Keiro/Finn/Claudia is a terrible ot3 but the fact that its initials are KFC is so funny to me
occasionally subtle

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@independentlyafandom
Keiro/Finn/Claudia is a terrible ot3 but the fact that its initials are KFC is so funny to me
I’m back out of retirement to say WHY did no one tell me Catherine Fisher cONFIRMED A THIRD BOOK???!!!!?
It’s too bad there’s not a fandom here
we could have such fantastic discourse
what is this discourse you speak of
Also: wha’d you mean there’s not a fandom? We’re right here. All five of us. It’s like a sad intervention.
Let’s discourse, friends
What are your ships? (Tbh of what little activity there is on here it seems fairly uniform which kinda surprises me)
How do you think Incarceron was conceptualized? Why did it go through? It seems to me, when you stop and think about it, it all seems really sketchy. Like, they put all the war criminals in an artificially constructed utopia. Bad idea for two reasons: one, even if we give the benefit of the doubt and say that only a slightly larger fraction of the people imprisoned were prone to violence, etc. than the common populace, you still have a population scarred by war and not only that but a population that lost. Two, these people are being overseen by a few “elite,” who, however educated and benevolent they may be, there is still a huge risk for a power imbalance here. The attitude toward the Sapients Inside by the time the story starts is actually kind of fascinating to me; I would have expected them to become elitist in effort to survive. Furthermore, utopian communities have been tried again and again throughout history, and they never work. I find it hard to believe that someone high up wouldn’t have known this. Which means that the severe class distinctions and the secrets within the government have been present from the very beginning. Incarceron was never humane–it was just made to look like it would be so people wouldn’t get upset. From there it’s entirely possible to argue that Incarceron was never meant to last. After all, if it just slowly ran out of power and died, no one in the Realm would really care. The legend would live on, as it did before, and the Warden would pretend to still have a job (which is pretty close to what is going on anyway.)
And on that note, how was the Realm established? Assuming the world was in some vaguely similar state to our world when the Years of Rage occurred, it would be insane to establish such a rigid caste system so quickly, even if technology was all but lost. Surely people must have rebelled against it? How were they pacified? Were they killed?
What exactly are the Sapients? Obviously they’re educated, but how are they chosen beyond that? Are they some kind of Jedi kind of thing (well, they are anyway) where certain people are chosen from an early age? Is it purely an occupation? Are there limitations on their lifestyle, or do they merely gain from their skills and knowledge?
Could Incarceron work in theory? In particular I’m talking about the issue of matter cycling. Animals and people are found to be more and more made of metal, but why? If Incarceron is a closed system, all the matter within must be recycled, which means that Incarceron is not putting it’s organic waste to good use. The issue does arise, however, of where the energy comes from in the first place. Where does organic matter come from?
(Also the whole thing about how exactly halfmen come about is pretty weird to think about I mean that means that robots are being constructed in the womb)
And what about the technology in the Realm? Are the poor aware of it? What stops any uprisings? If we follow this logic, the Realm seems very much like a totalitarian dictatorship.
Also, not a question but a very passionate statement: it is NOT THE VICTORIAN AGE PEOPLE. IT’S SOMEWHERE IN THE SEVENTEENTH CENTURY. (which is actually much harder for a lot of people to romanticize which I find interesting)
What is Jared’s mbti?
What kind of enneagrams are we looking at here?
Is Jared actually dead? Is Jared actually Sapphique? Did Sapphique exist? What exactly was Sapphique? How exactly did Jared know what to do at the end of Sapphique? How exactly did him being in control solve all the problems in Incarceron (e.g. the matter cycling above?)
Man that was a lot. Pretty sure there’s more, but that’s a good start.
What is this discourse you speak of
What isn’t this discourse I speak of
I really like all of those points, and I think you’re doing a great job of getting this tiny fandom hyped, but I think you misunderstood me:
I don’t know what discourse is. Like, at all. The word discourse… I just don’t even know what it means.
That’s what I meant by ‘what is this discourse you speak of’
Sooooo I’m really sorry if I was unclear about that :/
@bluecatseatbluecupcakes: “Discourse” means “a formal lengthy exposition on some subject”.
@independentlyafandom: On the subject of matter recycling:
In chapter 13 of the first book, the characters noted that Incarceron was running out of organic parts. My theory is that Incarceron was already using organic waste to build its body to Escape. It also used up a lot of electricity building the body, which led to waste not being collected in some parts of Incarceron. With Jared in charge, the matter and power would not be wasted anymore. (He could even replenish the lost matter with waste from the Realm.)
