this blog was for us to engage in syscourse. now, who knows what it’s for. trying to change for the better, grow, heal, and learn more about our disorders.
hello - this is our syscourse blog! this blog may also focus on trauma, recovery, mental illness, and topics we may deem too heavy or difficult for our main blog.
we had taken a break from syscourse, but we’re back and ready once again to engage in thoughtful, respectful discussion. we may leave again in the future as we’re learning to take care of our mental health, but we are incredibly passionate about plurality and would like to once again be involved in syscourse spaces!
click here to read a post with definitions for the words we may use when discoursing.
click here to check out our syscourse code
about us:
we are parts of a traumagenic system diagnosed with did. you can refer to the pair of us with they/them pronouns collectively. kip uses water or ocean themed neopronouns, and kandi uses all sorts of goth, dark, or emo neopronouns. we are in recovery, trying to heal, and currently see a trauma specialist for therapy once a week.
our syscourse stance:
we are currently syscourse unaligned. while we do believe in the existence of endogenic systems, and believe it is wrong to police other people’s lived experiences, we firmly do not believe that dissociative disorders should be demedicalized.
we are psych critical and have trauma involving the psych industry.
we have been diagnosed with a myriad of mental illnesses and struggle with interpersonal communication. please be patient with us if we don’t reply immediately or if our response seems fragmented :)
thanks for reading! we’re looking forward to getting reacquainted and having some good discussions with you all!
Can someone genuinely explain to me what causes endogenic systems to "form" other than "nuh uh it's not all from trauma ur stupid". I literally have not seen a single explanation other than "willogenic" & I need to know what you guys think can cause systems to form.
Also on the topic of willogenic, do you people think it's okay to just... Get a disorder? I think it's genuinely so stupid because I have never seen anyone else just "get a disorder" because "they wanted to". Would you do the same with, say, BPD? ADHD? Literally any other disorder??
"Yeah guys I have BPD because ermm I wanted to have it it's so cool being obsessive with partners lmao :PPP" bro what
hey, we’re a system with dissociative identity disorder who has been active in the plural community for a few years now. we aren’t endogenic, but we’ve met a lot of endogenic systems and we feel confident that we can explain what causes some endogenic systems to form.
plurality simply means existing as more than one. that’s it. there are countless ways of existing as more than one, such as:
- imaginary friends. some, but not all, people consider their imaginary friends as autonomous beings who share their mind and can think for themselves.
- existing from birth. some systems genuinely do not have a history of repeated childhood trauma, but have always felt plural for as long as they can remember, or have had headmates since their earliest memories.
- spirituality. there are many religions and spiritualities which incorporate plurality into their practices. some notable examples are haitian vodun, west african vodun, and umbanda. it’s more common as a practice outside of the usa and western europe.
- daemonism. some people find healing and comfort from assigning characteristics to aspects of their own personality. in this way, they may begin to conceptualize themselves as multiple beings sharing one body.
- internal family systems. this is a form of therapy where folks are taught to treat themselves as individuals made up of multiple beings (managers, firefighters, exiles).
and these examples are just off the top of our head. there are so many other ways that someone may experience their lives as more than one and call themselves plural as a result.
on the topic of willogenic… it’s really important to keep in mind that complex dissociative disorders are not just “system disorders.” there is so so much more to cdds than just plurality. plurality is a single symptom, and not even all people with cdds consider themselves plural.
so no, willogenic systems are not saying it’s okay to just “get a disorder.” endogenic plurality can look incredibly different from plurality which arises from cdds. endogenic systems may not feel disordered. they may genuinely feel plural, but not struggle with their multiplicity. they may not have to deal with dissociative barriers, trauma responses, chronic depersonalization and derealization, amnesia, fatigue, and the plethora of other symptoms that come with cdds.
if someone liked to stim, or stimmed to self regulate, but they did not have any other symptoms of autism and they did not themselves feel autistic, would they have autism? likely not. autism has many symptoms, only one of which is stimming. similarly, if someone develops plurality, but they do not share any of the other symptoms that often accompany complex dissociative disorders, chances are, they don’t have one. and that’s okay.
we hope this response can provide some of the information you’re looking for. we’re happy to clarify anything that is confusing or doesn’t make sense.
Maybe instead of asking why or how some trauma-based systems turn to pro/endo spaces and mistakenly believe themselves to be endogenic, we should be asking why they felt invalidated about their trauma and experiences in CDD spaces
Actually, going to reblog this again with some thoughts:
(Popping back up after getting past the third point, wanted to add: I am in no ways trying to suggest that all CDD systems are anti-endo -- just that there's a huge problem with anti-endos flooding CDD tags, and how that makes it feel as if CDD spaces are unsafe due to anti-endos).
Back when I first joined the system tumblr community, I was quickly driven into pro-endo spaces. There were a lot of reasons for that, but here's just some in particular off the top of my head:
One: I didn't remember my trauma, and it seemed like remembering my trauma was a requirement to be part of CDD spaces.
Every single post, every single user, every single community that was dedicated to DID... was constantly filled with venting about traumatic experiences. The amount of people trauma dumping constantly in the tags was heinous. It's... somewhat improved, now, but the tags were ridiculously bad. (There was also the issue of tag invasion happening frequently, but that's a discussion for another time perhaps). Needless to say, the constant message in CDD spaces was trauma, trauma, trauma -- and, as someone who couldn't recall it at that time, I felt I didn't belong.
This is, frankly, absolutely fucking ridiculous, given the fact that the majority of DID systems, particularly at system discovery, don't really know they have trauma. That's a staple of the disorder. There's this horrendous effect of being chronically online where people just always talk about the worst aspects of their trauma or alters, rather than discussing... literally anything else about the disorder (amnesia, derealization, depersonalization, or yknow, any of the positives?)
