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“How old are Jessie and James?”
alright i’m making a masterpost because i’m so tired. these never get notes. please give this one notes. i’m going to run through every single parroted argument. i’m going to run through every thought anyone engaged in this discourse has ever had. please give me notes. not because i want clout, i’m just so tired. so many of my posts get notes. i would trade them all for this post to get notes.
How old are Team Rocket?
25. They’re 25.
But I thought they were teenagers? Lots of people have told me they’re 15/16.
so i’ve heard! i’m pleased to tell you exactly where that comes from.
1. this post, for some reason:
i have been on tumblr for 10 years now, and i never saw anyone debating their ages before this post started circulating. as you can tell by the low res memebase screencap, it was screenshotted and reposted all across social media until it became legend.
the ages you see in this bulbapedia screencap were edited. bulbapedia has either omitted their ages entirely, or put them at 25 for reasons we’ll discuss at the end of this post.
because i’m a petty bitch, i googled the tumblr username of the person who added that bulbapedia screencap, found what their current URL was, and searched team rocket’s names on their blog. here’s what i discovered.
OP claims it wasn’t them who edited the ages–that they just found it like this. NOT sure i buy that, because I looked into it, and right around the time this post was made (January 8th, 2014) there was a random, unprecedented edit that erroneously put their ages at 15.
this resulted in mods locking the page, because this person was relentless. they would go on team rocket’s pages every day and try to edit the ages back down. again, i can’t prove this is the same person, but these edits happened within 24 hours of them adding to that post. this is, in my professional opinion, the biggest shift i ever saw in people talking about team rocket’s ages. but there are other things people bring up…
2. “Jessie said she was a teenager!”
she does this sometimes. here are the times she does this.
- In episode 218 of the original series, Plant It Now… Diglett Later, the following exchange happens:
This would make Jessie 12. This is a joke. A running gag in the show is younger characters calling Jessie variations on ‘old lady/old bat/old hag,’ and James gets this treatment to a lesser extent. Jessie, however, is incredibly vain and obsessed with youth/beauty, so she often lies to great extent about her age. When Jessie says something like “Oh, I’m 13 years old ;3c” it is meant to carry the same feeling as “Aren’t I the most gorgeous creature walking this very Earth?” To Jessie, calling her old = calling her ugly. Calling herself young = calling herself beautiful. This trope is common with her particular anime archetype–it is more of a Japanese thing, so while I understand it being lost on american audiences, it is NOT proof of her age.
Right after this, Meowth calls her out on it, asking her where she learned that math, and Jessie angrily threatens him. It’s a joke.
- In episode 56 of the original series, The Ultimate Test, Jessie is in disguise at a Pokemon League qualification exam. When Ash starts giving her the ‘she looks vaguely familiar’ side-eye, she panics and starts muttering information about herself aloud. I will be using the original Japanese line for this one:
This is quoted constantly as proof that Jessie is a teenager–but she is blatantly stating false information about herself here because she’s in disguise and Ash is onto her. This is a false identity she’s crafted, marked even further by “I work as an idol.” That’s an actual profession she’s talking about, one she doesn’t work. Since Japanese Idols weren’t widely unknown to westerners at the time of this dub, her dub line is simply “Age: 17. Profession: Diva.” which makes it a little harder to read that she’s lying about who she is, but she is. The information she’s stating here is that of an alias. It is not her actual age or profession.
3. You literally just posted a screencap of James saying he should get a driver’s license.
Okay, smart guy, that’s also jokes. The joke isn’t that he’s too young to drive–the joke is that he was a runaway at five years old and had his childhood & all his milestones taken from him because he defected from his abusive family in kindergarten. Also, he’s in the mafia and he just drives his damn balloon everywhere. The joke is that he’s a criminal driving without a license. The joke is breaking the law because he’s James. Its the same as when Jessie will casually say things like “Oh, that’s a good book! I’ve been meaning to shoplift one!” (EP157)
Also, it’s a dub-only line.
“Okay, I guess I see where you’re coming from. But why are you so sure they’re 25?”
Glad you asked!
