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@godamnarmsrace
Happy New Year!
We're still alive!!!
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Sorn & Jun
My Stubborn | Official Teaser Special EP.
Oh, no it's the last time I get to see Jimmy in his hot fit from the credits of Vice Versa *quick someone make me a wallpaper for my phone or something*
The wait is over. The show is over. The podcast is here.
In this episode, we celebrated the sacred art of the rewatch, because yes, watching a show again totally counts as productivity (I don’t make the rules, I just enjoy them). It's especially true if you host a Podcast about media...we must consume all the media. We owe it to our listeners.
We took an emotional rollercoaster from the trauma tiggering memories of Last Twilight (seriously, it still hurts, okay?) to the rainbow-colored joy explosion that is Vice Versa.
Somewhere along the way while watching this show, I realised that M was right — it was worth the effort. Do we hate how right M was? It’s becoming a problem.
Or maybe we love it, and her, because it birthed this series of our Podcast and it was a lot of fun.
And then, like any responsible podcast hosts with poor impulse control, we wandered straight into the minefield of fandom entitlement.
Did we make it out unscathed? Unclear. But we definitely have opinions, questionable metaphors, and I might have missed my point a couple of times (I'll find it eventually or hopefully you found it on your own).
So I guess my take-away from this is you should always tune in, rewatch responsibly, and remember: just because somethings hurt us, doesn't fit us on first glance or don't seem like they're worth the effort, doesn’t mean they won’t become your favourite comfort show, your weirdest inside joke, or the reason you’re suddenly emotionally invested in the romantic implications of a bunch of Lotus flowers.
Past Episodes from the Vice Versa Podcast can be found here.
Oh I almost forgot: I am not watching the abo desire show cause I physically am incapable (I tried but I couldn't I just couldn't by whole body went NOPE but I wanna know about it?!?!?!?!?l) And I def would listen to three hours of you talking about it? 👀🥺 if youre up for it. Once it's finished or while it's still airing I don't care I just feel I would be able to enjoy it through you 🤣🤣🤣 you just name dropped it like two times during the revenged love podcast and I'm curious 👀👀👀👀
Completely valid response. Some things just trigger that full-body "Nope Reflex" and there’s no fighting it. Except you should totally fight it for this one…
Because there is all sort of Evil Genius in ABO Desire and especially in Hua Yong's character. There are morally grey characters, red flags, morally black characters and then there is Hua Yong. I saw someone post a video saying this isn't a character with a few screws loose. They're ALL LOOSE, some are even missing and it is so fun to watch.
He is so questionable but it's totally cool because it is for love, right? Even his bestie thinks he's a psychotic asshole.
You know how there are characters you love, ones you want to wrap up and hug.
I want to give Hua Yong a stick of dynamite and see what shit he blows up.
Huang Xing who plays Hua Yong deserves all the awards, no really just like all of them.
But also?? I’m deeply honored that you’d trust us to narrate the chaos of “Abo Desire” to you like some dramatic audiobook/podcast hybrid I am actually kind of excited by the idea now…
I already has thoughts and theories and a tiny bit of yelling stored up - poor M is getting the brunt of my unhinged cackling and epic love for Hua Yong.
Also lol @ me name-dropping it in the Revenged Love ep like a chaotic gremlin trying to spread the gospel. No regrets.
I want everyone to watch but I get the cringe attached to ABO but this show is just low key epic…the layers people. LAYERS. It is worth it. Everyone should tune in and give it a go. And another and another. Let Hua Yong manipulate you too. You know you want it.
I am dying to talk for days about the Master of Manipulation. And this is only one character. The other three mains have their own charms too.
Everyone should watch it.
So I just spent my lovely train ride listening to the revenged love podcast and its just making me want to rewatch the whole thing.