Two: Fakeclaiming and sharing explicit, traumatizing details about the disorder, due to not knowing my shit.
I was a 19-21 year old, trying to survive this disorder, and people fucking attacked me for it. I've talked extensively about how pro-endos hurt me on here, but anti-endos are certainly not innocent either. I was told graphic, traumatizing things by anti-endos that made me scared to even attempt getting a therapist, due to the fact that I was so young and inexperienced.
Most of this was because I was "spreading misinformation."
I don't know about you all, but... Remarkably, telling someone who's spreading misinformation that if they really had the disorder they said they did, they would be [INSERT GRAPHIC ASSAULT AND VIOLENCE HERE]... really doesn't fucking help them learn the truth. It just makes them angry (or, in my case, so terrified I nearly deleted all my accounts).
Look. People are going to make mistakes. Coming at them with graphic, horrific fakeclaiming and anti-psych fearmongering for making those mistakes is not going to help things. And unfortunately, this happens so often in syscourse, and was happening far more in anti-endo spaces when I first joined systumblr.*
I particularly am really fucked up still by one occurance with this (Flowers, shout out to you for letting me open up about it in DMs) where someone came at me for saying DID and MPD were different diagnosis. I didn't understand at the time the disconnect in language (in that I was saying "the diagnostic criteria aren't the same" and they were saying "the diagnosis was renamed to DID from MPD"). They're one of the ones who told me I would be sexually assaulted if I really had DID, and that a [whatever age I was at the time] year old shouldn't be trying to share information about a disorder anyways.
I had researched DID as extensively as I could in my abusive situation. I didn't have all the information. They could have approached me with kindness, understanding, "oh honey but no" mentality. Instead, I was fucking crucified for it! I deleted the posts, issued a huge apology for ever trying to educate others on DID, and backed off entirely for a little bit.
Glad I got over that.**
Three: Barring people who aren't [XYZ] from positivity.
I've also been vocal on my blogs about how radical inclusion really fucking hurt me, because the fact was, radically inclusive spaces were not inclusive of everyone, and lied about their unconditionality -- something which someone with disorganized attachments who was desperately clinging to any source of positivity available really did not need.
But let's turn around and look at why I ended up in those spaces in the first place.
Hello, negative nancies that are anti-endos. Every single positivity post had bright red "DO NOT INTERACT IF YOU AGREE WITH ENDOS" stamps. Every single positivity post had "THIS IS FOR DID SYSTEMS ONLY," which definitely did not help me when I was still uncertain what the other options even were. Every single positivity post had things I couldn't relate to, given my (not unique in the slightest, but somehow considered by the community to be) unusual traumas.
And that's if there was positivity at all.
So much of the tags was just hating endogenic systems and crying out about wanting a safe space. But the posts that weren't that? I mean... Y'all can check out MotCR still, the old posts I made and reblogged were there. I focused primarily on reblogging art, because weeding through the hell that was tumblr, that's really all I could find that wasn't negativity toward either the disorder or towards endogenic systems.
Meanwhile... Pro-endos offered me respect. They told me everyone was welcomed, and for someone who was going through massive amounts of realizations and changes, that was desperately needed, so much so that I fell into horrific crowds because of it. It's something I still struggle with today. I was shunted and, yes, as much as I hate this term, gatekept from the resources I desperately needed, because y'all can't be positive at all.
Not to mention, I liked being a system. I liked not being alone. I liked being able to retreat into my head and take a break, that I could survive like that, in a way I didn't know anyone else could to. Then I found a community of individuals who could do that too. Who would I side with -- the part of that community that constantly vented about how fucking awful it was to be able to do those things, or the part that constantly talked about how great it was?
For fucks sakes, y'all.*
That's just three examples from my experiences. There's countless more I've heard, but those are the big ones.
And, unsurprisingly, so many of these new anti-endos -- many of whom are minors, or fresh off the boat into Adulthood -- don't care about welcoming CDDs. They don't care about trying to correct misinformation, and instead, how to avoid it -- unwittingly spreading misinformation themselves. They aren't ready to accept nuance or systemhood that doesn't look like theirs, so they try to create spaces where they don't have to accept it. In fact, the majority of posts I see from anti-endos are about how they "don't have to believe someone else's beliefs." They're not even willing to begin to think that maybe, just maybe, they might be incorrect about someone else's lived experiences.
And that's really sad.
I don't know about anyone else... But I definitely would avoid the CDD community if it looked like that.
Notes:
*I am not saying I am immune to going off on people for making mistakes that ought to be understandable; it's easy to forget that people aren't always on the same page as everyone else in syscourse, especially when you've suffered from the brain rot for nearly a decade. That doesn't excuse the behavior though. We should all work to be a little more understanding of knowledge gaps, particularly when so much of this falls under nebulous concepts or hyper-specific medical jargon.
**I also disagree with the idea that the younger generation shouldn't be allowed to educate the older generation. I find myself constantly reeling at how quickly things change and move, and how much those younger than me educate me on new things. Moreover, pushing people away from knowledge is never a good thing; telling me that I shouldn't educate others instead of... y'know... actually correcting the misinformation... Didn't actually help anyone in the end. It just helped you get off on your own anger. (Yes, I am still a little bitch about how they treated me, and I think that's valid).
