A good ol’ fashioned Tumblr giveaway. Here is where I date myself.
In order to promote moving over here to MontanaHeathen from RamblingLokean, I am doing a giveaway. You will Receive one paperback copy of Gods and Myths of Northern Europe, and the pictured Mjolnir.
Rules:
1. Must be following this blog, MontanaHeathen.
2. Reblog, but do not spam followers.
3. Must have your inbox open so I can contact you.
4. No spam blogs, hate blogs, or that ilk.
That’s it! I’ll be choosing a winner at random on April 15th. I have no idea if anyone still does these but I’m old and tired so here we go.
I’m good, but a little bit rusty since most of the readings I have been doing of late have been for the same two people (one family member, one client). I would like to get some more exercise as it were.
Normally I charge a fee, or accept exchanges, but because I am trying to bring people on over to this blog AND scrape off the rust… I’m going to offer free one rune readings for a limited amount of time. Note that anonymous readings are more difficult – and that I will not be publishing your reading on the blog. It will be sent back to you in a message, nice and discreet.
Regarding your UPG post - please don't think I'm being obtuse, I'm baffled & willing to learn how Thor can be a god of thunder when we now know about & can scientifically predict the physical processes that cause thunder & lightning. I guess it could symbolize the release of tension (perhaps whipped up by Skytreader?) in the heavens when Thor defeats an enemy with Mjollnir, but I'm just not sure. If you have any ideas you're happy sharing on the matter, please do, I'm all ears! Thank you!
Hey anon!
While we modern day people may know the science behind thunder, keep in mind that “ancient” people sought to explain natural phenomenon through their belief systems. When I say something like “Thor is the god of thunder”, I’m not really going off of our modern knowledge of atmospheric processes. Instead, I’m going off of how he is referred to in myth – that, and linguistically, Thor/Thunar literally means “Thunder”.
Gods and Myths of Northern Europe (Davidson) has this interesting little tidbit… do forgive the quote within a quote.
‘There was an undoubted link between Thor as the thunder god and fertility of the earth, on which the lightning strikes and the rain falls, causing increase. Adam of Bremen writes of Thor as the most important of the gods, because of this power over the seasons:
They say he rules the air which controls the thunder and the lightning, the winds and showers, the fair weather and fruits of the earth.. (History of the Bishops of Hamburg, IV 26).
Thor is also associated heavily with strength – he most often uses his brute strength, along with Mjolnir to win his battles with the frost giants and enemies of the Aesir.
I really suggest reading “Gods and Myths of Northern Europe”, as it has some interesting tidbits. It IS an older book, but still a resource that I’m rather fond of.
Personally? I wouldn’t go so far as to say that the thunder symbolizes the release of tensions stirred up by the Wolf’s Father. Thor is very, very, very often stated to be off fighting frost giants and so beating his hammer. Thor does show up and resolve things (see Lokasenna) but I feel like there is a strong tendency to associate Loki with too much, particularly on Tumblr…. and I’m saying that as a Lokean!
I also want to note that I don’t like simplifying deities to “god of this” or “god of that” because it takes away from the dimensional natures of them. It is really easy to say Thor is the “god of thunder” and leave it at that, but I think it is better to think of it as him having domain over it – it is something associated with him, that he rules over, but it isn’t all there is to him. He is also a god of strength, of protection, of frith between the common folk. He is a father and a husband. He is a friend of Loki, perhaps being more sympathetic to him due to their many travels together. He is straightforward. There is a lot more to Thor than thunder!
If you’re deterred from thinking of him as a god of thunder because of modern knowledge of atmospheric processes, I’ll admit I’m going to scratch my head a little… it may be helpful to think of it as you suggested, symbolic of a release of tension. You could think of the atmospheric process being set off by the churning of his goat’s hooves and the wheels of his cart. Or you could simply think of it as something associated with him – where Thor is, Thunder may be, whether or not you believe he is creating it.
I will also note that I’m a hard polytheist, with a true and earnest belief and love for the gods I worship. I believe they exist, and that they are distinct separate entities. That being said, I also believe in science. Religion and science don’t have to be in opposition. I can sit here and know what causes thunder and lightning and still pour out mead for Thor to acknowledge his presence.
Unverified Personal Gnosis and you... and your neighbor, and your dog.
This is a brief interlude, but something that I’m thinking about. Online, the concept of UPG is a rather familiar one – but what is the value of UPG, exactly?
A good ol’ fashioned Tumblr giveaway. Here is where I date myself.
In order to promote moving over here to MontanaHeathen from RamblingLokean, I am doing a giveaway. You will Receive one paperback copy of Gods and Myths of Northern Europe, and the pictured Mjolnir.