*finally answers like eight years later* (I’m a college student, nuff said)
@bluecatseatbluecupcakes I’m sorry about the confusion! It was on my end too :)
Anyway, I like the idea of using organic matter to build the body, and that could certainly account for some of it, but the sheer amount of missing material seems odd. It just occurs to me though that we encounter/hear of several hybrid creatures; maybe Incarceron has created its own species, which could easily upset the balance in such a small system. And since the system is so small it’d be easy to put too much pressure on the environment via overpopulation.
It’s too bad there’s not a fandom here
we could have such fantastic discourse
what is this discourse you speak of
Also: wha’d you mean there’s not a fandom? We’re right here. All five of us. It’s like a sad intervention.
Let's discourse, friends
What are your ships? (Tbh of what little activity there is on here it seems fairly uniform which kinda surprises me)
How do you think Incarceron was conceptualized? Why did it go through? It seems to me, when you stop and think about it, it all seems really sketchy. Like, they put all the war criminals in an artificially constructed utopia. Bad idea for two reasons: one, even if we give the benefit of the doubt and say that only a slightly larger fraction of the people imprisoned were prone to violence, etc. than the common populace, you still have a population scarred by war and not only that but a population that lost. Two, these people are being overseen by a few “elite,” who, however educated and benevolent they may be, there is still a huge risk for a power imbalance here. The attitude toward the Sapients Inside by the time the story starts is actually kind of fascinating to me; I would have expected them to become elitist in effort to survive. Furthermore, utopian communities have been tried again and again throughout history, and they never work. I find it hard to believe that someone high up wouldn’t have known this. Which means that the severe class distinctions and the secrets within the government have been present from the very beginning. Incarceron was never humane--it was just made to look like it would be so people wouldn’t get upset. From there it’s entirely possible to argue that Incarceron was never meant to last. After all, if it just slowly ran out of power and died, no one in the Realm would really care. The legend would live on, as it did before, and the Warden would pretend to still have a job (which is pretty close to what is going on anyway.)
And on that note, how was the Realm established? Assuming the world was in some vaguely similar state to our world when the Years of Rage occurred, it would be insane to establish such a rigid caste system so quickly, even if technology was all but lost. Surely people must have rebelled against it? How were they pacified? Were they killed?
What exactly are the Sapients? Obviously they’re educated, but how are they chosen beyond that? Are they some kind of Jedi kind of thing (well, they are anyway) where certain people are chosen from an early age? Is it purely an occupation? Are there limitations on their lifestyle, or do they merely gain from their skills and knowledge?
Could Incarceron work in theory? In particular I’m talking about the issue of matter cycling. Animals and people are found to be more and more made of metal, but why? If Incarceron is a closed system, all the matter within must be recycled, which means that Incarceron is not putting it’s organic waste to good use. The issue does arise, however, of where the energy comes from in the first place. Where does organic matter come from?
(Also the whole thing about how exactly halfmen come about is pretty weird to think about I mean that means that robots are being constructed in the womb)
And what about the technology in the Realm? Are the poor aware of it? What stops any uprisings? If we follow this logic, the Realm seems very much like a totalitarian dictatorship.
Also, not a question but a very passionate statement: it is NOT THE VICTORIAN AGE PEOPLE. IT’S SOMEWHERE IN THE SEVENTEENTH CENTURY. (which is actually much harder for a lot of people to romanticize which I find interesting)
What is Jared’s mbti?
What kind of enneagrams are we looking at here?
Is Jared actually dead? Is Jared actually Sapphique? Did Sapphique exist? What exactly was Sapphique? How exactly did Jared know what to do at the end of Sapphique? How exactly did him being in control solve all the problems in Incarceron (e.g. the matter cycling above?)
Man that was a lot. Pretty sure there’s more, but that’s a good start.
What is this discourse you speak of
What isn’t this discourse I speak of
Why are they fooling around in a brutal snowscape instead of shivering their miserable asses off and searching for shelter? My dude… my guy… I have no idea.
How are the Incarceron Fans called? Because I really want to have a name, I’m so fucking obsessed with it.
