MARVEL's The Punisher || s02e11 The Abyss
“That’s what I do” / “That’s what you do.”
Frank kills people. That’s what he does. But he is going to kill so that others can live. He is going to kill to save those who cannot defend themselves. He is The Punisher, extolling justice as he sees fit—-but the flip side of Punishing is always about protecting. Protecting anyone undeserving from harm. Protecting others from not going through what he went through.
Karen gets people killed. We can argue about how much things are her fault or if the blame lies entirely with the actual killers, but Karen definitely still blames herself. Over and over again she is the one left saying “it’s my fault.” Karen is followed around by a pile of bodies on her conscience and it just keeps growing. Kevin. Danny Fisher. Ben Urich. Jerry the marine, killed after speaking up for her. The Anvil security guards at the hotel. Jasper Evans and 3 co workers at the Bulletin. Father Lantom. And now Foggy. Dear God, Foggy.
Death follows everywhere Karen Page goes.
And let’s be clear, I am NOT saying Karen IS the one responsible for every single one of these. But these deaths still haunt her. Every single one. Even when her intentions is just to do the right thing, to seek the truth, to bring justice, it always goes wrong and people always die.
It has always bugged the hell out of me when Frank says “That’s my life. You wanna be a part of that?” and Karen turns away in frustration and has no response. I want her to shove it back in face and yell “That’s already my life!”
No, Karen isn’t pulling the trigger but people around her keep dying. She is out here trying to do more harm than good, and yet, it keeps happening— until it fucking breaks her. People get shot, stabbed, executed right next to her, yet she survives. Death never touches her. If Frank is like Hades, a God of Death, taking lives to the underworld, Karen is its Queen, his Persephone, perhaps unwillingly plunged into his world, but once there surpringly finding herself most understood. Deborah Ann Woll has spoken about if Karen ever opened up to Frank about her dark history, he would be the one who could truly understand her. I wish one day we could actually get that conversation on screen.
In my head canons at least, this is the real reason Karen moved to San Francisco. Not to run. Not to start over. Not even because she was hurt by Matt for shutting her out. But because staying near him and anyone else she care about…. Is going to get them killed. She is the liability. I don’t know what she was “busy” doing in SF (and from a comment of Deb’s about having her own ideas about what Karen was doing out there… so it sounds like the show isn’t even going to address it…. arg!), but I picture her just keeping her head down. Matt was off forging his robot-life with Murdock and McDuffie and Heather, going through the motions and trying to act “normal,” but Karen just goes to her job, goes to her apartment, and doesn’t try to make any connections. It’s too risky. Anyone she talks to for too long, or gets close with, they might die. And yeah it’s depressing and bleak, but that’s why Karen went to San Francisco. She is PUNISHING HERSELF by getting as far away from everything as possible.
But whose phone number does she have? Who is the first person she calls when her fears that her surviving family (Matt) is in danger again? Frank. Because she trusts him over anyone else to do whatever it takes to keep Matt alive. To help Matt keep himself alive. Karen may never entirely approve of Frank’s methods, but she isn’t against them either— especially in a world where for these characters, the justice system fails them again, and again, and again. As Matt and Karen argued in DDs2, what’s more important—? Saving lives or preventing lives from needing to be saved in the first place? Matt is shocked when Karen says that justice may rest in the hands of anyone other than God or a jury. He asks her if she really believes that and she says no, but then amends to maybe. Karen falls into a middle ground, a gray area, where death and killing are sometimes necessary. Are sometimes even just and deserved. As she said of Wesley, she wanted him dead. He deserved more. And while she may not want others to go through what she went through, to be changed by killing, to cross over to that side of the line and never come back, I very much believe that if it came down to losing another person she care about or taking another life, I believe Karen would choose the latter without hesitating. Because hesitation gets people killed.
Karen’s bond with Frank runs deep. I think he understands her in a way that Matt doesn’t. Matt pushes everyone away, shuts them out, leaves before he can be left as a defense mechanism to protect himself without even realizing how much this pattern hurts his friends every single season. Karen meanwhile lives as if she is deserving of punishment, eternally trying to atone for the deaths she’s caused. And yet it would be through the Punisher himself that her greatest “sin” would be completely understood and absolved. Because while Matt may tell her that she can be forgiven, Frank is the one who would truly embrace all of her and say there is nothing to forgive. That what she did was right and good and if anyone tries to hurt her again she should bloody well do it again.
Frank and Karen are tied together through grief and guilt and yet in each other’s presence they feel something else too. Peace. They find solace in each other. They have a connection, so strong multiple characters comment on it. The showrunner even describes it as cosmic. Personally I don’t think it’s because they are necessarily “soul mates” or something trite like that. But they deeply, deeply understand and care for each other and are protective of each other. Frank will jump in front of a bullet for her and she will stand in front of him as a human shield. Life before life. This is what I want more of, for them to get time, for their connection to deepen. This isn’t even about wanting them to kiss, but yeah, that would be nice too. Because the message at the end…. is that love heals. Both of them. And maybe they can’t be together permanently because yes, that would probably mean Frank would retire, and obviously that’s not happening… at least any time soon.
But Frank staying away from Karen is not going to make her safer or her life less violent. That has been her life since well before she met Frank and continues to be her life. They are flip sides of the same coin, and together I think they rediscover a chance to love and LIVE.
Anyway, if the anti kastles are reading this far ya’ll can just scroll now because im not looking for a shipping war and obviously we disagree at the fundamental core of Karen’s morals or if she even has feelings for Frank.
I’ll just end with this quote from Jon, which I think demonstrates he also thinks along similar lines, that their emotional connection is what would be the unraveling of the Punisher, should he ever look for a way out of the darkness.
“I wish there could have been more of Karen and those two together. If there's one person in this world that I think that has the fortitude to handle anything Frank's got to give, and vice versa. I mean, they've both been to some dark and ugly places, but it's nothing either one of them can't handle, and they truly accept each other for who they are. I think if there's one person he could really connect with, it would be her. And that she could sort of get him out of it, if there is any getting out of it.”




















