Salut perdants

Pro-shipper, Multi-fandom, Haters will be blocked.

[nonmercistupide]

A debate I did against a person on reddit about Obito Uchiha (deleted from there tho) wanted to share that here instead:

Here's what they said:

“Obito is the anthesis of the core theme of the series and Naruto as a character. Obito's is essentially Naruto with no faith. Both were orphans with the dream of becoming Hokage.

The core theme of Naruto is the exploration of what it means to endure (忍, nin ). This theme plays out differently in the lives of Naruto, Sasuke, Kakashi, Obito, and Madara, defining their paths as either breaking or perpetuating this cycle. A lot of people flanderize the series' theme as "Hard work vs Talent" when that was isolated into one arc for the most part.

From the Naruto Wiki: The compound kanji nin (忍) means "endure" and is comprised of the kanji for blade (刃) and heart (心), with the literal meaning of "heart under blade". Ninja (忍者) literally means "people who endure", while shinobi (忍び) is a shortened form of shinobi no mono (忍びの者), a native kun'yomi pronunciation of the same phrase, "people who endure".

NARUTO's Selfishness: Naruto's selfishness is a core part of his character. It's how he endures. "I'm not gonna run away and I never go back on my word, that is my nindō! My ninja way!". His nindo is as selfish as you can get. He endures pain and loss not by seeking revenge, but by extending kindness and empathy, ultimately inspiring others to break their own cycles of hatred and offering a path to peace beyond strength.

The last pages of 655 and 573 parallel for a reason. Naruto representing the SUN in page 573 and a Light in the darkness for 655. Narratively, this runs parallel to Sasuke's appearance who in 573. Numerous footprints gathered together, side-by-side, walking towards a brighter future. The subsequent page displays a single set of footprints. Representing isolation and loneliness.

Bottom line, The SUN is selfish, it rises and sets when it wants to, it burns and aids in life whether you want it to or not. The absence of the sun would leave the world cold and desolate (literallly).

OBITO's Rin complex: Your reduction of Obito's character as someone who is obsessed with Rin, is a clear simplification of his character, which in returns harms Kakashi's character as well. Prior to his fall, he despised the shinobi world's ruthless nature, where objectives and war took precedence over human life. His belief of human lives over objectives ironically rubbed off on Kakashi and in return, his foil (Naruto Uzumaki) who was a constant reminder of both his previous self and his failure. Rin was the keystone , the symbol of the innocence and hope that the cruel world repeatedly crushed. When he witnessed her death at Kakashi's hands, it was the final, undeniable proof that his ideals were worthless and that the "real world" was a miserable, painful place. Obito's madness wasn't just about losing a crush; it was about the collapse of his entire worldview. He wasn't just grieving a girl; he was grieving the loss of hope and the realization that the system he wanted to protect was inherently broken. The moment Obito's hand phases through Rin's body is a profoundly important narrative and symbolic detail because it visually represents his permanent physical and emotional separation from her and the real world . Obito's kamui has constantly been used as a powerful, visual for emotional and physical separation, a metaphor for loss, and the desire to escape a painful reality.”

My answer:

Obito isn’t the antithesis of Naruto. He’s the logical conclusion of Naruto’s world. You said Obito is “Naruto without faith.” Exactly. And when someone loses faith in a world that is structurally cruel, unequal, and built on generational trauma, the logical path is the Infinite Tsukuyomi. Naruto can endure because he’s one of the only ones the narrative rewards for enduring. Most people in the shinobi world don’t get that privilege, they endure and die. Obito simply refuses to let that cycle continue. Calling him “faithless” ignores that faith itself is a luxury in their world.

“Enduring” (忍) isn’t inherently noble. It was used to justify suffering. The theme of “nin” (heart under blade) proves my point: The entire shinobi system is built on the idea that you must endure pain inflicted by the powerful. Naruto accepted that system. Obito rejected it. One preserves the blade. One removes the blade entirely. Naruto’s “never go back on my word” is called noble, but it’s still self-centered. His nindō is about his will being absolute, he forces others to orbit his ideology the same way “the sun” forces the world to adapt to its cycle. That’s why calling Naruto the sun makes sense. The sun doesn’t ask permission to shine or burn. But the infinite tsukuyomi doesn’t force one sun on everybody. It gives everyone their own.

The “sun” metaphor actually exposes Naruto’s selfishness. You said: The SUN is selfish, it rises and sets when it wants to. Exactly. Naruto’s worldview is literally centered around him. If you’re not Naruto, if you’re a civilian, an orphan who never gets lucky, a no-name shinobi crushed by the system “enduring” does nothing but keep you trapped. Obito’s solution gives everyone the freedom Naruto only got because the story favored him.

Reducing Obito to Rin IS a problem and Kishimoto allowed it. Rin wasn’t Obito’s whole character. She was the narrative device that ended up hindering his character on a psychological level. Instead of allowing Obito’s worldview to develop through his trauma, ideology, and disillusionment with the shinobi system, the story kept reducing everything back to Rin. Psychologically, this flattened him: his grief, his loss of hope, and his rejection of the real world all got funneled into a single emotional trigger, which made his philosophy look like a personal heartbreak instead of the systemic critique it truly was. But instead of exploring Obito’s anti-establishment philosophy deeply, Kishimoto reduced it to which people keep saying “Obito is sad because Rin died,” but that’s exactly the problem. The narrative focuses on who died, not how she died or what her death represented. Psychologically, this reduces Obito’s entire downfall to losing a girl, instead of showing the real issue: the collapse of his ideals, the brutality of the shinobi system, and the moment he realized that innocence has no place in the world. And this conveniently is what protects Naruto’s path to Hokage. If Obito’s ideology were taken seriously, Naruto wouldn’t have a moral high ground.

Naruto endures because he has narrative armor, friendships, a demon fox, plot relevance, and eventual fame. Obito endures until the world breaks him, as it would break almost anyone in his position. Obito didn’t reject hope. He rejected a world where hope is a privilege given only to a select few. That’s why the Infinite Tsukuyomi, flawed or not, is the only system that offers true equality, not just the illusion of it.

[maricacarica]

Recently I've seen more and more men in tiktok say that if Sasuke was a girl, SNS would be canon. And people applauding and agreeing with that.

And I think it's so obvious they don't think about it for more than few seconds. Naruto would look even more pathetic to the audience. Because now he's doing all of that for a girl. Which would make people call him a simp.

I really fail to see how "Sasuke I'll break every bone you have and drag you back to village" translates to obvious romance.

