For Tops: Preparation and Seduction, Before Fucking A Newbie's Ass
This is a re-post of my most popular article ever, now brought to Tumblr
UPDATE: Wow - This article is in line to become the most-popular article that I’ve written so far, 24 hours after posting it. It’s going really viral, in the USA, Malaysia, Poland, Canada, the UK, Taiwan, Germany, Singapore, France and the Philippines! Clearly, this is a message that needs to get out there. I suspect a lot of men are sending this article to their boyfriends.
UPDATE 2: Here is the audio from the follow-up discussion on this topic. We have some GREAT new stars among us! Last time I checked Google Analytics, this article has been read over 300,000 times.
My goal is to teach the reader how to be a superb Top, with eager bottoms singing his (or her) praises. The steps that I list below can be accomplished in a few short minutes, or it may take months, but the end-result is a piggy, grateful bottom that can take a cock of any size without drugs, stretching, harm or pain of any kind. Being a gay man, I write from that perspective, but not with any intent of trying to exclude anybody.
Question: In the event that you play with a bottom who is very inexperienced and hasn’t bottomed much (or at all), do you give him a some time (a few minutes or so) to get used to you when you first start to fuck, or do you just thrown him into the deep end of the pool and take him to pound town?
If somebody takes an inexperienced bottom and intentionally takes him directly to Pound Town without negotiating exactly that beforehand, then he deserves to be chased away with rocks thrown at his head. Why? Because I have spent the last four decades helping damaged, frightened men to get back in touch with their assholes as sexual playthings, after years of avoidance.
Too many men are doing what dogs do, which is to jump on, pump, squirt and then jump off. It’s great for the Top.
It can easily be terrible/traumatic/damaging for the shy, new, eager and inexperienced bottom. I speak from direct experience. I’ve always had freakishly large, attractive rump-muscles. My nickname used to be Thunder Buns. So, in my younger days experimenting with gay sex, I’d let men fuck my ass.
I’d bite the pillow, bleed, suffer for days afterward, and regret having given up pussy for dick. I figured it was somehow MY fault, because I wasn’t keeping up. Then, one day, my life changed:
I was off-duty (Navy) and staying off-base in an apartment building. It was laundry day, and a small, mousy and not-all-that-attractive man was working HARD to get me to have sex with him. I finally gave in, figuring that I’d throw him a thrill. Oh, I was so wrong.
He rocked my WORLD. I basically became his butt-slave for three weeks. I’m naturally inclined to be a Top, but I wanted to learn from the obvious expert, and he taught me some deep wisdom. Here is a summary, for those of you who want to be a popular, well-rated Top, with plenty of word-of-mouth referrals:
• ASSUME that the guy you’re about to play with, is eager, inexperienced and needing some seduction. Don’t assume that he’s an experienced porn-actor who can take anything from anybody. Be pleasantly surprised if he proves otherwise, but it’s never a bad idea to start slow and careful.
• Stick a well-lubed finger up his ass, with a SHORT, SMOOTH NAIL. If I see heteroporn with a woman sticking blood-red talons up a guy’s ass, I cringe. The flesh down there is delicate. There are multiple, excellent reasons for sticking a lubricated finger up there:
• Check to see if he’s relaxed and ready. If his outer ass-ring is CLENCHED, he’s not ready yet. The problem is not down in his ass, it’s between his ears. Maybe he’s afraid, or he’s been hurt before, or he doesn’t trust you yet. So, it’s your job to seduce him into relaxing. More below.
• Adding some well-needed lube. Dry fucks, using nothing but “spit and determination” are classic porn-video fantasies, but again, we can’t assume that our newest partner is at that advanced stage. As we used to say back in the 1970’s, “if it’s not dripping off of the ceiling, it’s not enough lube!”
• Finding his prostate, AKA “Joy Buzzer #1”. The prostate is a rounded mound on the other end of his dick, inside the ass, and its location can change quite a bit (deep vs. shallow) from man to man. Its job is to generate the fluid that his sperm swims around in. Properly stimulated, a prostate will generate enough additional fluid to give the bottom “blue balls” after a while, leading to eagerness for more delightful butt-sex. YOUR job is to take careful note of its location, and then to please the hell out of it.
• Checking to see if he’s got any poop up there. Yes, from an aesthetic standpoint, it is unpleasant, but from a relaxed-butt standpoint, it’s very unhelpful. I don’t know how scientifically accurate this next assertion is, but it’s what I learned a long time ago from some VERY advanced players: There is a bundle of nerves at the base of your spine, that keeps you from pooping when you walk. If there is poop in your lower bowel, your asshole will clench, whether you want it to, or not. There are zillions of articles on the Internet on how to douche an ass.
Let’s talk about Operant Conditioning, in the context of butt-sex:
I’ll call it “Positive Reinforcement”, instead. To train a shy, new, eager bottom to CRAVE more, I have to take him through many steps, with patience and respect, giving rewards for behavior that moves the ball forward, and gently ignoring the stuff that doesn’t work at the moment.
