course, you know, cable. [PH: Yeah, yeah.] And, and now the distinction is, is erased-- it may, maybe even be weighted the other way now, where you can--
PH: No, it--
DD: --do more stuff [inaudible.]
PH: --you can be a bigger star if you’re on a huge--
DD: Not just a bigger star; but you, the work you can do is more…. You can be more subtle, actually [PH: Yeah.] and, you know, rather than Avengers 22 or whatever, you know? Like--
PH: Right, right.
DD: It might be weighted the other way now; but then, you know, TV was, uh,-- you know, I don't want to bad mouth the shows that I love, like Star Trek or whatever-- but it was, it wasn't considered the same caliber as great film acting. Like--
PH: Right. It was a volume medium. It was like, ‘We can do a thousand of these.’
DD: Right, right.
PH: As opposed to Breaking Bad. Which is reminding me of The X-Files episode that had, uh….
DD: Yeah. That's, that's where Bryan met Vince. That's where they--
PH; And that’s-- yeah that's right. The X-Files was the beginning of Breaking Bad, I forgot about.
DD: I was, yeah.
PH: So cool.
DD: Yeah. Um. Yeah, Vince was going to choose one of those actors in that car, and it wasn't me! [PH Laughs.] It wasn't me. [Smiles, amused at PH’s amusement.] So, uh….
PH: You would have been a great Walter White, no sh-t! [DD chuckles.] You would have been a great Walter White.
DD: [Slightly shaking his head] Vince is so good. Uh, so good. [PH: Yeah.] But… so yeah, I, I would get, um, ‘flat.’ Uh. Um. ‘Flat’ was the negative; uh, ‘movie star’ was the positive. [PH: Hm.] Uh, and, um, I just knew, like, even if…. Or, ‘He's, he's doing nothing. You know, he's not doing anything.’ [DD laughs; PH: Yeah, yeah.] And uh. Even if it was like, if I thought I was being deadpan funny-- which is something I aspire to. Like, Buster Keaton is like a god to me, and stuff like that. So, um…. But I knew that I was up to something. [PH: Hm.] I knew I was doing something. And I knew, possibly, I had to work on my craft a little more so that people could see it. But I also knew that that was my natural, like, wavelength; and that was the way I was gonna do it. Like, that was my take on acting: it was going to be doing it this way.
PH: Was it because you hadn't seen it? Were you like, ‘I gotta-- I know this is real because it's me and I haven't seen it, so I'm gonna keep ringing the bell?’
DD: Yeah.
PH: It was like that?
DD: No, I didn't look at it. I, I almost got fired from, uh, one of the first movies I, I, uh, I got called The Rapture, which was a really good independent movie in like 1990. And, and, and I got sent home with dailies to like…. [Chuckles.] I don't remember how it was phrased but it was basically like, ‘You know, take a look at how bad you are--’ [PH: shocked expression] --or something like that, you know? [PH stutters, chuckles.] Um, and I invited my friend, uh Diana [Kergo?] who’s a writer; and, and I said, ‘Can you watch these with me because I, I'm not going to be able to look at it objectively, and I just need to know--’ [pause] ‘--if I should quit or what?’ [PH laughs.] I mean, no really! I was like-- [PH nods.] --it did feel good.
PH: Yeah.
DD: And, uh, we watched the dailies. And we were both like, ‘Yeah, you're….’ Your ‘fine’ is gonna sound like-- damning with faint praise, but we're both like, ‘You're, you're good! You're fine! You're, you know, you're, you're a legitimate actor. I mean, I, I buy it,’ whatever. Um. So, even when I was starting to work, there was… there was a little push back, I guess. And you know, some of it I had--
PH: Why didn't they fire you? Did you turn it up?
DD: I don't know. [PH laughs.] I don't, I don't remember why they didn’t fire me. [Laughs a little with PH.] I don't know-- it was too late.
PH: If they fired you, who is the number one call? [DD: inaudible.] Who's the, ‘If you don't get the job, they go to Ruffalo.’ Who do they go to? What, what are they doing?
DD: [Looking down, smiling] I don’t know.
PH: Who's your nemesis? [Both laugh.]
DD: Oh, at that time? [PH: Yeah.] I had it in for Billy Baldwin.
PH: Billy Baldwin was always scoopin’ ya?
DD: Yeah, he was-- you know, he was doing Backdraft. He was doing, like, these big movies. I was like, ‘F-k that guy.’ [PH laughs loudly.]
PH: But-- all right, all right. I wonder if--
DD: I wonder if--
PH: --your style-- Go ahead!
DD: My, my daughter's acting. She's twenty-four, she's doing quite well. But, you know, like, like all actors, she'll, she'll sometimes say, you know, ‘Oh, that person! That person!’ I was like, ‘Don't worry about it because it's gonna change.’ [PH: Right.] ‘It’s gonna be another new person that you're gonna hate.’ [Chuckles.]
PH: Right, right. I'm not trying to put down Bobcat Goldthwait, he's a great writer-director now; but sometimes when someone flares up in the comedy scene people will go, ‘Bobcat Goldthwait.’ [DD: Right.] Because there was a time-- again, Bob, full respect-- [DD: Yeah.] --he's a pal, I love him. But when he was the number one stand-up comedian-- [DD: Yeah.] Don't forget, these, these things change. And I could name a dozen more that, that, that flare up; and when it's happening, it seems like this is what it is. And then, when it goes away…. I just had my friend Jonathan Kite on the show. He's like, ‘I do Impressions. And it's so funny, if I do an impression of an actor who's not currently in a movie, people actually hate it!’ [DD laughs.] He's like, ‘I'm doing Giamatti again because of The Holdovers; but then if Giamatti takes a little break--’ [DD: Right.] ‘--we don't want to hear Giamatti!’ I was like, we're so fickle.