Sasuke being a girl would only make Naruto's creepy obsession with him actually seem creepy to audience. It would be what it is, objectification. Naruto only cared that Sasuke is beside him because that made his perfect dream come true. His rival is next to him, they are now bff's and Sasuke is working for genocidal village.

If Sasuke was a girl, SNS would get as much hate as SS. With both so many men and women believing men can't be victims of anything. We come to a point where we need to gender bend male character to female so people could see how fucked up his life and relationships were.

Also I don't understand how those men are so easily convinced that SNS would be canon, but they cannot be convinced Uchiha massacre wasn't justified.

[rika-furude-supremacy]

:(

[obitoslover]

Kishimoto basically wrote Obito saying "if the system is flawed, then I'll destroy it" and proceeded to never touch on this topic again, only focusing on the first part of his speech

It's interesting to think he said that this early, was it meant as foreshadowing to his villain arc?

It's also worthy saying it's never stated in Kakashi Gaiden he desired to be Hokage at all, only in chapter 607, which can be interpreted as Kishimoto not planning it to Obito's character

Of course both concepts work together, as a kid wanting to be Hokage (apparently to get attention, just like Naruto) and eventually learns the system's flaws, but I doubt that was the original intention

Makes me think how Kishimoto made both Naruto (at the end of Land of Waves Arc, chapter 33) challenging the shinobi system after seeing how harsh shinobi life is and chapters later (Kakashi Gaiden ranges from ch. 239 to ch. 244) makes Obito, who parallels the protagonist, also criticizing the shinobi system

But then Kishimoto ends up making criticizing the system as a bad thing, yikes

[phoenixremix69]

I think Obito would've been 100% more compelling and justified in killing the shinobi way of life if he switched his reasoning from Rin to Kakashi

Because Kakashi really is a distillation of everything wrong about the shinobi system. trained from birth as a ninja, expected to kill at the age of 5, his father, a legendary shinobi, suicide baited by the village he served his whole life for actually adhering to their village's supposed mantra.

Then Minato and Hiruzen, the two men he trusted most in his life(because really, who does he have left?) shove him into black ops where he can kill his emotions and fade from his identity as a human and turn into a tool for use. Used by his teacher, used by his village, even used as a tool for suicide by his last remaining friend. for decades on end.

And imagine Obito could see all of it through his eye. Kakashi's reality from his perspective. He could see the absolute travesty that is Kakashi's life. and he could see it happen again and again. Itachi. Sasuke. Naruto. Gaara. Yeah. I would want this way of life to burn too.

[akatsukiarts]

cha cha real smooth

[akatsukiarts]

some SUPER ROMANTIC cards to send to your significant other 💋💋💖😍🥰 merry valentines day 💓💓💘

[raveneira]

I read the manga and Sarada's character is getting more and more astonishing, oh my god I don't understand anymore her life is only about Boruto, Boruto and Boruto like there is no character development at all she even only thinks about Boruto as if she forgot about Sumire who is beside her that girl I don't understand her character any more. I followed the manga and it became increasingly uncontrollable, very ridiculous, I also sent it with Kawaki and by God, I was very annoyed with the passengers on the sibling ship, they treated everything as if it was just for them, banned all ships and spoke ill of my ship like ksa & bsu, I don't understand So what does the official art mean which always puts them next to each other? What does the camellia flower and the like mean or what does Sumire's feelings mean which has been emphasized many times for Boruto not to mention yesterday's cover? With Boruto, is it not enough to board this ship? what do you think? I'm very annoyed with all the nonsense of people who don't actually know how to read manga or don't, plus the fake news they give so that everyone will believe it, gosh, I just want to see the progress of Sarada and Kawaki, I'm fed up with that girl who seems like she was just made to revolve around boruto characters looks annoying like that

No fr, ppl keep acting like oh your just mad about the ship when its so much more than that, this has gone BEYOND the ship atp, Sarada has completely lost all individuality, all autonomy, everything about her, has all been thrown away in favor of making her some OOC Boruto obsessed MESS.

Like look at this shit

Sarada learns about her fathers past OFF SCREEN and the only reason shes talking about it is to defend Boruto, not her father, but just to say shes defending Boruto the way Naruto defended Sasuke, I must emphasize that her father is considered a traitor too but thats not who shes riding or dying for.

Sarada is so careless and hyperfixated on clearing Borutos name that she stupidly almost blows their cover, forgetting that Ada is not their FRIEND or their ALLY but the literal got danm enemy, yet her mind is so fixated on a danm boy shes not even registering that in her head when shes talking to Ada, the one who actually remembers their mission is Sumire and SHES the one who stops Ada's suspicions, Sarada literally just sat there lookin stupid not saying anything because apparently if it isnt about Boruto she dont know how to open her mouth.

Even though Code is technically talking about Kawaki here, its still disgusting that Sarada's first encounter with Code is literally just for him to ask her where Boruto is, and then try to use her as bait to lure him out thats only there for Boruto to swoop in and have a 'chad' moment and essentially tell Code this is why he gets no bitches.

This is all only just Sarada's first appearance in the timeskip and its literally all about Boruto, not a single bit of her panel time wasnt about Boruto.

But theres 14 chapters so lets see how the other 13 goes.

Her first time seeing Boruto in 3 years and he returns without Sasuke, what does she do? Boruto tells her to leave and go help the civilians, Sarada asks if hes sure, he says yea and like an obedient dog she does as shes told never once asking where her father is, only if hes sure he wants to deal with Code alone.

She lets her guard down in the middle of an invasion and gets somebody nommed trying to protect her, this isnt inherently a big deal on its own but this will not be the first or the last time this happens.

She makes this stupid remark, once again, acting like Ada is their friend and ally when shes actually the got danm enemy, even if Ada did confirm it it wouldnt matter anyway because they'd just not believe her just like they dont believe Sarada about his innocence, and even if they did believe it Sarada's attitude here is stupid af because she talks as if their stupid for suspecting Boruto just cuz shes the only one with blind faith in him. Its not exactly a good look that Boruto literally says hes trying to make a deal with Code, their enemy, so for her to act like their suspicions are unfounded just cuz she blindly trusts him is stupid.

Not only that but her comback at Kawaki is also unwarranted because she knew danm well what he meant but is purposefully acting oblivious because she, like everyone else before omnipotence, DOESNT wanna face the reality that Boruto is a got danm threat, hes not JUST Boruto anymore, he is LITERALLY Boruto Otsutsuki, an Otsutsuki 100%, his and Momos dna have merged to the point that their minds were starting to become one, his karma has worsened to the point where now Boruto cannot even use it without losing control.