I vote for Prisoners
Not only does it match the series, but it also sounds highly alarming to people who don’t know the context
It’s too bad there’s not a fandom here
we could have such fantastic discourse
Okay for real I wanted to mbti type Jared like eight years ago when I did everyone else’s but he’s either a really unhealthy INFP or a really healthy INTP and as someone who’s pretty dang close to the latter I can’t really tell the difference
but those are my guesses. Have fun.
Legends of Sapphique In Chronological Order
There was a man and his name was Sapphique. Where he came from is a mystery. Same say he was born of the Prison, grown from its stored components. Some say he came from Outside, because he alone of men returned there. Some say he was not a man at all, but a creature from those shining sparks lunatics see in dreams and name the stars. Some say he was a liar and a fool.
When he was born, silent and alone, his mind was empty. He had no past, no being. He found himself in the deepest place of darkness and loneliness.
“Give me a name,” he begged.
The Prison said, “I lay this fate on you, Prisoner. You shall have no name unless I give it to you. And I will never give it.”
He ground. He reached out his fingers and found raised letters on the door. Great iron letters, riveted through.
After hours, he had grasped their shape.
“Sapphique,” he said, “will be my name.” --
Sapphique rode out of the Tanglewood and saw the Fortress of Bronze. People were streaming into its walls from all around.
“Come inside,” they urged him. “Hurry! Before it attacks!”
He looked around. The world was metal and the sky was metal. The people were ants on the plains of the Prison.
“Have you forgotten,” he said, “that you are already Inside?”
But they hurried past and said he was deranged.
--
He worked night and day. He made a coat that would transform him; he would be more than a man; a winged creature, beautiful as light. All the birds brought him feathers. Even the eagle. Even the swan.
He raised his hands. They saw his coat was feathered like the wings of the Swan when it dies, and when it sings its secret song. And he opened the door that none of them had seen until now.
Sapphique strapped the wings to his arms and flew, over oceans and plains, over glass cities and mountains of gold. Animals fled; people pointed up. He flew so far, he saw the sky above him and the sky said, “Turn back, my son, for you have climbed too high.”
Sapphique laughed, as he rarely did. “Not this time. This time I beat on you until you open.”
But Incarceron was angered, and struck him down.
He fell all day and all night. He fell into a pit of darkness. He fell like a stone falls, like a bird with broken wings, like an angel cast down. His landing bruised the world.
He woke and found them all around him. The old, lame, the diseased, the half-made men. He hid his head and was filled with shame and anger. “I have failed you,” he said. “I have journeyed so far and I have failed.”
“Not so,” they answered. “There is a door we know, a tiny, secret door. None of use dare crawl through, in case we die there. If you promise to come back for us, we will show you.” Sapphique was lithe and slender. He looked at them with his dark eyes. “Take me there,” he whispered.
Sapphique, they say, was not the same after his Fall. His mind was bruised. He plunged into despair, the depths of the Prison. He crawled into the Tunnels of Madness. He sought dark places, and dangerous men.
So he rose up and sought the hardest way, the road that leads inward. And all the time he wore the Glove he did not eat or sleep and Incarceron knew all his desires.
Approximation of King Endor’s Decree - or - Chapter Openers In Order
The Years of Rage are ended and nothing can be the same. The war has hollowed the moon and stilled the tides. We must find a simpler way of life. We must retreat into the past, everyone and everything, in its place, in order. Freedom is a small price to pay for survival.
We will choose an Era from the past and re-create it. We will make a world free from change! It will be Paradise!
Our Realm will be splendid. We will live as men should live, and the land will be tilled for us by a million yeomen. Above us the ruined moon will be our emblem of the Years of Rage. It will flicker through the clouds like a lost memory.
You will thank us for this. Energy will not be wasted on frivolous machines. We will learn to live simply, untroubled by jealousies and desires. Our souls will be as placid as the tideless seas.
We forbid growth and therefore decay. Ambition, and therefore despair. Because each is only the warped reflection of the other. Above all, Time is forbidden. From now on nothing will change.
Each man and woman will have their place and be content with it. Because if there is no change, what will disturb our peaceful lives?
The land will be filled with deep forests and dark lanes. A Realm of magic and beauty. A land like those in legends.
My Realm will last forever.
Reasons Incarceron/Sapphique Should Not Be a Movie #2
because there is no downside to a BBC series
I remember a story of a girl in Paradise who ate an apple once. Some wise Sapient gave it to her. Because of it she saw things differently. What had seemed gold coins were dead leaves. Rich clothes were rags of cobweb. And she saw there was a wall around the world, with a locked gate.
