Monny287

[simbelmyneflower]

So NCIS: Tony and Ziva implies that yes, they were in fact hooking up the whole damn time. they were just being extremely secretive about it, which tracks with a lot of the sneaky hints peppered into the original show. However, if this is true, are we really supposed to to believe that Gibbs didn’t know?? Could they have been really successful in hiding this from him? Especially since they momentarily imply that MCGEE knew. McGee who cracks under pressure from Gibbs very easily? That McGee?

[monny287]

I'm not sure how much I agree with that retconning, but we already know that Gibbs knew there was something going on between Tony and Ziva. We get hints of that throughout the series, such as when Tony gets jealous that Ziva's date is taking her to the opera and a lot is made of that being "one of the big three" kind of dates. Other characters seem quite unwilling to label it as jealousy, but Gibbs tells Ziva to "cut the guy [Tony] some slack" because "it's one of the big three." And most overtly in "Family First," when Gibbs is not only very sympathetic towards Tony's need to get to Israel, even telling McGee to get him a plane ticket, but openly acknowledges during Tony's meltdown in the bullpen that Ziva was "more than just an agent" to him.

He knows that they're penned in by Rule 12 and since it's never been an issue, he's happy to not really bring it up unless they do. He gets angry with Tony for dating EJ, but this could be viewed as being afraid of the liability because EJ is not on his team and thus very much not beholden to Gibbs' way of doing things.

[stellaluna33]

I maintain that Jess was So Stupid to ask Rory to run away with him, but... Rewatching Season 3 with the endless exhausting MESS that is the whole Dean/Rory/Jess Thing... GOSH, do I actually kind of understand him seeing Dean there (still!) and thinking, "I cannot do this again," haha. "I want to be with you, but not HERE, not this place, not Stars Hollow... We have to start NEW!" Like, yeah! I get that! But good job, buddy, that's the worst anyone's ever done it! 😂😭😭😭

[monny287]

This post once again reminds me how much I enjoy that despite being a show very much of its time and all that implies about the tropes it uses, "Gilmore Girls" actually subverts a lot of the typical romantic tropes that were normalized in the 2000s, and I think in 2026, we kind of take that for granted because that is what we expect from our media today. It wasn't until I was watching it as an adult that I realized the show has a very dim and cynical view of the "Grand Romantic Gesture" and pretty much every time it's attempted, it crashes and burns.

In any other show, this would be a very shippy moment. Even Lane, in the next episode, gets a little swoony over it. But that isn't how it's portrayed. It is arguably one of the most heart-wrenching Literati scenes because of the phenomenal acting, but it isn't romantic. It's sad. Because Jess is still stuck in the same self-destructive patterns he was when he left Stars Hollow, and Rory can see that. But there's also a part of her that misses him and wants to go but knows it would be really stupid. This is evident in the way her first response isn't "no," it's an incredulous "where?" as though checking that this decision isn't as impulsive as it appears on the surface (and it is). Also in the way she has to repeat saying "no" and can't bring herself to look at him.

But unlike the usual portrayals of the trope, he doesn't wear her down. He doesn't convince her, she isn't charmed by this desperation because it means he really loves her. She stands firm, and though he looks like he's been slapped with that final "no," he still leaves. Neither of them are in a place where being together makes sense for their characters, and they both have some growing up to do. Running off together wouldn't fix any of the problems they had, and would in fact, make them worse. And I kind of love that the show is self-aware enough to make that point, even if it means that scene rips your heart out and stomps on it. Early 2000's teen/family media loved to band-aid their way through relationships with one big romantic gesture that somehow erases all of the bad before, and it is nice to see a show unwilling to buy into that.

There's actually way more examples of this, and it's actually like, 35% of Logan's character, but this post is long enough.

[stellaluna33]

Ok, the Gilmore Girls episode "It Should've Been Lorelai" is a time when it WAS true that Richard and Emily live up to their fandom stereotypes of Richard being jovial, harmless, and rather clueless, and Emily being ruthless and almost hysterical. It stood out to me because SO MANY fanfics portray them like this is their dynamic ALL THE TIME, and I've sometimes wondered where that comes from, because most of the time I find their personalities much more complicated than this. I think the context of this episode is key, though, especially concerning Richard. Because this is Richard interacting with Christopher. Despite his protestations in Season 1 ("Do you think I like the boy who got my daughter pregnant?" I may be paraphrasing this), Richard sees Christopher as a peer and a social equal, and is disposed to think well of him. He would not (and does not) behave this way with everyone, particularly people he does NOT see as his social equals.

