finding myself both fascinated and highly amused by the thought that Rosie, having lost one of her primary assets, gives up on dealing with Alastor on a professional level entirely and instead starts scouting Vox as a potential replacement. He's the only sinner to even come close to rivalling Alastor in power (if only for a moment), he's currently desperate enough to be an easy mark, and—this is the really key thing—Alastor will take it so fucking personally when he finds out that she thinks the pathetic television is a suitable replacement for him.
Vox sitting on Rosie’s lap tho. Rosie loves having her handsome little picture box sitting so nicely for her. Poor Vox is just trying to be a gentleman and resist the urge to rest his head on her bosom (it’s not his fault! she’s so pretty and she pets his head so nicely!) Not that Rosie would mind, of course. Good boys should be allowed to be comfortable and cared for, that’s her motto.
Vox being Rosie’s man is so cute! I’m just picturing him bringing her flowers because his 1950’s man brain is screaming “pretty lady need flowers!!” at him.
Started drawing this one not thinking about this ask but then realized it fits
So @diamondkat often brings up that Alastor and Rosie are meant to call back to Mary and Bert from Mary Poppins and a pilot pally of mine brought it back to my mind.
I'd like to examine if Alastor and Rosie are faithful to this impression since the dissemination of their dynamic is mostly about defining if they are friends and to what degree. It is funny now that I am thinking about it how even when I see those two placed together as a ship it has a way of still feeling like he is ace and that's likely because there is a foundational acceptance of each other that frames their relationship. She literally gives us the famous "Oh I'm just kidding. I know you're an Ace in the hole" line which means you can always assume that's her general understanding of him. I feel like, even if she doesn't use the same words, Mimzy has also figured this out. Even when you see artist and writers getting particularly flavorful and dark with their interpretations of RadioRose, unlike most other Alastor ships this one demonstrably shows his willingness to reach for Rosie's aid (both alive and as a demon) and to be willing to subjugate himself at her will. The variety you can find from other Alastor ships often comes from the fact that we don't know the way Alastor feels (and half the time the other character) canonically so everyone seasons the meal to their liking. However with Rosie, Alastor will perform as assistant in a lot of ways and he clearly sought to be like her and imitate the way she has survived in hell.
In short, even if you present the most unemphatic and pathologically dark Alastor you could carve out he would still respect Rosie, her power, and how she maintains it. It's a pretty unfamiliar behavior to see from Alastor and while there are plenty of implications that, similar to Husk most likely, Alastor chose Rosie because he was aware of what she wouldn't do just as much as what she would do which implies that she simply has not "wronged" him beyond his own measure of fairness so he responds with equal pliability. In other words, on the argument that nothing he says can be trusted he simply might have extended his hand back to Rosie at the end of season two because he finds her power and way of working unbeaten by the competition.
Now, I've seen Mary Poppins but I don't have the strength to re-watch it. Outside of the musical aspects I don't really...care for some of the sexist implications of the movie. The birth mother is only interested in the suffragette struggle as a point of vanity and the moral fulfillment is that she quit that foolishness and be a good mother, it's lame at best and harmful if being reasonable. Since I rather like being able to vote, I don't particularly respect this movie. But that said I admit to putting it in the same group as Annie, which has worse flaws imo, so I understand what people enjoy about it.
That out of the way, this particular side of Alastor and Rosie's comparison I think is meant to draw on the way they both perform for others. I brought up the sexism of Mary Poppins because sexism is a particularly important aspect of Alastor and Rosie's dynamic and I don't think Rosie is meant to be seen as anything like the gentle hearted magical Nanny. She is motherly and treats leadership as a care taking role, so she does fulfil some of these arc types for the character, but she is like queen of all cannibals in hell so I recon there is a mite of a difference in her definition of discipline and fairness.
