we all know that astarion has the curse of being the evil-aligned/anti-hero archetype and the fandom treating him like some delicate innocent. that’s just something that happens in fandom spaces. it’s been happening for years. there’s nothing we can do. yes i know i get it.
but what really gets under my skin more than the deliberate mischaracterization of such an intricate and cool character is the fact that sometimes the community literally sacrifices his sense of humor. which astounds me because his sense of humor is what initially made players invested in who he was as a character!
he always has something funny to say— even if it’s only funny to him. he laughs at his own jokes and he gets defensive and butthurt if you make jokes at his expense. he is a hypocrite. he is hilarious.
less of him being like this tradhusband/untouchable figurehead of goodness and more of him being flawed and funny. cancel me idgaf i love canon astarion.
I was taking screenshots for something completely different when this particular moment caught my eye.
In his Origin run, Radiant Hopeful Astarion chooses to save Baldur’s Gate and its people, even after having “lost the opportunity” to Ascend. He could still “make up for it” by dominating the Netherbrain and the world, becoming the Absolute and therefore truly untouchable, while keeping all the benefits of the tadpole. Yet his personal choice — and the choice supported by the game’s script — is to destroy it.
I’m not saying this to argue that Ascended Astarion isn’t convinced of his choice (this remains true regardless of my personal preferences and my own interpretation of Ascension). Rather, I’m saying that if he chooses to give up Ascension, he’s equally convinced of that choice and remains committed to it, regardless of whether he’s in a romance or not.
From the very beginning, Astarion frequently encouraged Tav/Durge to take control of the cult. Yet after confronting Cazador and coming to terms with himself, power is no longer his sole focus. He has reevaluated his priorities. For someone who once believed power was the only thing standing between him and safety, that choice says a great deal.
Interviewer: Since we are there, I'am curious what it was like writing so many different romance arcs? It does affect certain things. I was curious, how did those come about? Who did you talk to? How did you make it logically consistent within the world? And was there a particular story that you liked, that you thought was is the way should have gone?
Stephen Rooney: We had a narrative director come in, they then went on to write the Dark Urge, but kind of to work on the romance stuff, specifically with the different origins. So I worked with them on figuring out and they came in kind of later in the project. We had already started some of the romances, but maybe kind of polishing out the romance arcs, and making sure that they were fun, making sure they were interesting.
With Astarion, how you go about romancing him is difficult kind of itself. He's such a flirt, he has such kind of energy of someone who's trying to seduce you. Basically it is what he's doing all the time to everybody. So how you take that and then how you flip it to a genuine romance was fairly challenging, because you had such a strong mask that he would wear the entire time.
And, as you romance Astarion, you can romance the more good version, the more good ending of his story, where he stays a vampire spawn. Spoilers, if anyone hasn't played the game in the last two or three years, the more evil ending where he gets greedy, he's power hungry, he becomes essentially a vampire lord, he kind of replaces Cazador, and I definitely perfer the first one. Like it has that bittersweet energy that I love so much. Because it has that sense of he's learned how to care about someone who's gone on this adventure with you. He had all of this because he reverts to kind of a normal vampire spawn at the end of it, he loses his ability to walk in the sun. He loses a lot of the cool stuff that has made him an unusual for a vampire spawn. There's a tragedy that I really love, but it feels kind of emotionally satisfying, emotionally true.
I am biased, I ended up taking kind of bunch of sick leave towards the end of the project, so the same writer that did the Dark Urge did some of Astarion's kind of more Ascended arc romance stuff. I tried to go over as much of it as i could, but I definitely perfer the other arc.
Interview with the Lead Writer for Astarion from BG3
I had never read this interview before. It’s fascinating to hear the perspective of someone who helped shape the character. And it’s also lovely to see how much Stephen Rooney seems to genuinely care about Astarion—you can tell just by the way he talks about him.
I was reading one of your other posts about Astarion and you mentioned some things about his predatory instincts. That reminded me of something I thought of before in regards to Astarion's big approval boost if you let him bite the first time you have sex with him that I don't see get discussed much. Not only was he dealing with being forced to sleep with his victims, but he was doing it while being a starving vampire. He would have been struggling to keep control while getting up close and personal for extended periods of time with people filled with fresh blood on top of everything else, and then may have had to watch Cazador drink from them while he got his rotten rat as they "dined" together. Do you have any thoughts on this and the bite in the clearing?