Sure Sarada doesnt know that part yet, but what she DOES know is that hes 100% Otsutsuki, that Momoshiki has taken over his body numerous times, that he stabbed her fathers eye, tried to kill Naruto and Kawaki more than once, that Boruto himself WILLINGLY sacrificed himself, begging Kawaki to kill him so that he wouldnt lose control again and kill the ppl he loves, she saw Momo take over again with her own eyes to save Kawaki, yet she has the audacity to compare Kawaki being Otsutsuki to Boruto being Otsutsuki when hes not the one at risk of being taken over and killin everybody.

She makes this equally goofy remark that she wont let him have his way in Konoha, which is hilarious because for 3 years straight that exactly what he's done, hes completely had his way in Konoha while shes been totally ignored and made ZERO progress, so shes talkin a big game but actions speak louder than words, shes all bark and no bite.

She conveniently doesnt acknowledge what Kawaki says here either because she doesnt care, she doesnt wanna acknowledge that Kawaki is right about the threat Boruto is, she doesnt wanna acknowledge that Kawaki isnt just some cold hearted evil guy who just wanna kill all Otsutsuki, and Boruto, for the lolz, but is actually going above and beyond trying to protect everyone in the way he genuinely feels in right.

Sarada is in an extreme case of denial to the point she doesnt even acknowledge reality, notice how at no point not even in part one does she acknowledge the threat that Boruto is or the things he has done while he was possessed, she, like Boruto, kept and in her case still IS pretending that everything is fine when its NOT.

This is by far where Sarada is at her worst, the one and only time she speaks about her dad is simply recalling how he managed to believe her despite omnipotence, the ONE time she thinks about her dad and its about her being able to convince him to save Boruto, NOT the fact that Boruto came back without him and wondering how he is, no, just how her dad believed her about Boruto. Oh but it gets so much worse.

Boruto isnt being specific here, ppl can try to twist it all they want but all Boruto says here is that Sasuke risked his life to save his, I must emphasize this is the SECOND time now Boruto has returned without her dad, and now hes saying how he risked his life to save his, WTF DO YOU THINK THATS IMPLYING HERE? anybodys first thought would be that Sasuke DIED because if he didnt why didnt he come back with Boruto? Boruto is being vague af, he says that Sasuke believed in him, that he risked his life to save his, and Sasuke is nowhere to be found as hes saying this, there is literally NO other way to read this than Boruto implying that Sasuke is dead.

And what does Sarada do?

She knows how Sumire feels about Boruto btw.

This...is absolutely disgusting, if Boruto had left on his own this whole time then this scene wouldnt be bad at all, she was worried about her friend and is happy to see him alive and well, but thats not what happened.

Sarada begs her father in literal tears to go save Boruto, she awakens her MS from that desperate request which is what convinces Sasuke to leave behind EVERYTHING, his wife, his home, his daughter, all to protect a kid he doesnt even remember and believes killed his best friend solely because his daughter asked him to, and for 3 years Sasuke and Boruto have been missing with their status unknown until Boruto comes back, but he comes back ALONE which wouldnt happen unless something bad happened to Sasuke.

With this context, having Boruto return twice without Sasuke, and then implying he was dead, you would think his daughter would ask what happened to him? is he ok? but she not only doesnt ask, but she CUTS BORUTO OFF to hug him and ask what took him so long...

Oh but it somehow gets even WORSE, because THIS is what she thinks after the fact.

Dis-gust-ing, like legitimately disgusting, shes sitting there fixating on being embarrassed about the hug and then has the audacity to say to herself that theres so many things she wants to ask but doesnt know how to start.

Maybe you wouldnt have had to worry about that IF YOU HAD JUST FKING LISTENED TO HIM WHEN HE WAS TRYING TO TELL YOU.

Also idc how embarrassed she is about the hug, it is absolutely ABYSMAL writing that she doesnt think to ask about her dad even once, she literally DOES NOT CARE. The fact that she was so awkward that Sumire had to break the ice because once again Sarada apparently forgot how to talk but had no problem running into Borutos arms calling him stupid and askin what took him so long, but now that its time to ask about her dad? suddenly shes mute.

Do you know how crazy it is that she had more of an reaction to Boruto teasing her about the hug than she did hearing her dad had been turned into a tree? idc if he is alive, having zero reaction to your father, who YOU sent away which is what allowed this to happen, to have zero reaction to him being trapped in a tree because of YOUR request is absolutely disgusting.

Whats worse is Sasuke's final words before sacrificing himself were for Boruto to look after her, his final thoughts were literally of his daughter and wanting her to be safe, but Sarada? 0 thoughts or care about him

Do you know how crazy it is that BORUTO had to be the one to bring up her father again because she didnt? it took Boruto bringing it up a second time for her to finally ask about him, if Boruto didnt bring it up again, Sarada would've continued going back and forth about the stupid hug.

Boruto pretty much confirms hes the one whos gonna settle things with her dad, the fact that he says this with zero consideration of her speaks volumes all on its own, like what do you mean you'll save Sasuke? shouldnt Sarada be included in that? I mean it IS her dad right? but nah of course she isnt gonna be involved in that plot, because its not about Sasuke, Sarada's father, its about Sasuke, Boruto's master.

The plot isnt about daughter rescuing father, nor is it about father protecting daughter, its about Boruto atoning for his guilt of getting his master who he idolized in this situation, and making it up to Sarada who sent Sasuke his way in the first place, it is about Boruto honoring Sasuke's final wishes.

I want you to really think about that, a plotline about rescuing Sasuke is more about Boruto than it is Sarada and shes being left out of the plot altogether.

Well not totally

She's his tree clones target to devour, which is once again more about Boruto than it is her cuz its used to have her be a damsel in distress for Boruto to pull a cool last second heroic save.

Now this moment isnt inherently bad on its own...if not for everything that happened leading up to it.

Sumire warns that Sarada is the target, Sarada gets distracted and zapped anyway

Sumire is worried about her and trying to get her to move, but Sarada is paralyzed and unable to

One of the jonin that tried to protect her is burned to death in flames

Konohamaru tries to protect her but is knocked back

Sumire continues trying to get Sarada to move and is zapped unconscious

All of this happens before Boruto gets there, I must emphasize that Sarada was paralyzed and unable to move that whole time which is why 3 ppl got bodied trying to protect her, yet as soon as Boruto got there all of a sudden she was able to move and help fight.

She couldnt help ANYBODY ELSE who were trying to protect her, no she was crippled, couldnt move, couldnt help anyone who was trying to help her, but as SOON as Boruto arrives all of a sudden shes on her feet and able to assist him.

Dont you think its awful odd that she finally got the 'strength' to fight again only when it was to help Boruto get the win? oh and lets not forget the total lack of gratitude she had for anyone that tried to help her but Boruto, one of which literally DIED for her and yet she feels zero guilt, remorse, or gratitude for their efforts.