I just really enjoy you two talking and gushing about the shows you love and when it's a show I love as well its like birthday and Christmas combined so thanks!!!!! You basically have to imagine me nodding along to everything you say and get mind blown by the details you see that just fly under my radar. The music for example so Z if you haven't already and I missed it this is my reminder that you wanted to make a post about the music cause I want it and you should do it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I would also like to see a directors cut but I am a little cautious about the 'drama'/rumors about the editing/cutting of scenes. I know too little about the process of making a show like that under these specific circumstances to have a solid opinion but i find it strange that an editing team would just cut necessary scenes without talking to the director. Editing is such an important part of movie making and does a lot of the heavy lifting and I just can't imagine a director being walked over just for scenes to be cut. If they actually cut these scenes there might be more to it. A lot of different factors weighing in that made them do it which you guys basically said as well ANYWAY
I'm just here for my boys and your correct opinions about them 💖🥺
Z I basically screamed when you mentioned the green/red light in ep1 being the red/green flag cause I only saw the villain lighting but you are of course correct. Amazing.
Also your talk about the earlier moments of their characters made me remember so much fucked up shit I already forgot. This rewatch really is a must at this point what am I even doing
You also made me think about why cc would fall head over heels for wsw if he's basically made a home in his own misery and broken heart for 6 years and why it had to be wsw who shook him out of it and I think it's not just the 'loser aura' (omg cc I just urgh so romantic) wsw is in a way... maybe who cc wants to be. He's carefree he's loved he has a home he is optimistic not just about his own future but about humanity he got hurt romantically and picked himself up by his bootstraps and did not succumb to loneliness and despair and hatred he did not get turned into this shell of himself. He stayed absolutely 100% true to himself - which is funny cause wsw tries to be someone else entirely but cc sees through that instantly - and I forgot where I wanted to go with this but the whole 'I am mesmerized by your loser aura' for me means I am mesmerized by how you are unapologetically yourself.
So..... yeah big rant I am sorry but this is your fault as well so bear with me 😌🔪
The snakes!!!! Yes about the snakes. I missed them in the end as well but it does make sense that they're gone (they just should've talked about it but I'm nitpicking a great show) If the snakes represent cc past and basically all his red flag behavior and giving them away ridding himself of said past then I feel like you could open up a conversation about how cc's dad kidnapping his snakes and his parents in general trying to make him stop taking little jealousy everything, was their attempt of breaking cc out of that downward spiral. I mean yeah the much more literal interpretation is 'these snakes are weird please get rid of them and be a good heterosexual son' but I do like to give them more credit especially since they seem to come around in the end.
Just the snakes!!!!
Anyway. Thank you for entertaining me this afternoon and making me emotional about revenged love again ❤️
Just as a visual aid I decided to include this artist interpretation of my journey today:
Have a great night/day!!!
First of all — this message is EVERYTHING??
We both grinned so hard reading it, and honestly, it means so much that you took the time to share all of this.
You captured exactly the kind of conversations we hope the podcast sparks, and hearing that it made your train ride feel like birthday and Christmas rolled into one?? Literal serotonin boost. Thank you. Also the included visual aid had me cackling like a crazy fool.
Now let's get into the meat of this glorious rant (and NO apologies necessary — this is the energy we live for):
The music post… TBH I want to do it but well… I am queen of procrastination, so we'll see. I do really love that song so much.
Re: the director’s cut and the drama — you put that so well.
It’s easy to get wrapped up in the outrage or disappointment (especially when we feel protective over something we love), but you're right that editing is a layered process with a lot of moving parts and people. It’s rarely as simple as “this scene was cut = someone was wronged.” I think we have the stigma of censorship which after so many years is hard to shake our fear of it, as viewers. I think for me it came down to being sad that the actors took the time to create these scenes for us and we will probably never see them.
Still, a director’s cut would be fascinating — even just to see what the full vision looked like before all the necessary compromises were made. Ahhh a girl can dream. Although all the behind clips they are dumping are helping a little. It's nice to see how much joy they had doing this show.
I love how you put CC's love for WSW - "I am mesmerized by how you are unapologetically yourself." Yes. This. Totally. No Noted Needed.