[monny287]

I feel this way when a fic author puts forth the idea that Richard would approve of Jess as a partner for Rory and they'd get along. Uh, no. Richard would treat Jess just like he'd treat anyone he feels isn't on his level, and that would make Jess bristle. Richard would likely just keep finding excuses to miss those dinners and not be in the same room.

Although I do think Emily and Jess could vibe, especially post-AYITL. Jess would find Emily's call-out of the DAR as phony absolutely fucking hilarious. And while her society breeding goes as deep as Richard's, I think her character arc with her housemaid in the revival could soften her to the idea of Jess.

[lesbilane]

so i saw this misquoted post and went into an entire essay about the meaning of what jess is actually saying here and it got waaaaay too long to reasonably just post as a comment, so yeah.

essay time:

i could be wrong, but i'm almost 100% certain that he actually says "the girls that i like don't give a damn about me". it's a small change, but one that i think is incredibly important and sent my brain into a tailspin needing to dissect my bby boy jess mariano

okok so obviously in this scene, jess is primarily talking about rory which is emphasized by the rest of this line where he calls out luke for waiting around for lorelai (though he doesn't directly mention her name, the audience knows)

however, in the line above, he didn't say girl he said girls which implies a pattern of jess liking girls who either don't like him back or don't want to like him back, even if they do (the latter being the case for rory)

not to go all 2012 tumblr with this, but it reminds me of we accept the love we think we deserve

so let's go back over what we know about jess

his dad walked out on him when he was a baby. a child could easily interpret that as them being undeserving of love

his mom was neglectful (and likely at least verbally abusive based on the way speaks to tj) and seemed to always put boyfriends/husbands above jess on her priorities. again, this would also likely be interpreted by a kid as being unworthy of love

then he got shipped off to a grumpy uncle and a town that hated his guts before he ever stepped foot off of the bus. sound like it could make his feel unworthy of love (though he was already unaccepting of it by this point)

then he meets rory and feels an instant connection with her and he doesn't really know what to do with that plus he's a teenager who has never had any real stability in his life, but he does start actually putting effort into his interactions with rory (the sleigh, the bid a basket, bringing food over, etc) and even furthers that when she asks for him to try to be nice to her mom.

it's almost like he's trying to make himself feel more worthy of love, but he is still a highly traumatized child, so he's less than perfect, but he does end up catching rory's interest

she then kisses him before running off to washington and not speaking to him for 3 months

all of that effort got pushed right back into his face which, you guessed it, put him right back into the place of feeling undeserving of love.

so he gets with shane and - according to jess - they treat each other like crap. we don't know much about shane, but it seems like she probably also had a background that made her feel like it was okay for jess to not care about her as long as she also showed she didn't care about him

however, we do see some minute level of care in the fact that jess chooses to break up with shane before getting together with rory. while this normally shouldn't be noteworthy, any instances of not choosing to cheat when you could cheat in gilmore girls is kind of a big thing

so at this point, rory and jess are finally together and, unsurprisingly, jess fucks things up. not to say that rory was a perfect girlfriend, but more on that later. jess is 100% the reason that their break-up happens in the way that it happens (though i do believe a break-up was inevitable even if everything had gone to plan)

jess, who has never been shown proper love, doesn't know how to be in a proper relationship, but we do see him making effort. he doesn't want to go to friday night dinner, but he does. lorelai tells him off for not calling rory (even though if you rewatch that episode, the promise to call wasn't a set in stone thing, more of a way to end the conversation bc lorelai interrupted them), he takes her out to see the distillers and then we see them talking about hanging out and watching movies 3 nights in a row. he may not have known exactly what to do or say all of the time, but the boy was genuinely trying

and then the world collapsed around him and he went with one of the only survival tools in his belt, running.