As a high-quality Top, MY job is to seduce the bottom. What does this mean? Establishing Trust with a Capital T. Being true with my feelings and thoughts, from moment to moment. Staying in communication. NOT using “Porn Dialog” (“Fuck Yeah. Fuck Yeah”), if it’s not truly what I’m feeling.
Every one of us has a voice inside our heads, telling us to beware what is happening, or to tell ourselves that we are surely going to fail, or that maybe the guy we are playing with thinks our dick/belly/ass/back is too hairy/big/small/old/whatever. That noise is also in your new bottom’s head, and it wants to tell him that he is heading for a brick wall.
YOUR job is to talk openly, honestly and affectionately about your feelings and desires from moment to moment. Why? Because it silences and stills the voice inside his head, and he’s GRATEFUL for the relief.
If I’m playing with a man’s ass for the first time, I reward him for each stage that he attains in his new status as a piggy bottom:
• If his ass is tight enough to sharpen pencils, I will stimulate the OUTSIDE with pleasurable attention, using tongue and fingers. The dick does NOT show up at this stage. Oh, no. We don’t want any panic at this early stage. I will praise how well he is doing, no matter how small the accomplishment. I tell him that I’m okay if we DON’T actually fuck until the second or third date (or a month!), which takes the pressure off of him to catch up faster than he is prepared for, mentally. It also gives him the pleasurable knowledge that there is more to look forward to, with this REALLY nice, respectful Top.
• If he’s starting to relax a bit, I will use the phrase “Breathe me in”, while starting to penetrate him with my smallest finger. If he clenches/spasms, STOP MOVING. No pulling out, no pushing in. It’s a normal response. Once his ass stops spasming, praise him for relaxing, and help him to know how he is progressing.
• If he has taken the smallest finger well, slowly pull out, re-lube and then bring it on back in. There shouldn’t be any spasming at this point. Praise him for being looser than before, but only if you mean it. He can spot bullshit. Your goal is to take him through the stages, with no rush or pressure.
Why am I taking such a (literally) “slow-poke” approach? Because of the possibility of PTSD. Too many men have been damaged by inept Tops. Always assume that he is begging you to help him get past it. Continuing:
Here is an animation of me, flaring my nostrils. Back when I was a kid, I sat in front of a mirror, and kept practicing, until I found the mental “switch” to flare my nostrils. Here I am, half a century later, and I STILL know where that switch is.
It’s the same with an ass.
Normally, we poop (and occasionally, fart) with our asses. We are NOT born with the knowledge of how to relax our ass. How do I know? If I order a man to “RELAX THAT ASS”, there is no telling what he’ll do in his attempts to comply. He might get it right, and, many times, he won’t. It’s your job to help him find the switch inside his own head, so that his ass can be receptive, welcoming and eager, any time.
To accomplish this noble goal, we generously use praise, when it is earned. If he graduates to your longest finger, have him go on hands and knees and switch to your thumb, with a nail that is equally smoothly-trimmed and sandpapered. This is where it gets really FUN.
DON’T offer him drugs, including poppers. They cause the scared part of his brain to get ignored, sure, but they also cause the pain-receptor part of his brain to keep from screaming “DAMAGE!” I’d rather have 1% of true, connected and ecstatic sex, than 100% of the fake shit involving drugs. I remind the reader: I started having sex (with thousands of men) in the 1970’s, with the hardest of hardcore players. I know about drugs, and the cost. They truly are not necessary.
So, it’s thumb time: Your goal is to EROTICIZE ass-play for this man, and many times, it will be his first experience of such a thing. You are doing him a world of good, so press onwards. Lube up his cock really well, insert your thumb in his ass, and start (gently) twiddling his prostate. Rub in circles directly on top of it. Or, press on the closest part of the prostate, and rub from side to side.
If he complains that he needs to pee, accept it graciously, but chances are very good that he needs no such thing. He’s so unfamiliar with prostate-stimulation that he can’t sub-divide the sensations enough to tell what he’s feeling. This will pass.
If your thumb is comfortably, non-painfully inside his ass, order him (in a no-nonsense manner) to start playing with his dick. If his prostate gets all swollen and rock-hard, tell him to leave his dick alone, because that is a flashing-red-light signal that he is about to cum. That means that you are being successful in teaching him that his ass is for sexual pleasure. Keep supporting more and more excitement, and edging him closer, but not necessarily to orgasm.
However, if he DOES cum with something up his ass, tell him “Don’t hold back! Give me everything!” Why? Because you are training him to be delighted that his ass is a source of sexual pleasure. If he cums as a direct result of what you are doing, you’re a hero in his eyes. This is all to the good.
The next part is up to you:
Your goal is to get him ready for the Main Event, whether it’s your cock, or a dildo, or whatever. If you have a sizable object to insert, the bottom has to be comfortable with a certain number of fingers up his ass first, matching the diameter of the Object of Desire. This may happen on Date Number One, or it may take patient, multiple trainings over weeks, using ever-slightly-larger toys, or groups of fingers, starting with two fingers, and moving up to three if necessary.