Hello, and thank you for your message! I’ll try to answer as best as I can according to my understanding of the characters, and I hope it will help (and sorry for the many digressions!)
There’s quite a lot to unpack here, but I’ll try to be as clear as possible. I’m going to put some links to some of my older posts and to quote myself, so if you haven’t read those posts yet, I’d recommend you discover them to better understand my opinion here.
The Urge to Feed, Cazador's command and self-control
I think there’s something to be specified here: When Astarion was under Cazador’s power, he could not bite at will. Even if he wanted to bite his targets, it was physically impossible because Cazador forbade it. Vampire spawns cannot go against their master’s orders and will, and we know this was one of the rules:
In Astarion Origin, we understand that the bite night happens not just because Astarion is hungry (as you can see, he can go hunting beasts instead), but because he wants to see if he can go against his master’s rules, if he can actually bite a thinking creature.
But indeed, once he stats to drink, after so many years of starvation + the “natural” bloodlust of vampire spawns, it’s hard to stop. He has to ‘fight’ the bloodlust if he doesn’t want to kill his companions. But before biting them he can easily decide to not bite them.
So what does it teach us? That without Cazador’s power on him, Astarion can rather easily keep his fangs for himself, but when he starts drinking, it’s hard to stop. And I tend to believe that it’s something he has to learn, a form of self-control (which is at the core of this little fic of mine).
So when he was sleeping with people back then, he didn’t “struggle” to keep in fangs for himself, because he simply could not use them. That said, it was probably extremely torturous, as you said, to be so close to a living creature and being unable to satiate his painful hunger.
Another thing: apparently Astarion couldn’t watch Cazador drink on his targets; they were taken away and brought to Cazador’s chambers (and dungeons) when Astarion was done with them, and Astarion probably never saw his master drink from them.
Which isn't very surprising since Cazador never "killed" the victims and didn't want his spawns to know about it. So he took the victims away and told them that he simply fed on them.
Now there are several jars of blood in Cazador’s study, so I wouldn’t be surprised if the bastard filled his glass with humanoid blood while he “invited” Astarion to dine with him . Another way to torture him indeed.
In that regard, the “dine together" is also interesting. In act 1, if the PC tells Astarion that from now one he will feed from them, Astarion uses the “dine together” expression… Because here again, his diet remains controlled by someone else, or at least, that’s how he may see it (even unconsciously).
It's obviously sad, especially since the PC cannot know all this at this point. They offer Astarion to feed in order to help him and make sure he's happy, and Astarion does his best to pretend he's ok with this situation.
But having to rely on someone else to feed must be quite complicated for him, whether he consciously acknowledges it or not. Hence his contradicted and conflictual relation to biting.
But beyond the ptsd of having to "wait" until someone let him feed, there's also a lesson on self-control here. I'm not saying it's easy for him, I'm just saying we can see that Astarion is capable of controlling his "urge to feed on people".
As I said HERE: “Obviously he’d prefer to not have to rely on you to feed. Of course, he can still bite your enemies even if you told him he can feed on you, but that’s a question of game mechanics. If the PC tells him he'll feed on them, they never explicitly tell him he can feed during the fights. [Fortunately, you can have your own headcanons about it, and fill the gaps with your imagination.]”
Another detail: Even as a feral, starving spawn he could still keep himself around rats and didn't ultimately jump on the rodents. In fact, when you read his thoughts during the bite night, you can see that it was his master's orders - That Cazador "commanded" him feed on the rats, whether Astarion wanted it or not.
He can even recommend the Gur children to try the rats- meaning that he suspects they didn’t instinctively went for the rodents, although it’s clear that the children are torn by hunger, to the point that they can’t focus.
To me, those two examples indicate that even starving and "feral" vampire spawns won't always eat whatever creature they can find: if they're disgusted by a stinky rat, they won't ultimately eat the rodent, no matter how starving they are. So they're still some kind of "self-control" at stake here, at least when it comes to beasts.
But I would add that it's still possible to keep control with thinking creatures too: Except for the bite night, which is, again, more like a way for Astarion to "test" his freedom than an urge to bite the PC, he perfectly controls himself around the companions. I'm not saying he's not struggling, but he can even joke about it and play with the idea in a rather light way during the "tasting party" discussion.
He's even hopeful for the spawns in the cells, explaining to Sebastian that they all can learn to control themselves around people.