he tried to make himself what he would view as worthy of love, he tried to give rory proper love back, but he was never given any new tools for what to do when things go south. if he had had therapy (which should have been required given his circumstances) he could have learned better ways to handle the floor falling out from under him, but he didn't. he put in a ton of effort, but without the help of a better toolbox, the trauma response kicked in

so he finally tried to accept love that he likely felt unworthy of, just for the world to laugh in his face for having the audacity to try to escape the cruel fate of a seemingly loveless childhood

obviously jess comes back a few times, but i'd rather tackle those from rory's side but still with respect to good ol' chbosky's we accept the love we think we deserve

so rory and jess are two sides of the same coin when it comes to their background. they were both raised by single mothers and had absent fathers. the difference is that lorelai always put rory and her needs above all else while liz seemingly didn't.

rory never had to know what not being loved felt like. being loved is her default. and i am not in anyway admonishing lorelai for doing that, i respect the hell out of her for always always always putting rory first, but between her, her grandparents, and the either town of stars hollow, love became being put on a pedestal. the problem with that is that rory is a human being in the human world who is interacting with other humans. but the expectations ingrained in her are unachievable. this is not to say that expecting someone to treat you well is too high of an expectation, but when doing that from a pedestal, the ones who put you up there will never accept anything other than their own expectations

we first see this with dean. at first, lorelai hates him, but once she sees him as the nice guy who changes out the water bottle and ethically gets rid of spiders, she gains a far more positive view of him

so when the first rory and dean break-up happens, lorelai and the town turns on dean for not living up to the expectations that they had for his and rory's relationship

then lorelai finds out about the reason for the break-up, and rather than trying to help rory through her feelings and to navigate what it is that she wants, she just tells rory to not be afraid of love. this tells rory that love is a guy like dean. it doesn't matter if she feels love, it doesn't matter what her perspective of the relationship is and whether she feels like she loves him or not, no. it's that from lorelai's pov, he was a nice guy who loved rory and treated her well (again, just from lorelai's pov, bc she doesn't see the side of dean that is incredibly controlling and gross)

so to rory, love is the guy who calls (even if it's 20 something times in like a 3 or 4 hour period bc why tf does no one ever talk about that scene?? and how did lorelai not get a major fucking ick from it??? idek man), the guy who helps her mom out around the house

her feelings in love don't matter, what she gains from love is what matters.

but then jess comes around and she tries not to be around him too much, but when she is around him, there's an undeniable spark (like the picnic basket to pizza to bookstore shopping pipeline). the problem is, he's nothing like dean

he's nothing like who she has been told embodies love and that scares her to the point that she denies her feelings for jess for a long time, misses her mother's graduation because she chose to go see jess, cheats on dean by kissing jess, hurts jess by running off and not talking to him for moths, and then she's pissed when she gets back and he's not just waiting for her like dean would have done

she's never taught what love should feel like, only what it should look like to people outside of the relationship

so even though she clearly wants something more with jess, she refuses to break things off with dean bc dean = love and jess = bad news

again, her actual feelings don't matter at this point bc of the love she's been told to accept isn't necessarily what love seems to feel like for her

but obviously rory and jess do eventually get together and she immediately starts comparing him to dean (which is why i mentioned earlier that rory was not a perfect girlfriend). she is able to accept that the relationship is different in some ways (like the fact that she and jess actually have stuff in common and it also seems like there was more of a physical desire there than we ever saw with dean ((ex. rory and dean never getting a horizontal kissing scene until it's time to for the affair vs rory and jess having one very early on in their relationship, rory talking to lorelai about potentially sleeping with jess when she never had that thought process with dean))).

so it seems like she was finally having the feelings of love, but because his actions didn't match what dean would have been, she feels insecure. and that insecurity is exacerbated by lorelai also always comparing jess to dean

and then the friday night dinner, jess shows up late with a black eye. rather than her trying to listen with empathy and trying to understand the circumstances behind the situation, she freaks out because it's not what dean would have done AND it goes against everything emily would expect of the guy rory is with.