DD: Can I hear your Giamatti?
PH: My G--? Oh, he does it.
DD: Oh, he does it?
PH: [Putting on a voice] ‘Well well well!’ [DD laughs.] Isn't that good? ‘Well David Duchovny, great to see ya! Yeah, I understand!’ [Breaks off, laughs.]
DD: Yeah he's like… always at the, at the end of his breath.
PH: He's at the end of his breath, and the end of his rope. [DD laughs.] That's what, he's really-- ‘All right, yeah, yeah--’
DD: About to explode.
PH: [Continuing voice] ‘You know, I was almost Mulder.’
DD: It's that-- it's the grimace. The smile, the grimace.
PH: It is, it is.
PH: Was there a famous almost Mulder?
DD: No, I don't think. So, um….
PH: There, it wasn't like almost Will Smith or something?
DD: No, I don't think so. Um. Yeah, there were just like two of us, I think, that tested for that role as I recall. And--
PH: But you beat Billy? Billy Baldwin?
[Both chuckle.]
DD: Yeah, I mean. Billy, Billy was really, he's really good; and you know, had, had his ups and downs and everything. But, um. You know, for some reason I, I had it in my head, like, he was just, he was mowing my lawn. [PH laughs.] You know, I was like, ‘He's getting everything!’
PH: ‘Stop mowing my lawn!] So, I'm sorry I interrupted you. We were talking about how you arrived at your style; and you were talking about your daughter and, and how things changed-- that's how we went off on that tangent. And did you feel completion on the-- what did, did you say? Dry? Small? What, I don't, I don't know what we're doing. [DD: Oh, um--] But the the less is more--
DD: I don’t--
PH: --like less is more.
DD: Yeah, maybe less is more. I don't know. It's just the way I do it, um. And I'm not saying it's better than any other way, or, or or worse than any other way, or that I can't do any other style. I would need, you know, I would need, like, help and, uh, support to, to, to come at it in a different way. And I'd love to. I'd love to try, you know? But I'm always going to try to find the, the truth. And if it starts to feel like just…. I guess the way I put it is, like, if if I feel like it's just a point of view that I'm seeing and not a character-- like, sometimes I feel like when you get big or when you go for things, it's like you're almost commenting on it, you know, and not just actually--
PH: Yeah, like a boardwalk caricature. [DD: Yeah.] You're you're exaggerating it to make it--
DD: Yeah, so, so that the, the, the people who can't hear can hear. And, and that's legitimate, you know? Because they need to hear stuff, too. But-- [PH: Yeah.] --just depends on what you think your audience is.
PH: That's true. We need pop music. There's nothing wrong with it.
DD: Yes, that's right!
PH: Yeah, we need pop music. [DD: inaudible.] Pop music is actually beautiful--
DD: We need hooks.
PH: We need hooks! And you know, maybe it'll get you into something else-- [DD: Right.] --something more subtle or whatever. [DD: Yeah, right.] But like who cares. Who cares. I think that's really fun.
PH: Do you get the UFO question now that UFOs are f-ing everywhere.
DD: I, I, I do; but I, I, I just have nothing interesting to say about it.
PH: That's okay. People must-- well then let me ask you this: how do you find being David Duchovny in, in the public sphere? Like, people asking you about UFOs, people want to say this or that. Do you enjoy this life that you've built-- [PH: starts laughing] --that you've worked so hard?
DD: Yeah, um. Yeah it's funny, because I think I, I spoke earlier about being misunderstood and how painful that is. How painful that is. And I guess initially, when I was misunderstood for my character, you know, which is a, it's an understandable thing-- you know, because that's how people know me.
PH: You’re talkin’ about Mulder? [DD: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.] And when you say misunderstood, what do you mean? What--
DD: Like, they think that I'm Mulder.
PH: People, people mistaking you for Mulder, yeah? It's Robin Williams’s ‘Hey, Mork!’ [DD: Right.] He won a-- remember that story?-- he won an Academy Award, next morning someone yelled, ‘Hey Mork!’ And he was like, ‘Oh, nothing's changed.’
DD: [Smiling] Right, right. So…. But in like the heyday of it-- and it's not just…. You know, most people don't think that I'm Mulder but they'll, they'll call me that. Or, or they'll ask me questions about UFOs or, or, or think that, that I'm interested in it. So, at, at first it was frustrating because the ego on me was like, ‘I think I'm way more interesting than that f-ing guy!’ [PH: Mm hm, mm hm.] Ask me a question!’
PH: Yeah, yeah.
DD: Ask me what I think about things that I'm interested in, you know? [PH: Right, right.] But that's just the ego and, and immaturity. And eventually, eventually I just come-- you know, and it's not it's not 100%. It's, it's not always… like, I'm not always great at it. But eventually, I just come to 100% gratitude of like, ‘Holy sh-t!’ You know? Like, it meant something to people. It still means something to people, they want to talk about it. [PH: Yeah.] I, I spent a long time and a lot of energy and a lot of my lifeforce doing it, why not honor it and say, ‘Okay let's-- we can have that discussion.’
PH: Yeah. You know those Tom Cruz stories where people say ‘Show me the money’ and he'll just say it right back to them? [DD: Right.] I always take such-- I don't know I do find it inspiring, that he's not like, ‘Come on man.’ You know what I mean? Like, look there's a way to do that that's fake-- [DD: Right.] --that you're just kind of, like, hitting the ball back because that's the quickest way out. But I think he's doing it in really like a, ‘I know! I was Jerry Macguire, can you f-ing believe it? That was crazy!’ I think it's you and Travolta: I'm like, ‘Look, this person's actually found a way--’ And I'm not in, in the same sphere as you guys; but, like, if someone…. If someone comes up to me now and they say something-- and that happens to me, you know, most days: one time someone will say something-- I really try to take a moment to look at them and say, ‘That makes my day.’ [DD: Right.] And, and, and convert it-- as I just saw you do it-- into gratitude. Not a bump of ego-- [DD: Right, right.] --‘Eh, I'm cool,’ but like holy sh-t, man! Life is hard, life is long, life is lonely. And, like, you aren't Mulder and you don't care about UFOs--
DD: [Cuts in smiling] I don’t have to prove it to that person, you know?