***I'm also not saying that DID is fun and games and all hunky dory. I was just barred from so many spaces to talk about the bad things due to also being able to acknowledge the good. "This disorder isn't happy or enjoyable, DNI if you think having alters is fun" has been around since long before 2016 when I discovered my systemhood, and unfortunately, I think it'll be around for far longer. Because of that mentality and those DNIs, I was shunted into places where I couldn't vent about my systemhood, or else I was "medicalizing myself" or "repeating sysmedical rhetoric."
regarding traumascum, we’ve found that anti endos use this word far more than endos or pro endos. we wrote a post about the usage of tramascum in online spaces here:
tldr: the word “traumascum” is used online by anti endos and system medicalists as a way to delegitimize endogenic systems way more often th
as we said in the above post ^ if you don’t believe us you can just search “traumascum” in various online environments to see what we mean. also in that post “system medicalist” refers to those who believe systemhood should remain pathologized in all contexts.
they breathe like you, wake up to see the dawn like you, laugh like you, chat like you, eat tasty snacks like you, curl up with their pets like you.
they revel in nature like you, they stargaze like you, they help earthworms off the sidewalk into the safety of the grass like you, they wish on dandelions like you.
they trust like you, they want to be heard like you, they believe in themselves like you, they fight to be seen like you, they long to be understood like you.
they hurt like you. they cry like you, they have nightmares like you, they may be traumatized like you, they push forward like you, they bleed like you, they heal like you, they hope things will get better like you, they start again like you.
they’re people like you. they’re plural like you. they’re misunderstood for being more than one like you. they’re afraid like you, they’re strong like you, they’re resilient like you, they are loved, just like you.
endogenic systems are not our enemies. they are more like you and me than you might think.
plural solidarity forever. peace and love on planet earth.
first off, don't crosstag. systempunk isn't for your "be nice to endos" posts. don't bring that to a traumagenic tag.
second off, they can live, i ain't gonna tell them to die, but they aren't systems, and should get the fuck out of system spaces and get their own corner of the internet. they don't have the same experiences we do, they don't belong here. antis don't want them in system spaces for a reason. I don't want them here for a reason.
endo systems can be traumatized. they can have ptsd. they can even have dissociative disorders. they are people, they are not a monolith, and they are not immune to trauma and its lasting effects. they don’t just deserve to live - they deserve to live freely as themselves. they deserve to thrive, while defining their experiences with language that affirms and benefits them.
they are systems. just because that fact bothers you or upsets you does not change that fact. most may not have dissociative disorders, but they are still plural and experience life as multiple or more than one. we may not fully relate to endo systems 100%, but the fact that we are both multiple is something very important that we have in common, and we do share many similar experiences. internal conflict, bonding together as system members, learning to work together, managing time and expectations… these are all things that all systems may experience.
you are not the arbiter of everyone else’s online experiences - only your own. if you don’t like seeing our posts, block us.
I need folks to stop arguing that DID is not a trauma disorder.
It's not in the DSM; it is a dissociative disorder highly correlated with trauma, and I think trying to be petty and semantic is not going to win any hearts or minds.
I think it's fairly obvious that edge cases are just that: edge cases. There is a degree to which the same process of alter creation might not be considered pathological because it doesn't meet sufficient distress or dysfunction criteria. Almost all cases of DID still include trauma.
I am of the opinion that dissociation and forming of dissociative alters are on a sliding scale; after all, if you can be functionally multiple, I don't see why someone can't achieve that without going further down the scale through a non-pathological degree of dissociation. I think there are non-dissociative ways to be plural too, we consider our Collective to be one of them.
You can argue for the existence of endogenic systems without trying to undermine the amount of literature strongly correlating DID with trauma. You can even argue for edge cases! But when it comes to actually talking about DID, giving the edge cases equal importance/emphasis to the main cause just doesn't make your case stronger.
Yeah.
In addition to everything OP said, I think another big point in our mind is that...when it comes to how the disorder is currently understood and treated, DID therapy is trauma therapy (with additional complexities). Like, if you took out the parts that centered around managing trauma responses and processing old pain safely, you'd have basically nothing left; someone who was having distressing and/or dysfunctional experiences of amnesia and multiplicity in ways unrelated to trauma would probably need an entirely different set of treatment strategies, to the point where idk honestly why you'd still want to call it "DID", except for possibly insurance purposes.
And on the whole edge cases thing: yeah, of course edge cases could hypothetically exist. Does...anyone have data about that, though? Like even personal single-case anecdote: "yeah, we're a system who is self-or-externally dx'd with DID, and to the best of our own understanding of ourselves, it's completely unrelated to trauma of any kind, and isn't comorbid with any trauma-related issues". We're genuinely curious as to whether these are just debate-club-style hypothetical ideas, or whether the pushback comes from any sort of actual personal experiences or case studies.
(Final endnote: I think another thing that sometimes gets lost in the noise on this topic is that there is a long and nasty history of particular unscrupulous groups of people in the psych establishment who use the language of "DID isn't necessarily traumagenic" (along with "iatrogenic/fantasy model") as a big-ass dog whistle for False-Memory-Foundation-type shit, where they're trying to discredit the accounts and accusations from trauma survivors by doing a "they're just Crazy and Making It Up" hand-wave. Which isn't to say that there aren't plenty of possible interesting discussions about non-trauma factors that relate to how DID happens and is experienced, but that there's some sociopolitical context worth knowing about)
i keep seeing anti-endos harass and humiliate solely traumagenic DID systems in the name of owning the endogenics while being entirely incapable of giving an actual reason as to why endogenic systems specifically are harmful. your ideology is more solidly rooted in the aggressive hatred of others than the protection of marginalised people, maybe reflect on why that is
they breathe like you, wake up to see the dawn like you, laugh like you, chat like you, eat tasty snacks like you, curl up with their pets like you.
they revel in nature like you, they stargaze like you, they help earthworms off the sidewalk into the safety of the grass like you, they wish on dandelions like you.
they trust like you, they want to be heard like you, they believe in themselves like you, they fight to be seen like you, they long to be understood like you.
they hurt like you. they cry like you, they have nightmares like you, they may be traumatized like you, they push forward like you, they bleed like you, they heal like you, they hope things will get better like you, they start again like you.