And don't take me wrong: I'm not saying it's easy for a vampire spawn to "resist the urge" to bite people - there must be a lot of struggles here that Astarion never mentions during the game. After all, Chessa makes it clear that her hunger is so painful that she can't even focus, comparing herself to a "beast".
And I wouldn't be surprised if Astarion went through the same state as Cazador's spawns (especially during that year in a tomb - but not only). But when the adventure begins, he can easily hunt animals from day one, and so does he. Of course, feeding on animals doesn’t give him the same strength and level of happiness, but it can still satiate him to a certain point. The bear's blood is strong enough to make him "drunk" after all, even if it doesn't taste as good as someone's blood.
He insists that the other spawns were not doomed to become a threat for the entire city - because he could learn to deal with his hunger, why could they not?
Now that they're free, there's no fatality anymore: it becomes a question of choice and personal responsibility.
Again, not saying there's no struggle in learning to control their "instinct" when a tender neck walks around - but it's clearly possible, and Astarion has proved it since Act 1. The vampire spawns weren't allowed to feed on people under Cazador's command, but they could feed on beasts - and yet, they didn't spend their nights hunting cats and rats. Beyond Cazador's command, there was also some self-control at stake back then.
The Hot vampire Fantasy and his conflicts with the act of biting
We also know that Astarion as a conflicted relationship to biting as a sensuous act. I already talked a lot about it here and here (I'd recommand you to read them to better understand my points).
On the one hand, feeding feels amazing, and if he trusts the PC and is attracted to them, there would obviously be something very enjoyable in this sort of intimacy.
But on the other hand, the act itself puts him in a position he struggles to appreciate: that of the hot vampire, a stereotypical role that turns him into some kind of walking fantasy, with people attracted to him for what he represents and not for who he truly is. A role he takes on more or less willingly during most of act 1 and a part of act 2, because he uses it as an asset, and also because he doesn’t really know how to do otherwise.
As I explained in the posts linked above: when you discuss how you're going to keep him fed, he’s probably conflicted if you tell him he can feed on you (hence the absence of approval and of disapproval). In truth, he’s playing the “hot vampire”, like he was taught to, because that’s what Cazador expected from him. That’s maybe what some of his sexual partners expected too (even though he couldn’t bite them back then).
When you tell him he can feed from you, he sees it as a sexual transaction: if he wants to feed, he has to indulge in a form of intimacy with you. BUT your character doesn’t know it; at this point you have only very little information about his past and his torments. You can’t know that he sees that way and he does everything he can to make you believe he’s happy with that option.
And the PC understands everything only in act 2, after the encounter with Araj: Vampires are sexy, being bitten by a sexy vampire is a kink, and he doesn’t really feel comfortable about it. To him, it feels like being used, even if he gets something from it. In other terms, it's like prostitution, it's about giving you some sort of carnal pleasure, of physical intimacy, so he can eat properly. And he's struggling with that concept. In Act 2, he no longer wants sex to define him, for all the reasons we progressively learn about.
But in act 1, it's too early for him to really acknowledge that. Besides, he needs you to want him.
The first night in the clearing
Now, the clearing scene....I already talked A LOT about it here, so I’ll start with quoting myself:
“But I believe that, as the night unfolds, he finds himself enjoying it.
Maybe it’s just me, but I tend to feel like he’s getting more like his playful and silly self when you let him bite you. Whereas if you trust him to not bite, he keeps on performing, in control, like he was told to do by Cazador.
If you let him bite you, you roll on the ground and he looks pleasantly surprised. And I think he starts to have fun here. And I think he can enjoy it even if he dissociates. As I said, the switch is automatic when the brain finds itself in a situation that represents some kind of danger or discomfort. For two hundred years, Astarion experienced sex in a way that was all but comfortable, sex he didn’t really want. It makes sense that his brain automatically switches off. Even though he’s having a good time here, intimacy itself is a trigger, no matter how much he’s enjoying it. It’s instinctive, just like flirting is instinctive to him, paradoxically.”
Now please, look at his different reactions to the PC's words about biting them.
It’s clear to me that he kinda “lets go” when the PC presents their neck, if only because they express a real trust in Astarion’s ability to control himself and they want to share this moment of intimacy with him.
At this point, he begins to trust the PC, and he’s surely attracted to them.
But that night is all part of his plan, and when the PC meets him in the clearing, he’s obviously wearing a mask: that of the seducer, that of the ‘hot vampire fantasy”. But look at his face when the PC lets him bite them, and they roll on the ground: he’s surprised, and he looks genuinely happy with how the situation unfolds; and I believe it's not just because his plan is working. After all, if the PC doesn't offer their neck, he keeps on performing in a more "classic" way -> plan is still working.