Incarceron by Catherine Fisher
Incarceron MBTI: Claudia Arlexa
ENTJ
Claudia is exceedingly goal-oriented. She wants truth, and she’s going to get it, even (or especially) if it means breaking free of her incredibly appearance-focused world. The socially acceptable deception of the Realm frustrates her constantly, as it forces her to sift through false information to get at the real data. Her tense environment keeps her brain sharp, but the ever-shifting pool of information has a tendency to be her downfall due to her inflexibility in drawing brand new conclusions and revising plans.
Te: As a Te dominant, Claudia is perfectly suited to navigating the precarious social structures of the Realm. The rules are countless and arbitrary, but Claudia knows how to use them to achieve results, which rules to follow and which to bend. This is how she’s been raised: to set high goals and do whatever necessary to achieve them. She’s a natural leader, able to inspire confidence with her clear thinking and emotional stability. She effortlessly keeps her cool nine times out of ten, even when others are blatantly trying to manipulate her. This allows her to make skillful countermoves, taking in others’ jabs and making the right defense to one-up the manipulation game. She’s constantly taking in data from her environment to better move her way up in power in the Realm.
Ni: Claudia draws very specific conclusions when given a broad set of data. In fact, this arguably sets off part of the plot, as Claudia finds the circumstances surrounding Giles’s death suspicious and concludes that he was murdered by the Queen. Jared warns her to “be rigorous in her argument,” indicating that she has a tendency to jump to conclusions a little too quickly without gathering enough information. As soon as she draws a conclusion, Claudia considers it fact, even if she is the only one who does so. The combination of Te-Ni shines particularly at the beginning of Sapphique, when she refuses to acknowledge other characters’ feelings and the fact that they’re people, leaving her frustrated that her well-laid plans aren’t working.
Se: Claudia has a very poorly developed Se, demonstrated in how truly inflexible she grows in her conclusions and plans. She uses Se purely for finding details that support her preconceived notions, making her much more aggressive than she would be in a healthier environment. This is where Jared balances her out, as he reminds her of the opposing sides and the holes in her argument. When she loses that accountability her plans start to fail because she doesn’t adapt as well or as quickly.
Fi: We don’t get a good look at Claudia’s inferior function until at least halfway through Sapphique. She becomes concerned only with herself and self-preservation, leaving the other characters to their own devices and all but resigning herself to whatever fate awaits them. Her plans have stopped working and she’s lost all power she once had, and her Fi tries to fill in the gap, leaving her confused, directionless, and lacking in concrete goals.
Incarceron MBTI: Keiro
ESTP
Oh Keiro, fulfilling all those stereotypes. Keiro is a classic playboy, always seeking thrills and charming his way through life. He’s ambitious, vain, and always thinks of himself first and then others—for better or worse. He readily recognizes patterns in peoples’ behavior, and this is his edge in Incarceron. He predicts what people are going to do or feel often before they know themselves and manipulates the environment, rather than the people themselves, to achieve his desired results. It’s a roundabout way of control, but it works.
Se: Keiro is obsessed with the external world. He’s one of the few characters in Incarceron who puts any effort into his appearance, gathering fine clothes and keeping his skin clear and his hair nice. And when you live in prison, that says a lot. Keiro lives life by the seat of his pants, seeking control and power in no concrete manner but rather by taking whatever advantageous opportunities present themselves. Throughout the series we see how he observes body language to draw conclusions and take action to his advantage. When it comes to the abstract, like Finn’s visions and Gildas’s studies, he considers them superfluous and a waste of time.
Ti: Keiro’s Ti reinforces his Se by latching onto the details and filing them away for future reference. In fact, it’s this combination that allows Keiro to be so frighteningly manipulative, as his information is accurate and his strikes always made with laser-precision. Ti is what keeps Keiro grounded in his whirlwind world and gives him the edge over his fellow prisoners.
Fe: Underneath it all, Keiro wants validation. While he does actually think the world of himself, at least part of his snobby exterior is a poor attempt to overcompensate for his own lacking self-esteem. The harsh world of Incarceron is not a good place for tertiary Fe development, causing Keiro to use his own emotions and the emotions of others to his advantage. Keiro desires power, not only for the riches but also for the acknowledgement. He wants to feel he has value, and he’s willing to do whatever it takes to gain that validation.