they’re people like you. they’re plural like you. they’re misunderstood for being more than one like you. they’re afraid like you, they’re strong like you, they’re resilient like you, they are loved, just like you.
endogenic systems are not our enemies. they are more like you and me than you might think.
plural solidarity forever. peace and love on planet earth.
this was meant to be a reblog but someone responded to our post then immediately blocked us so we’re just posting it on its own.
exclusionism is not punk.
plurality without trauma exists. multiplicity simply means the concept of being more than one. we can think of many instances where this can occur without repeated childhood trauma, and we’d be happy to share specific examples if anyone is willing to learn. plurality does not equal complex dissociative disorder. they absolutely are not one in the same.
we do know what it means to be punk. we’re tired of arguing with others online who just use punk to help themselves feel better about their own exclusionist beliefs. punk is not just some quirky, fun label you can slap on without questioning your beliefs at all.
blind faith in the medical institution is not punk.
policing the lived experiences of others is not punk.
refusing to learn, grow, and question your beliefs is not punk.
refusing to treat other people like human beings is not punk, especially when we are on the same side (likely marginalized, likely lower class, likely anti-capitalist, etc.). we all have more in common than the enemies we should be uniting against - the ableist medical institution which oppresses all of us.
even if endos were real and valid, they would have no place in cdd communities because our existence is so fundamentally different. people with cdds are ultimately trauma survivors and that shapes our entire life experience. let us have spaces to ourselves.
we used to feel this way, and we understand this sentiment. and we do feel like having separate space for trauma survivors is important! but the problems with this are:
sometimes “cdd communities” end up being anti endo echo chambers. we have seen many blogs who claim to host “safe spaces for cdd systems” who end up banning, belittling, and invalidating cdd systems who are pro endo. there are lots of tags which should be cdd system specific, but which end up being anti endo specific as they pushed others out.
even if the experiences of cdd systems and endos are vastly different… we do share that common thread of multiplicity. this is why we advocate for both separate and shared spaces. we think both are equally important.
also, it is very possible for endos to be trauma survivors. yes, some of them may have cdds and not know it, but others may just have ptsd or cptsd. some may have been traumatized in adulthood. some may have childhood trauma, but it just didn’t contribute to their plurality.
this is why we think rigidly policing and gatekeeping communities ultimately causes more harm than good. because you never know what someone else is going through. many endos might be trauma survivors themselves, and might benefit from sharing a space with fellow survivors.
hope it was okay to add our thoughts here. in the end, “endo” does not mean “no trauma whatsoever.” it just means that their system specifically did not form from trauma. and while there may be many ways in which we do not understand endo systems, the more we interact and learn from them, the more we find we can relate to them.
The "Bible of psychiatry" is the DSM. In 1994, the DSM changed the name of Multiple Personality Disorder (MPD) to Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID). This was in response to a moral panic where critics claimed that the condition was fake.
The original and current diagnostic criteria do not require trauma for DID (or MPD) (DSM-III, p. 259; DSM-III-R, p. 272; DSM-5-TR, p. 331).
The international counterpart of the DSM is the ICD-11. Its essential features for DID do not require trauma, either.
Both books say that not all cases of multiple personalities are a disorder or a severe impairment. Psychiatry recognizes that medicalizing them is not always appropriate.
Plurality (or multiplicity) is a community umbrella term for many ways of being more than one person in a body. Psychiatrists who know enough about DID are aware of it. Plurality includes but is not the same as DID.
The community has always included plurals who formed for reasons other than trauma. Dividing the community by excluding non-traumagenic plurals and calling them fake is new. That only started in August 2014 on Tumblr, unheard of elsewhere.
When that started, a trauma-caused DID system created the word "endogenic." This means plurals who formed naturally rather than from trauma. The Lunastus Collective coined it in solidarity with them.
(Similarly, the coiner of another umbrella term, "alterhuman," is a member of a traumagenic OSDD system who supports endogenic plurals. The purpose of that word is for plural systems to unite with other sorts who differ from usual definitions of human individual, valuing what we do and do not have in common, instead of in-fighting about who is more legitimate.)
Community historian LB Lee gives several good reasons why-- as trauma-surviving plurals-- they choose not to call themselves "traumagenic" or divide the community by origins. If I may briefly paraphrase a couple of these: If you see suffering as your whole foundation of who you are, then you have a more difficult time envisioning a better situation. If you want others to respect you, a losing strategy is to put down people who are seen as similar to you.
Neither psychiatry nor the greater community of plurals see trauma history as an important distinction in determining whether someone is plural.
I want to preface this with something big: I do not disagree with many of your points. Plural, as a term, was coined for inclusive systems -- it was coined with any and all types of systems in mind, with a leaning toward endogenic systems. Plurality includes but is not the same as DID, and people who are harassing endogenic systems for using the term plural are clearly in the wrong.
With that being said... Be warned, there is a hefty rant under the cut. Because OP, this was horrifically offensive.
We do not need to invalidate DID or anything related to it in order to boost up plurality.
One: we do not need to demonize the DSM to boost up plurality. The DSM does not have anything to do with endogenic systems, beyond if you want to twist the exclusion clause to be retroactively about that community. Want to? Go for it, I don’t care. But calling it “the Bible of Psychiatry” is really fucking starting to piss me off, both as a medicalized system and as a Christian. I’m so fucking tired of people dragging the DSM under the bus entirely, simply to argue about endogenic plurality online. It is a flawed diagnostic manual, and that is all. Please stop bringing it up unless you’re discussing activism for disordered systems.