You might notice the Bulbapedia article up there says “as of M02.″ M02 is the fandom shorthand for the second pokemon movie: Pokemon the Movie: 2000. It’s referring to one scene in particular, one that had its dialogue massively changed in the dub. Here, Jessie and James are addressing Ash & co.:
The subber condensed the point of what James/Kojirou actually says here–his sentence when translated literally is more like:
Jessie: You’re ten years too early.
James: And us, your elders, are five years too late.
this is… a very Japanese expression, but because Ash & co. are 10 years old, Jessie’s basically saying “You really don’t need to be thinking this deeply about romance until you’re 20.” and James is saying “And we’re past our prime at the tender age of 25…”
Some other times this expression has been used, regrettably, is when older men are perving on the female kids in this show–they’ll say things like “I’ll look forward to you in ten years.” Gross, I know, but the point is it’s a thing people say. 20 is considered the age you’re supposed to settle down and marry. 25, especially for women, is considered the age when you’re “off the market”–you missed your window and now no one wants you.
That ties back into Jessie’s thing about youth and beauty and how other characters call her an old lady. What they’re calling her originally is usually some variation on ‘oba-san.’ This term is so widely used in anime that there’s a TVTropes page on it. An english equivalent would be rolling your eyes and sarcastically uttering ‘whatever, grandma’ or, if you really want me to one-shot kill you, ‘ok boomer.’
Another derogatory term you hear in Japan for this age is ‘Christmas Cake.’ Simply put: Delicious to a point, but no one wants it after the 25th.
Yeah.
“That line is still super vague. Their ages could still be ambiguous.”
I regret to inform you that I am very autistic and I have prepared timelines and flowcharts for you.
Allow me to introduce you to The Birth of Mewtwo, an audio drama that released alongside the first movie and was never given an english localization. TBOM (the book of mormon) was about Mewtwo’s Origins that weren’t expanded upon in the movie. But, in order to get to the bottom of Mewtwo, the story had to get to the bottom of how Team Rocket got their hands on Mew’s DNA–and that all started with a Class-A Rocket Agent known simply as ‘Miyamoto.’
if you didn’t know, she’s Jessie’s mom.
TBOM is fully translated and available to listen to in multiple parts on youtube. It opens with Giovanni placing it in the timeline:
Twenty years prior to Pokemon: The First Movie, when this radio drama is said to take place. It then goes into a flashback, where we get to see Jessie’s mom in her pursuit of Mew.
Jessie’s already been born by the time of this flashback, meaning, with 100% certainty, that Jessie is at least 20 years old.
As time passes, Miyamoto stays on her quest to find Mew. Lost in the Andes mountains, she never stops sending reports back to Rocket HQ. Every few years, they trickle back in, detailing her progress. She keeps a picture of Jessie with her, often meandering aloud about what she anticipates Jessie is doing–the milestones Jessie is hitting, the life Jessie might have that her mom was never able to see. The last report she gives says “The daughter I left behind’s an old hag by now…” the word she uses here is, again, ‘oba’–25 years old and unmarried. Again, this is Jessie’s mom. She might be stranded in the mountains with little concept of time, but it’s clear Jessie is the one thing she never truly loses sight of.
“Okay. That sure is a lot of convincing evidence about Jessie. But Team Rocket has another human person in it you’re ignoring.”
Yeah nah I was prepared for that. I actually could’ve just whipped this out at the beginning but I am feeling incredibly spicy so I wanted to lay the law down and not deal with easy arguments about my special interest tonight. Here ya go!
- In episode 87 of the Sun & Moon anime, Filling the Light With Darkness!, Necrozma places an aura across the Alola Region. This blight makes Alolans lethargic, depressed, and unmotivated. This aura also ONLY affects the adults in Alola–leaving the burden on the kids & pokemon to figure out what’s going on. Ash & everyone in his class–including some who can be argued as teenagers–are entirely unaffected.
Of the afflicted?
“Alright, one last question…why should I care?”
Because ever since that tumblr post started circulating, it’s been Stressful as all hell to be a Rocketblogger. I know that we all had a lot of fun watching the pokemon anime when we were kids, and we probably all have a lot of shared and fond memories of it. But, weirdly enough, because of that shared joy… Pokeani is the only fandom where people who don’t even watch the show anymore will try to explain to members of the fandom what our own lore is. And a lot of the time, they won’t listen to us when we correct them on their misinformation.