Similarly, while Alastor is a quick thinking and charismatic, Bert is a legitimate source of moral compass and the voice of reason where Alastor most absolutely is not. Ironically, I think Alastor knows the "good" moral answer most of the time but deliberately chooses otherwise since he so often scrutinizes everyone else's behavior as being justified or not. But he lies with the truth and everything he says and does is so wrapped up in double meaning you literally cannot be sure if anything he has said from episode one is true in the way he implied it. Rosie and Alastor are Bert and Mary because those are their stage names, their personas, and what they hope people see when they come dancing into a room. I think that Alastor and Rosie are earnest as a friendship comparison here, even if they are dark mirrored versions of their counterparts, because they are consensually dealing and dancing through hell together. They did not pick how what people considered fair in life or in death but they did pick their side. They really fulfil their reference to these characters even in the moments were is seems like there is no kindness between them because they aren't meant to have the same type of love, empathy, and humanity as Mary and Bert but are meant to see each other as equals on the stage and a well suited duet.
Really pulling the clicking the pixels off the pngs at this point with how much I think about Hazbin Hotel characters but while we are here I also think these two are Team Rocket coded. It's like when everything should make a ship straight and neither of them ever deny if but you are waiting for one of them to come out every second. They have that flavor but older and established and similar to team rocket its often played into by making the male think little of or understand little of women (while often being pretty feminine himself) and the women being a lot more upfront that she thinks men are morons. With characters like Jessie and James this is meant to be made funny by Jessie still wanting male attention (even though she really just desired fame and money which was a cover for her desire for security) or James being brought joy by things he isn't supposed to like, his vanity in this case, and his only emotional story being about him not being able to conform to expectations in society. Jessie isn't supposed to actually hate men, she is just a humor-lens for the audience and a slapstick arc type and James doesn't look down on anybody, despite being wealthy and attractive. They are the lovable mascot of this type of set up, I think, they get married in the manga.
Playing in a similar space as a duo that even sings and dances together and can appear heteronormative, Alastor and Rosie are, again, a less healthy parallel as their story is in hell and is, well, full of the worst people and situations and weather. Even though Alastor and Rosie seem to have defined themselves and survived because of a very particular perspective on others they are both victims of their own gendered bias and sexism. Just as Alastor shares Rosie's cold deal making tactics, lies with lies personas, and sense of mystery they also share similar blind spots and failings.
Most of the relationships and dynamics in Hazbin and Hellauverse have some kind of opposite or inverting dynamic that either constantly makes one side the perfect target for the other or makes it a requirement for one or both to grow and change to keep or protect it. Angel and Val being represented by the moth and spider as well as Val's seemingly pathetic desire for Vox who displays literal revilement at Angeldust's personhood and expression is one of many examples of this. The overlords make the choice to violate someone else's autonomy and humanity in some way that feels justified to them. I'm sure Carmilla sees herself as fair because the Vees are far more exploitive and that Alastor, for example, justifies his actions very easily by comparing what he could do to people and what others are clearly willing to do to him. But when they make up these lines, which only make sense to them and don't correct the systemic source of their problems, they believe they are going to be freed from the doom that their action is clearly inspired by.
They often make their own prophies in hell. Carmilla constantly sings about wanting to protect her loved ones and her desire for this simply allows her to rationalize any cost making her morals slide farther and farther away from where she is clearly comfortable; it is her most human and good parts that make her easier to hurt in hell and this is mostly true for all the sinners. Part of the reason I think people wonder if Rosie is someone else is because she seems so totally unburdened whereas every other sinner is actively gutting themselves deeper in a hole. I adore that Lucifer is literally the devil who torments people but not in the way we thought. I.E. "Idle hands are the devil’s workshop; idle lips are his mouthpiece / An evil man sows strife; gossip separates the best of friends /Wickedness loves company—and leads others into sin" Proverbs says google. Sorry to quote the bible in the tumblr post what a Monday but I just love how the sinners keep proving hell is people and cause their own environment to be worse than if someone went to the effort to causing them harm because they can't help trying to find a way to avoid or destroy their fear. Most people would do anything to avoid feeling vulnerable forever even though most of the sinners in hell are clearly not as willing to destroy as the overlords, that's just our focus. Rosie's parallels to Alastor are as clear as the snacks they eat in the cannibal town parlor but they are also another one of these endlessly looping example of people punishing people in the worst way possible.