Rules:
1. Must be following this blog, MontanaHeathen.
2. Reblog, but do not spam followers.
3. Must have your inbox open so I can contact you.
4. No spam blogs, hate blogs, or that ilk.
That’s it! I’ll be choosing a winner at random on April 15th. I have no idea if anyone still does these but I’m old and tired so here we go.
Because RamblingLokean is a side blog, and I’d like to be able to follow back and participate in community on a Tumblr all of its own -- I’ve made MontanaHeathen. I’ll reblog posts from it over here, but I am making an effort to migrate in that direction.
This is an effort to separate my personal Tumblr from my religious one. Thank you for following MontanaHeathen. This will be reblogged at a later date in the event that it is missed.
The next well in my little discussion is Mimisbrunnr, or Mimir’s Well. Again, we find it attested to in both the Poetic and Prose Eddas.
Tom Hollander’s translation of the Poetic Edda, Voluspa:
“What sleekest to know, why summon me?
Well know I, Ygg, where thy eye is hidden:
In the wonderous well of Mimir;
each morn Mimir his mead doth drink
out of Fjolnir’s pledge: know ye further,
or how?
My Penguin Classic’s copy of the Prose Edda says:
Under the root that goes to the frost giants is the Well of Mimir. Wisdom and intelligence are hidden there, and Mimir is the name of the well’s owner. He is full of wisdom because he drinks of the well from the Gjallarhorn. All-Father went there and asked for one drink from the well, but he did not get this until he gave one of his eyes as a pledge.
It seems that there is a general agreement that Mimir, the owner of the well, drinks from Gjallarhorn. The mention of him drinking from “Fjolnir’s Pledge” has the potential to be confusing. This is more than likely a kenning, referencing the water and Odin’s sacrifice of his eye for a drink. It can be tricky to track all of Odin’s names across the lore, and it can be equally difficult to keep up with kennings.
I have read some contention about what it is, exactly, that Heimdall has in the well. This really seems to depend on the translation, and considerations of dialect and concurrent linguistics – it may be that it is simply his horn, Gjallahorn, or it may be that he has made a similar sacrifice to Odin and has left behind his hearing or ear in order to attain some furthered perception. Carolyne Larrington’s translation of the Poetic Edda (1996, 2015 Oxford World's Classics) seems to be the origin of this. I have not personally read this translation, but I find that particular interpretation interesting. From the excerpt available through Google books, her translation reads:
She knows that Heimdall’s hearing is hidden
under the radiant, sacred, tree;
she sees pouring down, the muddy torrent
from the wager of Father of the Slain; do you
understand yet, or what more?
This is also a great example of feeling out different translations. You may find that one resonates or makes more sense to you than others. I use Hollander’s, but I am also aware that there have been some criticisms of that particular translation due to some choices Hollander made in order to smooth the poetic flow, as it were. Feel it out. Read several translations. It can’t hurt you.
Moving on from that, I am going to go into my UPG. Again, this is Unverified Personal Gnosis, and as such, is not written in stone. You are not required to adhere to it, and you are certainly not wrong if you do or don’t.
My mind associates Mimisbrunnr more with the present, and personal memory. It is, to me, living and active knowledge that can be obtained and learned in the moment. For me, Mimisbrunnr is “what is” instead of “what was” or “what will be”. It makes sense in my mind for Odin to seek knowledge from Mimisbrunnr, because it is important to know about what is currently happening in order to make plans and anticipate the future. I also mentioned personal memory. What I mean by this is memory that can easily be drawn on, memories that you have formed yourself, and have not been twisted and weathered by time. Personal memory would be, for me, learning to knit as opposed to learning to walk – one I can actually recall the process of, and the other I cannot. I only have stories from others and the evidence of the present that it happened.
I also feel a lot of potential in Mimisbrunnr. For me, this would be the “student’s well” where one would go in order to approach a new subject that they’re wanting to learn about. This can bridge the gap between “what is”, to “what was”, but we must remember that all waters spring forth from Hvergelsmir. The past informs the present, what was informs what is and is not beyond the knowledge of now.
This well is less gloomy than the other. It appears to me more manmade, with smooth gray stones that the dark, deep water laps at. It is sheltered from the sun by the great root of Yggdrasil. It is not warm there, but the water does not freeze – it is far too deep. I most often imagine Mimir’s head as being like the mouth of a fountain, drinking mouthfuls of the deep water while at the same time allowing it to flow back. Some of the stones around the edge of the well are worn smooth by the presence of the All-Father, from the times that he has come to consult with Mimir. Peering into the well, one might be able to make out Odin’s eye – gray and unseeing while strangely omniscient all at once, peering back up out of the waters. I see Heimdall’s horn sitting upon a smooth stone ledge, the waters dripping over it and from it as they do Mimir’s mouth. To me, this is more peaceful than Hvergelsmir – but I can tell you as a seeming lifelong student, there is always a price for knowledge!