so, again, rory's view on a relationship is more based on how others perceive the relationship rather than her own feelings of her relationship. but she's also just a teenage girl who is doing what she's been taught to do: rely on others expectations rather than her own feelings

and we see time and time again, that anytime her relationship doesn't live up to the expectations of those around her, she bottles it up and refuses to try to have an actual honest and open conversation about her feelings and what she needs out of her relationship

jess only even finds out rory is upset with him because lorelai tells him. and, as mentioned earlier, once he knows, he makes a much bigger effort to be what rory deserves

then obviously everything goes south and rory ends up with her heart broken, but it also seems like she doesn't feel like she can open up to anyone about the heartbreak without hearing a million i told you sos because no one ever thought jess was good enough for her, so she has to squash that pain down, but we definitely see it throughout s4 esp considering it's the only season of the entire show that rory is single the entire time

she put herself out there for someone she was told was less than her and it slapped her in the face. and jess comes back and tells her that he loves her and then again to ask her to run away with him, but she's already been burnt from trusting a love that others told her was beneath her and she's not in a place to take that chance again

so what does she do? she runs to dean even though he's married. she was always told he was what she deserved, so maybe she could erase the pain from taking a chance on someone who wasn't in a place to be able to handle life like an adult (bc he wasn't an adult, SHOCKER!!) so she sought refuge in who she was told was right for her

and then everyone (rightfully) judged her for it. and she tried to stick it out with dean bc he was supposed to be the perfect one. even when we see in s5 where things are so clearly not working out between the two of them, she once again refuses to break anything off bc of the messages that she's received her entire life. he does eventually break things off with her again, but this time it seems a little less dramatic than their previous ones bc suddenly stars hollow isn't rory's main tie anymore, now it's yale and the world of her grandparents.

which brings us to logan.

dean is to lorelai as logan is to richard and emily

rory is fully integrated into yale by s5 when she meets logan. he represents the world of her grandparents and their expectations for her and what kind of love she should receive.

it should be one based on family name and earning potential. and it helps that logan is also attractive

so with rory spending exponentially more time in her grandparents world than she ever had before, she starts to take on their expectations for what she should be looking for

it shouldn't matter if logan is gone all the time, bc richard is gone on business trips all the time

it shouldn't matter if she is able to realize her dream of being a journalist bc emily is a stay at home wife who manages their social calendar and the employees who work in their home

it shouldn't matter if she even graduates as long as she gets a MRS with a blue blood

logan doesn't know rory's birthday, but no big deal bc richard is constantly forgetting about events emily has told him about

logan got her a birkin bag!! something she didn't even know what it was or the value of it, but emily is jealous so it must be a good gift even if it doesn't actually mean anything to rory

logan cheated on her with all of honor's bridemaids?? it's merely a small thing to overcome just like richard metting pennilynn lott monthly for decades without telling emily about it. they worked through it, so that's gotta be love, right?

and as rory falls deeper and deeper into a world that she's naturally great at fitting into, logan doesn't even notice or care to notice how she's drowning in living up to the expectations of her grandparents vs the expectations of her mother vs her expectations of herself

and she's still never been taught to talk through feelings, so she just continually sabotages herself and logan doesn't give a fuck about it until suddenly rory's ex is back in the picture

and what do we see of jess in his s6 return(s)? we see a more grown up jess who took all of his broken pieces and tried to turn them into somebody that he's proud to be, though he doesn't wear it with arrogance

obviously we see very very little of his life, but it seems like he has finally found that the most important person to love him has to be himself. he tried to fix himself for rory and it didn't work. but he fixed himself for himself and he's suddenly achieving dreams he didn't even know he was worthy of having to begin with

however, rory is now the one in the situation where she isn't loving herself or taking care of her own wants and needs enough to be able to accept the love that she truly deserves, because she's never been given those tools

and i'm not saying that rory didn't love logan, but it does feel very much like she was expected to love logan. and after the philly visit when she might have finally been reconsidering what she wants love to look like in her life, logan nearly dies and she has to put her own wants and needs on the backburner for him

she has to make herself small while he heals

and then s7 doesn't even matter bc asp left and the show gave logan a complete personality switch where he suddenly gave a shit about things other than getting wasted and having fun with the ldb

and then in ayitl we still see rory constantly self-sabotaging until jess, who was never supposed to be good enough for her, gives her the nudge she needs to take a more proactive role in her own life (for the second time)

idek what all of this means, but it's just so interesting that neither of them were ever taught what love should actually be, but jess is given the room to grow and discover at least some level of self love, while rory, ever the gifted and talented kid, keeps getting stuck in the cycle of other peoples expectations vs her own

which makes writing her book even though lorelai wasn't thrilled about it all the more impactful and it was something she wouldn't have done had she not talked to the guy who everyone else always villainized and learned that expectations are not actually reality

[monny287]

I actually like contrasting this scene--and, in fact, Jess's whole relationship with Shane--with his scene with Rory in "The Real Paul Anka." The quote we accept the love we think we deserve definitely applies in both episodes.