Starting with Smiles, Alastor see's men as a short series of their worst traits and he offers deference to women in control in a way he simply will not to any man. He is still easily upset by people treating him rudely or being indifferent to his reputation, like we see when he has to bite his tongue after Carmilla calmly says "not really, but welcome back in any case," and all he can do is keep being polite. It's like masking politeness is its biggest survival strategy to his anger issues. When the show was first coming out a lot of people wondered if Alastor would kill women and settled into the idea that while he doesn't punch down or go after easy prey he will remove anyone who is in the way of something he wants or that threatens his safety. He reads as a benevolent misogynist which is what it is called when men think women are deserving of protections or special treatment because they are fairer, weaker, gentler, or oppressed. (It sounds weird to include oppressed but often ppl cope with treating the symptom and not the cause and fall into these behaviors even when they know its harmful). A lot of older people and people who would algin with gender essentialist ideals align with the belief set of benevolent misogyny as it is re-enforced in the care taking of mothers who were asked and did sacrifice opportunities to devote themselves to childcare and the like which is not to rationalize it has fixed but to simply signify that it is a factor. Also, I don't mean to justify it with this statement but it re-enforces like a survival mechanism. If Alastor deeply loved his mother and she suffered the axis of both racism and sexism, misogynoir, then it pretty easily explains why he grew up to be the kind of bully who likes to pick on bullies. It is an expression of his own powerlessness to actually give his protections to the people impacted.
It is easier, and much more expected in the time period, that Alastor internalize many of his own identity issues and had to develop a way of seeing the world in a way that made it possible for him to win. It's harder to forgive things that are done to people you love than it is to forgive things that happen to you and it can be tormenting to watch your parent struggle. Alastor doesn't voice any moral ideals that people should work to be better but sees people, similar to Lucifer, as unchanging and mostly bad. Despite disliking everyone around him Alastor wants a seat at the table if power and control; he wants to win the game even though he knows it's a inherently immoral system because he wants to beat the worst of them on their own terms and still win. His sense of self is what makes him so strong but his humanity, just like everyone else, means he has to look for a reason to justify his desire to help people when he knows he blames them for their lack of effort or thought. I'm sorry it was still the hands down funniest moment in the show when Charlie told Alastor he would be excited for who was at the door. The Morningstars are everything to meeee. If they told me in season three they were doing this to torment these souls on purpose I wouldn't call it jumping the shark it kills me how much she hurts the people she means to help its practically the good place level of bad place how Angel left.
There is conflict of want, need, and external and internal motivations in almost all of his relationships and it make sense that he functions this way and that he would then have this blind spot as a result. A little blemish of his humanity that shows up to make his choices not always a pragmatic as they should be but he can explain it away by being a good team player or some aspect of his time period. While we often debate if he has or wants friends, which I think he does, I do firmly assert that Alastor wants a "party" to keep the "fun" going. I think he is that sort of chaotic villain and he already proved he "likes" Niffty, Husk, Rosie, and Charlie (2 out of 3 of the vees) even if we have to wait to see what exactly favoritism and fairness means to Alastor he can't hide that he has preferences. He won't kill Vox until Vox becomes boring which is the one thing the little battery fucker never is so good for him on his sisyphean romance that is something of an ouroboros powered to life by his own agony it doesn't exist. You don't take the drama off of the reality show and Alastor is a radio host, like he is constantly aware of fans, audience, and performance in everything he does. But any form of sexism is a flaw, a blind spot, that will distort the characters ability to perceive things with accurate neutrality. He can justify being meaner to Husk and more pushy with Charlie based on rules that only make sense to him. Like a human, he is not as fair as he likes to think he is.
