the user formerly known as junglehurst

matcha | any pronouns | 1000 unfinished drawings but we still persist

[minetcha]

pinned

@matchaira's mcyt sideblog, because they realized far too late that it all needed to go somewhere.

banner credit: TheFoolsFam (sbk2 acacia kingdom flygon)

[minetcha]

anyway: paintings i made a while back

joy of painting mod is very fun👍

[minetcha]

junglehurst -> minetcha

new url new me

[lorefulgood]

the issue with pantheon smp isn’t limited to a handful of bad/racist character designs, or the creators’ lack of research/knowledge about the culture they’re basing the smp on, and in fact if you’re focusing on those comparatively superficial issues (which are still issues, mind) then you’re limiting yourself to surface-level analysis and failing to address the root of the problem. all the character designs will be racist because the smp itself is, fundamentally, built off a racist premise: the idea that all interesting or attractive or appealing aspects of foreign cultures “belong to” that nebulous and fascistic idea of The West, to be pillaged and exploited and (mis)appropriated and altered, for profit and for personal enjoyment. there is a long history of westerners treating foreign cultures that way, including ancient greek culture! to focus on specifically the debates over whether scott’s character design is orientalist or whether martyn’s character design is misogynistic or whether legundo’s character design is just blatantly fucking racist is to miss the forest for the trees.

[betweenlands]

okay the fact that there's specifically twelve champions of twelve gods in a sort of pseudo-deathgame social elimination challenge gauntlet survivor thing and we're NOT doing a multiple-mythologies-nexus a la wicdiv has GOT to be some sort of cosmic torment joke inflicted on us specifically are you kidding meeeeee

[betweenlands]

"but solar then they'd be badly butchering the folklore and mythology of multiple cultures" i mean, okay, sure, if we presume that absolutely nobody in the cast has any interest in doing research, i guess. but also the thing is that, and we cannot stress this enough, people not having a particularly good grasp on the god that they embody is in fact a plot point that is story-critical to wicdiv. not only would it be significantly more fine, they would literally have a built-in failsafe for fucking it up in the form of it being canonically accurate to do so

[betweenlands]

this isn't even a spoiler it's in literally the first issue of the comic

[betweenlands]

Wasn't even looking into Pantheon SMP (not for any particularly thoughtful reasons, just busy) but- what's wicdiv? That sounds like a fascinating concept. I love a narrative that dissects the troubles of how other stories typically treat their core concept (eg. discussing the innaccurate retellings of mythology for the sake of "rule of cool" without attention paid to the cultures being misrepresented)

YEAAAAHHHH intended reaction (getting people to want to learn more about wicdiv specifically)

The Wicked + The Divine is an Image Comics series that ran from 2014 through 2019, created by Kieron Gillen and Jamie McKelvie. The official gloss:

Every ninety years, twelve gods incarnate as humans. They are loved. They are hated. In two years, they are dead. The team behind critically thermonuclear floor-fillers Young Avengers and PHONOGRAM reunite to start a new ongoing superhero fantasy. Welcome to THE WICKED + THE DIVINE, where gods are the ultimate pop stars. But remember: just because you're immortal, doesn't mean you're going to live forever.

We'd personally describe its genre as mainly urban fantasy with a slight whodunit spin -- one of the big inciting incidents is one of the gods accidentally(...?) killing someone, and trying to figure out what happens ends up gradually unraveling a pretty long-running divine conspiracy with a lot of layers of deception and interpersonal drama stacked on top of each other. It is also about art history and the way creatives shape the world, and about the way people's flaws are exposed in imperfect in nasty ways, and about unpacking the issues with celebrity culture, and even just about fandom in general.

Wicdiv has an incredible amount of fairly varied forms of representation when it comes to godly pantheons, but also has a surprisingly diverse cast in terms of race, queerness, and to a lesser extent neurodiversity. It is unflinchingly adult when it comes to the subject matter it's willing to handle (yes, such as sex and sexuality, but also including things like child abuse, assault, and racial discrimination), which is probably a major tonal difference from what Pantheon will be like, but it does so with a lot more effort in covering the dynamics of these things. It's not always perfect, and at times in-universe characters can get really ugly about the aforementioned topics, but it's a lot of very realistically flawed and internally consistent character work. It's also got gorgeous art and character design, but that kind of goes without saying -- it's a hit comic from Image, they tend to smash it out of the park with visuals.