But when the PC tells him not to bite, he’s disappointed and puts an end to the meeting. Why? Because with that remark, the PC makes it clear that they don’t trust him. He’s ok with the PC if they don’t offer their neck, but if they warn him to not bite them, it not only creates a distance, but it also feels like the PC has no trust in him, considering him a ‘monster’ who needs to be kept on a leash.
Whereas, if they offer their neck, they prove him that they trust him (which is not only perfect for his plan, but I tend to believe that he might even genuinely appreciate sharing this intimacy with them, even if it's "tainted").
Of course, it doesn't keep him from dissociating (and I already talked at length about it in the post linked above), but I think it makes the experience much more enjoyable than what he expected. In any case, we know he sees this night as "special" and obviously enjoyable in spite of it all.
Did he compare his experience with the PC to the many experiences he had before with his targets? Probably.
Are there common points between them? Surely.
Is it so different because the PC lets him bite them? I wouldn't be so sure.
Although I'm convinced it makes the experience even more enjoyable for him, it's not that important for his general "plan" at this point.
After all, if the PC doesn't offer their neck during that first night, he doesn't disapprove, and doesn't put an end to the romance path. the neck offering simply allows him to believe that the PC trusts him - which explains the approval boost, but it doesn't determine how he feels towards the PC generally speaking. Don't forget how conflicted his feelings are when it comes to biting.
Now, are his "vampiric instincts" triggered by physical intimacy? Possibly, but that falls in the land of headcanons. If you want it to be a thing, it can - but there's nothing explicitly canon about it in the game.
And I do agree that it seem quite contradictory, since we also know how being the "walking vampire fantasy" bitters him. But Astarion himself is conflicted; for the first time in 200 years, he's free to decide for himself...
It makes sense to me that the man doesn't exactly know what he wants or how he feels about intimacy. That's why he prefers to take a break from sex after the confession scene. He needs to figure out what he actually wants to do with his intimacy - and it involves the intimacy of biting his lover as a kinky thing (that's why I like to imagine that from late act 1 and until the graveyard scene, he only bites their wrists when he needs to feed -> less intimate than the neck).
In any case, now that Astarion is free, it's also his responsibility to understand what he wants. That's what healing is about, defining his own boundaries and sticking with people who respect them. It's a long, chaotic path, with ups and downs. He'll probably make mistakes along the way, but those mistakes might also help him acknowledge what he truly wants for himself and his intimacy.
As he explains to his siblings, the choice is rather simple: Can you be more than what Cazador made of you (a staring, feral "monster", who uses their body to lure victims)? or can you become someone who is more like your "true self"? which implies, finding out who this "self" is, beyond starvation, beyond their "vampiric nature/instinct" and beyond the lessons Cazador forced upon them for so long.
Again, freedom means being responsible for yourself. That's why I'm not found of the idea of "infantilising" Astarion in his healing journey, even in act 1 when his motivations are questionable. Because that's also how he learns to find his true self, through mistakes and regrets, which ultimately lead to genuine apologies and open-hearted confessions: a first step in the rediscovery of his true identity, of his needs and feelings, without Cazador's shadows hovering above his mind.
So let's go back to the clearing: The PC "offers" their neck. They don't ask or command, they give him the possibility to bite. He doesn't have to. You can argue that he still feels like he has to bite them because he thinks that's what they expect of him, but the approval proves otherwise. You offer him to drink, he accepts because it feels good. It feels good to be satiated, it feels good to be trusted, and it probably begins to feel good to be with this person he begins to appreciate somehow....
Even if it's not all that clear to him at this point of the adventure.
I hope it makes sense! Feel free to ask if something's unclear 💙
Okay, I'm posting something on this account for the first time in like, a decade to clarify what I meant by making this ask. No one follow me for this you're not getting anything else. And if anyone that followed me way back in the day is still around and didn't sign up for BG3 vampire content, sorry and keep scrolling
So, I did the original anon message. Thank you for answering, and I appreciate the detailed analysis! I think you misunderstood me though.
By "struggling", I didn't mean struggling not to physically sink his teeth into someone's neck. He can't even if he wanted too! I meant struggling to keep his composure and continue to act like a normal elf person that wanted to be having sex.