The reason this matters is because Rocketbloggers still to this day get called pedophiles & perverts for drawing/writing smutty art of our funny bad people. And when we try to shut them down pulling all this evidence out, people who have seen a handful of episodes of the show but understandably don’t have the time to watch 1100 episodes will pull the doth protest too much card. It’s annoying but more than anything, it’s exhausting.
So this is a masterpost I made with my autistic superpowers. I hope that, in the future, this one gets spread around more than the one claiming them to be kids. And I hope that maybe, if you’re a rocketblogger, when someone comes in your inbox trying to explain your favourite anime to you… you can quietly link them to this post and no longer have to rehash all the arguments we’ve been rehashing for years.
Thank you for reading. Reblog to save a tired Rocketblogger’s life.
This is a pretty good in-depth deep dive into Jessie and James' ages within the Pokémon Anime.
A Simple Breakdown Of Who Does What For Pokémon
The following is based on the Moon Channel's Deep Dive On Who Really Owns Pokémon.
The Pokémon Company handles branding, licensing, marketing, etc. The Pokémon Company International sends DMCAs on the International front.
Creatures Inc. does things like create 3D assets.
Game Freak is the developers.
Nintendo is the head, who owns the trademarks. If Game Freak broke away from Nintendo, Nintendo would still own Pokémon, as they own the trademarks. You can even check the back of your box of Scarlet and Violet to see this detail A complicated web with a 1/3 ownership due to how things work in Japan. Overall ending with Nintendo having ultimate control over everything, while not being super up front about it. Nintendo calls the shots. Written by Eris the Lorekeeper
A pretty good deep dive in the trans Beauty Nova
These 2 videos sum up a the problem with hype and consumerism in within the gaming space, especially with Pokémon.
Red's Pikachu In Pokémon Masters Ex Is Not In The Ken Sugimori Art Style
Recently in Pokémon Presents it was announced the there would be a Red Sync Pair added to Pokémon Masters Ex in the Ken Sugimori art style. With it leading some to believe the Pikachu will also be in the Ken Sugimori art style. Especially with the fact it show both Red and Pikachu in the promotion in the Ken Sugimori art style, and it saying Red & Pikachu.
This is not the case, the Red's Pikachu is not in the Ken Sugimori art style.
People Don't Understand The Palworld Lawsuit Or Nintendo's Patents
Something I have come to find is a lot of people really don't understand the what the Palworld lawsuit is about, or what exactly the Nintendo patents are. Many people are just repeating what they heard other people say without any second thought about it, and others are just straight up lying about things. Overall a lot of false claims are going around with.
For example, a minor false claim that is made often in passing that gives people a bizarre perception about it; is how many people are claiming Pocketpair is an indie company. This makes it seem like a Big Corporation is trying to stomp out a small indie company. But this overlooks the fact Pocketpair was bought up by Sony, and basically became their Game Freak, and this is the reason why Nintendo is going after Palworld. Not because they are afraid of some indie company. In addition people bring up Nintendo being strict with copyright, and Sonic Team being lax with it; without understanding the why.
Another one is how people think one of Nintendo's Patents is trying to patent the idea of summoning a creature or character and having them battle another for you. It made it seem like Nintendo was trying to patent a whole entire concept seen in many forms of media like Digimon, or in games where you just summon an ally. But in reality the patent is very specific and technical, where it first must be a game on a device like a pc or console. Characters must move in a virtual space, a character is summoned and they perform a task such as auto battle, stay stationary, or be instructed to do things like collect resources. Aka it's referring to the Legends Arceus system. In addition it use pictures as well to go with it, alongside other specifics.
All that said I want to recommend 3 videos by Moon Channel, which actually go through all of this stuff. I share this in hopes it can help dispel the misconceptions people have.
The following is several posts about the Theory Crafting and Lore Hunting Communities.
A Proposal For Fan Theory Etiquette My Thoughts On Game Theory Why I Don't Like Game Theory A Problem With Theorizing Part 1, 2, 3, 4 What Parallels Are And Aren't A Problem With Mario Theories And Lore Hunting
Related Posts A Rant About The Treatment Of Spin-Offs In Video Games How Retcons Are Supposed To Work
In PKMNLA The Unown Are Stronger
So something I noticed isn't talked about a lot is that in Pokémon Legends Arceus the Unown's only move hidden power changes type and does more damage than in other games. Written by Eris.