In this day and age, it is incredibly easy to go online and find resources. It is actually amazing that so many of us have small devices in our pockets that allow us to look up virtually anything. …
The link was kind of messed up on this one before. This is a simple discussion on resources and how to acquire some.
If you need help with finding something within a library, I am an Interlibrary Loan Technician at my local library part time. I am happy to give you advice and assistance if you should ask.
Hello to people new to following me. My blog was on hiatus for a long time. I will primarily be writing over on WordPress and linking those posts back here.
If you’d like me to talk about something, please do not hesitate to ask (anonymous is enabled). I’m fairly laid back and don’t bite unless provoked and even then I’m more likely to polite you to the point of non-response than anything.
Edderkopper over on Tumblr brought up some interesting points in response to my post on Hvergelmir. I found it kind of surprising that out of all three wells, you view Hvergelmir as the representat…
I have attached the text of the post on my other blog here, as well as the link.
So, I’ve been wanting to do this “Deep Waters” discussion of the Well of Wyrd and the three wells that compose this concept for a little while. I feel like I don’t often see many discussions on the Wells, though this could very well be due to the community circles that I run in. There will be three posts, one for each well. I hope they’re interesting reading.
Disclaimer: While my background is primarily in Norse stuff, I am a Manannanan. My opinions on anything water-symbolism-related will inherently be colored by the Lord of Mists and keeper of the Well of Five Streams. I am in no way claiming that my UPG is entirely compatible with the Icelandic lore.
I found it kind of surprising that out of all three wells, you view Hvergelmir as the representation of aspects that are ingrained and unchangeable. I’m not saying you’re wrong or anything, because as you said, that’s the nature of UPG. I’d be curious to hear more about the thought process that led you to that, though, if you’re willing to share.
My personal take is that out of all the wells, Hvergelmir is arguably the one most associated with flow. It gives rise to all the waters of the world. Nidhogg, a force of primal chaos, churns the waters. It’s a font of change, insurance that nothing is truly immutable. Which still oddly fits with the idea of it being a mortal wound. That’s an interesting take.
Expanding on that with my filthy Manannán-tainted hands, I guess you could say I view Hvergelmir as the opposite of–or maybe the complement to–Mimisbrunnr. The wisdom and other offered treasures (and miscellaneous body parts) that Mimisbrunnr catches, it keeps, for all eternity. It is water in its role of symbolizing the hidden and otherworldly and unknown.
But Hvergelmir flows outward. It permeates everything in the form of mist. It nourishes the worlds, and bestows the wisdom that drips down from Valhalla onto everything…though because of the constant churn, it’s a more earthy wisdom, the stuff that gets passed along rather than hidden. And there’s the beautiful, terrible paradox that we see so often in Norse myth: the same forces that nourish the world also drive its destruction.
Anyway, yeah, sorry. I get water feels sometimes and can’t shut up. Feel free to ignore. Though thanks for the mental image of playing fetch with Nidhogg.
Do not apologize! This is exactly the kind of thing I like and wanted. Your views are interesting to me -- and I can actually see where you’re coming from. I rather like the idea of permeation and pushing out... however, because I am how I am, I can still link that with my view.
I see it as “unchangeable” because I heavily link Hvergelmir with the past. Things that have already happened, way, way, back when. It is something that we cannot change, though everything about us and our world originates from the past. It is so far in the past that it is beyond personal memory and dwells more in the concept of inherited memory, if that makes a lick of sense at all. I’ll talk more about my associations with Mimisbrunnr in my next post.
I do associate Hvergelmir with “earthy wisdom” but in the way that it is wisdom that is passed on, that doesn’t seem to have a clear origin because it is now ingrained in as common knowledge.
I love your phrasing about the “beautiful terrible paradox” of Norse myth because it is so true. And you see it repeated again and again and again.
Never apologize for engaging, I really like different view points because they give me something to think on. Even though I have my view on this, I can absolutely see the validity in yours and appreciate you bringing it up. If you don’t mind, I’m going to make a mention of this conversation on my WordPress blog.
I have been told by so many people that I’m a “water” person and I frankly don’t see it because I don’t seek water, I don’t feel at home in water. I enjoy rivers and streams, but you won’t catch me in the ocean. I’m more of an air person... ;)
I have attached the text of the post on my other blog here, as well as the link.