PH: That's right! Isn't it-- this is what I'm hearing you say-- isn't it kind of magical and lovely that we had any exchange? [DD: Yeah.] We're here on the planet together, and that meant something to you, and that-- the, I think the best thing you can get from that is gratitude. And that's that's what I heard you say.
DD: Yeah. And I, I run into it, like, if I, if I'm signing books or if I'm playing music, you know? And, and, you know I don't fool myself that people are interested in-- at least at first-- in my books or my music, because they, they know me as an actor. And they'll want me to…. Like, I will get prickly, like, if they want me to sign this book that was created out of Californication called, uh…. I forget it. It’s a fake novel written-- [puts up quotation marks] --by Hank Moody, and they want me to sign it. And I'll get, I'll get a little, like, ‘But I didn't write it. I'm not sure, like-- do you know what's going on here?’ [PH laughs.] Like, I, I've never read it, I don't, I don't know what it is I'm signing.
PH: That's your Larry Bird-- who is it Dr. J? We, they're choking each other on the court-- [DD: Yeah, yeah.] --and Larry won't sign it? That's your chokes--
DD: Oh, Larry won't sign it? [Smiles.]
PH: There's a lot of things that people have a boundary-- and I'm not your therapist, but I'm like, ‘That's a fine boundary. You don't want to--’
DD: I, I didn't write it! It's like, don't, I won't sign somebody else's book, either. Like, why would I sign somebody else's book? [PH: Yeah.] And, um. I do-- it's so hard to even break even as a music act when you're touring these days. Post-COVID and with gas prices up, it's really a difficult time to…. As I say, and I, I, I just would like to break even. And so, what I have to do is, like, meet and greets before a concert, you know, where I, I will sign and take a picture. And this is how-- I'm not making money, this is how we break even, you know? Otherwise forget it!
PH: This is the Thirty Seconds to Mars strategy. [DD intrigued.] It's like, it's a Jared Leto meet and greet and a concert. I'm not putting down either group, your music or his music. Obviously I'm not.
DD: Oh, but to be fair, I mean…. Pete, there are big bands now that are doing meet and greets! [PH: Of course!] It’s bad-- [breaks off, laughs] --it’s hard out there!
PH: It is hard out there. When I see Weezer sharing a bill with Green Day, my first thought is-- actually my first thought is that's sounds really fun. [DD laughs.] And I, and I'm glad they're, they're getting to do it together. And then, and then someone else was like, ‘It's cuz even big bands--’ [DD: Yep.] ‘--like, won't sell out a stadium anymore.’ [DD: Right.] Like, huge, like, already rang the bell--
DD: Yeah, yeah, right.
PH: --already got the trophy. And it's like-- so they, they pair them up. [DD: Right.] And you don't have to tell me about selling tickets, I know exactly how it goes.
DD: So, so, so I'll do these meet and greets; and people have spent money and now they want a picture. And they'll sometimes they'll want to direct it, you know? [PH: Laughs.] They'll be like, ‘Can, can we go back to back like with guns,’-- [poses onscreen] --you know, and stuff like that. [PH: Yeah.] Or you act like you're scared of an alien or something like that. [PH: Laughs.] And, you know [inaudible]--
PH: Can I ask you-- can I ask you--
DD: [Inaudible]
PH: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, maybe you're not. But, you know what? At least your persona-- look at my big, dumb, open, goofy face! I feel like a nice flat Duchovny ‘no’ is still kind of fun.
DD: I, I've said like, ‘No thanks. No thanks.’
PH: But I, I like ‘no thanks!’
DD: Yeah. I, I, I…. Well, here's, here's-- I, I'll tell you it quickly. [PH: Yeah.] I, I hear uh, uh-- this guy comes for a meet and greet; and he's got a little Porsche, like from Californation, and he's got a tiny little hammer. And he wants me to break the headlight because in the show I always had a broken headlight on my Porsche. So, this is like-- and that's totally fine, you know. And I thought, ‘This is kind of what people do at these meet and greets is,’ you know. And then I realized, you know-- I'm playing in, in Eastern Europe and in countries where I've not been. They haven't seen me ever; and this is the time-- you know, they've grown up with my shows or whatever. And it's kind of a, it's a moment, you know? And like, I know that I'm tired or I've got a show to do later; but f-- me, I, I should show up and be grateful for that. Um.
DD: And that gets back to the addition thing, because I was in a, I was in a 12 Step meeting; and, uh, I had to go to the Golden Globes. And it was right after all, all that notoriety, um, about going away to rehab. And I was scared of the red carpet because I, I didn't want people to ask me questions like you. [PH chuckles.] And, and, uh…. [Looks down, looks away.] Because I didn't know what to say! [PH: Yeah.] And, uh. Certainly wasn't any of their business. And my kids were young; and my, my, my, my wife was was hurting, you know? And I was like, [frustrated] ‘I'm not gonna f-ing do a 5 second--’ [PH: Right.] ‘--something! Like….
PH: Yeah, a blurb.
DD: [Whatever! I don't have a blurb on it! I'm in the, I'm in the middle of it! I don't know what's going on. Bomb exploded. I'm standing in rubble, and now you're asking me, ‘How--’ [chuckles.]
