So, I wanted to rant about ascended Astarion a bit. I think a lot of people try to look at it and maybe only see some of his dialogue, and decide that because his decision was to ascend, then this is the best one for him, or for the romance. This is specifically for a romance perspective. Btw, ascend him away, do it, I am not saying it is a bad choice, I am saying that it is an interesting one that should be seen clearly because it is written so so well.
First of all, I want to say that the core of this path, in my opinion, is confirming his fear. The world is NOT kind. The world is cruel, and the only thing that can protects him is power.
The note on him wanting more vengeance is that he is scared, deep down. He will also refuse to say Cazador's name, something that spawn Astarion can and will discuss with player character.
By letting him ascend, you did not see him. You did not see the moments of guilt and hesitation that he showed to you in his journey through the palace, or through the game in general. You did not see that he could be something else or that he did not need power to feel safe. I know some people do not like the "persuasion" choice, but the sentence is so short, it is just a moment, where the MC will show him that he CAN be something different. It is not easy returning to a place of such horribly long abuse, be surrounded by such violence, and remember that just a few seconds before... well, he was admitting that he saw himself in the spawns in the cells, as something pathetic that needs to be destroyed.
LOVE
Something interesting in the vampire ascended route is how much you can talk about love. Two of the options in particular are at the first night, if you can ask him what he learnt from this experience.
If you select that you hoped he would learn to love you, then this is his answer, which makes it seem like the game almost calls out the player: Is this not enough? Then this is not the route for you.
He is offering you this eternity and power and that is love for him. Later, he will also tell you "I love you, isn't this what you want to hear?". He knows what you want, and he is giving it to you, but how much of this is what he wants?
Differently from spawn Astarion there is no way to ask him here, no way to complete his arc with the third and last "What do you want?" question.
The other is related to love, you can tell him that you hoped he would learn that sex and relationships are not about power, to which he angrily replies that EVERYTHING is about power. By letting him ascend, you confirmed to him that this is true. Power is what he needed to be safe, power is what he needed to escape. Power over others is the only thing that can work and basically... exists. So even sex and relationships are about power.
In the talk just after you let him ascend, you get something similar, where he looks at you and says that you, like all the lowly creatures who desire to serve, are also awaiting his command. He sees everything as a power struggle, now.
The third mention of love is actually after you break up with him. You can see it here in this video. He pronounce the word "love" with disgust, and says that that is the game he knows, so he will play it, but that he respects you for not allowing him to destroy your love.
SELF HATRED
As I said at the start, this choice of letting him ascend is based in reinforcing the idea that the world is dangerous, sex and relationships are power struggles (and he WILL turn yours into one too), and that there is no kindness, that he should be scared.
There is also a deep level of self hatred and disgust. He wants to cut ties completely with his old self, so much that if you tell him you miss his former self he will be shocked. The dialogue in screenshots is not enough to convey the emotion so I'd recommend checking a video:
Here too:
Instead of embracing the journey and continuing, the cuts himself from his past self completely. This is quite heartbreakingly realistic.
A TRANSACTION
Another thing that is easy to notice is the transactional feel of this relationship. After he expresses surprise that you let him kill all those people, he asks you what he can do for you, what you desire. One of the options is "I want your body", to which he answers "You earned it."
This is the character who had gone through a whole arc about how sex used to be transactional (he offers you his body in exchange for the bite, if you get him to proposition before the party, he seduces you for protection), and had to ask to the player to go slow, because he never really knew what intimacy really was without sex as something transactional being involved.
Here, he is offering you his body as something you earned, as a reward.
Regarding the sex scene... seeing both this and the spawn one with the free camera mod, I could see that the movements are the same - the difference is that ascended continues to show sex, and they are naked... and spawn is more hesitant. You can see it in the way he hesitates after he pushes Tav down.
You can compare the videos (ascended here, THEY ARE NAKED use caution, and spawn here). The scenes are like NIGHT AND DAY.
Ascended Astarion does not push you, he does not crawl over you, he does not even seem to make much eye contact (images of ascended is from the video I posted the link of).
Look at the eye contact in spawn Astarion.
The whole scene is completely different.
OWNERSHIP
"How is being beholded to one another too different from being enslaved"
This is one of the things ascended Astarion tells the player if you break up with him, after a couple of nights. He will reveal that he would have used your trust and love until you were nothing. There are many MANY ways Astarion expresses ownership over you.