Keep being patient, and keep using the techniques I mentioned above this. This is training and seduction. You’re creating beautiful new possibilities for a man that wants VERY much to earn your respect, and to give you every kind of pleasure.
What porn does NOT show you: That skinny twink has to get his ass ready with a series of ever-larger dildos, sometimes for hours, before he can take that monster cock. That process never shows up in the video, because it’s not sexy. However, it’s crucial.
You may have noticed something in my writing - I haven’t talked about the Top’s orgasms. There will be plenty of those, and they’ll be great, because you’ll soon be fucking an eager, butt-hungry bottom-boy who LOVES what you do. First, you have to get the bottom TRAINED. Set it as a goal that he will NEVER endure even the slightest pain. He will repay you many times over, and you’ll be SUCH a happy Sir!
Larry
great article from a talented ass master.
Mistress JordynRae
Thanks for your writings and videos very educational and helpful.
Update! Luigi's Attorney Dickey confirms that his "outburst" where he tells the cameras that this is unjust, was because he was never read his miranda rights and was under the impression at that time that he was being denied the right to a fair trial, an attorney, or any legal representation.
He is angry and terrified in that footage because they have failed to follow basic procedure to inform him that he has any rights at all. This is a major red flag of police corruption. This is UNACCEPTABLE and further means any interrogation they did of him is unlawful, and inadmissible in court.
God I hope this is true because that alone can get this entire case thrown out. I hope the judge laughs the entire prosecution out of the court.
Judge: let me get this straight. You didn't DNA test him because New York sidewalk is too contaminated, didn't fingerprint him because you don't have usable fingerprints at the scene, you have no way of knowing he's even the right guy, no one can identify that it's him in the footage, even fbi facial recognition software can't recognize him as the cctv suspect, AND you interrogated him under duress, and that's the ONLY thing you have on him? The thing that's defacto null and void because none of you can follow even basic procedure?
When I first read this post, before I decided to dig in and try to find the sources for these claims, I intended this response to be a gentle correction of a very common misunderstanding about an aspect of the U.S. legal system.
And I’m still going to do that; we’re going to start with some general education about Miranda warnings – what they are, what they mean, and under what circumstances should you talk to the cops? (Spoiler: Don’t talk to the cops.) But let me do a quick skip to where we are going to end up, to hit the main points before a way-too-long post (and to just go ahead and let the conspiracy theorists block me in advance):
Don’t talk to the cops.
The cops have to give you the Miranda warnings before they interrogate you (ask you questions related to a criminal investigation/case) in a custodial setting (a situation where you are not free to leave.
If they don’t do that, you may be able to ask the court to prevent the prosecutor in your criminal case from using any of those statements at your criminal trial. (The judge cannot and will not do this on their own.)
Even if the court agrees with you and stops the prosecutor from using your statements, the case doesn’t just go away. The prosecutor can still use other evidence to try to convict you. This can include other statements you made.
The Supreme Court of the United States (SCOTUS) did not recently say that you no longer need to be read your rights, or that you don’t have your Miranda rights, or you only have to be read your rights under certain circumstances that are somehow different from #2 above. SCOTUS ruled in Vega v. Tekoh that if the police do not read you your rights, you cannot file a civil lawsuit (aka a lawsuit where you are asking for money) against the police. This case is a travesty against the idea of justice, rights, and the rule of law, because it makes it much harder to hold the police accountable for their misconduct. However, it does not affect the application of the Miranda rule in criminal cases.
There is literally no evidence, zero, nada, none, that Mr. Mangione “was never read his miranda rights and was under the impression at that time that he was being denied the right to a fair trial, an attorney, or any legal representation," nor that his lawyer claimed this to be the case. @saint-luigi-of-fiji just literally made this claim up. Didn’t misunderstand, didn’t make a mistake, just straight up lied.
And on that point: fuck you, @saint-luigi-of-fiji, you lying asshole. How fucking dare you. How dare you farm people’s real pain, real outrage, and instead of directing it somewhere real, somewhere meaningful - instead of giving people real information about how fucked up the criminal injustice system is for the individuals - including Mr. Mangione - caught in it, or even just keeping your fanfic to yourself and your ao3 account, you decided to fucking lie, to deliberately spread misinformation both about his case and the legal system.
Right. Okay: let’s loop back to what I originally wanted this post to be about. Looking at OP’s original posts, there are three problems with them:
There is no source, and it is not true. They do give a “source” in the reblogs, and we will fucking get to that in full, trust me. But in short: there is simply no evidence at this time that Mr. Mangione’s Miranda rights were violated, much less that he hadn’t been read them at all, or that his attorney ever made that claim. This is just a straight-up fantasy made up by OP to spread conspiracy thinking. This is why I strongly advise not reblogging posts purporting to contain real-life information unless they both have a source and you have personally checked that source. It’s hard to do consistently (I know I’ve accidentally spread misinformation before!), but this post is a really good example about why you need to do both. Especially because:
This post is spreading a common misconception about what your Miranda rights are, when they apply, and what they mean. And people in the notes are really, really confused, in a way that – speaking from experience – can do real harm.