Imagine saying this to the ppl who just got their ass whooped to protect you, Sumire was so worried about Sarada that she didnt even pay attention to the enemy approaching her, and Konohamaru got knocked back when trying to protect her and barely escaped with his life if he hadnt reacted in time, yet the ONLY ONE who matters in her rescue is Boruto, he's the only one she gives any credit for her life being spared, idc if the rest failed, they still TRIED to help her and one literally DIED, yet she gives zero fks about any of them.

So when ppl try to pretend that this is just about ships, that oh your just mad because its not your ship, your just mad bsa is winning and your not, its complete bullshit and they know it too, they just pretend they dont cuz it works in their favor and thats all that matters to them.

This is about way more than ship preference, this is about blatant character assassination and bad writing that is objectively abysmal no matter how you look at it.

Even when going to the battlefield before it was even known Boruto is there, who does Sarada think about? Himawari, JUST Himawari despite knowing team 10 is there too, which includes Chocho, her bestie, but apparently she doesnt matter to her anymore because of a boy, so the only conclusion I can make for her worry for Himawari is the fact that shes Boruto's sister, because she danm sure didnt care about anyone else there in the same danger she was.

If you wanna know how how bad Sarada's writing is compare her writing to the other girls so far, Sumire is still working with Amado, asking him about Kawaki, trying to get intel outta him, shes also the one whos still conscious of their mission of eventually killing Ada and plays along to not blow their cover.

Chocho, with the rest of team 10, is helping to train Himawari and have seemed to been looking after her over the 3 years since her parents disappearance, and in her fight with Jura Chocho refused to leave her and had to be convinced, the two then promise to go get pancakes together which Himawari says is her fave

Himawari is shown believing in Boruto (Kawaki) despite everyone elses doubts, believing her father is still alive, working hard to get stronger so she could help her brother and her new friends [team 10] and she awakened Kuramas power due to her wanting to protect and save Inojin who almost died protecting her.

Notice how all of them have thoughts, feelings, goals, things going on outside of just Boruto?

The final nail in the coffin is her dressing like this mf, even with Mitsuki being as obsessed with Boruto as he is never sunk this low as to dress like him, even with him not believing his 'sun' is Kawaki, you dont see him dressing up as Kawaki either, this is literally just a Sarada exclusive thing which is just so bad for her character its pathetic.

Fk Ikemoto for what he did to her, there is no excuse or justification for this.

So what does the official art mean which always puts them next to each other? What does the camellia flower and the like mean or what does Sumire's feelings mean which has been emphasized many times for Boruto not to mention yesterday's cover? With Boruto, is it not enough to board this ship? what do you think?

Unfortunately I cant answer this, cuz its become clear since this interview that the anime team and Ikemoto were not on the same page AT ALL and essentially were tellings two different stories so even I dont know whats real, still canon, and whats not anymore. We just gotta wait and see.

For now its safe to say it still means what we thought until confirmed otherwise, so for not just stick to that until further notice.

[obitoanon-archive]

can u make an analysis on obito and how it didn't make sense for him to fall for naruto's words? I know the set up was build from pain's defeat and obito took an interest in naruto however that doesn't mean he should have given up and it was ooc for him. Firstly because obito considered only rin as his hope or whatever he calls it (not technically as he saw her as an impostor after she died and both kakashi and minato as impostors cause of it so he only considered the rin that was alive as his source of hope) and the reason why he didn't say kakashi or minato was because they supported the system and he saw rin as a victim. He did see kakashi as a victim which is why he offered him to join him and his main reason was also because of the shinobi system which is why naruto saying why obito dreaming of becoming hokage after becoming juubi didn't make sense. And tbh when naruto said what would rin think. That shouldn't have made obito a sceptic as what rin thinks wouldn't matter to obito either way. Because obito asked sasuke himself during a chapter that would he kill konoha depsite knowing that the person he loves (itachi) sacrificed himself for it? And sasuke also thought the same as him. Also obito originally never said in kakashi gaiden that he wanted to be hokage that was retconned from kishimoto so naruto could talk-no-jutsu him. And if obito really wanted to make naruto despair he could have just killed everyone instead of just neji but he didn't. So why would naruto despair in the first place? Also naruto is pretty selfish. Actually scratch that every one of them is selfish. Because if they actually cared about each other then they would want each of them to have their own dreams accomplished. Because not every person has the privilege to experience success. Naruto isn't even an example of hardwork either way, he actually was gifted the genetic lottery. And he was actually lucky that everyone was on the same page as him. Because his main motive of becoming hokage was always to be acknowledged it wasn't or was never to grant peace or atleast as he claims so.

Well I don't have manga panels to write anything too indepth, my laptop doesn't have space for all of the Naruto manga, but I am trying to clear up space because I've been meaning to reread the manga so, soon.

I completely agree that Obito did a 180 in the shippuden end. It made no sense. Obito spent 20+ years devising his own narrative, bringing the entire Ninja world to heel, obliterating anyone in his path, and Naruto comes along as a "hero protagonist" and did his TELL ME YOUR LIFE STORY NO JUTSU and fucking killed Obito's entire buildup. Obito should have died as the Villain. He never should have regretted his past. He never should have fallen prey to Naruto's braindead bullshit and "realized the error of his ways". 

Or he should have lived.

We stan villains on this blog. 

Naruto is a terrible protagonist, main character, "hero", whatever he is supposed to be, not only cause of how he treated Sasuke, but his rise to Hokage made no difference at all to anything. The entire plot in Boruto now is garbage. RIP fake Sasuke.

Naruto has been the number 1 in my bingo book ever since he denied Pein his victory and Nagato died. I hated that arc. I hated how he shows up and convinces ONE OF THE BEST VILLAINS IN THE ANIME to repent and raise the dead because Konoha can't be harmed, Konoha can't be held to any standards, Konoha can't wallow in the blood of their own doing.

I'm not sure what you mean by he saw Rin as an imposter though? 

I just hate Obito bowing to Konoha, I will never be pro Konoha (canon wise, mod =/= rp). I don't enjoy the KG hc of him being Hokage unless there was no trauma to begin with. Obito becoming Hokage doesn't absolve any of his trauma. Becoming Hokage doesn't magically HEAL a character, as the anime loves to try to justify. It's like everyone who went through hell wants to become Hokage and wants to be whole again by being adored as Hokage. 

I agree Naruto didn't amount to anything as Hokage, he wanted the adoration and that's it.  I agree almost all the characters are selfish. But they didn't begin that way.