PH: Yeah.
DD: ‘--how's the rubble?’ [Both chuckle.] ‘How's the rubble doing?’
PH: ‘Who dressed you?’ ‘Rubble.’
DD: Still smoking. [PH chuckles.] So, um, I was kind of complaining, uh… or just expressing my confusion in this meeting about, ‘Well, I don't know, I don't know how to be!’ Because I, I knew how to be before that. I knew how to, I knew how to do the thing. I knew how to do the carpet, I knew how to make the joke. I knew how to be easy. I knew how to be winning. I knew how to do it; and all of a sudden, I didn't know how to do it. And uh, this guy goes, ‘Why don't you just be grateful that you're there?’
PH: Hm.
DD: And I was like-- [long pause: past self thinking] ‘Oh. I could try that.’ [Leans closer with a self-deprecating smirk.] ‘Never tried gratitude before.’ [Chuckles.]
PH: Wow.
DD: So, what I did was, I was like, ‘Okay, that's my master plan. It’s, it's all I'm gonna do.’ Like, ‘I'm only going to be grateful.’ So, I get like Entertainment Tonight or whatever-- you know, one of those silly shows. And like, ‘Oh, David, tough year, tough year, huh? Hm, yeah. How's, how's, uh, how's the family? How's, how's, how's, how's Tea?’
PH: [Starts to crack] Your face….
DD: And I, and I go, ‘Hey, thank you for asking. I'm really, it's really nice that you care; and I, I really appreciate your concern. It's not something I'm talking about right now; but I really am, I'm really so thankful that you, that you asked.’ And I watch this guy's face go from, like-- [PH: jaw drops] --’Am I poking a bear?’ to ‘I'm a really good person.’
PH: [Awed] Wow.
DD: ‘I'm an excellent person!’
PH: Wait you did Fawn. That's Fawn! [DD laughs.] Fight, Flight, Freeze, Fawn! You Fawn-ed the motherf-er!
DD: I just, I just gratitude-ed him. [PH: Yeah!] And I realized it was also true: you know, in a perverse way, there was care. Uh, you know.
PH: You found the care. Yeah, I love that you shared that! And that strategy of reframing even something that is an attack.
DD: Which was-- yeah, right, it was an attack.
PH: It's worse than intrusive. It, it's, it's, you know, they're looking for-- [DD: Right.] --money. Blood for money. [DD: Yeah.] Like, ‘This’ll-- more eyeballs, more ads, more money.’ [DD: Right.] Off your hurt. But to, to find what's behind-- I guess the humanity behind it? And you're-- this is what you did: you imposed humanity.
DD: Yeah.
PH: You pushed their humanity back into them.
DD: And you can always do that. You can always do that in any situation. And I think, it's good for me to remind myself that it's an option to be grateful. It's a, it's always a good option.
PH: I completely agree.
DD: I don't think I've ever gone, ‘Sh-t, I wish I hadn’t been so f-ing grateful!’
PH: No. And they say you can't feel afraid and grateful at the same time. You know, it's funny with that What's Next disease that we all have. I think all… maybe all people, I don't know, but certainly all creatives that I know are kind of thinking about the next thing. And one of the things-- speaking of gratitude-- that I do in the morning is a gratitude practice where you think of three moments, for one minute each-- [DD: Hm.] --from your life that you can be grateful for. [DD: Hm.] And it's better-- to me, it's better than writing it down. You put on some music and you just do it. And here's the hope that I'm trying to share with you is: even if you weren't enjoying it when you did it, which is certainly the case for me-- [DD: Sure.] --when I was on the set of shows I made, you can go back and relive it-- [DD: Yeah.] --from this perspective; and go, like, ‘Oh my. It's you; and, and you're doing Californication--’ [DD: Right.] ‘--and oh! Ah! We--’ It doesn't even have to be a big moment. In fact, it often isn't. [DD: Right.] It's not like I nailed that take or did that big moment or there was a big star! Who cares! You were just there.
DD: That’s the funny, that's the funny thing is, like, if, if I'm watching-- by mistake, I don't do it on purpose-- if I, if I'm flipping channels and I, I see X Files come on-- usually X-Files ‘cuz Californication doesn't really play like X-Files does, but…. And I, and a show will come on that I don't remember shooting but I'll remember what I had for lunch that day on set-- [PH nods.] --or, you know, I'll remember that week. I don't remember the plot. I can't, I can't-- like, ‘How did I memorize those lines? I don't remember.’ [PH: Laughs] Those lines are just foreign to me. But I'll have, like, little flashes of just human laughter, connection, friends that I was hanging out with, what I was doing around that time in my life-- even very specifically, almost to that episode that I don't remember. But I remember shooting it and being in it, as you say, and the process of it. And you talked about, like, what, What Next-ism or whatever you called it. What’s Next-ism?
PH: What’s Next disease. That's what you called it. [DD laughs.] I heard you call it on your Vanity Fair thing.
DD: Oh, I did?
PH: Yeah, you call-- ‘I have something called What's Next disease.’
DD: [Self-deprecatingly, smiling] I’m smart, I'm so smart.
PH: Yeah, you're great.
DD: I'm grateful for that. [PH laughs.] Um. I, I, I would say that…. I don't have-- I. I still have it a little bit, but I'm really aware that the only thing that cuts deeply is the process, you know? Like, I can be proud of the finished product. Sure, that's a nice feeling. But the process of the, the all the-- you know, we're all just trying to make the show or the movie or the whatever together. We're just doing our best trying to do this thing; and there's just something beautiful about that process and the flow sometimes. ‘Oh, well, yeah, there was one scene that just felt like it was from God, you know?’ Like, like God just, like, was with me.’
PH: [Begins talking] Yes-- sorry, keep going.