One example comes from meeting Araj:
Here he is referring to the fact that Araj thought him your slave, but now it is you who belongs to Astarion.
Another small moment is when you can ask him "Are you going to compel me like Cazador did with you?" He doesn't even reassure you, or deny it, he tells you "Why would I need you, you are going to be obedient." The key word here is obedient.
This is reminiscent of one of Cazador's rules "Thou shalt obey me in all things".
Coincidentially, a few lines after, Astarion even tells you his version of Cazador's third rule "thou shalt not leave my side":
And "Thou art mine":
Notice that you can ask him in game "you made me a spawn, what will happen to him" and he won't reply, he will just correct you on the word, saying that consort is so much better. There is another two occasions where he will talk about his desires to what will happen with you. One time he mentions that he wishes he could sequester you in his palace, but that will have to wait, and in another occasion you can remark (after break up) that he would have treated you like furniture and he does not deny. If you play as Durge and you choose Bhaal, he will laugh about you sitting naked in his lap, while he gives order to his horde, from HIS palace.
There is an ownership in the whole dialogue choices of this path that is really hard to miss.
BREAKING UP... 4 days later
Another interesting thing is that if you choose the harshest break up options he will say "There you are, the real you shows himself at last." And yet, indipendently from it, any kind of break up will end up in an aftermath scene.
This scene will trigger three nights (or two?) after, and Astarion will say some very interesting thing. I posted the whole scene here, but basically... he will reveal that he respects you for breaking up with him, he did not think you had it in him.
The difference with the wisdom check is glaring:
Keep in mind that Ascended Astarion (pre-sex) has SO MANY options to break up with him. Almost 4/5 options are confrontational. While for spawn Astarion you have no option at all to break up with him at least not until after the final scene (while Ascended Astarion has both).
CAZADOR's WORDS
I already talked about how Astarion's words kind of betray the start of his intentions to almost adopt (maybe unconsciously) Cazador's rules. This is not surprising given that the game explicitly calls his story a cycle of abuse and power, and like Cazador's got his rules from his previous master, Astarion did from Cazador. I also noticed in other moments that Astarion uses similar words to Cazador's.
Pet. One of the things Astarion will often call the player is pet. This is something similar to using "pup" in act 1, during the party, but as far as I remember never repeated (Cazador also calls Astarion a "disobedient pup"). The important thing is that you can call him out on it "I am not your pet". He says he is just joking, life is a joke!
Little wretch, cattle, stupid. There are all things that Cazador called him or used in general. I will need to dig deeper to find them all, but the most interesting one was for me "pet". I might be wrong, but I think this is something Astarion uses only post ascenscion.
KARLACH
I don't want to talk too much about Karlach because I did not play as her yet, but I know that she has a whole new path for this... and it is not a good one. Astarion's first sex night with her has him horribly aggressive and nasty, because of his own insecurities (confirmed by the devnotes). And Astarion's sex night when he ascend is even worse.
He will be so overcome by his new power to believe that he can bite her anyway, even with her engine. He will end up hurting himself and immediately accusing her of being broken, not normal, of reuining everything. Even after Karlach tries to tell him that it is not her fault.
Absolutely horrible. Given Karlach is the player character, the same would have happened to any Tav is something had prevented Astarion from biting them.
You can see the video here.
WHAT DO YOU WANT?
To conclude, Astarion's character goes through a complete arc of finding out what he wants and being seen as spawn Astarion, while ascended Astarion goes through a complete arc of finding out that power is the one thing that can save him and protect him, and obtaining it, so much that he basically owns you too.
It is two completely journey, and I think both with a satisfying conclusion.
One follows the trails of asking Astarion "What do you want?" and the other follows the trail of Astarion asking you what you want and telling you this is what you might want.
In the case of ascended Astarion, the final "what do you want" (after act 1, where he deflects, and act 2 where he says he doesn't know, he never tried it before) is "You, this", this being the safety you offered, being seen. He remarks about being seen, in particular.
For ascended Astarion, there is no option to ask him "what do you want" again, but the character still concludes the arc by using the same words he used in act 1. "This is what you want, isn't it?", where he offers the player this fantasy and the player just has to accept, and say yes.
There's two very valid endings for the character we all love, I don't want anyone interacting with my posts trying to argue that one is the "right" option or why you're bad for liking one over the other. And this goes BOTH ways. Yes, I prefer Ascendant storyline. Doesn't mean the Spawn storyline isn't also a great ending for Astarion that I've enjoyed exploring, too. Even if you want to argue in defense of Ascension, I don't want the drama. I am up for a discussion about the pros and cons of either ending at any time, I just want it to stay civil.