Two: The source you provide on the change from MPD to DID does not state that it was a response to moral panic; it coincided with a few different panics as abuse became more widely known and sensationalized in both public and media, and you’ve inserted your own correlation to causation based on Lee’s (frankly unsettling, I really have such a strong distaste for this author’s views on survivors) take. Just took my nebulizer, so I'm a little too shaky to find all the sources, but thankfully, someone has debunked this claim hard already. It was not done out of moral panic, nor out of a single man's disbelief in DID. It was done because the task force for the DSM saw fit to make the diagnosis more accurate to what was actually being presented in the brains of those with the disorder. The most recent DSM (in which the single man often quoted for that moral panic you described was no longer part of the task force) removed many of the thresholds to diagnosis, reworded things more, and still kept the disorder name changed because it's more accurate. Just like all dissociative disorders at the time, which ALL had their names changed. I doubt anyone diagnosed with Dissociative Amnesia are particularly eager to return to Psychogenic Amnesia anytime soon (particularly with the -genic labels prominent in sys spaces).
Three: No, trauma is not a part of the diagnostic criteria. This is because of systems like me -- LIKE MANY OF US -- who could not recall our trauma at time of diagnosis. There has never been a case studied in all the decades of DID research where it came to pass that a DID system did not have trauma. Furthermore, it doesn't fucking matter because endogenic systems do not have DID*. There is literally absolutely no reason to mention the lack of a trauma requirement in the DSM. FURTHER furthermore, the DSM is not the end all be all of DID research. It is simply and has always been diagnostic criteria. It's literal only purpose is to help people diagnose disorders. However, there is a WEALTH of research into the trauma-based origins of DID. It's literally everywhere. Meanwhile, I find no sources on non-trauma DID existing despite nearly a decade now of searching (unless we count anything the False Memory folks have tried to say! Which has been linked to me. A lot.) Please, again, stop punching sideways at DID systems to validate endogenic plurality.
Four: Here's what actually led to me responding, because HOO my blood boiled at this part.
Community historian LB Lee gives several good reasons why-- as trauma-surviving plurals-- they choose not to call themselves "traumagenic" or divide the community by origins. If I may briefly paraphrase a couple of these: If you see suffering as your whole foundation of who you are, then you have a more difficult time envisioning a better situation. If you want others to respect you, a losing strategy is to put down people who are seen as similar to you.
Digging into this horrendous essay has not endeared me to Lee anymore than the first you provided. Here's some highlights, for those curious in more than a paraphrase (I'll color it red so it POPS):
Despite being generally looked down on by singlet culture, plurals have nonetheless created an internal pecking order so as to feel superior to each other.
Oh, lovely, yet another person who insists that the "internal pecking order" is for people to feel superior. This internal pecking order, mind you, being the delineations between traumagenic and endogenic. As if to say that "plurals" created "traumagenic" to feel superior to "endogenic." If that isn't how you initially read that sentence, I envy you -- maybe I've just had to read the words "traumatic embitterment" too many times in the past few years and I'm a little jaded.
These folks called themselves “traumagenic,” while everyone else was lumped into the category “endogenic,” which is a false binary, one the term “endogenic” was created specifically to avoid
The term endogenic was coined "lovingly" in 30 minutes, utilizing a term unfortunately originally used to fakeclaim traumagenic origins, as an alternative to Natural / Healthy Multiplicity. I don't think "endogenic" was coined speicfically to avoid a false binary; it was coined because Natural Multiplicity was really fucking offensive. Like atrociously offensive. Now, I could believe that Lunastus has stated it was intended to avoid this binary, and I believe that's what the community stands for now. But when it's being written like this to inherently display a binary between traumagenic systems (seeing themselves as better) than endogenic systems, uuuuuuuuuugh!
This is a problem I’ve seen a lot—taking ableist arguments (“disabled people have no right to privacy”) and dressing them in the clothes of the opposite (“by not publicly stating trauma, you must have no trauma, and thus be trying to sneak into my clubhouse and steal my culture, and you are oppressing me”). It is a convoluted little piece of anti-logic, hard to explain and refute. But let’s try.
I've got one for you:
"By joining this space, you attest you're a CDD system, because this is a space dedicated to only CDD systems, because we need a space to heal and grow in our own way due to the severe and repeated childhood trauma we faced."
This is what got me labeled as a sysmed for goddamn years. Because everyone assumed that a single barrier of entry to a space = exclusion, never pausing to wonder why the exclusion existed.**
I'm not saying that what Lee states here doesn't exist. I'm just saying, pot, meet kettle -- I have seen many endogenic and pro-endogenic systems use this line of thinking as an excuse for their ableism toward completely chill traumagenic systems. Almost like what I saw in this post, hmm.
Plenty of people put doctors on pedestals, but medicalized multiples in particular have a culture of overly deferring to their healthcare team: never making a move without asking the doc’s opinion, treating therapists as their parent replacements, relying on their shrinks for things they should really learn to do themselves, such as taking care of their internal children.
I'm so sorry that Lee has met only those "medicalized multiples." Meanwhile, I got harassed by a pro-endo system for discussing how I had to teach my therapist how to fucking care for me due to his flawed beliefs, in a discussion with a lot of fucking other medicalized multiples. Furthermore -- wasn't this discussion about traumagenic VS endogenic? Beautiful to see that traumagenic inherently means medicalized.
I met multiples who had been in care for decades, never improving, never seeming to learn any skills, but still absolutely enamored of their brilliant therapist (who they apparently couldn’t function without). These weren’t children either; these were people old enough to be my parents or grandparents!
This from the same individual who said "But when it comes to my personal experience, nobody can replace me." I'm sorry, but I find it incredibly offensive to see someone talk behind disabled people's backs about how they "never improve" and "never seem to learn any skills." Does nobody else find this REALLY fucking offensive? I pray to god that the people who went to these conferences that Lee is talking about never see this goddamn essay.