Nobunaga's Shiny Rayquaza
So in Pokémon Conquest the character Nobunaga has a Shiny Rayquaza. This same Shiny Rayquaza was in a Pokémon Black & White event in Japan. This is seen as a link between Pokémon Conquest and the Pokémon Timeline, as many event Pokémon do have an affect on the canon. Written by Eris
How Old Is Red In Pokemon Sun And Moon?
So in the Gen 7 games Red had showed up as an adult, and many people have wondered how old is he in these games. Well.......
So as established in a previous post, Red was 11 years old during the events of the Kanto games. We know the Kanto games take place in 1996, and we know Porygon was created in 1995. Well it's Gen 7 dex entries state Porygon was created 20 years before the events of these games. Sun: "Roughly 20 years ago, it was artificially created, utilizing the latest technology of the time." Ultra Sun: "This Pokémon was created using the cutting-edge science of 20 years ago, so many parts of it have since become obsolete." Ultra Moon: "It was built 20 years ago by scientists who dreamed of exploring space. Their dreams have yet to come true."
This would mean Red would have to around 29-30 years old in the Gen 7 games. Written by Eris
The Seasonal Bird Trio Hypothesis
So something I've noticed online is people questioning the status of the Legendary Bird Trio, many people question their status as legendaries, and believe they are just fancy birds. People point out they appear to have no lore in any games including Gen 1. As well that they don't represent anything like the Creation Trio, the Lake Trio, or even the Weather/Ancient Trio. Or so we people think.......
So after my previous post of these birds I got to thinking about what the Japanese Dex Entries say about these birds. And I may have discovered what these birds represent in the Pokemon world. I am calling my hypothesis the Seasonal Bird Trio Hypothesis, or Theory if you prefer that term. Source for Dex Entries: ポケモン(Pokemon) Wiki Simple Google Translation
So, starting with Articuno we get the following dex entry. Pikachu(Yellow) , Pokemon Pinball , Let's Go! Pikachu, Let's Go! Eevee ふゆぞらの くうきに ふくまれる すいぶんを こおらせて ゆきを ふらせる でんせつの とりポケモン。 "A legendary bird Pokémon that freezes the water in the winter sky, causing snow to fall." (漢字) 冬空の 空気に 含まれる 水分を 凍らせて 雪を 降らせる 伝説の 鳥ポケモン。 "(Kanji) A legendary bird Pokémon that freezes the moisture in the winter air and causes it to snow."
Next we have the following dex entry for Zapdos. Crystal きらめく ハネで はばたくと はげしい かみなりが はっせいする でんせつの とりポケモンの ひとつ。 "This legendary bird Pokémon sends down thunder and create summer storms with every flap of its wings."
Then we have the dex entries for Moltres. Silver , Soul Silver ファイヤーが すがたをみせた ゆきぐには ひとあしはやく はるになるという でんせつポケモン。 "It is said that in any snow region where Moltres appears, spring will come quickly." Crystal はるの おとずれと ともに なんごくから とんでくると いわれる でんせつの とりポケモン。 "A legendary bird Pokémon that is said to fly from all over the world with the arrival of spring." Diamond, Pearl , Platinum , Black, White , Black 2, White 2 , Y , Brilliant Diamond, Shining Pearl でんせつの とりポケモンの 1ぴき。ファイヤーが すがたを みせると はるが おとずれると いわれている。 "One of the legendary bird Pokémon. It is said that when Moltres appears, spring will arrive." (漢字) 伝説の とりポケモンの 1匹。ファイヤーが 姿を 見せると 春が 訪れると 言われている。 "(Kanji) One of the legendary bird Pokémon. It is said that when Moltres appears, spring will arrive."
So as you can see each of the legendary birds is associated with a season and even plays a part in each season. Articuno makes winter snow with it's freezing powers. Zapdos creates thunder and summer storms. Something to note is in Japan summer appears to be within Typhoon Season(May-October). Finally Moltres' arrival means spring will arrive soon. Now if you may be wondering about fall, there is only 3 birds, and often times different places and pieces of media often don't take fall into account for seasonal representation.
