So anyways anyone who ever told me that Horikoshi made all the Todorokis forgive Endeavor and that his arc was about forgetting everything wrong he did and prioritizing his manpain over Rei and Shoto owes me ten dollars

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@hawksextracrispy
So anyways anyone who ever told me that Horikoshi made all the Todorokis forgive Endeavor and that his arc was about forgetting everything wrong he did and prioritizing his manpain over Rei and Shoto owes me ten dollars
I keep seeing the take of Hawks' self perception as an abuse victim who made it (and thus he doesn't understand why other people cant) and I dunno. I see where its coming from but its honestly a little at odds with what we've seen of his character and is, I think, pretty symptomatic of a worldview that thats uncomfortable acknowledging anything good Endeavor may have done. Which is understandable, but it holds us back from understanding Hawks; the good Endeavor has done is key to his sense of self.
Hawks is pretty clearly uncomfortable thinking of HIMSELF as a victim. He cut all ties with his past and insists thats what makes him functional. But I don't think he's unconscious of the fact that he needed aid (albeit a very particular kind of manipulative and exploitative aid) in order to get to that position in life.
Lets go back to the Twice fight.
I think the wording here is pretty essential. Typical hero-villain call and response is "its never too late to do the right thing". Hawks doesnt do that. He acknowledges three things here.
1. The fact that Twice's villainy is more based on circumstance than on actual ill intent. This is something Twice himself acknowledges. If hed been luckier, he wouldnt be here. This is Hawks acknowedging he didnt choose to be put into this situation (much like he didnt choose to be put into his own environment)
2. An offer to get him out. Again, a re-emphasis on providing him with the tools to get out of his situation if he wants it. Not "I believe you can get out of this" or a simple "come with me", but "I will get you out of here"
3.An affirmation that Jin is already a good person. Not that he can become one, but that he is one.
Now, Im aware of the irony of calling this action compassionate when hes got Twice surrounded with weapons. Im not saying Twice should be grateful here OR that Keigo is doing the right thing. But I dont see that kind of bootstraps mentality that keeps being attributed to him after 299. I think its a desperate gesture from a guy who knows deep down that it wont be accepted, and even if it was, is aware of the systemic blindspots that will let Twice slip through again and again. He never once condemns Twice for failing to "make it" either implicitly or explicitly.
Its not really directed at Shoto either. We see exactly one shot of Shoto, and its implictly Hawks reflecting on the way Shoto looked at Endeavor at the one point in time where Hawks has seen them interact. Based on the fact that Hawks has Tomie in his life at all, I think he knows what it looks like when a kid has some mixed feelings towards their parent. He's currently going off the only information he has, given that hes had at most six hours to process the information, he doesnt know most of the Todorokis, and hes got his own baggage bound up in Endeavor.
He doesnt even condemn Dabi for what he said. He doesnt say "it cant have been that bad". He says "I dont think its like that anymore". Which (and I know this is controversial) is in some very real sense true. Endeavor is not suddenly a paragon of virtue, but is putting the behaviors that created Touya behind him. The way he treats Shoto, Natsu, and Fuyumi are not the same as when Touya was a child. That doesn't erase it, which Endeavor himself acknowledges AGAIN AND AGAIN. But its more than enough give for someone who desperately needs him to be a hero to latch onto.
Endeavor, for better or worse, was Hawks' first hero (and believe me, you can make a lot out of the fact that the All Might plush was too expensive to get lmao). He was the one who made the idea that Keigo could be safe, could be protected (even in a DEEPLY impersonal way) real. He is still so integral to Hawks' ability to believe in heros
But in his mind, Endeavor's is. He can save the day. In order Hawks to believe in heroes, in order for Hawks to believe in himself....he has to believe that there is some kind of good that can come from Endeavor still being a hero.
So no, I dont think Hawks is wondering why other abuse victims cant just let the past die. I think him clinging onto Enji is in fact very symptomatic of Hawks clinging desperately onto his own past. Endeavor was his helping hand out of a very dark place when he was a child. I dont think its unreasonable to say that hes hoping to climb that ladder out again. Whether or not thats the right thing, I think its a very real response to finding out the guy who saved you may have been the villain in another person's story.