DD: Yeah, that's it. And so, it's just really, it's really just a…. I guess it's almost a cliche now, but just really embracing that the all of life is is just process and not and not result.
PH: I completely agree. And that's what I couldn't wait to tell you. It's written on-- a lot of things are written on my mirror. One of them is, ‘Everything is an excuse to love,’ which sounds like a cliche; but when you get--
DD: No, it doesn't. It doesn't sound like a cliche to me.
PH: I'm glad! I'm worried that the word love is ruined. Love to me is the recognition that you and I have a, a shared being. That in our essence, we're exactly the same. And when human beings struggle in the same direction, uh…. There's, there's great stories of-- they're not great in every way, but…. You know, World War II London is being bombed and if you interview the people that lived there at that time they were like--
DD: Livin’ there right now.
PH: What's that?
DD: [Smiling] I'm in London right now.
PH: Are you really? [DD: Yeah.] Well, you know you go and see that the roundabouts with the lions and there's still holes in them, you know? [DD: Right, yeah.] You see the bombs that dropped-- The people at that time said it was the happiest time of their life-- [DD nods] --and when they look at that psychologically, they're like, ‘Human beings struggling in the same direction--’ [DD: Hm.] ‘--reach a level of fulfillment that nothing else can do.’ And I know it's, it's crazy. Look, I'll, I'll equate or, or liken that to a lot of things. Not just acting but any project. [DD: Yeah, right, yeah.] It could be a high school project, a science project. It doesn't matter how, how fleeting--
DD: Look at Waiting for Guffman.
PH: What's that?
DD: Look at Waiting for Guffman.
PH: That's exactly what Waiting for Guffman is about! [Unintelligible, either ‘you thought it was about’ or ‘youthful’?]--
DD: But the love. They have the love.
PH: That's right. And--
DD: That’s what the movie-- or Best in Show. All his movies are about….
PH: And you did Larry Sanders and, and Gary…. Uh, when he-- Gary Shandling when he did the pod-- I had heard him say it before, though-- he said that show was about people who love each other but show business gets in the way. [DD chuckles.] And I would go farther and say this podcast is an excuse to love each other. This, this, this day, the every moment is just an excuse to find some connection. And that's why it's so offensive when we blow that and actually make more, uh, derisiveness or or whatever. More division.
DD: Yeah. I, I, I like the phrase… I like the, I like excuse in the phrase. That's what I, that's why I like it. [PH: Excuse. Right.] Because that, that surprises me. [PH: Yes.] That makes it not a cliche to me.
PH: Oh, I'm so glad. Yeah, no, it's like, it's what we were saying about performing, too: it's, it's an excuse to hang out in this energy. [DD: Yeah.] You thought you came to hear my new material, we're actually trying to create a little, a little bubble together. [DD: Right.]
PH: Let's… you mentioned at the top-- we always end the show by talking a little bit about spirituality. I'm getting the sense that you, you're interested in that-- [DD: Hm.] --and have some take on it. So, I couldn't be more interested is all I'll say. What, if there have been things that you found-- uh, wait a minute! You are kind of like a Richard Gear type. Are you a Buddhist?
[Both laugh.]
DD: Well, do you know my-- you know what my name means? ‘Duchovny’ means ‘spiritual.’
PH: Really?
DD: Actually means-- ‘dukh’ is ‘spirit’ or ‘ghost.’ Or ‘teacher’ or ‘rabbi,’ as my grandmother would say. And ‘ovny’ is like, uh, adjectival ending. Like spiritual or ghostlike or ‘rabbi-like.’
PH: Wow.
DD: Um.
PH: So, it's right there in your name.
DD: It's in my name. I can't hide from it. Am I spiritual? Yeah, I'm not… I, I'm not, uh, part of any, uh, group or, or named thing. But that's, it's all we've been talking about.
PH: I agree.
DD: That's, that's all we've been talking about. And that's, when you, when you talk about love, that, that's the synonym for God. I mean, that's the most use synonym for God: God is love. I mean, it's the same thing. And it, or…. You know the Buddhists have a really interesting relationship to it because, you know, attachment and detachment: how can you, how can you be attached to something that's going to die? It's so painful. That's why life is suffering, you know? That's why they acknowledge that in the first Noble Truth: life is suffering. Well, because we're, we're these infinite beings doomed to a finite existence. Very painful, very heartbreaking. If you think about it too much, which you do on some level all the time…. [PH: Mm hm.] And, um. So, it's this constant struggle between attachment and detachment. And with acting, and with making art, you can attach so intensely to something. And you know you're going to detach eventually: you know, you know the truth, that it's just a, a fleeting attachment to this job, or this joke, or this book, or this song, or this performance. But the beauty of it is, is really attaching to it even so. Even so. [PH: Right.] Even so, you go into the flow and you give yourself up to it. Even so, you, you know it's going to break your heart when you have to leave it-- you know, when you detach from it. So--
PH: Risk. You risk love. [DD: Yeah, it’s all about--] And that’s why we love underdog stories because we’re all essentially underdogs. It's, it's, uh, maybe not high art--
DD: That's what Bucky F-ing Dent is about, when he says, you know, ‘I got scared of losing you and I couldn't attach again.’ [PH: Right.] ‘Because I, I realized that being attached to you was too painful.’ [PH: Yeah.] ‘That it would kill me if you died.’ [PH: Yep.] And that's, we're like that, too, you know? We have to, we have to mature past that point where we're too scared to attach, you know? ‘Cuz it is going to be painful.
PH: I agree I, I've actually had moments-- I don't know if I can articulate it now, but I've had moments of interconnected feeling. [DD: Hm.] Like a, like a epiphany moment where I'm like, ‘Oh my--’
DD: Ketamine. It’s ketamine, isn’t it?
