On possible Third Proposal to God
"Very well. I'll let you choose. This decision, this one decision, can be yours. What do you want? Do you want me to put everything back the way it was?"
So this is really a question of consent - any Binary Choice made in the bookshop, however well intentioned, would highly impact those not present without their input. Whether that is:
Stop existing in their old lives (new universe) -OR-
Live in a world where Free Will is under question (old universe)
Both run into the same problem: Just as the fandom is divided, in-universe characters would also be divided on what they want. To address this issue, a third option would be needed.
Firstly, how about two (or more) universes running simultaneously, including the
Big Bang Universe
Original Universe (everyone lives!) with some modifications (more details below)
And here's the crucial part:
Every single time you reincarnate the character Death gives you a moment of Clarity about
Your past lives
Basic details on how each universe works
***And you get to *choose* your next universe to be reincarnated into every single time!***
Freedom of choice about your own free will!
Like let's say you die in the original universe -- you could choose to be reincarnated in the big bang universe (or vice versa)!
More details below, including:
Moral reasoning & justification for this instead of just one universe
Modifications for the original universe
More details how Reincarnation Choice works
Multiple different "levels of free will" (the reincarnation & soulmate problems)
Why Death not God handling the between-life choice?
Pitching/selling this idea to God
How the choice of next universe might be impacted by past life experience, world events, and attributes of each universe
How a "remember past lives" universe would work
I'm working on a whole essay about this possible "Third Option Proposal/Pitch" to God. When I finish it I'll post the link here. "Reincarnation Choice" will be one of the AO3 tags.
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Why Death not God handling the between-life choice?
This between-life choice is administered by Death (not God) cause he's more trustworthy to be impartial.
On that note, how do we know we can trust God to keep her promise long-term? To make a Godless universe and keep Her grubby hands off it?
Multiple universes could help keep her engaged and interested (and not tempted to mess about inappropriately). Her offer to "put everything back" might have been in bad faith but if you can interest Her. Give Her something to sink her teeth into elsewhere -- then that might just help keep Her paws off the Big Bang Universe 🤔
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The moral reasoning and justification for this proposal instead of just one universe (Big Bang or original-with-modifications)?
Why not have only the new Big Bang Universe (canon)? Or only the original universe (with some modifications)? What is the argument for this being necessary?
You could argue that when Crowley & Aziraphale give their decision to God, the souls of the old universe presently don't exist and never did. So it isn't a "continuing" but a "bringing back" -- it isn't an "ending" but a "choosing not to restore" -- which changes the moral balance.
And is it not a moral violation to choose to take someone (who at this moment does not exist) and bring them back without their consent -- knowing that they will be going through major changes or tumult?
That said, is an unknown better or safer? There is no guarantee that this new universe will be kinder or gentler -- it could just as easily be harsher and crueler -- there is no way to know in advance. Is it better to choose the devil you know or the devil you do not know?
But no matter what, decisions have still been made about a soul's final disposition without their consultation. Whether to exist is arguably one of the most deeply personal and individual decisions -- and making that choice *in any direction* for others without consent is arguably a moral violation.
If even one single being from the old universe would disagree with Crowley's choice -- would say "I want my current life back even if my level of free will is in question". Can we morally make this choice for that person? And too, if someone agrees with Crowley, can we make the opposite choice for that person?
Just as the fandom is divided, in-universe characters would also be divided on whether they want the old universe or the new universe. So making this choice *in any direction* would be making it for someone who disagrees. It's a fascinating cunundrum really.
The souls of the old universe did not consent to:
Living in a world where the existence of Free Will is questionable (Crowley's argument)
No longer existing as they were. Losing their memories/current lives and selves.
For angels and demons, being forcibly changed fundamentally (made human: depowered; mortal) -- especially with their memories intact, which could be quite traumatic
Being brought back changed with 0 memory of who they were before
No matter what option you choose, you are making radical decisions for others without their consent. The only solution to that dilemma is to give others the opportunity to choose.
To quote The Good Place:
"Fork this! If we're going to lose, let's lose on our own terms. Let's come up with a completely new idea that actually makes the universe better. At least then we can hold our heads high."
(And so they break out the chalkboard/legal pad, come up with a better option, and manage to get it passed & into effect. I highly encourage you to watch The Good Place if you haven't already. It's perfect, no notes.)
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More about how Reincarnation Choice works
Of course while you can choose the universe -- you can't control the circumstances in which you are born in a given universe.
Everyone can always choose to reincarnate in the Big Bang universe.