At a certain point Im just gonna start losing my domestication and start biting Dabi and Shoto stans who keep pushing that "good abuse victim/bad abuse victim" nonsense because theyre so consistently shitty to Fuyumi and Hawks like they didnt also have their own experiences with abuse and dont also need to be understood and treated with empathy
Twice is my favorite character its why I get to take potshots at the people who only want to bring him up in their Hawks hate posts
I just think maybe demonizing a guy for not wanting to hate the person who removed one of his abusers from his life is maybe not the move you think it is. Like whether or not its the right thing to do a consistent relationship thats returned to in MHA is the way the person that rescues you can completely alter the course of your life
Imagine trying to convince Kota that Deku is a bad person, or Eri that Mirio is a bad person. Even if Deku or Mirio legitimately did something wrong, I think itd be nearly impossible for them to accept it at first. Hawks was roughly their age when Endeavor saved him, and hes had an extra decade and a half where he was trained and groomed to put results over literally everything else. Of COURSE his response to all of this isnt gonna be to immediately spit in Endeavor's face. Especially since one of his core motivations is ANYTHING to prevent the collapse of hero society. From his perspective hes already failed so catastrophically to save Japan of course he's going to try and return to his old safety mechanisms. This is something we've seen as early as the first arc he was in. Endeavor makes Hawks feel safe, and Hawks believes in the importance of FEELING safe in order to actually become safe.
Basically if youre gonna write essays on the complexity of how Dabi's trauma effected him (and I agree that its essay worthy) and how that should affect our assessment of his actions I shouldnt see the follow up take of "victim of abuse is an abuse apologist for not immediately hating the guy who saved him. also he kill people so bad : ("
People will really watch superhero media and then be shocked when the hero wants to save everyone
Like I know you guys have been poisoned by a couple decades of dudebro Batman discourse but saying "this 15 year old should use state sanctioned violence to brutally murder everyone who does something wrong" is dare I say, not very ACAB of you!
People will really watch superhero media and then be shocked when the hero wants to save everyone
You ever think about how we're gonna see this animated in the spring and just
last rb maybe I need to be the one making twice thirst trap..
one moment of salt - Twice is just as hot as the rest of theĀ āhotā men of the League. And unlike all of them, canonically he had an ass so heās clearly on a different level of being hot. Stop erasing him from villain thirst posts pleaseā¦
OK THEYRE GOOD?? THEYRE GOOD??? I LITERALLY CANT LOSR ANYMORE KIDS TONIGHT IM AT MY LIMIT COMPRESS IM COUNTING ON YOU
I feel like a lot of people hold the kids of 1-A accountable for actions most of them do not have context. Like, most of them are in high school and many important conversations are had in rooms they arent in. So of course theyre gonna be ignorant, most people are in high school. Yes, the villains tell them, but theyve been trained their whole lives to ignore what a villain says and even then Deku has acknowledged he cant just discard it. We have context they dont
Iām of two minds on this:
1. Theyāre kids and at 16 itās the prime time to start thinking critically. At the same age as them, I spent my afternoons marching with OWS after my classes ended. I canāt say I completely understood so much of the issues going on at that moment at the time, but there was a deep anger in me at the corporate bailouts while families like mine were reducing to living on paycheck to paycheck and that didnāt feel enough. Theyāre exactly the right age to start formulating their own ethics and opinions.Ā Ā
2. āVillainā kids donāt get this luxury. Ultimately, I think we should realize being a hero is also a protected class? Itās not spoken of much, but uhhh, the fact Mirukoās a hero despite being like suspended repeatedly for vigilantism and bad use of her quirk (to join fight clubs), the fact the kids got away with the Stain thing, the fact the only people who are able to use their quirks in public are heroes...
So, yes, thereās definitely slack that we should be giving the kids as kids, but theyāre also not allowed to remain ignorant and uninvolved. Theyāre being conscripted as child soldiers to defend their own rather protected status in that society. (Which comes with its horrors, the way Midnight just saidĀ āyou know what you signed up forā). The thing is that innocence only stretches so far. Iām still on Team Tokoyami thinking this through a lot, and Iām still hopeful the end of this arc will be the kids making some hard decisions, but theyāre not just random bystanders in this, not anymore.Ā I think, also, my perception has been that Gen-Z kids are even more savvy and willing to be activists than usĀ āvery late millenials/zillenialsā. Maybe Iām wrong? But I wonder if the bulk of criticism is coming from people the kids age, too, who see the characters as peers and just canāt relate because this isnāt the case in todayās high-schools where kids are typically politically savvy? My experience with Gen Z was being an RA for a bunch of kids born 1998-2000, so anyone else feel free to chime in.
Hi Im anon (this isnt my main so I couldnt ask from here). I also broadly agree with your points, but Im also Gen Z (not a minor, but born in 1998 so close enough by proximity) and insofar as thats relevant:
16 IS the age where a lot of people start to become politically minded and develop their own thoughts and opinions, especially Gen Z whos had more immediate access to more diverse groups of people online and thus arent as held back by the limitation of their irl social circle to learn about the world.