At the end of the day we all like the same fictional guy
"I want to dedicate my first piece of art in the BG3 fandom to LarianStudios and NeilNewbon Astarion's story has helped me through difficult times, and Neil's performance has given me hope that I, too, can find a place for my work in the gaming industry, if i keep trying"
"I want to dedicate my first piece of art in the BG3 fandom to LarianStudios and NeilNewbon Astarion's story has helped me through difficult times, and Neil's performance has given me hope that I, too, can find a place for my work in the gaming industry, if i keep trying"
"I want to dedicate my first piece of art in the BG3 fandom to LarianStudios and NeilNewbon Astarion's story has helped me through difficult times, and Neil's performance has given me hope that I, too, can find a place for my work in the gaming industry, if i keep trying"
"I want to dedicate my first piece of art in the BG3 fandom to LarianStudios and NeilNewbon Astarion's story has helped me through difficult times, and Neil's performance has given me hope that I, too, can find a place for my work in the gaming industry, if i keep trying"
i still hate yâall bitches who say oc x canon shit is cringe like bitch you have ANY idea how flattered i would be if someone made an oc for my fantasy world? how utterly PSYCHED my ass would be they loved a character so much they fleshed out one themselves just 2 be with one of mine? fuck yâall haters
And whata fucking bout it? Who gives a fuck? Does it hurt you, does it break into your home and steal your meemawâs ashes? Does it spit on your holy symbol? No? Then shut the fuck up
I love how much of a complex and intricate character Astarion is.
You can approach his story in so many different ways, and it will still make sense, depending on your perception of events and what we are given canon-wise.
I don't believe there is a singular, correct way to handle his trauma. Everyone is different. We all pour bits and pieces of ourselves into him, as our experiences shape how we interact with his story.
It's truly fascinating to read all these different perspectives surrounding him.
It looks like Larian changed the background music in this dramatic Astarion and Cazador cinematic in a recent patch.
i looked through the recent patch notes and hotfixes and couldn't find any reference as to why it was changed. I think the original music was much better suited to this scene.
In the epilogue, Spawn Astarion doesn't need to remind Tav/Durge that they're in a relationship because, unlike Ascended Astarion, he knows people can and should exist outside said relationship.
You're more than your relationship with your significant other.
But then again, possessiveness and suffocating control is what Ascended Astarion is all about, so it's fitting that he behaves like that.
Yeah, spawn Astarion understands that you're both your own person with diffrent lives and everything. He truly loves you and actually understands the meaning of love. He truly cares about you and everything about you, he's very hopefuly about his life from now on because you will be part it. You two are equals in the relationship. (remember Velioth's rules?)
A Astarion considers you an extension of himself imo, you are his possession, his everything, he decides for you, and you affirm this once you kneel for him. He's also very codependent on you. Oh and his idea of "love" is vastly different. Ps, AA is ready to be "enslaved" with you to be with you.
You either choose true love where you get appreciated for who you actually are, to be with somebody who sees you as an equal, a partner.
Or you choose a possessive vampire lord who still cares but from now on he will be the one deciding on almost everything for you, because you are beneath him.
80% of Astarion discourse would disappear if people would make peace with the idea that SA survivors can like sex or engage with kink. The other 20% would disappear if people would just block depictions of him they're uncomfortable with or find tasteless but that isn't happening in any fandom because people have been conditioned to think finding something gross must be indicative of a moral failing lol
Anyways someone model swapped Astarion and Scratch and had Astarion playing fetch and the discource this caused on twitter was astronomical. That shit had me laughing for 10 minutes straight today
Talking to the vampire spawn without Astarion after you kill Cazador gives you dialogue! Some of them even have small conversations with you (as seen with Leon). Yousen will talk to you too, but he wonât really say much (and thereâs no sound associated with him). My analysis of it is:
Violet- Doesnât have much to say, except that sheâll live beyond what Cazador did to her and she can âfinally bloomâ
Petras- a bit more confused, seems to want you to answer for him? If you say youâll spare him if he spares innocents heâll be like. Yeah I can make do.
Leon- kind of the same as Petraâs, but he seems more coherent/polite and willing to have a conversation with you.