(And disclaimer up top: This post is about U.S. law. As such, I’m going to be addressing the parts talking about the law to folks living in the U.S. None of discussion about the law here applies outside of the U.S.)
(Second disclaimer: I am an attorney, but I am not your attorney. I outline some theoretical situations below purely as illustrative examples to make some of the explanations more accessible. Every factual situation is different, the law in every jurisdiction is different. Please do not avoid getting legal advice about your specific situation because you think this post is enough - this is information, not legal advice. If you are arrested and you begin a sentence to your attorney with, “I read on tumblr…,” I will personally come and haunt your dreams.)
Let’s start with a basic question: what are your Miranda rights?
(And I know, you know what your Miranda rights are! You've seen it on TV a dozen times! They're that speech the cops give you when they arrest you!...and if you just agreed with that last statement: please keep reading. Because the cops don't need to read them to you when you are being arrested, unless they are about to start questioning you right then and there.)
This post by the ACLU has a good, simple summary of what are commonly referred to as your Miranda rights, or Miranda warning:
“The Miranda rule, which the Supreme Court recognized as a constitutional right in its 1966 decision Miranda v. Arizona, requires that suspects be informed of their Fifth and Sixth Amendment rights "prior to interrogation" if their statements are to be used against them in court.”
I think it is helpful to think of your Miranda rights as two overlapping things:
The right to be informed of your rights before being asked questions.
The substantive rights you are being informed of.
That is, you have the right:
To remain silent, because anything you say can (and likely will) be used against you in a court of law.
To the presence of an attorney during law enforcement questioning.
And if you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you prior to any questioning.
These rights derive directly from the constitution of the United States. They exist independently, regardless of whether you are told about them.
In Miranda v. Arizona, SCOTUS held, “without proper safeguards, the process of in-custody interrogation of persons suspected or accused of crime contains inherently compelling pressures which work to undermine the individual's will to resist and to compel him to speak where he would not otherwise do so freely. In order to combat these pressures and to permit a full opportunity to exercise the privilege against self-incrimination, the accused must be adequately and effectively apprised of his rights, and the exercise of those rights must be fully honored.” Miranda v. Arizona, 384 U.S. 436, 467 (1966).
Essentially, SCOTUS said, look. These rights exist on paper. But if there aren’t procedural protections in place, including and especially telling people that they have these rights, the cops can and will just steamroll over people.
And this is true. Even with Miranda, cops pressure people into false confessions.
So you also have the right to be informed that you have the right to remain silent and you have a right to an attorney before you are questioned by the police while you are in custody.
This is a good place to pause and look at the dependent clauses in that last sentence.
First: You need to be informed of your Miranda rights before you are questioned by the police. Like most rights in the U.S., your Miranda rights exist to protect you from government action. There is not a loophole where you can scream confessions to any crime you want and then when the police come to silently arrest you, they can’t do it because they didn’t read you your rights before you started talking. You always have the right to remain silent (don't talk to the cops, even before they read you your rights); before you are questioned by the police, it is up to you to exercise that right (or not).
Second: While you are in police custody. Again, to quote from Miranda, “An understanding of the nature and setting of this in-custody interrogation is essential to our decisions today.” Miranda 384 U.S., at 445. This doesn’t mean you have to be arrested, but, you do need to be "not free to leave." (This is also why you should also clarify, if you have not already been arrested, "am I free to leave." Because you can be "in custody" before you are arrested. Asking this question puts the burden on the police to either let you leave or trigger your Miranda rights.) For example, this is why if your new buddy Bob in your direct action group asks you all sorts of questions about your protest activities and plans, and then Bob turns out to be an undercover fed, your statements to Bob can be used against you in trial when the government says you were committing crimes. Bob, in fact, did not need to tell you he was a cop, and he did not need to inform you of your rights.
Finally, let’s talk about what happens if your Miranda rights are violated: either because the police didn’t read you your rights and obtain a waiver, or because they did not fully honor the execution of those rights. (For example, you said, “I am invoking my right to remain silent. I am revoking my right to an attorney,” and they locked you in to a room and badgered you with questions until you talked.)
Again, from Miranda: “Our holding will be spelled out with some specificity in the pages which follow, but, briefly stated, it is this: the prosecution may not use statements, whether exculpatory or inculpatory, stemming from custodial interrogation of the defendant unless it demonstrates the use of procedural safeguards effective to secure the privilege against self-incrimination.” Miranda, 384 U.S., at 444 (1966).
That is: if your Miranda rights were violated, any statement you made as a result of that violation can’t be used against you in your criminal trial. Those statements would be “suppressed,” which means the jury would not be allowed to hear that you made them.
What could this look like in practice?
Let’s say you are arrested for "possessing illegal drugs" and brought to the police station. You walk into the interrogation room, and before the police say anything, you say, "I didn’t know possessing testosterone was illegal!” (Statement 1) The officer then asks, “Where did you get the testosterone?” And you reply, “I bought it on the internet.” (Statement 2).
If I was being asked to analyze this scenario on a law school exam, I would say that Statement 2 probably couldn’t be introduced at trial. You were in custody, and your statement was in response to a direct question by a police officer, asked before you were read your Miranda warnings.