He mentions that in the worst periods of his hunger, he was "all but robbed of speech and reason". Even though he probably wasn't quite that far gone when he was picking people up, his thirst levels would have been made worse by being so close to someone. Imagine being starving and having to put your mouth on a steak?
Yes, Astarion has exceptional control for a vampire. I am pretty sure that this is how he got it.
He couldn't physically bite anyone. That doesn't guarentee that there were no times when he was a young starving spawn that hadn't developed that control yet when someone he was with suddenly saw him go feral and hiss at them, try to lunge forward but end up struggling against his own muscles contorting and constricting on him as his body just wouldn't physically let him do it (and yes, we have evidence in game that this is how the compulsion works). Or, even just suddenly go moody, or yank himself away from them or shove them off when he couldn't take it anymore and then have to try to recover. And what would Cazador have done to him for breaking the illusion?
I think Astarion got his control the hard way. From having to "keep smiling" through it over and over again, and discovering the consequences for failure.
Not only was he being forced into prostitution, but the act of going through with it would have been incredibly painful in the best of circumstances. Because he had to keep performing all while dealing with the hightened effects of vampiric thirst.
I think that Cazador did this on purpose.
The bite in the clearing
So...I kind of disagree with you on this one. I think that part of it definitely has to do with you trusting him, but the jump in approval is way to big for that. Especially because of his issues with the whole "sexy vampire" thing I think that by letting him bite you, in that specific moment, you are letting him act out a fantasy too.
How many times when he was with someone did he think about sinking his teeth into their neck? It was so close, he could smell the blood rushing through him. We know he dissociated. How many times did he distract himself with that fantasy, of being able to feast, not having that limitation on him.
So he goes into the clearing ready to act his part. Ready to perform like he always did. And for the first bit, he does. Then, suddenly, that warm neck is in front of him, and this time he doesn't need to hold back. You remind him that even though he's doing THIS again, Cazador's orders no longer work on him. That he has more power in this situation then he ever did before, and he no longer needs that control.
I was about to answer your last messages when I saw that you explained your thought process here 😁 Thanks for clarifying your points and sorry for the misunderstanding!
{I'll be mentioning SA and torture below}
I agree with you, he did learn to smile "through it" the hard way, that's for sure. But also, we don't know the details... Who knows what Cazador actually made him do, as a literal puppet master? Maybe Cazador forced a smile on Astarion's face at first, maybe he commanded him to not hurt his targets no matter what, maybe he controlled Astarion's every movements in the bedroom during the first years, until those movements became automatic.
We can also imagine that the young spawns didn't go out on their own and were accompanied by older spawns, or any other servants that bowed to Cazador's will, if only to make sure they wouldn't fuck up.
Cazador could keep "an eye" on his spawns, even when they were out in the city. He would know if one of them became feral. In that case, he would either take control of their bodies, or punish them, or make them punish one another.
And I can believe that's the reason why he forced them to feed on putrid rats: not only to humiliate them and torture them, but also to make sure they were just fed enough to not become feral when they had to go out.
I don't know, again that's all about headcanons. But there was clearly a violent "training" behind all this.
And I don't know how long it would take for a spawn to build that mask and stick to it through their torments (after all Leon is a "young spawn" but he was nonetheless among the "fav ones", which means Cazador must have been happy with the victims he brought back to the Palace.
But what's clear to me is that, that mask, the performance, the smile through it all, it has become instinctive.
It has become so easy for him to "pretend", to put on the smiling, seductive face even when he's feeling awful. Because his survival depended on his smile for so long,
Astarion no longer has to think about it when he "performs" for his target. It's an automatism which relies, I think, on both dissociation and defence mechanisms (which are closely related anyway).
That would explain why he thinks intimacy feels "tainted", because he no longer remembers how to genuinely make love, without the façade, without the pretence, without the performative stance he had to display for so long.
As I said, he needs time to rediscover what it means to respect his own needs and boundaries while having sex, to listen to himself and not just to his partners. The brothel scene with the drow-twins makes it clear that he actually needs more time to rediscover all this, even though he thought he was ready to have an orgy again. As I said, healing is full of ups and downs, and mistakes happen. He needs to learn how to stop performing, but it also means accepting to be vulnerable... which can be terrifying.
As for the bite in the clearing, I suppose it's all up to anyone's imagination. You make some good points, and I totally agree with the idea that Astarion delights in being in control of the situation during that first night. But I also think it's a little more nuanced than that, if only because of his conflicted perception of himself as a "vampiric lover".
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