Ironically, Alastor clearly behaves like women are perfectly strong, smart, and capable to do anything men can do and treats any women in authority is meets with polite respect. He is well mannered to his core, which has it's own tragic undertones. Alastor fought like he could win a seat at the table and then he would have enough power and control to protect himself both alive and in hell but the problems that impact people like Alastor and his mother are systemic and require a change beyond just his individual control. As Alastor seeks to compete and survive he sees the women competitors around him as having inherent barriers to their livelihood impacted by how others perceive them and that makes for an ease of empathy when he observes their disrespect or struggles. Similar to how Alastor needs a fight to want to kill, the more people create problems the more license it gives him to being firm in his belief set. Behold a beautiful pintrest meme:
My point with this Alastor intersection is that while I would still call him a benevolent sexist and he is plenty condescending to women who don't conform to his expectations of gender, such as smiling and being cheerful, he doesn't believe inherently lesser of women- but its a thin line. He's talks down to Charlie but he attempts to be punishing to Vaggi because he perceives her dislike of him as rudeness, whereas he might be likely to read it as a challenge or show of weakness from a man. Just as Charlie operates with a lens between herself and human beings where she has lines she clearly already decided she will not cross regardless of their choices, Alastor and Rosie have a gendered way of addressing the exact same experiences from people. It sounds silly to say so bluntly but they directly treat people different based on their gender and both of them are too prideful to realize this has a negative impact on them. They think they are the most rational person, naturally. But Husk's similarly to Mimzy means that Alastor's choice to be threatening is a choice, which I've talked about plenty. It doesn't matter if you think Alastor should care about Husk, it doesn't give him any advantage to be as violent as he was when Husk is consistently prone to being helpful. He doesn't want to or even know how to be nice to men, which is why is distance from Husk is like his own version of being kind. He doesn't have to flatter or lie to Husk and he directly makes Husk experience of being stuck with him worse than he clearly needs to or is even required.
He's mean to Husk for no real reason and beyond the weight it has built in Husk overtime it also prevents Alastor from seeing when he is breaking his own rules about punching down. Alastor's heavy handedness with Husk in season one in comparison to Husk's reverence for him in season two sets up the scene where Rosie laughs at Alastor's death, refuses to give him aid for what seems at her own disadvantage, and then makes him dance in reminder of his contract to put him in his place. She moves around Alastor like he is not someone she takes very seriously and the symbolic use of puppetry and cages is pretty clear. You can even assert that Alastor would not have had the army to fight with if he could not have gotten Charlie to Rosie but he would have still be expected to defend the hotel when the attack arrived because Rosie is a grand old demonic deal maker who gives nothing for nothing. She is Baba Yaga and he is the lost boy who thinks he is clever enough to trick her and live.
This is where a lot of people felt like these two lost the important silhouette of the likeable Bert and Mary. However, as I established before Alastor's sexism analysis now in context helps me feel like they are still these characters, just demonic and struggling with the cost of their own ambitions. Rosie's capacity for apathy surprised people and people have even wondered if she feared or distrusted Alastor has it should have been to her benefit to fix his staff. I said before that she functioned as a mentor and a teacher for Alastor about the brutality of the deal, what it can really take from you no matter how clever you are, and in the same vein that Alastor is "kind" by leaving Husk alone it is that Rosie is "respectful" by not giving Alastor a favor.
She isn't going to treat him like he is her actual child, even if he likely spent plenty of time parading around cannibal town like a prince of gore, and she isn't going to treat him differently than she would any man. Being in control of someone's soul for decades upon decades is going to put a mental toil on both sides about what the relationship is between them and what is means to both of them. If Rosie is honest about the tragedy of Alastor's situation with her she can do him the respect of not pretending her decisions are motivated our of fairness or concern for him. The Vees have so many employees that they have to worry about their reputation and so you see them constantly coming with reasons and language that puts the blame back on the soul who agreed to their conditions, they are perpetual victim blamers and the manipulate in every way possible. Rosie is effectively taking the blame directly and without pretense as a way of being genuine about what Alastor's situation is. She isn't misleading him, she cares about him and likes to see him, she clearly thinks he's impressive and they've danced both seasons but she won't use those moments to justify why he should accept her decisions. She doesn't lie about having limited power or ask him to trust her, she honestly tells him it doesn't work that way and that she flatly refuses. She lets him know what kind of monster she is and if he forgets that he is going to get hurt and he passes that hard lesson onto Husk, effectively training him through "tough love" to that trusting people or doing things for them without gain will get you killed. But If Husk actions seem to be more trusting towards Alastor than they should I would guess it is cause Alastor has a hard time being as strict as he pretends to be.