Preceding this outburst is Luke incredulously confronting Jess about his relationship with Shane. When Luke finds out they kind of mutually treat each other like crap, he, baffled, asks if Jess is happy with that arrangement. And Jess confirms that he is. Granted, he is mostly using Shane to make Rory jealous, but it's telling that he doesn't care enough about himself to find someone who actually likes him.

But it's such a small but understated part of Jess's character development by season 6 that when Rory kisses him back, ostensibly to get revenge on Logan, the first thing he says is "I don't deserve this." Beyond turning his life around and making something of himself, he's also gained a hell of a lot of self worth in the process.

[mynonclicheblog]

thinking about how logan still didn't know when rory's birthday was after knowing her for almost a year (and dating for much of that time), then a few episodes later we see that jess still remembers her birthday after 2+ years apart.

that was intentional.

[monny287]

Considering those episodes are back to back and the episode with Jess goes out of its way to portray Jess as more mature and better suited for Rory, it definitely was intentional. It just another of the many juxtapositions between Jess and Logan in those episodes.

Also, I didn't consider it until just now, but it's also a nice continuity nod to Jess's attention to detail where Rory is concerned. Very reminiscent of him knowing Yale is 22.8 miles from Stars Hollow.

[monny287]

It's been almost a decade since AYITL came out and I can't believe I'm only now realizing it starts in the winter and ends in the fall because "winter, spring, summer, or fall" are the lyrics to "You've Got a Friend," which was written and recorded (among many other artists) by Carole King.

[cookiedoughmeagain]

Vince in Countdown: "In 1981, the Troubles came back in June. ... It was a god awful summer. Lucy hadn't shown up yet and the Troubles were happening unabated."

Penny Driscoll in The Tides That Bind: "Lucy was only in Haven a few months. ... Just like she appeared one day, she was gone. It was a few days after the Colorado Kid murder." (Which the Haven Herald puts in May 1983 and which also signals the end of the Troubles.)

Nathan, in Butterfly: "February 1983. I went sledding ... I crashed into a tree ... I never felt a thing. ... Couple years later, I got better, and I stopped hearing about [the Troubles]."

Duke, in Countdown: "The Troubles used to last a couple years..."

[monny287]

Outside of Nathan's comment about "a couple of years later," I don't think any of these statements really conflict with each other. Nathan's could be written off by the fact that he was so young when the Troubles came around the last time and they seem to cause some issues with memory in town. But if anything, the others tend to follow the experience of the Troubles as they are in Audrey's timeline. They've been around for awhile when she gets there, not everyone is Troubled at once--they develop over time, triggered by an external event--and she isn't there that long before she's supposed to leave. And this tracks with the other overlays, as well. Garland is implied to have been dealing with the Troubles for awhile before Lucy arrives on the scene, and while we don't see Sarah explore the Troubles in the '50s that much, she's around in Haven long enough to get pregnant and give birth--so the better part of a year. And the time traveling Troubled guy is already Troubled IN 1955, so they have existed in Haven before she got there.

There are definitely issues with the timeline, but it's more about the present Troubles and how long characters imply they've been going. From the way Nathan talks, they've been around for months, but Dwight's Trouble was triggered while he was deployed in Afghanistan and it certainly doesn't seem like Lizzie was killed recently. Meanwhile, the Glendowers would have had to leave Haven way before "The Tides that Bind" if they'd been around too long, and either Chris's dad became mayor super fast, was mayor in the '80s and has been holding that power, or the Troubles been around for quite awhile.

[ooh-la-literati]

Might be a little late to say, but I think it's funny how Harper's Bazaar lists all of Rory's boyfriends as "most toxic", but Dean's description is "control-freak derived from insecurity and jealousy issues", Logan's is "mind-manipulator and tolerant of his family treating you poorly", and for Jess it's...."can't communicate or tell you that he loves you." Yeah...I think I'm sticking with the one who simply struggles with words and doesn't provide a consistent helping of abuse with the relationship

[monny287]

Its also a weird analysis because he did tell her? And was the only one to say it without creating weird expectations around it or saying it to manipulate.