But yeah all 3 of the birds are associated with the seasons in some way, which likes plays into their status as divine birds that are considered legendary. So it does seem like as I am dubbing them, the Seasonal Bird Trio does indeed deserve their status as Legendary Pokemon. Written by Eris
Some Possible Hidden Lore About The Legendary Bird Trio
So after getting curious I checked out the Pokemon Illustrated Book Of Pocket Monsters Character Art Book Encyclopedia Pokedex Creatures Inc Guide Book, and I got some interesting stuff on the Legendary Bird Trio on page 51. Basic Google Translation
So from the looks of things Articuno doesn't have anything too interesting. As for Zapdos it appears to be referred to as a divine bird that lives for thousands of years. This like applies to the other 2 birds. And it seems to ask the question if thunder is a sign of Zapdos' anger. Meanwhile Moltes' information seems to speak of legend in which it's blood could grant immortality. This could give more for the Phoenix connections.
Overall some interesting stuff that gives us more about these birds than just, some birds that are called legendary. Written By Eris
Mew Fossil
So a little detail that is brought up here and there is Mew fossils. In the Pokemon The First Movie a Mew fossil is used to make Mewtwo. In the Detective Pikachu movie a newspaper makes mention of a Mew fossil being found at a Ryme City dig site. Written by Eris
Mewtwo Is An Urban Legend In The Pokemon World
So I've had some conversations with some others about how well known Mewtwo is, in the Pokemon World and within specific timelines.
From here we concluded at least in the first and original timeline containing Pokemon Red, Blue, and Yellow that Mewtwo was caught by Red. Leaving Red, Blue, Oak, Team Rocket, Fuji, Blaine, the Pokemon, the Elite 4, and other professors as some of the few people who know about the existence of Mewtwo.
We also debated on the other timelines on whether or not this is the case through if Red caught Mewtwo and released them, or never caught them at all. This is because in the 3rd timeline Mewtwo can be found in caught in Pokemon HeartGold and SoulSilver. While in Pokemon Gold, Crystal, and Silver they cannot be caught as Red had already caught them previously. Meanwhile in the timeline dubbed in the mega timeline a Mewtwo can be found in Kalos.
But then we also had to take into account there is at least 2 Mewtwo, the Kanto Mewtwo and the Sky Fortress Mewtwo. But overall, Mewtwo still shouldn't be too well known by many people, whether or not they are caught.
That brings me back to the Pokemon Illustrated Book Of Pocket Monsters Character Art Book Encyclopedia Pokedex Creatures Inc Guide Book. So on page 52 we get information on Mewtwo, which refers to Mewtwo's creation as an urban legend. Basic Google Translation This gives us some information about the general public's knowledge in Pokemon about Mewtwo. Mewtwo and it's creation to people in the Pokemon world, is an urban legend. Trainers and whatnot speak of an Pokemon said to have been created in a lab. Maybe it exists maybe it doesn't, nobody really knows for sure, it's just an urban legend after all. Mewtwo is basically a cryptid in the Pokemon world. Written by Eris
The Kanto Pokedex Was Completed In 1996
So in the Pokemon Illustrated Book Of Pocket Monsters Character Art Book Encyclopedia Pokedex Creatures Inc Guide Book on page 8 we get some information about the Pokedex. Here it is revealed that the Pokedex was completed in 1996 through Oak's investigations, which as we know was done by Red and Blue. This is also a whole year after the creation of Porygon. Basic Google Translation
Now it says that 150 Pokemon were discovered which would include Mewtwo, meaning in the Gen 1 games Red had caught Mewtwo. But this also means Mew was never caught by Red; which makes sense because the Mew glitch doesn't count, and the Mew event had no story bits to make it canon.
Now this bit of information reveals to us that the events of Pokemon Red, Blue, and Yellow all happen in 1996. This is likely the case for Pokemon FireRed and LeafGreen and other Pokemon Timelines. This is backed up by the fact that the adult Red has a shirt that says 96, referencing the year 1996. Written by Eris.
Porygon Was Created In 1995
So in the Pokemon Illustrated Book Of Pocket Monsters Character Art Book Encyclopedia Pokedex Creatures Inc Guide Book on page 42 we get some information on Porygon. The information in this book reveals to us that Porygon was created in 1995 on Cinnabar Island. This actual takes place a whole year before the events of the Kanto games. Basic Google Translation Written by Eris