However, I think it's important to remember that regardless of generation, teenagers are social creatures. Theyre in the process of really learning and internalizing empathy, and often the way that starts is correlating that compassion with external validation. This is especially true about issues that dont affect them personally. At 16 I still thought I was cishet and I was primarily surrounded by other cishet people. I could have very easily continued down a path of social homophobia/transphobia had I not ended up in spaces online that celebrated and uplifted LGBT voices. I didnt unlearn my (internalized) homophobia because I woke up one day and independently decided to do something about it. I did it because I was put in spaces that forced me to confront my own assumptions. It wasnt an overnight process and there were fuckups, but I think its a necessary process.
I think Deku and the others are currently having that experience of confrontation. Theyve had inklings of it before but they have no real context for Shigaraki or Stain or Toga or anyones backstories. And when youre 16 and youve grown up with everyone you admire telling you that the height of justice and compassion is protecting the world from People Like Them I think its only natural that it takes you months, even years to shake that off. I think Dabi's reveal is going to be pivotal in that for Deku since he actually does have context for him and has Shoto as an integral part of his social world.
Anyways, whole lot of words. Basically I agree with your points that Deku and co SHOULD be developing in this direction, I just don't necessarily think its bad that they havent yet. Theyve been given constant reinforcement from their society to think that rejecting what a villain says is not only good, but necessary if you want to save lives
"As usual Shoto's being framed as in the right because he forgives Endeavor because the narrative wants you to forget what he did ššš" Im begging people to point me to any point where Shoto has been framed as forgiving Endeavor or forgetting what happened. That has literally never occurred. Having a moment of anxiety when your dad might be about to die (yes, even your shitty abusive dad) is not the same thing as forgiving, its called being a teenager with complicated familial relationships.
You guys want the Todorokis to be neat, with clearcut relationships and good guys and bad guys (whether you include Dabi in the bad guy camp or not). You want to hold onto your perception of Endeavor as a cartoon abuser that its easy to feel morally superior too, rather than what he actually is: a fucked up dude, who fucked up a lot of people, and is trying to move on. Hes not seeking redemption, there is literally nothing that can "make up" for abusing your wife and kids for years. But hes not going to just cease existing, and so hes trying to push forward and not make the same mistakes again
NONE of this means you have to forgive him. Shoto and Natsuo never have and we're pretty explicitly told that Fuyumi's forgiveness of him has more to do with her desire to bring her family together than him "deserving" it. None of this means you have to like Endeavor.
Writing a family with a history of abuse as messy and complicated isnt abuse apologism, its true to many people's actual experiences. Not everyone cuts ties with their abusers permanently. Many people hope for them to do better. Because again: while you never ever owe them forgiveness, an abuser is not going to just go away because you dont like them. They will one way or another need to be dealt with.
All of this IS endeavors reckoning. It is a reminder that the past wont just go away and there are things that he will never properly atone for. Dont mistake the frustratingly literal reads hero stans are prone to make for what the text is actually telling you.
This isnt even the first time Shindo's done well on the Japanese popularity poll. He placed fifteenth in the last one (compare to the US poll where he ranked 81st), meaning this probably wasnt a fluke
WHAT THE FUCK DOES JAPAN KNOW ABOUT SHINDO THAT WE DONT
People like ok but BJ has a point its not right for Dabi to be dragging this family drama in front of everyone think of his siblings š¤š¤š¤š¤š¤š¤š¤š¤ as if Shoto isnt telling every man woman and child who gives him an opportunity how much he hates his dad
You're the only bitch in this fandom I respect. You keep popping up in the tags I follow and unlike everyone else, you actually have good takes.
kskahscs thanks. benefits of being new to this fandom is Im not as entrenched in old discourse which can help free up some perspective that I think people who have had time to get attached to certain perceptions can sometimes lose (which, no shame in that, Ive done it in other fandoms for sure). And I also like. Actually like pretty much every character in this series so that helps
Theres something to be said in sinking a whole society for the sake of personal revenge but the reason Best Jeanist is missing the mark so badly is: Endeavor isnt just some hero.
Hes the number one hero. Hes the symbol of peace. Hes lifted on a pedestal and celebrated as an ideal. Hell, even Endeavor knows this. Its part of why he approached All Might after becoming number one. He knows hes setting the culture for all of hero society as long as he's number one. He wanted to make sure his impact would finally be a good one.
So Dabi's critiques arent just "This man abused me and all of you suck because of it". Its "The man you are celebrating did this. So what does it say about you that you were either oblivious....or willing to ignore it and continue to lift him up? What does it say that he is your Symbol of Peace?"