PH: Well, yeah, yeah, it might. [DD laughs.] No, this one wasn't ketamine. But it's similar to ketamine; and, and when it happens and you're just in the back of a car-- that's where I was-- I was, I think I was being driven somewhere and just looking out the window. And I thought, like, ‘Oh my, the most hate-filled people are, are too scared to love!’ If there's a group that's being murdered or, or oppressed, you other them. And that's horrible! And then I was like, ‘But really under underneath it--’ Like you on the red carpet: there's love, there's a secret love that it's too painful for you to risk. That's my brother. [DD: Hm.] That-- or one level further, that's me. [DD: Hm.] That's not, that's not another.
DD: [Inaudible; sound like, ‘That’s a person’s Shadow.’]
PH: What's that?
DD: That's my Shadow. That's, that's the me that I, that I, that I'm not going to face. Or that I, I wish out [motions with hand outward.]
PH: That's right. And, and then as, as long-- you give them another name, you make all these excuses a different story; and then it's okay that they're dying or, or they're being oppressed or they're this or they're that. And, and Ramdas talks about how costly it is to love: he says the whole point is to keep your heart open in hell. [DD: Hm.] And I, that's a very interesting idea. [DD: Yeah.] And that's sort of what we're here to do. You could bring Jesus into it: it's like, look at what they did to Jesus, and the whole thing is keeping his heart open in Hell.
Is…. Again, Richard Roy says, ‘The first forgiveness--’, we talk all about the forgiveness of Christianity, because the first forgiveness is to forgive reality. Is, is to forgive-- just look at the nightmare! [DD: Yeah.] And then to find your… you could say your true self in the midst of that nightmare. Because of the nightmare you might find your true self.
DD: How do you think Jesus got those abs?
PH: I mean, carpentry was actually different back then.
DD: It was, it was the manual labor, huh? [PH: Yeah, it was.] Swinging that hammer.
PH: I had a, a youth pastor that was like, ‘It was more like iron work!’ [DD laughs.] Because he wanted to make Jesus cooler. I was like, ‘All right, buddy.’
DD: [Inaudible, possible ‘Jesus was in--’.] Flashdance. [PH laughs.] He was like a welder.
PH: I mean, sexy Jesus-- we all have to make our peace with sexy Jesus.
DD: It brings people into the pews. Are you kidding me?
PH: You got to give the people what they want.
DD: [Shrugs] Yeah. It's rock and roll. I mean--
PH: Son of [God], look at this guy.
DD: [Inaudible] was the first rock and roll. They had, they had electric music-- they had the organ. That was a party. [PH: You’re absolutely right.] Can you imagine being just a regular person: you've never heard of f-ing electric guitar, you've never heard a big drum set; you walk into a church, and they hit you with that organ?
PH: Yeah.
DD: You're gonna see God.
PH: That's right, that's right.
DD: They hit you with the organ; they, they blow incense in your face-- [PH: Yep.] --they give you a little wine; they give you a little snack. Of course you're gonna come back!
PH: And if you read The Immortality Key by my pal Brian Mirescu, that-- he's hinting that the wine might have been a little [winks, implied it was spiked] back in the day.
DD: What was in it? [PH: The original--] Ketamine?
PH: The original eucharist might have been like ketamine, might have been like--
DD: Oh, really? They dosed it?
PH: He thought-- he makes a very, deeply academic…. Brian's never done a psychedelic in his life.
DD: Square.
PH: He's, and I say this with all love and respect, he's exactly who you want to write this book. He's, he's pretty square. [DD: Yeah.] And he's, like, a real life Indiana Jones. And he's like, ‘There's a dionescian-- [DD: Mm hm.] ‘--thing going on here.’ And anybody that read the New Testament at that time would have known they were talking about psychedelic, uh--
DD: Really?
PH: Eleusis, the Greek, the, the continuation of--
DD: Eleusinian?
PH: Yeah, yeah. [DD: inaudible.] The ‘Die before you die.’ [Yeah. Yeah, yeah.] Have you done psychedelics?
DD: Uh huh, yeah. I haven't done the new-- I haven't done the ketamine, I haven’t done the ayahuasca. But back in the day, I did. I, I tripped.
PH: Yeah. Did that, was that impact-- did that have an impact? This is a--
DD: Yeah.
PH: --leading question, but I'm curious if it informed your spiritual--
DD: Well, you, you get that knowledge. you know. You get the knowledge that we're all one and that-- and I remember specifically, I was tripping with my buddy and we were walking down New, in, in New York and--
PH: Oh, wow.
DD: Yeah. And I started, like, responding to other people's conversations because I was convinced that we were all in one conversation, you know?
PH: Yes! Yes! That is psychedelics in, in, in one line. That's exactly what it is!
DD: All the walls came down. I realized that we were just talking, everybody was talking to each other, you know? It was so loud, I could just hear us, like, chattering monkeys in the jungle. [PH: Yes, yes.] We were just chattering, chattering because we were terrified and we just wanted to keep each other company.We're not going to die or get hurt. And I was just like, ‘Oh, I’ll talk to you for a minute.’ And then, ‘Oh, I heard a word over here I want to respond to.’ And, and it's true. Embarrassing, but, um. You know, just holding on to those uh revelations are the hard part.
PH: That's right. Leaving Church but keeping church in your heart. [DD: Yeah.] That's the, that's the whole game. You reminded me: I was in Amsterdam and I took some mushrooms; and there were these-- is there a funnier language to hear other than Dutch when you're tripping? [DD laughs.] It was so funny to me. And these two young women were having a picnic, and I was lying on the grass next to them. And they're kind of-- you know, I'm not going to do an impression of Dutch, but they're having this sort of--
DD: You don't want them, you don’t want them coming for you.