I am going to read the manga. I'll come back to this ask after I do.

[persephone-falling-into-darkness]

Hashirama is frankly a far more interesting and complex character than Naruto. Honestly to be fair Naruto does have depth, but nearly enough and along with unearned praise and favoritism he receives from the narrative.

The Unexplored Depths of Hashirama: A Comparison of Complexity and Narrative Favoritism in Naruto

I do absolutely agree with you on this, as I find Naruto repetitive and somewhat banal as a protagonist - Hashirama on the other hand is potentially far more nuanced and interesting to explore as far as "heroic" characters go.

While Naruto, for all his emotional evolution and personal growth, ultimately fulfils the archetype of the "see no evil, do no evil" hero—an idealised figure who seeks to transcend the darkness within through inner struggles and relationships, rather than confronting the external systems of oppression that shape the world around him—Hashirama emerges as a far more enigmatic and morally multifaceted character. His narrative, though relatively sparse in explicit detail compared to his contemporaries, unfolds into this convoluted labyrinth of contradictions and unresolved tensions.

Far from embodying the archetype of the noble, pure-hearted hero, unlike what Naruto is supposed to represent for the masses, Hashirama is the kind of fiction leader whose sense of heroism is infused with a shadowy undercurrent of vicious pragmatism, ruthlessness, and an unsettling willingness to make ethically compromised choices in the name of what he perceives is Peace.

Naruto’s idealism and forgiving nature are defined by his refusal to acknowledge or confront the deeper, more systemic issues that underlie his world. Hashirama’s approach is politically brutal—built on sacrifices, bloodshed, and dominance—Naruto’s approach, though well-intentioned, remains naive and blind to the realities of the system he seeks to protect. Hashirama’s darkness, well hidden beneath his charismatic exterior, presents a far more morally complicated figure than Naruto, whose simplistic approach to peace and unity often glosses over the deeper societal issues

Hashirama’s traits of benevolence, warmth, coupled with a disarmingly jovial nature, serve as a carefully constructed façade for masking his proclivity for very shrewd, even vicious decisions that he is willing to make for the sake of his vision. His unwavering desire to unify the warring clans and establish the Hidden Leaf Village, an endeavour ostensibly driven by idealistic notions of peace, belies the darker currents of manipulation, coercion, and violence beneath. A prime example of this duality is seen in his willingness to sacrifice the lives and futures of those he holds dear for the preservation of his dream. Hashirama’s philosophy, particularly in his brutal dealings with Madara, exposes the depths of his moral ambiguity. In the manga, Hashirama’s ultimate confrontation with Madara—once his closest nakama—lays bare his willingness to engage in extreme violence for, again, what he perceives to be the greater good.

Though he seemingly seeks peace and reconciliation through his words, his vision of unity demands the complete subjugation of those who stand in the way of Konoha’s dominance.

A prime example of this is seen when he initially sought to reconcile with the Uchiha clan and bring them into the fold of the village. However, his actions reflect a far bleaker reality, because Hashirama isn't just the sentimental fool he's often present as: he remains unyielding in his belief that the Uchiha must be controlled, monitored, and, ultimately, pacified for the greater good of the village’s stability ; after all, Tobirama may have been the grand schemer, the architect of the framework, but Hashirama allowed him this agency and very likely sanctioned it, turning an intentional blind eye to the festering oppression the Uchiha began to face.

Why? Because it benefitted the Leaf.

Don't believe me? Look at how he spoke of Itachi to Sasuke!

The paradox here makes me choke on my own saliva: Hashirama created the village with the scope of protecting children, right? It's something he does mention a couple of times throughout the manga, he places quite some emphasis on how his village allowed youths to collectively reach an age such that they'd be able to access the frivolous joys of life, such as sipping alcohol. Yet Itachi, a child himself, was used as an instrument to butcher his entire clan, thus eradicating the Uchiha from existence. A child killing children because four decrepit proselytising farts, all representing Hashirama's direct legacy mind you, groomed him into it.

And yet, Hashirama is very unabashedly lauding these actions (genocide committed by a 13 year old boy) as if they had succeeded in fulfilling the original purpose. Protecting children.

Children killing children to protect children.

Did I write that correctly? Do my eyes deceive me?

Good lord, the irony of this fucker...

His willingness to pressure the Uchihas into subjugation, while masking it with a veneer of diplomacy, speaks to a ruthlessness that is rarely fully examined. Hashirama would blindly sacrifice the future of an entire clan for the stability of his village, and this is exactly what happens down the line thanks to him enabling his cunningly draconian little brother. This is not the mark of a benevolent leader, but of a despot willing to play with fire for the sake of consolidating control over a vision.

He is thus a man constantly on the edge between choosing either his familial bonds or the societal vision he has built — but his decision will ultimately fall upon the latter. And the sharpest expression of Hashirama's moral complexity lies precisely in his zeal to prioritise the stability of his village, his dream, his vision, his creation, even at the cost of personal relationships and ethical integrity.

In contrast to Naruto, whose heroism is marked by a certain innocence and naivety (I'll give him that), Hashirama's brand of heroism is inseparable from his slash-and-burn drive to impose his version of peace, unity and prosperity by any means necessary. Naruto, despite his inner growth and personal sacrifices, embodies a kind of lukewarm moral purity: he attempts to pursue peace by reconciling the inner and outer worlds through the recurring and overused theme of forgiveness. However, don't get me wrong, Naruto ultimately ends up becoming another little cog in the iron-fisted dystopian war machine that is the Leaf, because his idealisms ultimately limit his capacity to confront the structural forces that perpetuate suffering of his person and of those around him. And that does make him boring.

Hashirama in contrast does not shy away from wielding violence and oppression to achieve his vision. His vision of peace is built not on reconciliation or understanding, nothing of the sort, but on the rigid consolidation of power—power that is maintained through outrageous force, sacrifice, and the elimination of dissent. Even when it comes to Madara, Hashirama isn't truly inclined to listen when he expresses his deepest qualms; he offers apathetic promises in an attempt to quash his anger and subdue him, keep him loyal. From the moment he realises Madara will not acquiesce, his perspective morphs—Madara with his reactionary stance threatens the new found order. He is no longer complicit in the propagation of the prevailing social and political framework, so the only viable option for Hashirama is to slaughter him.

This makes Hashirama more of a manipulative tactition behind the unrelenting tension between his idealistic vision and the dark realities of the power necessary to achieve it. So where Naruto is the cog that ends up fitting neatly into place, Hashirama is the creator of the machine.

Hashirama’s strength, and perhaps his most poignant moral failing, lies in his ability to blend charisma with cunning, cynical violence, embodying the paradox of a benevolent ruler willing to commit atrocious acts for the sake of his dream. This makes him a potentially very fascinating character.