But because I am me, you inspired the ramble in me: it made me think about the snakes as a metaphor for CC's personality. The idea of not feeling safe or comfortable in his own skin. A lack of trust and security, his love for and even the act of keeping snakes as pets made me think of the way they shed their skin. A process used for growth and to remove parasites. His snakes were a bit like WSW if we look at it from the idea that CC saw a freedom and personality that he wanted for himself in WSW, in his snakes he saw an ability to shed the world he lived in and the pressure and expectations of his family and the pain of his past. - end ramble - No wait there is more. LOL. Maybe, that is why I wanted more snakes, even if it was so he could vocalise that he didn't need them anymore, because he finally felt comfortable in his own skin with WSW by his side.
Your whole message felt like a giant warm hug and a deep brain conversation at the same time, which is our favourite combo. Thank you for ranting, for screaming at the green/red light bit (with me), and for being on this journey with us. You're 100% right — a rewatch is absolutely necessary.
-- Z
Z's Pervert Card has been returned!
*We all cheered.*
It is here finally... those waiting, wait no longer as here is our Podcast for Episode 11 of Vice Versa!!!
We had a lot to say.
But in case you missed it, Z finally realised that Tess is a dick in all universes and timelines.
M was insightful as always and managed to trigger some brief moments of coherent rambling from Z, so all in all a good time for all.
Past Episodes from the Vice Versa Podcast can be found here.
I love how laser-focused Chi Cheng is on Wu Suo Wei. There are so many moments of him just... studying him. And every time he approaches him he takes a moment to observe his reaction and we get to see him react to Wei Wei's emotion as well. He is truly fascinated. He's like a snake charmer slowly circling a wild beast, saving himself from being bitten by it by taming it first.
Revenged Love broke us and put us back together again...
Come and Join us as we lose our minds a little or like a lot in our latest Let’s Talk: Revenged Love Special Podcast Episode.
Join us as we talk about ugly crying and laughing fits, if Z should have her pervert card revoked, belt shenanigans, censorship issues and if we're for book spoilers or not.
Previous Episodes of Let's Talk
It's been a while since the last time we posted anything, hasn't it? We would like to remind people that we exist, and we've heard that a good way to engage people is to make polls.
Here's a little test poll to gauge the waters and keep the conversation about Revenged Love going.
Do you want more polls from us?
Yes, I want polls regarding the latest Revenged Love podcast episode.
Yes, and I would like to contribute to the pool of ideas ;)
Yes, I'm always excited to exercise my right to vote.
Yes, I have strong opinions about RL and I want you to unleash the Kraken.
I don't want polls, but I want something else and I'll let you know what it is.
Polls are the bane of my existence, unless they're made by you <3
Click here for our Revenged Love podcast episode on Spotify and here for YouTube.
It's Coming...
I just have to remember how to upload it haha!
He felt guilty, he felt ashamed, he felt powerless, he felt angry, he felt vulnerable, he felt devastated, he felt terrified, he felt regretful, he felt unworthy, he was overwhelmed, and instead of saying "I love you" or "thank you", or "I'm sorry", he said this:
He felt guilty because Wu Suo Wei had to give up a part of himself with the house and give away his whole life's savings to have him back. He had caused Wu Suo Wei pain again, even though his life's most important goal had become protecting him and making him happy.
He felt ashamed because he let down the person who truly believed in him. He was not able to handle everything on his own and be strong. What would Wu Suo Wei's mom say?
He felt powerless because there was nothing he could do to make it better. He could not fix this, and instead, he had to rely on others, including the person he didn't want involved in anything tainted.
He felt angry because they had to go through this and because he had brought Wu Suo Wei down along with himself.
He felt vulnerable because the unwavering love and devotion that Wu Suo Wei demonstrated tore through all the walls he had built to keep himself sane in isolation. Love engulfed him completely.