Traumagenic multiples have the same problem with this culture as any other medicalized multi subgroup. But they are the first I’ve seen who claim that not mindlessly deferring to medical authority is ableist.
Again. Not traumagenic multiples. Anti-endos. Not every traumagenic system is an anti-endo, not every traumagenic system is a 'morally outraged ableist,'*** not every traumagenic system even gives a solitary fuck about syscourse. I am sooo fucking tired of, yet again, traumagenic systems being thrown under the bus for syscourse.
Given that Lee wrote this in 2019, I have to assume he had the words "anti-endo." Yknow. Given the fact that I was part of syscourse at that time and had already been harassed by pro-endos for being a DID system. I wonder where they got the idea that DID systems are inherently medicalizing scum.
The only way to actually overcome these problems is through active engagement, awareness, and change. And I have seen no indication that traumagenic multiples, actually want to do those things, despite all their blathering about ableism.
I really wonder where that idea that all traumagenic systems are ableist scum came from...
But traumagenic is not treated as descriptor, as far as I’ve seen. It’s an identity, and as far as I can tell, it’s mostly based around medicalization, trauma, and suffering.
Source?
No, really, I need a source on that claim. Because as a system who is in traumagenic spaces, who THRIVED in those spaces... I have genuinely no idea what Lee is smoking here. And I could fucking use a hit by this point.
Many traumagenic systems discuss their suffering. That is because they are traumatized people talking about their trauma. That does not mean they BASE their ENTIRE IDENTITY on THEIR FUCKING TRAUMA.
As a system who used to use the label traumagenic, I used it to deliniate myself from endogenic systems because I was so often told I was endogenic... by other endogenic systems. I was taught to deny my trauma, taught I couldn't be traumatized due to numerous factors (such as growing up wealthy or "being so clearly loved" by my abusers). I used the label to claim my trauma as my own, to understand it, to process it.
I now no longer use the label, because people like Lee -- and I suppose, like you -- used it to suggest I was an ableist looking to put myself "above" endogenic systems. And don't worry, you're certainly not alone. I have been told numerous times that I'm lucky. Because I'm traumatized. It makes me "more legit."
(Again. Always by endogenic systems.)
Now... again... if Lee were to say anti-endos... yeah no it's still not correct, but at least I wouldn't be personally offended. I would just be offended for my friends who accept endogenic plurality but call themselves anti-endo so they can focus on overcoming their disorders in peace.
And since traumagenic is falsely equated with “disabled” and “oppressed,” it begs the question, what happens if we stop being disabled or oppressed? What happens if we achieve all our most utopian dreams? That should be cause for jubilation, not existential crisis!
It begs the question, why suggest this entirely hypothetical thing that cannot happen? DID may go into remission, but that doesn't mean someone stops being disordered, or stops being oppressed. You can't change the trauma history. WHY the fuck was this part of this article?
At least the survivor communities, for all their problems, are ostensibly about hoping for healing and recovery someday: folks might be traumatized now, but one day maybe they won’t be. The traumagenic identity, though, reframes the focus from “this is where I am for the moment,” to “this created me.” That is a static, unchanging identity. A creation can not be undone.
IDK fam, for me, I said, "Trauma led to my disorder, and I cannot change my past, but I can grow from this trauma and claim it as my own AND STILL BE A BOSS ASS BITCH." Something something how MOTHER FUCKING ABLEIST ARE YOU???
It’s one thing to show a respect for our origins, to accept their role in our lives. But I don’t want to have my identity forever framed as a horrific conception story. And I certainly don’t want my community and sense of self to hinge on my suffering, because that means I am incentivized to suffer. If the whole point of disability activism is to make disabled lives better, I sure as hell ain’t picking an identity that encourages the reverse!
"Well, at least Lee said it was their identity! Right? Clearly this is all just about HIS interpretation of traumagenic as a label for himself!"
Which is what I WOULD say, if this wasn't one entire article slandering traumagenic systems, period.
And every trauma-based community I’ve been in, or researched, has had the problem of equating suffering as identity, even if they didn’t codify it like traumagenics have.
Gee... I wonder why the trauma-based communities identify with their trauma and suffering... It really is a fucking mystery, ain't it? And does that mean EVERYONE in those communities EVERY TIME, Lee? Or are you overgeneralizing for the shock value?
I want my identity and community to be founded on more than pain or oppression. I want to build on the good things my plurality brings me—my friends, my partners, my inner family, my art. Those, I hope, will prove to be a more solid, long-lived foundation than suffering.
Then I've got news for you, Lee -- the plural community isn't for you, either. Because while I'm trashing on this, I have seen cases where people make their suffering and oppression their entire personality -- regardless of origin label.
Need we forget "the future should be singlet"? Need we forget "pluralphobia"? Need we forget "traumagenic embitterment"? (Yes, we should forget all of those things, I'm still trying to find that bleach for my brain...)
GOD FUCK HOW AM I NOT EVEN HALFWAY DONE SCROLLING THIS FUCKING ABLEIST WEBPAGE?
God, okay, FOR MY ENERGY AND SANITY, the rest will be bullet points and just summarizing some of my ideas and thoughts, I can't:
Many endogenic systems do appropriate or have supported the appropriation other cultures (particularly tulpamancers) but the claims that all endogenic systems are appropriating multiplicity are just stupid and show a distinct lack of knowledge for the history of these communities.
The cultural experiences of plurals would differ somewhat from the cultural experiences of strictly DID systems, I feel. For instance, plurals don't have to deal with, oh, IDK, decades of people trying to prove your existence is made up by therapists. Only the last year or so of syscourse seems to be accusing endogenic systems of being made up by therapists.