Naruto completely lacks this nuance: despite his considerable power and victories, he ultimately embodies a troubling truth about the shinobi world: the success of an individual is not necessarily a reflection of the merit of their ideals, but of the system that allows them to succeed. His rise, though unique in the sense that it is his face we see, mirrors countless others whose dreams were crushed by an unforgiving world. His "triumph" is not an exception—it is, in essence, the clearest illustration of a world where strength and charisma eclipse the true need for meaningful, lasting change. The irony of Naruto’s story lies not in his near inconceivable victory, but in the uncomfortable realisation that the very system that perpetuates violence and oppression rewards those with the force to project their ideals, rather than those capable of transforming the structures that enable such conflict. His success, granted to him rather than earned through the soundness of his beliefs, critiques the shinobi world’s obsession with individual triumph over the greater collective struggle. We've seen this cliché theme recurring over and over again in all of modern mainstream media, think of the Marvel universe and its plethora of "heroes." Just so you know, the US military complex has systemically invested millions in the creation of a specific genre of film that glorifies the conventional hero and utterly obliterates voices of dissent.

What, then, was truly unique about Naruto, if anything at all? The world he sought to change had seen countless shinobi—each with dreams and hopes of (distorted) peace—rise and fall before him. They fought, they won, yet their visions failed. Why? What made Naruto’s journey any different from theirs? Is it his idealistic mantras he shoves into the faces of those who opposed him? I feel they remain hollow at their core. His words, though stirring in the moment, lacked substance; his ideals are all empty rhetoric devoid of tangible evidence. And despite this, in a world riddled with disillusionment, Naruto was granted faith, trust, and the opportunity to fulfill his dream. But this faith, born of hope rather than reason, is ultimately unfounded. He presented nothing concrete, no historical precedent, no proof that his vision would lead to anything beyond the same endless cycles of conflict that had plagued his predecessors.

Naruto’s strength, undeniable as it is, serves only to perpetuate the very violence he seeks to end. His victories are not a radical break from the past but a continuation of the same bloody, brutal history of the shinobi world. He fights and wins, loses some, but ultimately gets stronger and wins again, like in practically all battle shonen, so what, in the grand scheme, has truly changed? His heroism—grounded in nothing more than the power to overcome his adversaries—fails to address the deep, systemic corruption that has long plagued the world! The notion that peace is achieved through the forceful defeat of enemies, rather than through the painstaking work of dismantling the structures that perpetuate violence, lies at the heart of Naruto’s conceptual deficiency. His inability to challenge the power structures themselves, his simple belief that peace comes through strength, reflects a profound misunderstanding of the nature of conflict and resolution, making him complicit in fascism at the end of the day.

Naruto, in essence, is just one more in a long line of shinobi, all possessing equivalent dreams, hopes, and aspirations. His story, no more extraordinary than theirs, is one of hollow triumph granted by a system that rewards forceful will over genuine reform. It is not that Naruto’s ideals were any more profound than those of his predecessors, but that his ideals were permitted to succeed, while others—far more deserving—were left to perish or fade into obscurity. Naruto is not exceptional; he is merely the one who was allowed to rise, his dreams fulfilled by the world that created the right circumstances for him to succeed. Deus Ex. And in this, we find a subtle yet damning critique of the world that rewarded his simplistic vision rather than the complexity required to bring real change.

So in this sense, Hashirama’s variety of "heroism" is far more compelling than Naruto’s because it forces us, the readers, to confront the uncomfortable truth that humans will often very much willingly enforce peace at the expense of their own humanity— they'd even kill their own child for an ideal they've made theirs. The line between heroism and tyranny can be awfully thin.

[maricacarica]

But I am still so siriusly pissed about how Sasuke and Obito ended up. They barely talked in war arc. It was so easy to redeem Obito with Sasuke. Instead he got converted because of some orange idiot who he didn't even know. Like two characters I actually like and Kishimoto screwed both of them for Naruto's sake. Wouldn't it be better if Obito completely rejected Naruto, Shinobi now don't know what to do. And then what gets Obito to betray Madara is that he feels guilty and doesn't want to fight Sasuke.

Like EVERYTHING WAS ALREADY THERE. Sasuke and Obito spent time together. Kishinoto could've literally just draw how Obito feels bad for using Sasuke and starts to get attached to him as they spend time together. And Sasuke starts seeing him as mentor figure. Then when they find out Obito Works with Madara for Infinite Tsyukumi( I do NOT know how to write that word) Sasuke feels betrayed. BAM angst. And then what gets Obito to betray Madara is that he feels guilty and doesn't want to fight Sasuke. And maybe dies while protecting Sasuke instead of Naruto and Kakashi. So then Sasuke at least knows someone cared about him

But no, who cares about Obito's and Sasuke's relationship when there's orange nationalist.

[leportraitducadavre]

What do you think of Kid Kakashi as a character and your overall opinion?

Are you referring to Kakashi before Obito’s demise? I believe I have replied details how I feel with Adult!Kakashi (and by extension, Kid!Kakashi after Obito’s death), so I’m going to assume you’re referring to him. 

Well, let’s point out the obvious, Kakashi was labeled as a genius when he was extremely young, as we can see on the First Databook:

He graduated from the Academy at five, and was promoted to Chünin at six, I’m not going to start around how messed up the timeline is because from Kakashi Gaiden it seems that everything happened around 10 years before the main plot, which would put Kakashi at 16 years old… when we know it’s impossible. 

We saw that Kakashi was paired with Rin and Obito before he was promoted to Chünin, which either means that Kakashi was significantly younger than them (being promoted canonically at the age of six), or that they were the same age and had been on the same team around five years, which doesn’t add up.

There’s no canon confirmation of what age Kakashi was when promoted to Jönin, but we’re led to believe that Rin, Obito, and Kakashi are of the same age. Thirteen/twelve years old. 

Obito graduated from the Academy at the age of nine, and was promoted to Chünin at eleven… so it’s likely that Kakashi is younger than them, having five while Rin and Obito had 9, while been together for around… 3 years, before Obito and Rin were promoted to Chünin when they were eleven. The point is not of relevance, not to the post, and definitely not for the story, is just a detail of barely any importance that I’m pointing out because I already researched it, Lol.

He’s called a genius by his peers. He’s apparently an “elite ninja” but little do we see of him actually being one. The context in which Kakashi was promoted was one when war was at its peak and apparently had been for a couple of years, since Obito -who is shown to be not good during combat- was promoted to chunin. During Kakashi Gaiden, the first time Kakashi uses the Chidori (an incomplete technique until he receives Obito’s Sharingan), he gets injured and has to be saved by Minato.