In the majority of universes, inside your current life, you have 0 outside knowledge. (So while inside the big bang universe -- its the exact same as in Crowley's proposal)
But perhaps there could be a universe (you would willingly choose) where you get to remember all your past lives simultaneously? (more on that later)
You can have multiple populated planets in the same universe if the base mechanics will be the same -- this will help reduce the total universe count to be managed
Everyone is equally powered (so either no one has abilities or everyone does)
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On Modifications for the Original Universe:
Bring the old universe back to the present day with everyone alive and everything erased is restored. This means everyone in Heaven will remember what Michael did (poor Michael but also you brought it on yourself)
We know this is possible because Adam does it -- the delivery man Lesley is no longer dead and people wonder where Atlantis went.
Moving forward it will be reincarnation; no Heaven/Hell; Angels/Demons are stripped of miracles & given min 70 years of life with memories intact before their first reincarnation cycle.
In the short term (70 years) Heaven/Hell are merged and the depowered Angels/Demons can just hang out there for the 70 years
Or they can live on Earth -- but if they go to Earth they will have real human needs like hunger, fatigue, and the need for bathrooms.
Now this is a traumatic change to force on angels/demons with no say or consent in the matter. Is this better or worse than 1.) ending an existence without consent or 2.) erasing memory without consent?
Again no matter what option you choose, there will be a moral violation in that you are making radical decisions for others without their consent. The only solution to that dilemma is to give others the opportunity to choose.
So here's the crucial bit, before everyone rejoins the restored old universe they get that between-life moment of clarity where they get to choose whether they want:
70 years with their old memories (depowered/mortal) before their first Reincarnation cycle
Skip right to reincarnating as a human baby
They could choose to be frozen in stasis until the Big Bang Universe is ready to support intelligent life
Either way it is clear to them that they will still exist and reincarnate -- the question is just about their own personal memory and experience in the short term (70 years). That is an upsetting choice to have to make -- but whatever you decide you are still getting to choose.
Some might take the option to just reincarnate right away (rather than have to go through that radical change). The people who make this choice might find this brief tangent upsetting -- maybe even wish they hadn't been asked at all! -- but then as requested they would be reborn asap as babies with no memories.
But some are going to choose to take the 70 years with memories intact. Meaning they choose to undergo this change process knowing what they once were and what they are going to be now.
Of course, for many the preferred option would be to stay an immortal who serves heaven/hell -- but if that option's not available on the buffet line then they are getting to choose this much at least.
Psychologically, being allowed to make a choice -- even between two not-great options -- can also help a person reconcile themselves to a not-great situation and increase their buy-in. Even among any angels and demons who want to keep their memories so that they can spend those 70 years trying to eff up the Earth out of spite -- they still made that conscious choice to do this instead of skipping straight to a memory reset. There was still a level of buy-in to this less bad option and that changes things about how a person generally interacts with their new reality.
(It is also worth noting that angels and demons are famously not actually that effective at impacting Earth even with the use of miracles -- and depowered (& needing food/bathrooms), well, that will significantly impact what they can accomplish in 70 years. These are the beings who forget to put petrol in their cars or plug in their stereos.)
The thing is I don't believe in:
Ending lives prematurely -OR-
Memory tampering (outside of death)
So from my perspective the option to take those 70 years is ethically important:
Even if they cause problems for humans
Even if they squander the opportunity
Even if it is traumatic to be depowered and made mortal
It isn't reasonable to expect any resolution to resolve every single problem in the world -- it is not possible to have Free Will but end all wars, hunger, genocide, global warming, poverty, etc. Utopias are wonderful ideas but there is a reason why they have not and will not ever actually exist. I never expected GO3 to fix everything perfectly because that's not possible. I expected heaven and hell to fall and rebuilding to start -- and that rebuilding is going to be messy because all rebuildings are. Nothing will ever be simple or clean because that cannot exist alongside Free Will.
Mr Incredible:
"No matter how many times you save the world, it always manages to get back in jeopardy again. Sometimes I just want it to stay saved! You know, for a little bit? I feel like the maid; I just cleaned up this mess! Can we keep it clean for...for ten minutes!"
No, because that isn't how free will works!
And keep in mind if my "Reincarnation Choice" scheme described above is now in effect --
That hopefully takes some pressure off of fixing every single little damn thing perfectly in the original universe (or any universe)
Seeing as how that actually isn't even possible -- cause Free Will is gonna Free Will.
Because even if your last life was kinda rough: you can always choose any universe -- including Godless universes' -- for your next go around.
Freedom of Choice for your Free Will!