So, your attorney could file a motion, asking the court to “suppress” the statement. And, assuming the court agreed, the jury at your trial would not hear that you said you bought the testosterone on the internet.
But what about Statement 1? Your attorney could still try to suppress the statement, but there is a strong chance they would lose, because when you said you didn't know possessing testosterone was illegal, it wasn't in response any question. So technically, your rights were (probably) not violated, according to the law.
Shorter version of what this means in practice: Don’t talk to the cops! Ever! Invoke your rights and say nothing else!
This is especially true because if you read Miranda, you may have noticed this line:
“If the interrogation continues without the presence of an attorney and a statement is taken, a heavy burden rests on the government to demonstrate that the defendant knowingly and intelligently waived his privilege against self-incrimination and his right to retained or appointed counsel.” Miranda, 384 U.S., at 475.
This “heavy burden” element of Miranda has been, in my opinion, nearly completely whittled away. It is, in observed practice, normally sufficient merely for an officer to testify that of course he read the suspect his Miranda rights, and then the guy just kept talking after making some weird statement about a “lawyer dog.” And the courts will agree that yep, that’s a sufficient waiver! (For more, if you are interested, this publication by a California DA’s office is a bit old, but includes examples of a bunch of circumstances in which courts have found someone waived their rights. Don't talk to the cops. Invoke your rights and then shut the fuck up and keep shutting the fuck up.)
If you can’t tell from my tone, I think this is a horrendous miscarriage of justice that is both baked into our system and that is enacted against far too many people every day. It is something I care, very deeply, about. I think you should care too – as a citizen, because you should know what is going on in your country, what is being done to other people here; and because you may one day be on a jury – and because someday it may be done to you.
And spreading conspiracies about how unusual all this is, how this one saintly man is being targeted – this doesn’t spread awareness of the real problems with the legal system. It allows the impression that the system is otherwise working fine, justice is being done and the only people being treated this badly are the really really bad ones,* and the ones that are being targeted by Them.
*This is not be reading between the lines and extrapolating. OP literally straight up make this claim in another post. We will go into more detail on that later.
And if you want this all in a shorter and more digestible form: this tumblr post has a good breakdown, and I specifically recommend the video at the end.
Right. So. Now that you have read over a thousand words of background, read a legal decision from the 1960s, read several articles and another tumblr post, and watched a 45 minute video, let’s return to OP’s posts, and the misconception they are spreading.
We are going to put aside for the moment the lie that Mr. Mangione's lawyer said he was angry “because he was never read his miranda rights, etc.” – again, we will get back to that. The underlying idea of these posts is that because Mr. Mangione supposedly wasn’t read his rights, 1) the police didn’t follow basic procedure and 2) therefore, the entire case must get thrown out.
I hope that after reading all of the above, you understand why this is incorrect. But just in case:
The police did not need to read him his rights unless they conducted a custodial interrogation. We have no idea if they did so or not (as OP admits elswhere).
Even if his rights were violated, there is nothing “defacto null and void” about any interrogation. His attorney would have to file a motion to suppress any statements that resulted from that interrogation.
Even upon motion by his attorneys, the judge would not and could not throw out “this entire case.” If he made statements during a custodial interrogation after the police failed to advise him of his Miranda rights, his attorney could file a motion to suppress those statements, and the judge would decide if those statements could be used at trial. Other evidence could still be introduced, including other statements he may have made in other contexts. The posts gesture in the direction of this reality – (“any interrogation they did of him is unlawful, and inadmissible in court”) – but this gesturing is overwhelmed by the rest of the posts (“they have failed to follow basic procedure”; “This is a major red flag of police corruption”; “that alone can get this entire case thrown out”; “[the interrogation is] defacto null and void”).
And indeed, looking through the notes, a large number of people do have this misunderstanding. For example:
“#They quite literally have to throw your case out if they don’t read you your Mirandas”
“#any 12 year old kid can tell you that the first thing that happens whene you get arrested is your rights!”
(I generally don’t recommend taking legal advice from 12 year olds, especially since most of their experience with the criminal legal system should be coming from media. That said, unfortunately there are far too many 12 years old who do have real life experience with the criminal legal system. That is one of the many fucked up things about the criminal injustice system.)
And I care, because this misunderstanding can do real harm!
I want to return to a sentence I quoted from Miranda earlier: “In order to combat these pressures and to permit a full opportunity to exercise the privilege against self-incrimination, the accused must be adequately and effectively apprised of his rights, and the exercise of those rights must be fully honored.” Miranda, 384 U.S., at 467.
When people don’t have full information about their rights, when they misunderstand them, it makes it much less likely that they will be able to fully and effectively exercise those rights.
For example, someone may feel like it’s okay to talk to the police as long as they haven’t been charged, or their Miranda rights haven’t been read to them – because before the police use your words against you, they have to read you your Miranda rights! This may not even reach the level of a conscious thought, but exist as a general impression that your right to remain silent only matters, is only important, after the police read you your rights.