Highly recommend it. If not for the fact that we haven't gotten around to reading the whole thing, we would seriously consider making AUs about it every time a multi-cast series got dropped in our lap with a premise that could use some tinkering.

Also you can just read the first issue online for free completely legally. Nobody can stop you. Your local library is pretty likely to have a few copies of the first few books as well, in our experience. Go pick it up 👍

[that-truant-heart]

I do think Pyro and Apo are the most important case studies in the sexual assault/abuse reading of vsmp (force vs coercion, attempting to appease the abuser vs seeking retribution) but I gotta say, there is something to the fact that after Doc's violent, nonconsensual turning, people assumed he wanted it.

[crypt-the-frogge]

always liked the background i did for this painting, so finally went back and rendered it fully

[mallowbees]

oh yeah actually, with next NAHC coming up, here's some unfinished stuff + designs for an au made last year based off last season. setting it free to the populace because we really have not done more with it since. there is some stuff id change now but, oh well, as it goes. anyway, a lot more mostly disconnected writing screenshots than i realized i had below the cut (though not all!) (put them together in relevancy). some horror involved (unwilling transformation (not described), magical coercion, paranoia inducing scenarios (The Weird Skeletons<3)) and character death (evbo fucks it up big time, loony withering with some intense detail including loss of breath, blood described) btw, real shocker i know. thats your warnings mostly i think

[concidineart]

Doc doesn't make much progress on the cure for his mystery vampire patient until the spirits gift him the ability to make holy water. Holy water can temporarily bring Avid back to his senses and Doc learns Avid's name for the first time. Avid uses his brief bouts of lucidity to try and write down everything he knows about his sickness and potion-making.

[residenthesitant]

Rating PanSMP Designs by How Well They Represent Their Gods

Alright, it's my turn to get in on all this. Due to work restrictions, I have not been keeping up with PanSMP's announcement timeline, but with all the character designs on the table, I think it's time to put my two cents in.

"Res," I hear you ask, "what are your qualifications?" While my degrees are primarily in English language literature and linguistics, the same professor who made me spot-translate the Peterborough Chronicle was the one making me insane about Etruscan funerary cultures the year before. Also, I used to teach this to sixth graders. If two rooms full of eleven year olds could comprehend my god lectures, I'm sure MCYTblr can.

Parameters

Not everyone in Ancient Greece could read so well. As such, the common people needed to be able to recognize their gods at a glance. Every god had around three symbols to represent them - if you saw a sword, a helmet, and a dog, you knew you were looking at Ares.

This is purely going to be a discussion of how accurate each player's design is to the iconography of the gods they are claiming to represent - in short, how well you can tell at a glance that they champion each god. Some discussion will be made about how accurate the clothes are to the Greek period, but only when relevant. Now, onto the ratings.

Apo, Champion of Morpheus

There are not many classical depictions of Morpheus, god of dreams, which puts us already at a disadvantage. In his single mention in Ovid's Metamorphoses, he does have wings, but we don't have much if any actual Classical art of the figure. Apo's design seems to draw heavily from this 1889 statue of Morpheus by Teofila Certowicz - the owl imagery and flowers are relatively similar. There isn't enough to go on, here, though the point gets across. C+, but could use more sources.

Pearl, Champion of Nyx

Nyx, goddess of night, is often depicted as a winged woman in dark colors and with star or moon motifs. Pearl checks all of these boxes to a degree. I will be so real, however: this looks like Ianite. B-.

Owen, Champion of Chronos

All we have to indicate that Owen is a champion of Chronos, god of time, is the hourglass icon in the god announcement list. I will also admit that the red figure on the right is of Cronus, titan father of Zeus and god of harvest, who has a similar sounding name. I could not find a classical reference for Chronos, and all other depictions of Father Time had imagery that conflated the two. At least he's in a semi-accurate outfit. N/A.

Pyro, Champion of Athena

If we're looking for imagery directly associated with Athena, goddess of strategy, Pyro's got it. His outfit does make me say "what the hell is that?" but he has the imagery. Helmet? Check. Spear? Check. Owl? Check. Aegis? Check. Yep. That's a champion of Athena, even if there's little evidence for a soft plume on actual battle helmets. A.