[stellaluna33]

Ok, so in AYITL Summer, Jess tells Rory that he's "meeting Luke" and then the visit ends with Luke peering through the window of the Gazette, obviously looking for Jess. So... this gets me thinking... How did Luke know (or at least suspect) that he would find Jess there? 😂 Did Jess TELL Luke that he was stopping by to see Rory first? That would be (even by Adult Jess standards) almost uncharacteristically Responsible of him, not to mention risky! (The risk being Luke going, "You're going to see Rory? Why? Why are you going to see Rory?" 🙄) And if not, did Luke just go LOOKING for Jess, and thought he might find him wherever Rory was? 😭 Like he saw his car parked so he knew Jess had arrived, but wasn't THERE, so where would he go? Hmm, maybe he's with Rory accepting lunch invitations like he doesn't even have other places to be! 😅😭 Like, there is no answer to this that isn't REALLY funny.

(unless it's just "the writers didn't think about the ramifications of what they were doing," which may in fact be true, but it's NO FUN! Haha)

[monny287]

I've been wanting to respond to this all week but I've been slammed. I am definitely of the opinion that Jess did tell Luke he was going to swing by the Gazette and to meet him there. For one, Luke's walking towards the newspaper with a little too much purpose for someone who is just wandering looking for someone. For another, it definitely explains why Luke asks Jess if he's "over that" when Rory shows him her manuscript. Otherwise, they don't really discuss Rory and that conversation wouldn't make as much sense given that Jess tells him it's just a "work thing." But a "work thing" combined with "Hey, Luke, I know I'm in town to help you get Liz out of a vegetable cult, but I'm going to stop by to see my ex-girlfriend and probably love of my life, would you mind meeting me there?" makes Luke's question make a whole lot more narrative sense.

But it does bring to mind something else, in the vein of "the writers didn't think about the ramifications of what they were doing." Despite the way their parent/child dynamics are portrayed outright, Rory doesn't share anything about Jess with Lorelai after about season 4, while Jess actually shares a lot about his relationship with Rory with Luke just in general. Even in AYITL, Lorelai is surprised to find that Jess and Rory are in contact at all, while Luke outright asks Jess about his feelings. As a result, there's a really good chance that Luke knows way more about the inner workings of the Literati relationship than Lorelai does, and that would drive her absolutely bonkers.

[stellaluna33]

Thinking about a scenario where Jess gets sent to live with Luke several years earlier, and Rory is the quiet, studious girl the teacher makes him sit next to in class, in the hopes that she'll be a "good influence" on him and there will be fewer class disruptions. 😆

[monny287]

I am just here reiterating my opinion from my old blog (and like, five years ago) that it is such retcon BS that Jess and Rory didn't meet until they were teenagers. With all of what's implied about both Liz's past with Jess and her relationship with Luke, it's very unlikely this is the first time she's shipped Jess off to Connecticut to stay with him, and Luke has known Lorelai since Rory was young enough to have chicken pox. They might not remember meeting, but it definitely happened long before 17. I also think it's weird that with how long Luke and Lorelai have known each other, she's never once heard him mention he has a sister or a nephew. I get it, Jess wasn't conceived of as a character until later, but still.

I still have a headcanon that Jess spent a summer in Stars Hollow when he was like, 8, and he and Rory end up in the same summer day camp because Luke doesn't know what to do with him and he needs the socialization anyway, and Rory is too old to follow Lorelai around the inn while she works but too young to be left alone all day. Neither of them remember this until years later, when one of them mentions "the incident" (never to be explained in full) and the other corrects something they misremembered.

[cloysterbell]

HAVEN | 4x07 'Lay Me Down'

[monny287]

I've always thought Duke's "gotcha" question was a little forced. Duke, you literally just walked in on your brother sucking her blood from her neck like a vampire, she's going to be a little jumpy. And the only reason you were even able to touch her is because she allowed YOU to get close enough to try. It's just...ugh. I love the Duke/Jennifer relationship, but there are some moments that just fall flat. This and the contrived discord in the next episode are just so hard to sit through.