Alastor must earn anything he gets from her or he doesn't deserve it, no man deserves her mercy or empathy for what they got themselves into. There are similar implications between the corresponding relationships as Husk clearly is not controlled from saying whatever he wants even if its obvious he can't get away with just telling Alastor's secrets and likely would not easily because of the possible consequences (he doesn't believe he can or try to escape Alastor so all of Husk choices are lens through the belief that then Alastor WILL find out or WILL do whatever he says he will). Alastor is left to his own devices and there is truth that he will do what he needs to keep the expectations of their deal in order without her having to even help him figure out how.
It is like they are deliberately trying to give their paramours trust out of a sense of fairness or maybe empathy to being control or that they are demonstrating the absolute assurance of their control by not having to do anything at all. Alastor is of course the most violent towards Husk when Husk brings up his contract to Rosie because Alastor desperately wants to be seen as in control. He is worthy of empathy in that he has never been free a day in hell and has lapped his time in life while dead and under Rosie's service, Alastor has been suffering in hell for as much as he pretends he hasn't, but he not reasonable or ever close to justified in his mistreat of Husk. By the end of season two it is so clear how much Husk is never a physical threat to Alastor, even if a fight between them would be exciting Husk isn't likely, for multiply factors, to try and attack or be intimidating to Alastor. A lot of people have given commentary that they read it as him being triggered or an example of his anger issues, that he literally had a slip of behavior there as opposed to him have a significant pattern of violence. I'm on the side that I think he is not particularly going out of his way to hurt Husk but I have to imagine the length of their time together is long enough that a pattern is there even if its spaced apart. Alastor controls Husk with fear and physiological abuse is still abuse. He ends this interaction telling Husk "it's always nice to catch up" as if to really push the idea that there is nothing worth mentioning about what he just did. He is meaner than he needs to be because he wants Husk not to try and help him, we can really see him have this same problem with Niffty in season two. Unlike with Carmilla and Lucifer, Alastor is able to get away with letting his temper flare when he is reminded how much he is lacking again and Husk is clearly thrown off by this.
While I don't think Alastor torments him, he isn't forgiving or considerate or empathic to Husk words or wishes which is how Rosie treats him when he's been hurt the worst doing her work. There are plenty good post pointing out how Alastor copies Rosie in how he interacts with Husk which is probably one of the biggest suggests we have that Alastor fully recognizes Husk's humanity at all. He won't treat Husk worst than he was treated, a sign of respect, but he won't treat him better, a sign of resentment or disregard. Similarly Rosie won't cross lines for Alastor and it doesn't matter that his loyalty to her is likely much deeper than the skin. Just like in life, he'd rather win at their game on their terms just to show them how much they underestimated him.
At the end of Mary Poppins, Mary leaves and Bert waves her goodbye as he returns to his everyday shenanigans. Comparing them to Alastor and Rosie: She is the Glinda in the bubble who internally hoovers to guide mortals on their lessons and he is meant to be dreaming child. She doesn't act like losing is something she thought was possible when he is suddenly free. But instead of attacking her directly, something she clearly didn't fear personally or in a power sense, or breaking his character and begging or sobbing or trying to offer more of himself for a deal as a means to return his power and his safety as soon as she stopped benefiting him he stopped hiding just how clever he was.