He felt devastated because Wei Wei had to go through loss again. His sanctuary, where he took refuge when he couldn't bear it anymore, his comfort person whom he couldn't fall asleep without, were both gone. And Chi Cheng's newly found home, where he had made beautiful memories and found a family that accepted him wholeheartedly, was now lost to him as well.
He felt terrified, wondering what Wu Suo Wei was going through. Was he putting himself in danger? Was he being bullied? Was he taking care of himself? Would Wu Suo blame or hate him in the future? Would he be resentful? Will they recover from this?
He felt regretful, as it had happened to them because of his past mistake. He hadn't kept his promise to protect Wu Suo Wei.
He felt unworthy because Wei Wei should have been the one who was cared for and spoiled. Nothing deserved his tears. Nothing deserved these kinds of sacrifices.
Maybe his parents were right all along: he wasn't good enough after all. He was a disappointment.
He hated this. He hated himself.
So yesterday, @godamnarmsrace and I recorded something for @criticallyobs 👀
I'm quite fascinated with the journey of Little Jealousy, as that part of Chi Cheng that belonged to Wang Shuo. It is the reflection of Chi Cheng that is all about Wang Shuo and of the turmoil caused by him.
It makes sense that once Chi Cheng realized his love for Wang Shuo was gone for good and fully decided to leave this part of his life behind he didn't want to hold onto the snake either. He gave it to Wang Shuo, because he thought it mattered to Wang Shuo, and because he is respectful to his past self and his past decisions, and thus of his ex and his ex's feelings too.
But what I find so interesting is that Wang Shuo did not get to keep even that little snake-like part of Chi Cheng. It also ended up in Wu Suo Wei's hands. Wei Wei cherished it, even though it belonged to someone else and now Chi Cheng's love for someone else is his as well.
Every part of Chi Cheng belongs to him.
i mean, you of all people would know how much he can take
Bwhahahahahahahaha post of the week right here.
just wanted to pop in and say thank you so, so much for the work you do. your archive is an invaluable resource for sourcing bangtan's media and catching up on missed things. it's one of the most thorough and useful of the available bts archives. i use it frequently 🖤🤎
Thank you!!! I really appreciate your words. It can sometimes be very lonely doing this and I don't know if it is of use or not so i do really appreciate your thoughts
The 8th episode was kind of fascinating. There is a Reason. Sorn is not just dumb — I’m so happy!
We find out that Sorn’s ex-girlfriend framed him, making it look like he harassed her, when she was actually the one who seduced him in a public space while he was reluctant about it. And it makes me think:
All those times Sorn seduced Jun in public — by the koi pond, in the car, in public bathrooms, even in the middle of his own house — did he actually subconsciously want to get caught, as a way to test Jun’s affections?
If you’re someone who can’t trust another person’s feelings for you anymore, the only way to know for sure is to put them to a test. (The blowjob in episode 7 — which was very rough on Sorn’s part and only implied to be something Jun fully consented to — now looks like a huge display of trust. It would have made Jun look abysmally bad had they gotten caught, and Sorn would’ve had to rely entirely on Jun to assure whoever saw them that he was okay with it).
It’s obviously all going to go downhill for him from this point on. Jun has been acting exceptionally reasonable and kind to him, considering what he’s been given, but he won’t be able to just pretend he didn’t hear Sorn say, "The person I fall in love with cannot be Jun," especially after Jun just confessed that he liked him.
It all started with Sorn and his fear of trusting the person he loves. Instead of being vulnerable, he tried to manipulate Jun — to trick him into staying close, to make him emotionally, and physically dependent on him. He fucks his brains out to express that he wants closeness.
But it’s not really working the way Sorn wants it to, because Jun is stubborn, or strong-minded. He’s friendly and loved by so many people. He has a lot of support. His world does not end with Sorn. I think that has helped him stay empathetic and avoid going to extremes, even when Sorn really pushed his buttons.