[cloysterbell]

HAVEN | 4x06 'Countdown'

[monny287]

This is probably my favorite scene in the entire series. Overall, I think the show does a great job of realistically handling characters (read: Nathan, usually) and hypocrisy, but I absolutely love the way Audrey calls him out here. The whole first half of the season is Nathan trying to "fix" what he broke by assuring everyone that they'll find Audrey, she'll kill him, and the Troubles will end. It's noble. It's self-sacrificial. And in any other show, Nathan would be seen as wrong for creating the situation, but right in being willing to sacrifice himself to rectify it.

But Audrey is pissed. And not just because she clearly made a choice, and he ran roughshod over it like an asshole, and now they're in this mess. More than pissed, she's hurt that he thinks not only should she kill him to end the Troubles, but that she can. As though her feelings for him are not as strong as his for her--because he couldn't do it, but he expects her to be able to. And as much as she loves him and is glad to drop the facade and let him know she's still alive, she's still angry and she's not afraid to let him know it. And yes, Nathan needed that swift kick in the ass.

[shiggityontherocks]

Hey why doesnt Tali have a French accent? It's proven kids are more likely to have the accents of their peers so you can't say bc her dad isn't French.

Counterpoint: if Tali's peers are considered to be those UN kids that Ziva's school trains, why doesn't Tali speak with a crazy variety of accents?

Super slam counterpoint: other than Tony the Nanny and his assistant (Sophie? I think one of them might be named Claudia bc its the same name as my girl) have logically spent the same if not more time with Tali than Tony has, so why doesn't Tali have a British accent?

Even worse, Tali should have little vernacular instances like Ziva does. Like i know Ziva uses contractions now (ever since she had a baby she uses constractions) but she still has a unique way of speaking and that should be reflected from Tali's baby years.

[monny287]

Good questions, but I think this is kind of both overthinking and oversimplifying the issue at the same time.

For one, people speak their second language with the accent of their first because they learned it after having become fluent their first language. Which, since Tali would have been learning English and French at the same time, wouldn't be an issue. It would actually make less sense for Tali to speak English with a French accent, as it would imply Tali learned English from someone other than the parent she lives with who speaks English as a native language.

Second, early bilingualism is cool in the idea that when you learn multiple languages at an early age, while the brain is still plastic, you learn to speak them without an accent. Or rather, you learn to speak them with a native accent.

Third, this assumes that Tali's primary language with her peers is English, which for narrative convention onscreen might be true, but in reality, it would probably be in French. She probably does speak French in the accent of her peers, but she speaks English at home with Tony and speaks in his accent because that's who she learned English from. This would be like asking why someone who learned English in the US from school, but speaks French at home with their Parisian mother doesn't speak French with a US accent.

And no, Tali wouldn't have picked up on Ziva's small English linguistic tics as a baby, because we know from "Family First" that Ziva didn't speak English with Tali. She spoke Hebrew. By the time Ziva is reunited with them, Tali's linguistic patterns are already set.

Also, do we even know when the nanny became Tali's nanny? It's not realistic for like, a six-year-old to suddenly develop a British accent because they're around someone who has one. Though that is where any linguistic tics in English might come from, and I can imagine Tali asking Tony where her jumper is and Tony being like "...you mean your sweater?"

[vampirlor]

jess mariano is such a funny character bc they wanted a stoner burnout cool guy character but couldn't have a character actually do drugs or have severe mental illnesses on their wholesome small town show so instead he's like a mischievous leprechaun. he draws an outline of a fake body in chalk. he does magic tricks. he steals gnomes. he reads vonnegut in the back of the classroom. loserest man to exist

[monny287]

The funniest thing about it to me is that the stakes get substantially higher as the show goes on and matures, so Jess's bad boy persona in season 2 and 3 is hilariously mild compared to the tone of later seasons. Like, between Rory and Jess, only one of them has a felony on their record...and it isn't Jess.

[mightyuncomfychair]

Ok, so I've been trying to come up with an answer to this for a while and still can't. In season 4 episode 10,'the trouble with troubles,' Audrey wakes up in a world without troubles. When she's wondering around some of the first people she meets are the Teagues, HOWEVER, it doesn't make a luck of sense that Dave would be there in a world without the troubles. He was put up for adoption like Jennifer, BECAUSE of the troubles, so why is he in this universe?