Martyn, Champion of Artemis

Unfortunately, Martyn immediately gets points off by virtue of not being an adolescent girl. Looking past that, however, he gets the motifs down. Artemis, as goddess of the hunt and, in the Roman period, the moon, is often depicted with bow and deer imagery. Martyn’s got those. Extra points for the scars on the chest looking like bear claws! Bears were a big part of the cult of Artemis and the rituals that brought girls from adolescence into adulthood. A-.

Cleo, Champion of Pan

Not much to say with this one. Pan, god of nature, wilds, and rustic music, is depicted as a satyr and often seen carrying a pan flute. Cleo’s got all that. She's even got the Dionysian crown of ivy. No notes. A+.

Legundo, Champion of Zeus

There is nothing in this design that suggests Zeus. Zeus, king of the gods and god of thunder, is depicted most often with eagles and thunderbolts. The sun on Legundo’s shoulder suggests Apollo, but that’s about the only symbolic piece I can trace here. At least he has a beard. F.

Sausage, Champion of Hermes

Hermes, god of travel, trade, and tricksters, messenger of the gods, is often depicted wearing a winged helmet and shoes, and carrying a caduceus, a winged staff with two intertwining snakes. Sausage checks exactly one box on that list: vague wing imagery. D.

Scott, Champion of Aeolus

Scott’s design has been discoursed to death already, and baby, I’m here to beat a dead horse. Aeolus, keeper of the winds, is not depicted often in Classical art, but is mentioned in Homer’s Odyssey as the one responsible for the bag of wind that Odysseus is given. Scott’s design invokes more cloud than wind, leading me briefly to think he may have been a champion of Tempestas, but she’s Roman. C-.

Drift, Champion of Apollo

Apollo is the god of music, poetry, healing, light, and prophecy, and is most often depicted with a bow and arrow, laurel wreath, or kithara. Absolutely nothing in Drift’s design suggests this, except for, if I’m being extremely generous, the vague laurel wreath in her hair. Everything about Drift’s design invokes Demeter, or, slightly more accurately, Ceres. This is not an Apolline design. F.

Shelby, Champion of Tyche

Tyche, goddess of fortune, is often depicted with a mural crown, acornucopia, a wheel of fortune, or the zodiac. This has none of that. This is Malenia, Blade of Miquella, from Elden Ring. F.

Abolish, Champion of Hephaestus

And, finally, we get to Abolish, champion of Hephaestus. As the god of artisans and blacksmiths, Hephaestus is often depicted with fire, a hammer, and an anvil or tongs. Abolish has, at most, the color scheme down. I don't trust that sword in combat. D+.

Conclusion

These designs, save for the few that got passing grades, barely do anything to actually depict their gods and goddesses in an iconographic, easy-to-parse way. Like. Man, c'mon. Anyway yeah that's what I got. Tumblr went down twice while I was writing this. Okay bye.

[harvestmoth]

??freak

[betweenlands]

I'm not trying to be offensive but what part of Scott's design reads as orientalist to you? If it's the pattern on the corset, that's a Greek pottery pattern. If it's the outfit itself, I'm not seeing how a skirt, corset, top, and cloak is reading as orientalist. I'm genuinely asking what aspects are orientalist because that's a serious thing to be throwing out without backing it up.

alright, fair enough. here's as comprehensive a breakdown as we can muster. a disclaimer: when we call this outfit Orientalist, we are referring the usage of the term popularized by Edward Said in his book on the same topic; which is to say, a reductive combination of of Asian, Middle Eastern, and generally "non-Western" cultural signifiers used to denote a group as "other" or "exotic".

"that's a Greek pottery pattern": no, it is not. that pattern is pretty clearly visually referencing Xiangyun, a traditional Chinese design motif often used in ceramics. if it is meant to be Greek, it's either very poorly conveying that fact, or someone was severely misled.

the corset itself, pattern aside: …well, it's certainly not Greek either. it does loosely resemble a fabric sash like you'd see in Turkish dress, or a somewhat Western-stylized obi sash, but we'll give it the benefit of the doubt and say it's just a generic anachronism. technically it could be considered a cummerbund, which does show up in some forms of South Asian formal dress, but we didn't know that until checking the Wikipedia page for it so, again, benefit of the doubt, generic choice but still deeply strange.

the skirt: is not a skirt. there's a seam down the middle indicating they're pants. these specifically -- where the fabric is tighter around the waist, flows out towards the bottom, and then is gathered again at the ankle -- are known as harem pants, and are a Western fashion trend explicitly based on Middle Eastern traditional dress.