PH: No, not the Dutch. [Both laugh.] I'm not getting taken down for a silly Dutch attempt. But it, it sounded very funny to me because I was like, ‘Wow there's another language! That's so crazy.’ Because separation seems so funny. And they're unpacking their lunch; and I, and I remember thinking, ‘These women have no idea that I'm at the bottom of their cooler.’ [DD laughs hard.] ‘Like, it's me!’ They're going to-- they're moving the bagels and the bananas and they're going to find me laying at the bottom of their cooler. And even though that's absurd, it was like, ‘I am your lunch. And I am you, and I'm your language--’ [DD: Yeah.] --and, and, it’s--
DD: You’re Jesus: I am the body and the blood.
PH: Exactly. You’re, what--
DD: You’re Jesus.
PH: There's a great Ramana Maharshi quote where he's dying and they-- and I, I think about it all the time-- and they go, ‘Don't leave us.’ His devotees are like, ‘Don't leave us.’ And he says, ‘Don't be silly-- where could I go?’ [DD laughs.] And that's exactly….
DD: Right.
PH: I, I don't think you'll find a more refined summation of it. Where, where…? Like…. [DD: Yeah.] I don't know if-- there's a chance this might be interesting to you, but I think the whole thing is when you have a thought and then it goes away. From where did it come, and where did it go? And you notice that there's a consistent field-- like the screen in a movie, this is Rupert Spira-- [DD: Hm.] --things appear on the screen and they disappear; but what remained was the screen. [DD: Mm hm.] And, and he would say, ‘We are like conscious screens-- [DD: Mm hm.] --watching ourselves.’ And that's great, fine, fun thought experiment. But when you're having that hard day-- [DD: Yeah.] --or you're on a long road trip and you're bored and you start going, like, ‘Let's, let's experientially investigate if that's real.’ I don't think there's a better game in town than to just step away from David and step into the the original name of God: I AM. Just, what do you mean when you say ‘I?’
DD: Right. I I've had the experience with writing songs-- just like, I know that there's a song in this room right now. I'm gonna be too lazy to go write it. I'm not going to pick up my guitar and write it. But I know every time I pick up my guitar, I, I can open myself up to a song-- and it's gonna be different if I tried today or if I tried tomorrow-- [PH: Wow.] --or the next. And you know, I'm not ,I'm not making any great claims for my songs-- they're not coming from God or whatever; but they are coming from a moment, you know, that is not ever going to exist again.
PH: And what, what a good name for God: a moment that's never going to exist again.
[Both laugh.]
PH: I mean like this reminds me of the Joan of Arc quote where they say, ‘You say you talk to God, you talk to him in your head.’ And Joan of Arc said, ‘Where else would I talk to him?’ [DD chuckles.] And that's a person, to me, that understands the shared nature of consciousness. Meaning, there's only one I AM. there's only one-- there's only one light and we're all…. Sometimes, you know when somebody, uh, some, some…. Our dog died and I'm explaining it to my daughter: it's like, it's like the ocean is the great life and we're all just cups of water, and then you pour it back. We're all-- or an image that I actually did have on ketamine was an octopus, and he's doing a puppet show for himself. [DD laughs.] But here's the key: he's a joyful octopus.
DD: Sure.
PH: He's smiling. It's for his-- you said we chatter. You know how science doesn't know why birds do the pre-dawn chorus? Like, I, I like getting up early in the morning-- [DD: Sure.] --and I hear the birds starting to chirp [DD: Right.] --because the sun's gonna come up. And they thought it was mating, it turns out it's not mating. There's no reason for it. And I was like, ‘Or it's the same f-ing thing: we chirp because we're here.’
DD: They’re just being grateful.
PH: Yes! And I'm just letting you know, David--
DD: I'm here.
PH: You…. I love when you said we've been talking about God the whole time ‘cuz that's exactly what this, what, what I'm going for in my life. Is, we don't have to talk about these things directly. We don't have to say, ‘I love you, I see you, it's, it's wonderful to share this moment with you.’ That's just what's happening. [DD: Right.] We're singing before the the sun comes up-- [DD: Right.] --because what's the alternative? [Laughs.] Sorry.
DD: It’s all right. Clear--
PH: I’m getting, I'm getting all, uh-- now I'm [unintelligible, possibly ‘flaring up--’]
DD: Clearly you don't have any peacocks in your neighborhood, because you'd want to kill them. You'd want to kill them.
PH: No peacocks. No peacocks. Why are you in London, and then we'll get you out of here.
DD: Doin’ an Amazon show called Malice. Uh, I got another two weeks here. And then I'm actually gonna go to Greece to finish it up; and I've never been to Greece, so I'm really looking forward to that. I, that's the cradle of a Western civilization and I couldn't be happier to, to go check it out for the first time in my life.
PH: It'd be a great time to read The Immortality Key. It was, it would be a great--
DD: [Looking around] The Immortal--
PH: Brian Muraresku, The Immortality Key.
DD: [Inaudible, possibly ‘I’ve heard of it’ or ‘Where is it?’]
PH: Because you'll be able to go-- it says, uh, ‘If you die before you die, you won't die when you die.’ Is-- [DD: Right.] --is the whole thing. And you could go to the temple where they, where it says that.
DD: And now let me ask you, that-- a couple of times, there's been a thumbs up on the screen.
PH: Yeah, that's a mistake. Look. [Puts hand up, extends thumb. Editor cut off screen reaction.]
DD: What is that?
PH: It's just it's a Zoom thing.
DD: It’s a bubble!
PH: It's a Zoom thing. I thought it was Robin being like, ‘I love that!’
DD: I thought it was Robin Leventhal-- I thought it was Robin Leventhal.