While Alastor was struggling to get out of his deal if it had kept him off the air this whole time he might have struggled sooner. I don't think escaping from his deal was a very high priority as completing Rosie's conditions would have been an acceptable request for the power he gained if he could have only found what she wanted. Just like we see with Husk again, who isn't making the efforts he could to get away from Alastor, Alastor benefited from his relationship with Rosie and they likely decided which overlords to pick off together based on her comment about territory when he brought Charlie in to the cannibal parlor. He would have gotten out of his deal sooner rather than later but likely before the fight with Vox that took him off the air he wouldn't have felt the need to rush. I wonder if it is likely that Alastor might take more than he had before and push Husk to that point of fighting back but while Alastor ironically shares Rosie's hate for men in general he does not share her actual interest and respect to the person he is in control of.
One of Rosie and Alastor's largest differences seems to be that Rosie does like being the weaver of people and she enjoys being in charge of the town, and while Alastor also likes treading discourse and manipulating perspectives, he doesn't seek to be in control or be responsible for other people. Rosie wants to be the mama mayor and Alastor wants people to listen to his broadcast and not bump into him at parties. He wants to be a singer on the stage, not the guy in charge of clean up and safety or having to invest of other people's problems, he wants to have fun. And in that way they do cycle right back to Mary and Bert where, as is revealed at the end of season two, Rosie does have some overt concern in being protective to all, if not to Charlie in some deeper way, literally making her the Nanny that magically takes care of things while Mommy is away! (being...a...heaven suffergette?) Alastor is still a perfect Bert as he is bouncing around having fun between the adventures of others, not actually invested in Rosie's larger scale of justice or ambition but is perfectly happy to do things her way out of admiration and respect. He doesn't mind sharing the stage with other players so long as he can keep playing.
At first I was inclined to agree that these two were absolutely still Bert and Mary based just on how they wore these masks in their performances both in the shows songs and how they pretended to be all sorts of different people to different people, the way a Nanny and a showman both know a dozen songs and games. But they do really fit into the other aspects of the characters now that Rosie is known to be motivated to protect Charlie or her ambitions. There is still a lot we don't know about why she wouldn't assist him at all or her past but she felt it was safer to keep Alastor without full control and when she crossed that line he slipped free. Only this time instead of the Nanny floating off after fixing up the mess, its the chimney sweep who flies off and is now going to make his own story. This was a really fun dive into these two, I feel like they are such an interesting pair and they compliment each other in a very cute and charming way but there is also something really sad about the disconnect between them. I wonder if Alastor cares, since he won, that Rosie would not help him as a friend and I wonder if his exhausting time with Vox and back to back battles before finally getting what he wanted most will make him more or less empathic to Husk and Angel's upcoming issues and Charlie's relationship and family drama. Like I said, I think Alastor wants a party in his own kind of way and now that he is changed from this dynamic is a new way he might be surprisingly nicer than we expect in some ways or sharpen and be free to pick off his built up resentment on other overlords but either way it's likely to be more of a solo performance.
Hey how does Rosie react to Alastor’s blindness in your AU? His “eyes” more resemble hers and the other citizens of Cannibal Town now.
There's no platonic explanation for this /j
idk why it turned out so intimate, but i'm not complaining. I missed drawing them actually.
Me: trying to rewrite the dialogue, to stop it from being a sing
Dialogue: turns into a song anyway (on the 2 first pages at least lol)
I like to imagine that they sometimes wrap >triple meanings into their words just to mess with each other, but they also know one another so well, that they easily read these double meanings, and it's almost like they're speaking in code, and with just few words they're able to tell much more, that no one else would get. That being said, read into their conversation as much as you want
He's barely standing btw, adrenaline ended some time ago, and now he's running on pure spite and pride
I've wanted to redo this one for a while because I did not care for how I did it the first time >:c
I've been wanting to play around more with how colors and saturation effect mood. It's gonna take a hot minute, seeing as colors are the bane of my existence, but much happier with how this came out.
This is a (redone) inspired piece by @zwiazdziarka 's fic Two Shades of Red. It's still an enjoyable read, even if Alastor's and Rosie's relationship is a bit different (they can still be besties while being worsties, right?). I'm a sucker for hanahaki fics, particularly when the love is never quite reciprocated. So if you're interested in a radirose hanahaki fic focusing on the pair's friendship, I recommend it!
Once again, go give the fic and author some love; they still deserve it
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