"Footnote 2: Explaining the full twisted history of the social pressures that spawned “endogenic” is beyond the scope of this essay; for more details, see the Lunastus Collective, 2014; and Lee, 2019." And, yknow, a literal decade of syscourse about it, including traumagenic systems once again being told they're faking their distress and frustrations over something. Super casual folks. (Side note, sounds like Lee fucking hates endogenic as a term. Shoutout to the one thing we agree on****)
UGH. OKAY.
So... my conclusion about that little tidbit is that it was horrifically fucking ableist toward traumagenic systems, encourages the idea that all traumagenic systems are ableist anti-endos, and I am thoroughly fucking disgusted to have read that whole thing.
And, last but not least:
Five: "Neither psychiatry nor the greater community of plurals see trauma history as an important distinction in determining whether someone is plural."
Believe it or not, I want to try to just... try to end this on a happier note. Something I might be able to hold onto hope with.
I firmly believe that plurality exists, and that trauma histories are not important in the grand scheme of "if someone is plural." However, someone's trauma history can also be vital to their plurality, and this should never be ignored.
For instance: me. I am... someone who frankly refuses to use the term plural now, and refuses to identify with that label, due to the harassment that I have received for being a DID system. But, nonetheless, I am still multiple beings within one body, and I can acknowledge I fit the label in spirit, if not in truth.
My trauma is vital to my plurality. If I was not traumatized, I wouldn't be plural. No ifs, ands, or buts.
I find that a joyful thing. Maybe other folks don't get it -- I highly doubt Lee does, based on what he wrote. I KNOW a large portion of the #pluralgang community doesn't, or at least, didn't in the years 2015-2019 when I was participating in system spaces originally.
But it is my truth. And I shouldn't be barred from it simply because I am someone who is traumagenic and has suffered*****.
If I wanted to be Publicly Plural(tm), then I would be doing that trauma history included. And I would be offended by those who implied that my trauma wasn't important to that identity. Because it is, to me -- it's something I have BUSTED MY ASS to accept. To reconcile. To grow with -- not through.
And everything written in that goddamn horrendous essay invalidated that.
and that, OP, is why I just wrote this essay.
Hope you have a good timezone, wherever you are. Me, I'm heading to bed and praying the trauma-induced amnesia takes this god-forsaken post out of my mind soon.
I want to add a couple things. Thank you @circular-bircular for all the work you put into this.
This post is from my early days of syscourse, so it's got a bit more of an anti lean, but LB Lee has zero accreditation. He's a comic writer and blogger. That's it. He can't seem to make up his mind about what the history actually is, which tells me he's talking out of his ass a lot of the time.
I also know that one of my mods has spoken to him before, and he's been corrected on a lot of this, and he just doesn't seem to care.
I don't think OP fully appreciates what the natural and empowered multiple movement really was. This movement spawned the endogenic community that we know and love today, with all of its issues.
"That only started in 2014 on tumblr and was unheard of elsewhere"
... dude.
You just erased and ignored ALL of the cruel things the empowered and natural movement did to MPD systems.
It was happening. It IS happening. It's been happening since the 80s.
How dare you.
You even linked Pavilion Hall, but it's so biased and untrue that I actually can't believe this is happening. Here's another post with a less biased take on the history. @pluraldeepdive looks to be redoing a lot of their essays, but I would still suggest reading through it if you haven't before. You might be genuinely shocked by what you see IN ARCHIVES coming out of those communities.
THIS is what antis are mad about-- this erasure of the horrible history that makes it impossible for us to move forward. We will never move forward until we can acknowledge the problems in those years.
This NEEDS to be an opportunity for both sides to talk and listen.
And Circ said it already. We don't need to invalidate the trauma basis of DID to validate endogenic systems. DID is a trauma disorder.
Systempunk was made to specifically have a space away from endos, not even to exclude them from the general punk space. They already had a punk tag (pluralpunk) and yet they still insist on invading the systempunk tag.
What? Is it because it has "punk" in the name? No, obviously not, because even when we made tags that didn't have punk in them, they still invaded the space, took it over and mocked us while doing so.,
It doesn't matter if being endo is punk or not, what matters is the outright disrespect of boundaries that endos present.
If someone was triggered by something you said, so they asked you to stop using that word around them, or moved to a different space/stopped talking to you in order to not be triggered again, YOU WOULDN'T FOLLOW THEM RIGHT?!
So why, why on this beautiful planet do endos consistently insist on invading spaces that are explicitly not for them, and then turn around and say that they are the ones being harassed hm?
Make it make sense.
alright, this doesn’t really seem like it’s asking in good faith, but we’ll assume it is anyway.
- looks to us like systempunk was coined by an exclusively anti endo system who explicitly states that all endo systems are either faking or denying their own trauma. seems pretty exclusionary to us.
- yes, we and others have posted in the tag because of the word “punk.” because being anti endo is not punk. we have been active in the punk scene for almost a decade at this point, and are pretty sure we have a good idea what punk does and does not mean or stand for. punk is a pretty loose concept, but at its core, it is about rejecting the establishment, embracing diversity, and living boldly, authentically, and unapologetically… which is kind of the opposite of what many anti endos stand for.
- what other tags have endos invaded? show us one please.
- the block button exists. posting in a tag is not something exclusive to certain groups. any system who is punk should feel welcome to post in a tag that is literally called systempunk if they want to. if someone is bothered by others identifying as a system in ways they don’t agree with, that is their own problem.