Or they may, like many people reblogging this post, think hey, wait, isn't it true that if you're arrested and the police never read you your Miranda rights, your case needs to be thrown out!? I was never read my rights, and so my case needs to be thrown out!
And then have to find out they are wrong.
(And if you don’t think that is a real harm – I can tell you, from being on the other side of that conversation as a defense attorney – yes. Yes it is. Part of why I’m being so vitriolic in this response is my knowledge that the spreading of this misinformation makes it more likely that more of those conversations will happen.)
Speaking of the notes: several people in the notes are repeating some variation of the claim that SCOTUS decided that “Miranda rights aren’t required anymore.” This is a misunderstanding of Vega v. Tekoh, 597 U.S. ___ (2022). As I stated up at the top of this post (remember the top of this post? I swear to god this was supposed to be a short response), SCOTUS ruled in Vega that if the police do not read you your rights, you cannot file a civil lawsuit (aka a lawsuit where you are asking for money) against the police. This case is a travesty against the idea of justice, rights, and the rule of law, because it makes it much harder to hold the police accountable for their misconduct.
Multiple people in the notes cited to an ACLU article about the case, including some who actually quoted the article.
And almost every single one of them misunderstood it.
This decision had zero legal effect on how failing to inform someone of their Miranda rights would impact that person’s criminal trial. It has to do with whether the person has any civil remedies.
And. I think everyone who did this honestly meant well. And I know that understanding the law is really hard – there is a reason law school takes three years and rewires your brain in the process. But. It’s in the article: “While the court’s decision does not as a formal matter reduce the police officer’s obligation to issue Miranda warnings — or what individuals in police custody should do or say (or not do and not say) — it cuts off a critical means by which people whose rights have been violated can actually vindicate the promise of those rights.” (I'm keeping the link from the original because it's a very helpful know your rights article.)
My best guess is that this misunderstanding (to the extent it’s not just people remembering poorly-reported news, or other misinformed social media posts) comes from reading the quoted bit of Kagan’s dissent, where she said, “The majority observes that defendants may still seek ‘the suppression at trial of statements obtained’ in violation of Miranda’s procedures. But sometimes, such a statement will not be suppressed.” And they thought this meant that the case means that statements wouldn’t be suppressed? But that’s just no true: Kagan is just describing a thing that sometimes happens. As in, it is the thing that literally happened to Tekoh, the guy who tried to sue the officer who violated his rights. The statements should have been suppressed, but they weren’t, and so the jury heard the statements.
And, look. There is nothing wrong with not understanding the law. Or even articles talking about the law. The problem is that you need to recognize when you might not understand something, and don’t make claims about the thing you don’t understand.
Because. Again, going back to the bit of Miranda that I keep quoting: you don’t meaningfully have a right if you don’t know about and understand that right. When you go on the internet and spread misinformation about the state of people’s rights, you, in effect, are helping perpetrate the denial of those rights.
________________________________________________
Alright.
So that is where I originally meant to end this response. But I wanted to know what OP’s source was, so I dug through the notes.
And I found this reply by OP confirming that someone else had found their source in this post.
And. Well.
I normally would give credit to someone for actually having a source. In this case, I’m not even going to credit them with this actually being their source at the time of their original post – their post begins, “Update!," but this article is from early December, and they don't mention it until someone else links to it. But this is what they are claiming as their source.
And: The article and the attached video interview don’t say what OP says they say. They just. Literally don’t say that. So why does OP claim they do? Let’s look at their post. It begins:
“Some clarification: Miranda rights are the right to know that you have access to legal representation and that any police questioning and interrogation they subject you to are optional, that you are a willing participant of any police questioning and interrogation, that you are not being forced to speak to police or otherwise being interrogated under duress, that you confirm you are not being coerced or threatened by police into providing incriminating information, and that the interrogation can be ended at any time at your request by asking to speak with the legal representation you have the right to call upon. They also detail that if you don't have a private attorney to request, they have to appoint you a public one.”
Now, this is not a terrible description of the *contents* of your Miranda rights. But as we went through above, Miranda held that you have the right to be informed of these rights, which themselves derive from the U.S. Constitution, before being questioned. In fact, the Court in Miranda specifically held, “The Fifth Amendment privilege is so fundamental to our system of constitutional rule, and the expedient of giving an adequate warning as to the availability of the privilege so simple, we will not pause to inquire in individual cases whether the defendant was aware of his rights without a warning being given.” Miranda, 384 U.S., at 468. That is, it doesn’t matter if you know your rights – you still have to be read them. (I’m nitpicking here, I know, but if you are draping yourself in expertise in order to spread misinformation, I am going to nitpick your “clarifications.”) This distinction is important, and actually OP’s next sentence is a good example as to why:
“So for Luigi to not be aware, he would have had to have not even been read those rights.”
“Not to be aware”? Not to be aware of what? Presumably that he had a right to an attorney, I guess?
But the cited article and interview just show his lawyer saying that he didn’t have legal representation until he went into court. (Again, fucked up, especially under the circumstances - but also, many of the clients I had as a Public Defender met me for the first time a few minutes before their first court hearing. Far less unusual than you would hope.) It doesn't say he wasn’t aware that he had the right to an attorney!!