At first, I assumed it was just because Croatoan would still exist, but that doesn't really fit because why still put Dave there anyway and not somewhere else. Dave was put in Haven because of the high concentration of troubles and aether so Croatoan could have a lot of control of him. So it would make more sense to put Dave elsewhere, where he would be more useful. If there are no troubles, why even have Haven on your mind?

Let's also say that wishing the troubles away also wished Croatoan away. Then Dave shouldn't be there at all. It was said that he was a hybrid of sorts (I think), so he shouldn't have been born if there was no reason to explore the Thinnies.

The Teagues seem to be rich no matter what universe they are in so is it just coincidence, that alot of their lives stayed the same resulting in a weird parallel, where Dave was born on Earth and still adopted into the family? Their lives are the only ones who stayed kind of consistent, with Duke becoming the thing he dislikes, not hates but dislikes, the most and Nathan, proudly calling himself a Hansen and becoming a doctor, both of which I have diffrent thoughts on for another post. But the Teagues, they seem the same in a way.

All in all, this is one of those plotholes that I can't come up with a good answer for. What do yall think?

[monny287]

"The Trouble with Troubles" has always bothered me for all of its weird and random plot holes. Especially since the lore and backstory of Haven pre-Troubles had already been explored at that time, in "Sarah," and this episode just...ignores it all? Duke is supposed to be third-generation Haven PD, similar to real-Haven Nathan, but there's never any explanation given for how Roy Crocker went from being a bartender to being a cop. And while it's believable that Nathan would be a Hansen, not a Wuornos, if the Troubles had never existed and he'd never been adopted by the Chief, but it doesn't explain where the hell Garland is, a guy who was raised in Haven and had been a cop long before the last round of Troubles. You could argue that Nathan going back in time and giving his father encouragement was what spurred him into becoming a cop, and without that, he didn't, but Garland already wanted to be a police officer as a child; the encouragement was a sweet father/son moment, but it wasn't necessary.

Also, the idea of Nathan being a Hansen and there being very little reference to his backstory makes me wonder if the writers just...forgot?...that Max was an abusive POS towards his wife and son, so bad that Garland gets uncharacteristically emotional about it when Audrey confronts him in "Spiral" and Nathan doesn't remember him at all. And Nathan had already been Garland's son for some time by the time the last round of Troubles started (as implied by pretty much everything in "Just Passing Through") so this is what Max was like in a Trouble-free world. But sure, Nathan Hansen is a perfectly fine, well-adjusted doctor.

It was one of the more lazily-written episodes of the series and one of my least watched, to be honest. I'm not a huge fan of AU episodes to begin with, because they tend not to explore the concept as fully as they should, but this one was especially egregious.

[acecroft]

HAVEN 1.01

[monny287]

My favorite thing about this exchange is that we find out in "As You Were" that Audrey has an ankle holster with a backup weapon so yes, indeed, she could pull out another gun.

[cookiedoughmeagain]

Watching The Trial of Audrey Parker and trying to get my head around what Agent Howard is doing when he's hectoring Audrey about arresting Troubled people. It seems to be the exact opposite of what Howard would actually think. Is it pure reverse psychology? Seems a bit unnecessary when she's already in Haven anyway.

Also amused by his assumption the reason Audrey has no phone signal is there's never going to be any signal inside a metal box. Amusing in the context of all the various phone conversations Duke will go on to have in that same room.

[monny287]

Howard's goal is to get her to stay--to get her to want to stay and help the Troubled, since that's the ultimate point of all the overlays. He's trying to piss her off enough to tell him to screw himself, that she's staying in Haven and getting to the bottom of it. And it works. And in "Sarah," where Sarah calls Howard from a payphone and has a nearly identical conversation with him that Audrey did in the pilot about staying in Haven, this is part of his job. It's not enough that the overlays are physically in Haven, they have to want to stay and want to help the Troubled. It's part of the cosmic punishment inflicted on Mara, adding insult to injury that not only do the overlays help the Troubled, but that they genuinely care about doing so.

My favorite part of that episode is the insinuation Audrey makes that Howard trained Fox Mulder, which at first just seems like a fun shout-out but in retrospect, makes it seem like Howard got all his information about being an FBI agent/FBI supervisor from watching TV in the Barn in the '90s.