the translucent pants fabric: our good friend Loudn has identified this as being very visually similar to muslin fabric, especially as depicted in Bengali dress. worth noting that the particular painting linked there is alternately called Muslim Lady Reclining or Indian Girl with a Hookah, because this is an emblematic example of the equation of two very different cultures under the broad Orientalist "desert" trope.

the cloak/shawl: we're. genuinely having trouble figuring out what this thing is even called (other than being a shawl worn like a stole specifically) but it is definitely not Greek in origin. it seems like Kashmir shawls are often worn similarly, but those are classified based on their weave and country of origin rather than outfit stylings. it kinda resembles the "bag of winds" the Japanese wind god Fūjin carries, which would be a neat nod to Greco-Buddhist syncretism if it wasn't for the literally everything else about this outfit. one friend brought up that it could be a sbai, another says it looks like a pibo, it's worn very similarly to some modern dupatta stylings, it almost seems like it could be a khata if not for those generally not being worn in the first place, oh gods was Greco-Buddhism even much of a thing we are going to have an aneurysm we cannot keep thinking about this. it's nothing. the shawl is nothing. it is a generic amalgamation of a whole swath of different forms of cultural dress, none of which are Greek.

the sleeveless top: another thing we are struggling to trace. the closest we can come to identifying it would be that it looks kind of like a non-crop-top version of the Gerudo Top from the Zelda series, which, if so, yikes, the Gerudo are notoriously an Orientalist stereotype. otherwise we're having a great deal of trouble pinning down where it's coming from because tight sleeveless tops are... somewhat ahistorical. the closest visual match we could find is the sadri, which is not worn as a sleeveless top but instead as a vest and is yet again South Asian instead of Greek.

the open-toed tights: shrugs. open-toed pantyhose exist in modern day. not Orientalist in and of itself, just ahistorical and a deeply strange design choice in general. swagever.

the outfit overall: also bears resemblance to a "belly dancer" sort of outfit. now, there is some historical precedent for Greek culture to have been one of the originators of this style of dress with the existence of the Tsifteteli style being potentially tied back to the older, less well-cited Cordax. it's still questionable, though, because belly dance is also historically used in extremely Orientalist contexts, and also if you google "Tsifteteli dance" you will very quickly run directly into the G-slur referring to the Romani people. yikes.

okay, so how is any of this a problem? well...

Pantheon Scott is for a series based on Classical/Greco-Roman mythology, with a heavy focus on Greek myth specifically. Despite this, his outfit (when not generically anachronistic) consists almost entirely of Asian, Middle Eastern, and Indian design motifs, often in a way that cannot be traced back to any actual form of cultural dress besides generic "exotic" signifiers. Because this outfit consists entirely of these articles of cultural dress used interchangeably, it consists to a view of non-Western cultures as similarly broadly interchangeable. It is reductive, it is completely unjustifiable given the context the server is supposed to take place in, and it is racist. We do not care if it's "based on the version of Aeolus in the Epic musical series." Cool. That's also a racist and Orientalist design. Do better.

Oh, and the real kicker -- Scott has also described his character as sexually promiscuous, an extremely loaded comment considering the way "exotic" Orientalist design tropes are used to similarly denote promiscuity and sexual availability (especially in French Orientalism specifically). Fucking yikes.

In conclusion, what part of Scott's design is Orientalist? All of it. The entire design. Throw it out, get a new one, we literally do not care whose idea this was, fix your shit.

[betweenlands]

like okay part of this is that we're a little more studied than most people in this field. we have actually read at least part of Orientalism by Edward Said before, he's kind of considered foundational to the field of comparative literature, et cetera.

but Scott's Pantheon SMP design? genuinely Orientalist as fuck, negative definition not vague-also-bad field of study definition, borderline straight up racist, what the FUCK WAS ANYONE THINKING. were they even thinking. how in the fucking hell do you let that design pass. it is actually so bad it is not even remotely funny, it is infuriatingly horrid. PLEASE go back to the drawing board, holy SHIT this is a bad look

[loudn-mcyt]

Spot the Difference

[harvestmoth]

quick things

[redstonebug]

as someone who has been in miscellaneous mythology-based fandoms for awhile and has also done decently varied and intensive-for-casual-use non-fandom mythology research for over 10 years, alongside being generally aware of how fandoms work, i've decided to put together a quick little "[taps the sign]" list gearing up for Pantheon SMP. Feel free to refer to this whenever or do whatever and what-have-you, as I feel like these topics may come up a lot.