His status as genius is, at best, something to question, at worst, nonexistent. He did have the ability to create a jutsu all on his own, but as stated, he only completed it after obtaining the Sharingan. His skills at taijutsu are not particularly good either, since he was outsmarted and overpowered by other jönin.

Up to that point, Kakashi was similar (in the most superficial way, I’m not -by any means- stating that they are similar beyond that), to Neji. Now, let me explain further. Kakashi has seen and experienced what the Will of Fire truly meant; his father, Sakumo, had questioned the belief that Konoha must come first and had chosen to abandon an important mission to save his comrades. Up until there, Sakumo was respected and admired as the Sannin were according to Minato, but the people that loved him for his feats turned their back on him when he chose feelings over logic.

Kakashi chose to explain Sakumo’s suicide as something that happened when you don’t follow the rules, dismissing -unconsciously-, Konoha’s responsibility on the matter. He never, like Neji, questions the system that allowed them to be in the position they are: Kakashi’s father committing suicide and Neji’s father being killed by the main branch, also his condition as a slave. They explained their places in the system without actually upholding Konoha as the responsible. 

Neji never questions the fact that he’s a slave, he explains it with the Destiny of Hatred of his clan, he has bitterly accepted that it was his role to fulfill, and he will do so, despite his hatred. When Naruto beats him on the Chünin exams, it is not that Neji changes completely what his duty was -as some believe he does-, he still fulfills the role of a slave, as he did before, he’s just manipulated into doing it without the hatred that, forged accordingly, could become a revolution.

He’s completely representing the Will of Fire that Tobirama spoke about as Dänzo understood it (ninja being tools just following orders), but as I said before, the Will of Fire of Dänzo was not exactly the Will of Fire of Tobirama. Tobirama did not believe in turning off the shinobi’s emotions, it was about manipulating them to make them want to protect Konoha above everything else, like Rin did after Obito’s death, by sacrificing her life to protect the village.

Obito wasn’t following the Will of Fire either, he was trying desperately to rescue Rin -following what could be cataloged as the First Stage of Tobirama so-called Curse of Hatred-, and his desire was immensely alike Sakumo’s own when he put his comrades before Konoha. Obito awoke his Sharingan by wanting to protect his friends.

Obito’s words change Kakashi’s perspective of his attitude -like Naruto did with Neji-, but it still prevented him from seeing the actual responsible one for the position they were in: Konoha. Therefore, Obito grew on his ideals to bring a new world, a revolution of sorts -while Kakashi became the prime tool of Tobirama’s Will of Fire. Even so, Kakashi did not complete the mission, he had to do it later on with the assistance of Minato.

So it was Minato who saved him from the same fate of Sakumo. Had he not went to the Bridge or killed the entire unit of enemies nin, Kakashi would have been pushed aside as Sakumo was.

[obitoanon-archive]

Reminder that Kushina was not very "nice" to Obito at first. She undermined him in front of his team, belittled him, hit him!!, and later shows clear distaste for Obito when Minato brings him up. "He's hardly more than a bragging little half pint. He's always tripping over himself, he can't throw a shuriken straight, and his jutsu setup is just.. He'll need some work. *derisive scoff*" Minato had the grace to defend Obito, while remindering her that he was somehow her favorite. This was right before Kannabi bridge.

I don't really care that she ended up being nice to a kid who had zero self confidence and was constantly being compared to Kakashi for whatever. Kushina shouldn't have been so harsh with Obi at first. Obito had no parents no relatives except a retconned grandma. He had no adults besides Minato and Kushina and they both let him down.

So good for Obito for being the reason they died. 💯✔ Minato failed Obito and he failed his team at Kannabi bridge. Obito had 💯 the right to be angry. TWO students died under Minato. Not just Rin. Obito died too.

Naruto being more or less the same as Obi in personality, i.e., spunky, adhd, prone to isolation, seeking validation, needing bonds, needing to feel loved, needing to take care of everyone, needing to be in charge, isn't a coincidence.

The clip above is a few seconds, but you can BET Kushina was regularly condescending to Obi, and made him feel stupid, let down, and worthless. It shows in Obito's reactions to her, his defensive reaction to her bringing them food, "I don't take handouts" kids don't get this way out of nowhere. Kids don't dislike adults for no reason. He was used to being demoralized by her and where this hilarious concept of "Kushiha was so nice" to her comes from is a joke to me. She CONSTANTLY compared him to Kakashi. Routinely. It's like a parent comparing their favorite kids in front of them. It's a shitty feeling. Obito wasn't her kid to disparage and emotionally stunt. It's one of my biggest pet peeves when I see users say Obito become what he is from nowhere.

Words have emotional impact for kids. Actions shape psychological behaviors even without any obvious indication.

Think about the pipeline here:

Kushina -> Minato -> Madara. This was all Obito had. Those were the three guiding figures in his existence and all 3 were major red flags.

IT GIVES ME SO MUCH AGGRAVATION when I see "fans" completely ignoring the faults of EVERYONE in Obito's life besides his own. ESP on Reddit they love to call Obito a shithead and a guy who "become a violent unhinged massive loser" and yet they never use a braincell to connect the pieces of how.

"Kakashi did no wrong". Rant coming. I was going to stay quiet about it but it's coming.

If anyone responds to this with "tough love" I will block. If anyone responds to this with it was no big deal I will snap. And if anyone responds to this with "that doesn't excuse his future actions" yeah no shit meathead. I'm clearly speaking to Obito as a kid, not excusing his future. Learn to read.

[obitobi-simp]

minato was always late when it mattered thr most and CHOSE to orphan his child for no reson

This is a very hot hot take maybe but now that i think about it it might have been good obito orphaned naruto. Based on how they treated team 7 it's very not good for children.

The more i think abt it minato is a horrable perantal figure and person holy

•Deflecting blame to kakashi like it's his fault"this should've been your job kakashi " no it's not

• not giving a fuck abt the kids on his team

•mind you obito is the first to tell kakashi sakumo wasn't trash for saving his teammate. Minato knew for longer and looked at kakashi and chose to do nothing abt it not saying a thing

•put kakashi in anbu cuz he was depressed and suicidal

If they would treat natuto diffret cuz he's their son that's really iffy. Minato doesn't have to treat his team 7 like his children but i think it says a lot abt how diffrently adults treat children this mine vs theirs

God ibito should've punched minato in the face a few times more

[obitoanon-archive]

OH MY GOD?!?!???????!!!! HE TOLD KAKASHI IT WAS HIS FAULT FOR THE KANNABI BRIDGE INCIDENT?? WTF! THEN HE PUT HIM IN ANBU CAUSE HE WAS DEPRESSED AND SUICIDAL! NEVER MIND I LOVE KAKASHI NOW WHAT THE HELL. MINATO WAS A PIECE OF WORK! HE LET KAKASHI GO ON WITH THE BELIEF THAT HIS DAD WAS TRASH HOLY HELL. GMAB THAT IS DISGUSTING.