I think Jun would’ve stayed with Sorn if he understood what was happening to him and why he was like that. He likes him enough to do that. But he doesn’t have all the information. What he has is: "we’re just fuck buddies," "thanks for liking me," and "that person can’t be Jun."
So far, Jun has been on the receiving end — barely able to keep up with Sorn’s contradictory behavior. The only times Jun initiated anything, Sorn’s response was so intense that it led to pivotal moments in their relationship.
For this relationship to work, Jun needs to be the rock that Sorn clings to. And honestly, that’s already been happening — even though Sorn has been doing everything he can to make it look like he’s the one wielding the power.
It started with Sorn, but it might have to end with Jun.
Yes to all of this.
Sorn's problem
I've been thinking about Sorn and what I'd probably find if I cracked his skull open (lovingly) and stirred through his brain, and I have an interrrrpretation.
I feel like there must be something that's holding Sorn back from being fully himself and going for what (who) he wants. One reason for it is that wouldn't be entirely satisfying for me to discover that the reason he's doing all this is simply because he's just that emotionally stilted — but there are other little things as well, like the below shot of the camera lingering on the back of his head as he's watching Jun leave the car.
You usually see things like this when the story is telling you that the character is hiding something. Might be confirmation bias though, and I'm not sure how much effort they're putting into narrating through camera shots, but anyway.
When we first see Sorn, we watch him through Jun's eyes, and Jun sees him as this unhinged, hypersexual creature — wild and unrestrained, releasing himself in the middle of the day, in a public space, lacking any shame or inhibitions. Free and unfeeling. I'm however convinced that Sorn's actions in that first scene are directly related to Jun.
What if he thinks he's not allowed to be with Jun? If that is true, then what he was doing in that scene was forcing himself to perform exaggerated heterosexuality — but then he noticed June, and his efforts went out the window.
I think Sorn has always been aware of his attraction to Jun. He does all those deliciously devious things to Jun without batting an eye because "well, he's heterosexual, it doesn't mean anything, he won't feel anything for me anyway, I can bullshit my way out of this." He thought he's just going to suffer with his one-sided thing, and Jun will never know.
And then Sorn disappears because of The Reason (feelings of worthlessness, or family drama, something else, or everything at once). He severs the connection completely because he needs to, trying to get over Jun. And it's completely fine, because Jun doesn't feel anything for him anyway. He has a girlfriend, he's alright. So Sorn tries to forget him, but it doesn't happen — because he's hooked, and no matter how many partners he has, they just cannot fill the Jun-shaped hole in his heart. They can never satisfy him enough. He never lets them really see who he really is; he never allows them into his personal space.
But at least he's at peace, because Jun is straight— so there wasn't even a potential possibility for a relationship, right? Well, no wonder his reaction to finding out Jun is openly gay is so mixed when they meet each other again. His obsession is back. He cannot stand the idea that Jun is going to have more — and it is not going to be with him — so the bullshit is back on, and he goes off the rails.
Sorn creates this situation where he thinks he's in control, where he's going to get a taste of as much as he can, for as long as it's possible, without stepping over the line. And in his mind it's fine, because Jun doesn't like him anyway, so he's the only one who's going to get hurt — and he's probably used to suffering already.
And he's in denial of Jun's growing feelings for him, justifying Jun's unusual animosity by attributing it to his own jerkish behavior, arguing that it's normal for Jun to have such a reaction to everything that he does, so he plays into it. And his friends always calling him a jerk and blaming every little thing on him without really paying attention to his feelings are not helping in any way — they're just solidifying his delusion and maybe reinforcing his bad guy self-concept.
Similar to his whole "no-attachment sex apprenticeship" thing, the printer prank was done to get Jun's attention, teach him a lesson, and keep him in control. He thought Jun wouldn't suffer because it wasn't that serious to him — but Jun cried.
So I think soon everything will slip out of his control and it will blow up in his face. Jun will get hurt, Sorn will have to face the devastating consequences of his actions, and I will cry. :)
Love this.