Jason Mendoza from The Good Place: "You know what they say in Florida: "If you don't like this funeral, juuust wait a minute!""
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If there is a "remember all your past lives" universe, it would:
**Be a completely optional place where people could choose to remember their past lives and selves.***
1.) Only becomes an option after you go through at least one iteration as a human in a world where you don't remember your past lives.
So any angels and demons there will now *also* have memories as a human (to hopefully help them chill the eff out a bit.)
2.) You can only stay up to 100 years before you have to get reincarnated again in a world where you don't remember your past lives.
Just to keep people being chill/normal and avoid too much stasis
3.) I imagine people who like to hang out here would end up coordinating/synching up with loved ones on the timing of reincarnation cycles
This is particularly lovely because you are unlikely to meet past loved ones during reincarnation cycles -- since you might be reincarnated in Peru and they are reincarnated in China in the 1300s (before Columbus) and therefore you will never meet! But you can choose to meet up in between cycles in the "remember everything" universe.
4.) While originally intended as a place where people could choose to 1/heal and process from past lives (if they want!) & 2/reunite with past loved ones -- this also could become a very interesting and messy place.
If everyone remembers the combination of multiple life experiences--including what others did. Multiple different marriages. Murder. Old grudges and emotional ties.
5.) Of course, since this "remember everything" universe is completely optional. A person could choose to never spend any time here at all if they prefer! -- opting instead to always reincarnate in a universe without memory
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Universes with different "levels of free will" (the Reincarnation & soulmate problem)
One issue is arguably the main goal is true free will for humans but what is asked for is godless. And arguably predestining that an Earth will form and one day have humans is not godless. And Reincarnation is in itself not purely godless.
There are gradations then of "lack of Godly involvement":
Intelligent life is not guaranteed (truly godless) or if it does happen if night not be humans that evolve
God nudges intelligent life to happen but it is offerwise godless (no reincarnation)
God nudges intelligent life to happen and there's reincarnation but it's otherwise godless.
Let's say any intelligent being who dies in a world without reincarnation will actually get the choice to move to a different universe. This can be the universe that generates only new souls, which then feeds into all the other universes.
Similarly the idea that you might meet with old loved ones repeatedly; that you are "fated" -- may not be a purely godless concept.
Would there be some divine intervention happening here? Nudging you to at least be reborn in the same country (if not city) so there is a decent probability of finding each other (especially in pre-aviation societies).
Or is this happening because the souls are genuinely finding each other again -- they have a kind of unconscious memory that helps them seek each other out? And would this then help them manage to not have one person be born in Peru and the other in China in the 1300s?
I'm sure people would love to have the choice to reincarnate in close proximity with loved ones thereby increasing the likelihood of meeting. If this is dually chosen by both parties at their Reincarnation Choice then that is arguably Free Will instead of Divine Intervention. Being born nearby is mutually chosen by the people involved.
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If God scoffs that it's too big an Ask well:
(plus how the choice might be impacted by past life experience, world events, and attributes of each universe)
But God wouldn't this be interesting to observe for you the Viewer?
Yes you're no longer allowed to directly impact universes*** (once they've been set in motion) but
Just think won't it be psychologically fascinating, oh Lord, to watch how people's past life experience(s) impact their choice of next universe
And sociology fascinating, oh Lord, to watch how major events in & attributes of a universe might impact people's choice
For example, the aftermath of a war
The presence of penicillin or electricity
Past fantasies of being a pirate or a knight (which of course you won't remember once you are inside your new life)
We have cards/options available to concede
We can always backtrack to first "just the two universes with reincarnation choice
Falling that, just the two universes now without reincarnation choice
Failing that also, we're back to picking just one universe
Never start a negotiation conceding everything
Possible Hail Mary:
"Too big an Ask? Well you said you'd let me make this one decision -- and seeing as your God it must be in your power to create this, amiright?".
Definitely a Hail Mary move -- and the exact phrasing might need some workshopping by the demon Crowley
***Does She still need more convincing? Let's (semi-)concede a card. Perhaps, oh Lord, some universes can be a little more lax then others about Godly influence providing the below points remain sacred:
0 godly influence in the Big Bang World(s)
There must be sufficient godless options for anyone who wants that
***The choice of universe at Reincarnation***
Meaning everyone always has the option to reincarnate next time in a "godless universe".
(Also getting God to agree is technically a Watsonian (in-universe) issue! Doylistically (out-of-universe), if the Writer wants a particular outcome, I am sure they can set things up to make that outcome happen (make it real).)


