PH: It wasn’t Robin Leventhal. It wasn’t Robin Leventhal.
DD: ‘Cuz here's what I thought: ‘It's only happening when Pete's talking. I don't like it so much.’
PH: Well, do a thumbs up. [DD complies, moves it closer to the camera.] Yeah, back it up a little bit, get it in frame. [DD complies, still no animation.] Huh. It must be my setting. [DD laughs.] Don't do that-- [thumbs up] too much. [Both laugh.]
PH: Um, let's, let's, let's get you out of here. The, the last question that I love to ask, um-- and I really have enjoyed this very, very much. Thank you.
DD: So have I against, against my will. [PH laughs.]
PH: This, you were coerced?
DD: Not coerced. It’s just Bucky F-ing Dent, you know, it’s a small movie. There’s there’s no money behind PNA[?] So it’s just, like, I've got to go everywhere I can go and, and-- [PH: Yeah.] --and talk. And, like, this is the form now. And it's intense! I mean, like, you're good at what you do and we had an intense conversation. It's a lot.
PH: Yeah.
DD: It's not, it's not nothing. it's not nothing. [PH: It’s not nothing.] My, my aim is to sell my movie. I want people to see it, that's what I want more than anything. That's kinda, it's kinda bullsh-t because we're just having a conversation; but underneath it is, like, I'm trying to do right by something that I love, as well. So….
PH: Yeah.
DD: It's a little split. It's a little split.
PH: No, you're, you're right to call it out. It, it just is. It's kind of what's happening, I suppose. But for what it's worth, you seem like a very self-assured person. I thought the movie was wonderful, and I was very happy for you that it came together.
DD: Thanks. Thanks.
PH: I, I did have one-- do you want a, a Bucky Dent question? Was, I was like, are you Danny? Are you the dad?
DD: Oh, uh. I'm more the, I'm more the son. I mean, I actually I wrote it a while ago. [PH: Yeah.] And I was, I wrote it for myself to play the son. But then I just got too old, um. And, uh. I never thought about playing the dad. And the dad is nothing like my dad. I realized the dad's more like my mom. I think I'm playing my mom in that mode.
PH: Wow. You're back to, uh, you know, gender swapping-- your first role.
DD; That's right.
PH: And here you are. Well, I, I… you can't--
DD: What was your last question?
PH: Yeah, yeah, sorry--
DD: Oh, no!
PH: I was just gonna compliment the movie again.
DD: It’s okay.
PH: I just thought it was wonderful-- [DD: Thank you.] --and people should definitely go check it out. My last question is can you think of a time in your life when you laughed really, really, really, really hard.
DD: Oh….
PH: And it doesn't have to be a good story, but if tears are streaming down your face-- [DD: Yes.] --or you're falling to the ground. Maybe you're a kid. Maybe someone farted. Maybe it's in a situation--
DD: Well, it’s--
PH: --where you're not supposed to laugh.
DD: It… well, it's, it's that fart scene in the movie.
PH: [Laughs.] No, way.
DD: It really is because, uh…. Well, there's two parts to it. Uh, when, when we were editing it, I had this wonderful editor named Jamie Nelson, and she was, she's such a genius. And…. But she was like, ‘Ah, you know. Fart scenes. I don't know. We'll screen it, you know; but I, I, I feel like you're going to want to cut it.’ And, and I was like, ‘It's just because we haven't found the right farts,’ you know? [PH: Laughs.] ‘We've really got--’ Because the farts aren't, they weren't killing me yet. [PP: Yeah.] And so, I have a Tesla-- and do you know the Tesla fart--
PH: Oh, yeah. My daughter loves the farts.
DD: Right. So, I was like, ‘My car farts are really good.’ So, we went out with my phone; I recorded the Tesla farts on my phone; and we put it in the movie. And then I cried. And then we went to, we went to--
PH: Which one was it? Do you remember?
DD: There's a few of ‘em. I used [inaudible]--
PH: You used a couple of them. Those are the Tesla farts
DD: They're all Tesla farts. [PH: Wow.] And, uh. And, and I, we get to the screening; and that scene plays. And it's just-- [gestures broadly] --huge laughter. Like, you don't even hear the farts because people are laughing so hard. And Jamie turned to me and she goes, ‘I guess it stays in.’ I was like, ‘Yeah, yeah.’ And, but I…. I'm stupid. I mean, I-- fart stuff I'll cry. I'll cry at that, most times. And my son, he loves that scene. He's 21 now; but he's like, ‘Can you just send me that scene?’ [Laughs] He just wants to watch the scene.
PH: Oh, I'm happy for you man. Your biggest laugh is in the movie-- [DD: Yeah.] --that you're, you're out sharing-- [DD: Yep.] --with the world. Happy for you.
DD: And it's just farts.
PH: And it's just farts. It’s okay there's a lot of gra-- the, the, the--
DD: ‘Cuz we all share ‘em, you know?
PH: The naked hug, uh, really got me. [DD nods.]
PH: Thank you so much for doing this David. You're, you're, you're a real, uh…. It seems pandering to say ‘mensch,’ but you're a mensch; and I enjoy you.
DD: I, I, well…. I like, I, I appreciate that terminology very much. [PH laughs] I will Fawn it back to you. [PH: indecipherable] --with gratitude.
PH: Thank you very much. We have the guests say ‘Keep it crispy.’ It's how we have a sense of closure here at the end. Would you grace us with a ‘Keep it crispy?’
DD: Pete? Keep it crispy.
PH: You keep it crispy.
DD: No, you keep it crispy.
PH: All right.
DD: You are keepin’ it crispy. That’s what you’re doin’. What does that mean? What did I just say?
PH: We've been keeping it crispy this whole time. This, this has been crisp.