I'll put the mythology-specific ones under a cut for length. That being said, [ahem]

General housekeeping:

Please remember that a lot of the creators in Pantheon SMP lean more PG/PG-13. I know Greek mythology is Greek mythology, and jokes will be made and everybody is shirtless and what-not. But be mindful particularly in community spaces, especially for those creators (AND THEIR MODS. PLEASE), and temper yourselves. Maybe save some of the shirtless art for your own socials/servers rather than in community discord servers, and be mindful of how you tag it/where you put it.

Related to that: Yes, there is a lot of toplessness in this smp. There is nothing wrong with that. But please keep in mind that in the most literal definition of the term, in many cases that can be not safe for work. As in folks may get in trouble if they have art of that open in their workplace. It can definitely feel awkward tagging Minecraft stuff that, but at the very least make sure you're tagging for partial nudity or similar. Just so people can filter tags.

On to mythology notes that may be of relevance for folks:

Chronos the primordial god of time is not the same as Kronos/Cronus, titan of the harvest. They got conflated even in Greek times because they have similar names, and they both get conflated/merged into the roman Saturn with more sort of Father Time/seasons themes, but they're separate dudes. Chronos is usually one of the first gods in Orphic origin myths. I believe Owen and Apo have said already that they intentionally avoided having champions of Titans, so it may be useful to keep that distinction in mind.

Zeus encompasses more than just fuckboi and/or rainy jerk. He is the god of hospitality, law, fatherhood, leadership, weather/storms, etc. Sometimes he was merged with Poseidon and/or Hades, among others. And yes, overall he was characterized as a good leader. Keep in mind Ovid wrote a whole lot of anti-authoritarian stuff cause he got exiled and was mad at the Roman emperor, so that bled into his versions of myths a lot, especially with Zeus/Jupiter. This was not the universal opinion/perception of Zeus/Jupiter across Greece/history. It was just one version of him.

No, Artemis does not hate men, and yes she had men in her retinue of mostly female hunters. Orion is the most well-known example, and Hippolytus is an example of one of Artemis' male hunters who literally did nothing wrong and was super chill. Also, Artemis (alongside Apollo) are the protectors of all youth, not just youth of their own genders. It was in fact a noted aspect of both Artemis and Apollo that, by ancient Greek standards, Apollo was considered generally feminine and Artemis was very masculine. This actually comes up such as in some versions of the myth of Niobe and Leto, where Niobe insults Leto's children in comparison to her own, and Artemis and Apollo then proceed to murder all of Niobe's children - Artemis slaying the seven daughters, Apollo slaying the seven sons.

Yes, Aeolus is a god in some myths. Other times he's mortal. There's a lot of instances of this across mythology. Don't sweat it too much. There's not actually a huge distinction half the time with some figures, such as a lot of nymphs. It's not that important. He's a god in this case and that's all we need to know.

Cause I know a PJO fan will probably mention it - no, Pan is not always dead, depending on version of the myth. There are actually very few myths about this. It's generally credited to one story where a guy might have misheard worship of an entirely different god.

Nyx is not "evil." One of her kids is literally the goddess of friendship. Nyx is generally allied to the Olympians and helps them quite a few times. Heroes of Olympus lied to you, sorry. She is considered scary, though.

The whole "pantheon family tree being a circle" thing is mostly symbolic/metaphorical. Because it's mythology. Zeus is the father of Athena because as a god of law and leadership he's the "father of wisdom." Rain bring plant growth so he and Demeter are the parents of Persephone/spring. Apollo has one billion myths about hanging out with nymphs because the sun and plants. So on and so forth. Like half or more of that family tree varies wildly across place and time, often for these same reasons and whatever myth/story they're telling, or sometimes just cause they have a different pantheon (yes, even within ancient Greece). It's not often meant to be that important so don't sweat about it. It's metaphors.

I don't have any notes in particular for specifically Athena, Hermes, Morpheus, Hephaestus, Tyche, or Apollo, so in lieu of that I will give my blanket recommendation of Theoi as an excellent and extensively-sourced resource for Greek mythology research.

Everybody good? Okay? Okay. Now everybody be niceies and let's not get into a million fights over having 20 different sources over centuries of (multiple pantheons of) mythology spanning like half a continent. Only fun Minecraft times. Yippee.