- also what endos are posting in that tag? like where are they? because we have mostly seen trauma-formed systems using those tags.
we aren’t fond of the anti endo tendency to call anyone who disagrees with their views endogenic. by doing this you are denying and fakeclaiming the trauma histories of many of us traumagenic systems who uplift, affirm, and support other forms of plurality. calling fellow trauma survivors endogenic just because you don’t agree with their beliefs only stands to further polarize us and stoke anger and bitterness. it’s not cool and, well, it’s not very punk of you.
radical system acceptance. inclusivity and equality for everyone. a willingness to learn and accept people with different backgrounds and experiences. solidarity, compassion, and lifting each other up. to us, that’s punk. and yeah, endos will always belong in punk spaces. exploring plural frameworks outside of societal expectations is punk af. sorry not sorry.
(p.s. it is not ableist to explore the experience of being more than one. like sorry, but it’s just not. dissociative disorders are so much more than just alter disorders. and if you think otherwise, maybe you have some internalized ableism of your own to work through, not to mention internalized racism and xenophobia.)
(starting off, we are a traumagenic did system. we have did.)
endogenic systems are absolutely punk and they belong in punk spaces (pluralpunk, systempunk, whatever) and here’s why:
- punk is about embracing who you are and living your life authentically and unapologetically
- punk is about not letting other people dictate how you live your life and who you can be
- punk is about radical acceptance, equality, and solidarity
- punk is about rejecting authority and the establishment (and yes, this includes the medical establishment which is often ableist and causes disabled people real, long lasting harm)
there is no room for anti endos in punk. being anti endo literally is being anti punk. learn more about what punk means, and do better.
some of yall are so obsessed with this idea that all endogenic systems are a group of child abusers and groomers. that they're gonna abuse all children, that they're gonna emotionally neglect their own children, ect. you've made them into a god damn boogeyman in your mind that you can't think for them as a person, and in the process you fundamentally misunderstand why abuse happens and also the concept of endogenic systems as a whole. but, some of yall are so deep in the sunk cost thought fallacy that i doubt this post will change anything. you're just gonna work yourself up into a frenzy again and again and then cry about the fact that your therapist is genuinely wondering why you're so pressed all the time by people living their lives.
if a medical professional wants to be shitty, they will use any reason they can think of. we have personal experience with medical abuse with schizophrenia used as an excuse, as well as the movie split. there's still many that will use the satanic panic and the actions of the false memory foundation. but i understand why you go after endogenic systems. it's a lot easier to harrass an individual or a small group online, than it is to do any actual activism and work on making the lives of anyone better. it's a lot easier to harrass people online to distract yourself from your current abusive enviroment. it's just gotten so god damn nasty, yall are sounding like every bigot out there and using very similar rhetoric. it's gross. but i doubt anyone will listen.
I might get attacked for this but genuinely the plural community has a racism problem??
A huge thing that kinda slowed down my syscovery was seeing how white plurals would say racial slurs and excuse it with "oh my headmate is poc!" be fucking serious, on top of that you guys never really give room to poc system voices?? any major plural channel/resource is made up of white systems.
while there is a racism issue on both ends of syscourse, it also feels like anti endos ignore cultural plurality for the sake of their white psychiatrist's dsm-5
On the pro-endo side there will literally be white plurals defending the use of (radqueer) transracial and cultural appropriation, check your privilege
if you feel offended or uncomfortable by this, you might have some shit to reflect on
Let's face it. Not everyone uses the term "system" to mean to same thing. For some people, it exclusively means someone with a complex dissociative disorder (DID/OSDD/etc.). For some people, it means anyone who experiences a plurality of people, parts, or identities within the same body.
These two definitions for the same word are like oil and water, apples and oranges. CDDs are caused by trauma, so "system" in the context of exclusively-CDDs invalidates people who use the other definition. Not all experiences of inner people/parts is caused by trauma, or ascribed to a disorder, so "system" in this context invalidates the people who use the other definition.
When you see "system" as being exclusively CDDs, you see people claiming that CDDs aren't disorders, you see people claiming that CDDs aren't caused by trauma, you see people claiming that they have CDDs without the disorder or trauma. It's triggering, it's isolating, it's scary.
But it's not what they're actually saying.
It’s important to understand this if you’re engaging in syscourse. Otherwise, you’re just going to feel hurt all the time. There's so many posts that aren't talking about CDDs at all and someone comes onto it shouting things about CDDs. Vice versa. All because of terminology.
Not everyone uses the same terms to mean the same thing. Terms change over time, and you have to understand that. Even within the CDD community this happens so much. The community nowadays likes to use “host” to mean the part that fronts the most, but twenty years ago people often used “host” to mean a part that they thought existed before all the other parts, and many clinicians believed that this part didn’t front hardly at all. Years back, the concept of someone having a system of parts was used in reference to CDDs so much that it was often what people automatically thought of. Now, it’s a common framework of various therapies like IFS, for disordered experiences like PTSD and trauma-based psychosis, and for non-disordered plurality.
Before 2014, "endogenic systems" were called natural plurals. Tumblr has always preferred the term "system", meanwhile I've been on other social media platforms that majorly prefer the term "plural" and some that prefer "multiple" over anything else.
I’ve seen so many people identify as “anti-endo” even though they believe in endogenic plurality, and also people who identify as “pro-endo” but think that all endogenics are actually disordered with hidden trauma.
Yes, this can all be frustrating and confusing; I’ve been fucked over by it many times as an autistic person. I often struggle to understand what people mean when they rely on labels to communicate their opinions, usually because I’ve met people who use the same exact terms to communicate an entirely different opinion. So much of syscourse literally centers around certain labels and who they apply to. Yet, people can't even agree on what these labels mean.
Does it really matter that much...?
I guarantee you guys within the next twenty years, you’re going to see some of the terms you’re fighting over now be changed to mean something entirely different. Time moves on, things change. It’s just not worth hurting others over.
I hope that we can all learn to be a little gentler with each other regardless of what terms and labels we use. In a community so full of trauma survivors, who already have to deal with so much of society disbelieving and hijacking our stories...I think we need the gentleness.
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