Kids. They were kids. And Obito's haters resent him for killing them off. LOL.

[rin-nohara-anon]

Next time I read a self righteous post about Obito being the evil bastard he is killing off Minato and Kushina

LOL AND HE PUT KAKASHI IN ANBU AFTER ALL THAT. MINATO WAS FATHER OF THE YEAR 🏆💯💯💯😂😂😂😂

[shisuiuchiha]

Yup Kakashi went through a lot of trauma thanks to Minato. Obito was let down by everyone in his life. Team Minato suffered.

What I like about Kakashi is his arc went the way of a guy who was desperately trying to prove himself as much as Obito, but with more confidence and a famous dad didn't help. I also think Kakashi didn't have adhd but the trauma he suffered later was brutal. He evolved into the lean mean killing machine he is thanks to his experienced but Obito only had Madara and his rage. They were treated very differently by their peers. I don't hate Kakashi he grew and matured from a kid to a man. He tried his best with team 7 and he did a hell of a lot better job than Minato.

[obitobi-simp]

yes he did so much better then minato

The best contrast we see in when sensei invite to chunin exam

Obito was so happy he goes to hug minato but he's just there like a brick wall then getting him off

Naruto hugs kakashi and he takes him and twirls him around befor gently leting him down again

It's the diffrance in body languise

Also minato didn't tell obito he was a sensor type or any of his students anything. But as much as ppl joke he ignored sakura he didn't he told her her chakra controll was good and she should specilize in genjutzu iirc

Also somthing that ticks me off is when minato get's cretit for training kakashi like no he didn't even help kakashi that much he was already a genius. Only argument is chidori was made after the lightning rasengan failed. It was still kakashi on his owen making it

[obitoanon-archive]

Minato would have failed Naruto had he lived. Him showing up to confirm Naruto I am your father was so overhyped.

[regret-with-a-u]

Every adult in Konoha failed team 7, that's a fact. What is making my blood boil is the government blaming the child soilders.

I am not surprised with Minato's apathy. Bro is made to be a machine. A genius spending his free time finding better ways to kill the enemy. He was also very young when he got to be the teacher to team 7. We also don't really know about his own childhood and upbringing. But we do know he is completly loyal to Konoha. And blind to its mistakes.

The biggest problem was Konoha's giving up on "untalented children". Child soilders on its own is a fucked up thing to be exist in its military, but also disregarding them and not even trying to help them become better?? It's not only inhumane but also fucking stupid. You lost the adult generation to war and now losing the young. What is next, sending embriyos to the field?

Minato grew up in that government completely believing in it. So of course he would continue with the cycle of abuse. Nitpicking the good, smart soilder out of the "rottens" to make them better. So he saw no problem with his own actions.

So does Kushina.

But not Kakashi. Kanabi bridge opened his eyes to reality. He himself as a teacher also made mistakes, but he tried to hard to make it right. That's why I really like his character development.

But at the end of the day Naruto as a story glorifies the very same ideals and actions. Minato and even the fucking 3rd Hokage is beloved at the end of story. No changes happening in the system as we can see in the Boruto. (Bruh) Some really evil people are just walking free because helping at the end somehow cleaned their sins, and all that.

Konoha, and other ninja governments, will always glorify child abuse, the very same thing they tried to stop. And it seems like it will continue.

Obito at some point really lost himself at the sauce but my brother was so right to go nuke on Konoha and Minato and Kushina. They failed him and his team. They turned Kakashi into a husk. Entire Rin situation. Bro's eye had also opened the fucked up way of the world. He could have gone different route to fix it tho LMAOOO

[leportraitducadavre]

[madaraservingcunt]

I always wondered why Obito's sassy ass never asked him this

[yuzuextracted]

obito: you said i'd see rin again madara: no, i said rinnegan obito:

[al-hekima-madara-blog]

Hashirama's new chinese mobile game intro is so evil it looks like he's the main villain of the story🙄

at least Madara looks fine.

[the-real-sasuke-uchiha]

He looks like he's the main villain of the story because he is the main villain of the story.

[narutobrainrotstuff]

I love this so much great animation

I agree with you Hashirama was the main antagonist and especially if you look at it from Sasuke’s point of view.

(This is how I read the manga tbh 😂. I read it as Sasuke’s journey and i don’t care about team 7)

Honestly I love interpreting Hashi as an antagonist.

A man who had good intentions and ambitions but slowly corrupted by his own desire for peace just like Madara! A lovely mutual (nardo-headcanons) summed up Hashi nicely when she said “In pursuit of doing what’s great he failed to consider what’s good”. It’s such a great quote I love it very much. Truly Hashi was so captivated by building and sustaining Konoha it became his entire sense of self and he never stopped to consider if it was actually good even after Madara pointed out valid criticism as he lay dying by Hashirama’s blade through his heart. It’s amazing how much this guy fucked up because he was short-sighted and stubborn and it contrasts nicely with how much Madara suffered because with the EMS he saw the world as it is. This panel sums up this sentiment so well. Hashi didn’t know what the stone tablet said as Madara did so he was living in the ignorance of his idealism of the will of fire and he was content with passing on his legacy to the next generation. Honestly the fact that he murdered his best friend for a village should’ve been a wake up call to him but again his main fault is being self-righteous.

Madara and Hashirama are similar in that it’s their dream that united them and their dream that corrupted them with Hashirama choosing fascism to uphold his vision of peace and Madara countering by using Obito to uphold his vision of peace. It really strengthens that they’re two sides of the same coin and it just depends on your perspective (fascism or anti fascism). Both of them use the same method (violence) to achieve their version of peace.

You know Naruto as a series is bizzare in that you can actually weed out the political viewpoint of the reader depending on whom they like and defend and that’s why I don’t trust people who criticize Sasuke for leaving Konoha or wanting to destroy it. It reflects a nationalistic mindset to me.

I just want to add another interesting parallel between Madara and Hashirama. Both of them were delusional in different ways.

Madara sought comfort in abandoning reality and living in a dream world. He was delusional in that he wasn’t assigning meaning to his interactions anymore.

Hashirama was delusional in his idealism of the military junta he created and the fact that he never stopped to consider that Konoha is an oxymoron in which it kills for peace.