I could go through the poor reasoning here, of assuming that because Mr. Mangione (supposedly) didn’t know he had a right to attorney, that means he wasn’t read his rights, when (again, even if that was true) there could be plenty of other theoretical explanations. Some much worse scenarios, in my opinion! For example, maybe he was read his rights, and asked for an attorney, and was told one wasn’t available and the thought…AND OH MY GOD WHAT AM I DOING – this goes beyond speculation! This is just fanfic! We have literally zero reason to believe any of this happened! The poor reasoning and jumping to conclusions is irrelevant because the thing you are jumping off of is literally just a fantasy you made up in your head!
“It's not clear if he has been interrogated or questioned by police, but it's likely.”
And you know it! You know you are just making stuff up!
“It does mean that if he was questioned or interrogated without being read those rights, anything he said at that time is inadmissible in court and cannot be used against him.”
This is true! It’s also fucking proof, @saint-luigi-of-fiji, that you are a fucking liar, purposefully spreading misinformation. You KNOW what the remedy for a Miranda violation is. You know, or should know, it doesn’t mean “that alone can get this entire case thrown out.”
“Luigi's attorney is explaining that Luigi is fearful and stressed in this footage and during his initial arraignment because he was somehow able to be lead to the conclusion he wasn't going to have legal representation or his own right to a fair trial whatsoever.”
That’s not what he says.
Just.
You can listen to the audio yourself. I’ve roughly transcribed the relevant portion below, but please, please check it out yourself. Don’t take my word for this either. The speaker is Mr. Mangione’s attorney:
“Yeah - that - so, first of all, about this outrage. Uh, you know, he’s irritated, agitated about what’s happening to him and what he’s being accused of. He never had any legal representation until he walked into that building yesterday. Um, and I talked to him. And if you notice - look at the film - look at the difference between when he went in and when he come out. So once he got in, he finally had legal representation. I’d like to think that he had somebody that he can trust, and has faith in. And now he has a-a-a spokesperson. Someone that’s gonna fight for him. Um. And so I think you’ll see a big difference in the demeanor. And I think that part of that - uh - whatever you want to interpret that as yesterday was a lot of the frustration of being a young man thrown in jail, uh, and being accused of very serious matters.”
[News archer speaks, asking if the attorney met Mr. Mangione after the video clip of Mr. Mangione shouting.]
“That’s correct. I...[speaking over each other]…no actually, that was in the holding area. And I was on the other side of that. So my first contact with him, visually, was before I even had the chance to speak to him, was him coming through that door, and you, you saw the interaction between he and the sheriff’s department. And – and – then, look at the, look at the video of him coming out, and look at the difference. He’s now had legal counsel. I, I was upset that he didn’t have any legal counsel prior to that. That extradition hearing came upon pretty quick. And he hadn’t talked to anybody.”
(emphasis added by me)
The claim that OP is making is specifically about why Mr. Mangione was upset. So I added, for emphasis, every time the lawyer made a claim about someone being upset, and the reason. His attorney says repeatably that Mr. Mangione was upset because he has been arrested, held in jail, and been accused of very serious matters. The lawyer also says that he, personally, is upset that Mr. Mangione did not have an attorney prior to their meeting.
There is not even a whisper of an implication of a suggestion that Mr. Mangione “was under the impression at that time that he was being denied the right to a fair trial, an attorney, or any legal representation.”
This is just a fucking lie. It isn’t in the article, it isn’t in the video, it is literally just stuff you made up, and are pretending is reality. This isn’t a misunderstanding, this isn’t a game of telephone - it’s just a lie.
YOU ARE LITERALLY STRAIGHT UP LYING. AND FOR FUCKING WHAT. Is it because you believe that the injustices of the criminal legal system are fucking fine when they apply to other people, people who aren’t “saints”? (Because actually the bad people, the really guilty people, should just be killed.) Or because you have decided to form a parasocial bond with a man experiencing some of the worst things this country does to people, making up fantasies about him, and his personal life, and how he really feels.
Other people’s real suffering is not a playground for you to write your fanfic* and pretend it is reality, especially when in doing so, you spread real misinformation and harm.
*To be upfront on my biases and clear on my objection: RPF is very much not my cup of tea, but I don’t think it is inherently immoral. My specific objection here is that this person is collapsing reality into their fanfic, specifically spreading misinformation and encouraging conspiracy theories to make reality more like their fun, consumable escapism.
And again, to be clear: OP knows they are making this up. In another post, they say, “Source is CNN, and here's daily beast reuploading the CNN interview. It might not be coming up because the words "Miranda rights" weren't used, but they are the rights that haven't been given to him if he was not at any point aware he was going to have access to attorneys or legal counsel.”
OP could try to argue they misunderstood, but again, in his interview, at no point does his attorney even suggest something that could be reasonably construed as implying “he was not at any point aware he was going to have access to attorneys or legal counsel.”