Yousen- bugged, no sound (probably no V/A honestly bc he doesnât show up anywhere else). Pretty much just asks if theyâre free to go.
Aurelia- Begs for a chance at survival, attests that they arenât a threat. This is where you can say theyâre victims too.
Dalyria- you can talk to her too, sheâll thank you repeatedly for their freedom and attest that youâre giving them another chance.
Super fascinating stuff, more crumbs for the vampire spawn fans.
Some notes and dialogues from the area before meeting Sebastian and Cazador (from the datamined dialogue).
You can find the previous posts here
ROOMS
The comment Astarion makes when he enters the bedrooms has guests written as "guests". Given he says our I suppose this was specifically for the victims he took.
Regarding the Chamberlain, we know that his partner killed herself after finding him poisoned (he poisoned himself but should still be alive, in theory). The dialogue files have a dialogue/narration for the lover who was actually a werewolf:
She drank the potion that seemingly (probably) stopped the Chamberlain's vital functions.
BALLROOM
First of all... if you speak with the dead you find out a bit about the party in the ballroom, and apparently Cazador really was obsessed with physical beauty.
CELLS
There is no particularly interesting note in the meeting with the Gur children, but I thought it was interesting that they can comment on how cold they are. I thought vampires and spawns felt no cold, but apparently, they do. Another interesting dialogue I think was cut from the game or at least I did not hear it, but one of the prisoners in the cells say:
The note says "as if about to get beaten" which implies that Cazador visited his spawns in the cells now and then, at least to torture them.
Near the cell you can also check the rules, and the list of names for all the prisoners. Ascended Astarion actually "smugly" thanks all the victims who died for him to ascend:
CAZADOR
Some bits that i found interesting in Cazador's fight or generally about Cazador... one is the fact that a servant will comment on Cazador having rages, and if you remember that is also what Cazador says of Astarion, to mock him (asking the player if he had ever seen Astarion's fits of rage).
While Syrin here is talking about Astarion, I do not think they are referring to the knowledge that Astarion has fits of rages, but that Cazador had (otherwise they would say something like "will he still have rages").
Another small note about Cazador, to get a feeling of what he thinks of Astarion:
(also the note to "I will ascend" says that Cazador leans forward and whispers it in Astarion's ear, which we do not scene in the scene but would have been quite cool).
In the Astarion playthrough, he can ask Cazador to beg to not be killed. And the note says that Cazador really does not believe that Astarion will kill him. That is probably why he seemed to calm.... he really though Astarion would not harm him:
If you pass the intimidation, there is a line with the note "Cazador is starting to doubt", and then Cazador will actually beg by trying to convince Astarion that he saved him, he gave him eternal life.
In another option in the dialogue we also have Cazador complaining about Astarion's prattle and his voice, saying that that is the reason why the other spawns hate him:
I talked about some of the other stuff before, but here some more interesting things listed:
in the game Yousen is bugged, but in the files he actually says that he has been one of Cazador's spawns for 60 years (you can talk to the spawns if you kill Cazador without Astarion and each has a dialogue, you can see it here)
Cazador will tell Astarion to straighten up ("do not slouch before me, boy") and the devnotes say that Astarion does it
In the Astarion game, if you do not intimidate Petras after killing Cazador he will actually threaten Astarion
So I found out something today that is a "wtf" moment for Ascended Astarion at the epilogue party included in the latest patch from Larian.
I couldn't upload the clip for some weird reason, so screenshots will have to do (I'm sorry about that).
Details are below the cut, and hopefully, this doesn't spoil it for anyone who has yet to get to the new patch five content. The post has also been tagged with spoiler tags.
Astarion turning into a bat and killing Volo:
Sorry, Volo, but you're toast, buddy (or is that bat food?)
Then something astonishing happens: check out Withers in the background walking towards Astarion.
He engages Astarion and says the dialogue above. Understandably, ascended Astarion is in his 'defensive body posture.' đ
And then it cuts to Astarion and a portal of some type opening up behind him
And Withers politely tells Astarion he's done with his crap đ§
Little ol' Withers is proving just how powerful he is... and if you cross him, there will be hell to pay. But poor Astarion, I am so sorry, but ascended or not, you're not winning this one.
This may be a banishment spell. But it could also be a portal spell to another location in Faerûn. I doubt we'll ever know, as this is right at the end before the credits.
Also, shed a tear for poor Volo... he didn't deserve to go out like that đ„