Ni: When Keiro draws conclusions ahead of time, they are always specific and limited to his current information. On the rare occasion he becomes future-orientated, he gets narrow-minded and irrational, refusing to acknowledge changing circumstances and new information. He assumes that his conclusions are the most certain outcome and resigns himself to this fate, losing his trademark flexibility and adaptability.
Incarceron MBTI: Finn
INFP
Warning! Spoilers!
Compared to the other characters, Finn is a softie daydreamer in a harsh, harsh world. Amid the cutthroat prisoners, his emotional and moral principles seem arbitrary and softhearted. Despite the opposition, though, Finn relentlessly pursues his goals and uses his natural intuition and flexibility to survive in Incarceron. When he finally escapes and develops an identity, he suddenly becomes directionless and pushes away all help.
Fi: From beginning to end, Finn wants to know who he is. The pursuit of his past keeps him going throughout the first book. In Sapphique he falls into a classic Fi-Si loop, connecting past events (the events in Incarceron) with his feelings in the present, leading to his own isolation and lack of direction. Furthermore, the appearance of the imposter prince removes what little identity he had to cling to, forcing him to create a new identity in a world he knows nothing about, and where his previously developed principles are rendered invalid.
Ne: Finn is always pursuing multiple ideas about himself and his companions and has a tendency to jump to conclusions without knowing how he got there. He subconsciously observes the world around him and uses all that information to his advantage, seeing the potential outcomes of his environment to navigate Incarceron (usually acknowledging what events would cause someone to follow or betray him.) He uses his Ne to search for his origins, more specifically to search out possibilities that most others overlook.
Si: The memories/visions Finn fixates on are classic Si. Finn treats these visions as reliable sources of information, as they are his own perception and recollection of events. This personal connection reinforces Finn’s use of Fi and Ne, and vice-versa. Fi gives him a personal and emotional link to the memories; the memories are about him and from his perspective, enforcing his Fi, so Fi gives the memories importance and solidifies them. Meanwhile Si also gives Finn’s Ne a solid foundation, providing the direction he needs to take concrete action to Escape.
Te: Objective thinking is not Finn’s strong suit, and this is highlighted most clearly in his interactions with Claudia. As an ENTJ, Claudia is naturally objective and easily navigates her manipulative and saccharine environment, taking in whatever new information is presented. Finn does not factor these things in easily, and this is why he struggles with his life outside Incarceron so much.
Incarceron Hogwarts Houses
Finn - Slytherin - I could have sworn Finn was Hufflepuff. And maybe, had he not been in Incarceron, he wold have. But the nature of Incarceron made Finn nearly as sly and manipulative as his oathbrother, and he’s always motivated by his own goals. In Sapphique he has a drastic loss of focus, leaving him disoriented and lost, unable to choose how to proceed next.
Keiro - Syltherin - Keiro is the ultimate negative stereotype of a Slytherin (sorry Syltherin friends!) He’s manipulative, cunning, and incredibly vain. He picks up on things quickly and adapts well and turns everything possible to his own advantage. Once he draws a conclusion, it might as well be law because he’s not changing his mind.
Gildas - Ravenclaw - This one seems pretty obvious to me. Gildas is a scholar through and through, and throughout the series he relentlessly studies whatever strange new things he finds, be that Finn’s latest vision or the giant metal trees.
Attia - Gryffindor - Attia’s loyalty sticks out like a sore thumb in this series, and that’s what places her so solidly in Gryffindor. Attia is brave and thinks on her feet, and yet feels a sense of duty to those who have helped her and readily turns against those who wrong her. She may be one of the slier characters, but don’t let that fool you--she has a solid moral compass constructed from her loyalty.
Claudia - Ravenclaw - This one kind of surprised me, but it makes more sense if you take Claudia out of the plot. What would she be like if she lived a happy, content life, free from political intrigue and arranged marriages? She’d be an absolute bookworm, completely devoted to her studies. The majority of the story she spends information-gathering so she can have sufficient background to plan her steps.
Jared - Ravenclaw - I’ll admit, I thought briefly that he might be a Hufflepuff. Jared has several moments of trying to please other characters and has the greatest distress over the state of the Realm. But in the end what motivates him is obtaining knowledge, which leads him to wanting to make the world a better place, not the other way around. He is not a man of action; if he had his way he’d stay in his tower forever, safe with his books.
people finishing Incarceron: omg this book is so good is there a fandom I can't wait to read the next one
people finishing Sapphique: what was that