“Thankfully he now has four attorneys, including Dickey, who are defending him and you can see he is no longer having 'outbursts' out of fear.”
Point me to the time stamp in your "source" where his attorney suggests Mr. Mangione was doing anything “out of fear.”
“Whatever happened during his arrest and detainment, he wasn't given any indication of his rights. But he thankfully does have those rights, and attorneys.”
Again, this is just…fanfic. There is no other word for you. You are writing fanfic (fine) and passing it off as reality because…it matches the dramatic narrative you want? It makes your uwu hotboy a real martyr, unlike all those vicious “cannibals” who are usually charged with crimes?
And yeah. That’s really what OP thinks. From another post by this asshole: “Was then placed in solitary confinement for weeks. Something extremely damaging psychologically to be exposed to for even just a few days. Something usually reserved for cannibals.”
Fuck you.
Fuck you.
Fuck you.
Fuck you.
Fuck you.
Fuck you.
Fuck you.
Look. I actually went back and revised this post to make it less vitriolic, OP, because my goal is not to hurt you.* I hope you have no idea of the kind of harm you are causing. But my god, you are saying and doing monstrous things, and you need to fucking stop.
*I will also haunt the dreams of anyone who harasses OP. Don't even think about going into their inbox.
So just to round things out, I’ll quickly address the rest of the claims in OP’s second post above:
“You didn't DNA test him because New York sidewalk is too contaminated, didn't fingerprint him because you don't have usable fingerprints at the scene,”
According to the police, they did take his fingerprints. I don't trust statements by the police, but this is a routine part of booking, so I would be surprised if they didn’t.
I don’t know if they took his DNA. But for what it’s worth, it’s currently not legal in Pennsylvania for the police to collect routine DNA samples upon arrest. So I’m not sure what the objection is here..?
As far as I can tell, although I don’t know where OP is getting this because they don't cite a souce, this claim appears to originate from people misunderstanding the “Defendant Identification Information” section of the Pennsylvania complaint.
“you have no way of knowing he's even the right guy, no one can identify that it's him in the footage, even fbi facial recognition software can't recognize him as the cctv suspect”
Look. To give you an idea of the problems here: let’s say this is all true. All of the reasons the police have given as to why he is the person who killed that evil CEO are dismantled by his legal team.
The place to do that, in our legal system, is the trial. These are questions of fact, which are decided at trial. I don’t want to say trials are a good way of finding fact. In fact, they often result in miscarriages of justice. But in our legal system, facts are decided at trial. Even if the judge agreed with all of the above, they wouldn’t and couldn’t throw this entire case out, because that’s not how this works!
I also want to emphasize, again, that this isn’t the system targeting Mr. Mangione. There are people every day who you don’t care about (“nobodies,” to use the term OP used to refer to ordinary people who are shot in the post linked above - because literally they don’t care about anyone except their fantasy version of Mr. Mangione) who are charged, and held, and convicted, on very little evidence. Which is a grave injustice that should frustrate and incite you, not lead you to post conspiracies and misinformation.
“you interrogated him under duress, and that's the ONLY thing you have on him? The thing that's defacto null and void because none of you can follow even basic procedure?”
And we’ve gone through this exhaustively, but Jesus fucking Christ.
You l know that you’re just making the “interrogation” up. Like, yes, maybe there will be evidence in the future there was an interrogation! And maybe there will be allegations or reason to believe there was impropriety and/or illegality in that interrogation! But right now, this is just your fantasy, and you're passing it off to thousands of people as real information
And like, I agree with his defense attorney! I take claims of evidence, especially from the police, with enough salt to brine a boar! But there is a massive difference between, “I will wait for confirmation of actual evidence before I believe any claims” and just…claiming the opposite is true without evidence.
There is plenty of bullshit to talk about regarding this situation. Both in how it is being talked about by the news, and how it is proceeding (and especially in how he is being charged). But part of that bullshit is this rampant conspiracy theorizing.
If this situation leads to people recognizing the problems with the criminal injustice system, great! But:
Conspiracy thinking is bad, no matter where it is directed. And there is reason to believe that thinking conspiratorially (in general) is strongly predictive for believing in other conspiracy theories.
The impression I’m getting from many people, not just OP, is less, “it’s terrible that people accused of crimes are treated this way” and more, “the fact this [both innocent and morally good] person is being treated this way indicates that he is being specifically targeted by the System.” [Implied: it either doesn’t happen to other people, or it does happen to other people and they deserve it.]
And on that note, I do not "hope [it] is true" that Mr. Mangione’s rights were violated. Because he's a human being, not just a guy who represents something people support; their uwu hotboy; their real life blorbo.
I hope that if he did not do it, he is not convicted. Regardless of whether or not he did it, as someone who believes in prison abolition, I hope he does not have to spend one more day incarcerated. I wish all of the attention and resources being dedicated to catching and prosecuting and covering him in the media (and more) were being dedicated to doing something – anything – against the murderous for-profit healthcare system in the U.S.
And in conclusion:
Check the sources before you believe or spread a claim.
Don’t make claims about the law if you don’t really understand it.