So, I’ve been wanting to do this “Deep Waters” discussion of the Well of Wyrd and the three wells that compose this concept for a little while. I feel like I don’t often see many discussions on the Wells, though this could very well be due to the community circles that I run in. There will be three posts, one for each well. I hope they’re interesting reading.
Be advised that while these posts will include some references, there will also be some UPG (unverified personal gnosis). I will note this when it is present. I really don’t want anyone to confuse my UPG for concrete fact.
Hvergelmir: The Seething Cauldron
Hvergelmir is to be found in Nifleheim, beneath the roots of Yggdrasil. It is believed that all waters, all streams and rivers, are birthed from Hvergelmir. The waters of the well seethe and boil because the dragon Nidhogg and a great number of serpents churn the water.
Hvergelmir is attested to in the Poetic Edda, in Grímnismál
Eikthyrnir, the hart on the hall that stands
eateth off Lærath’s limbs;
drops from his horns in Hvergelmir fall,
thence wend all the waters their way.
Eikthyrnir the hart (a kind of deer) stands atop of Valhalla. It would be possible to interpret these drops falling from his horns into Hvergelmir as being part and parcel of the origin of the waters. Valhalla would seem to be positioned somewhere above Hvergelmir, if these waters are able to fall from Eikthyrnir’s horns into the well. Whenever one starts to delve into things like this within the mythology, you’re left asking questions… when was Valhalla built, that the hart standing atop it contributes to the well where all waters originate?
Something I would like to think on: Knowing that the sons of Borr made the word of the body of Ymir, and his blood gave us oceans and rivers, could this well be potentially interpreted as the killing wound within the body of the giant?
The Prose Edda mentions Hvergelmir four times within Gylfaginning. The Prose Edda is where we learn that Hvergelmir is located within Nifleheim beneath the roots of Yggdrasil, the names of some of the rivers coming forth from it, that there are at least 26 rivers, another mention of Eikthyrnir, and that Nidhogg resides within the waters and spends some of his leisure time tormenting the dead (my words).
It truly isn’t much to go off of, but it situates the well within the world and presents us with some beings which interact with it. With such a minor mention, you may be asking yourself why I’m interested in this or what value I may see in it.
That is where my UPG comes into play. This being said, warning, up ahead there is UPG. These are my own thoughts and opinions, formulated by what I have read. I do not require anyone to adhere to these thoughts and opinions and indeed encourage you to form your own. If you agree with me, you’re not wrong. If you disagree with me, you’re not wrong. We just have different opinions. The following is probably not for you if you are not mystically inclined.
Because Hvergelmir is situated within Nifleheim, I see it shrouded in mists. I do not see it as what one might think of as a well — that is, something man made, with stone surrounding it that one might draw water out of. Instead, I see it as more of a natural underground spring, like the one from Mexico which I chose as the featured image for this post. The visibility would be very poor, but you’d be able to hear the churning of the water. There would be a distinct, reptile, smell accompanied with the sound of rushing water. I imagine the water giving off heat, feeding the mists around it. The water falling from the horns of Eikthyrnir mimic precipitation, which is (to me) a primal source of water upon the Earth as well. Rains feed the rivers and streams, the water deep within the Earth, and so the liquid falling from Eikthyrnir horns feeds Hvergelmir.
These are primordial waters, and they aren’t to be trusted to be “safe”. Instead, they should be approached with caution and respect. I noted above that I would like to spend time thinking about whether or not this well could be interpreted within my UPG as the killing wound to Ymir, which caused his blood to rush forth and give waters to the world. I find that I like this thought, as it brings the creation of the world back into the naming of the things within it. And besides, it is easy to imagine this primordial, dark, place as the site of the fatal wound Borr’s sons struck upon the body of Ymir.
When I spend time thinking on Hvergelmir, it brings up emotions that cannot be controlled. Aspects of the self that are ingrained and unchangeable. Things that happened so long ago that they are beyond memory. This would be a place to confront the root of my depression and other mental illnesses, the things which gnaw upon me and torment me in my life, as Nidhogg gnaws on the roots of Yggdrasil and torments the bodies of the deceased. It would benefit me to spend more time in meditation with Hvergelmir.
How would I do that? Or, rather, how would you do that if you wanted to try something I have done?
Gather “primal” water. If you’re lucky enough to live next to a natural spring, or a natural well, then you’re set. If not, I would gather some precipitation. We used snow melt because of the season, but you could use rain or hail stones. Take your gathered water to a space where you feel comfortable conducting a ritual or meditation. Give offerings to the gods and local wights for watching over you and aiding you in your ritual/meditation. Focus on the water you have collected and let it guide you down, down to the waters of Hvergelmir. Imagine what it looks like, what it smells like, what it sounds like. Go cautiously. What is present in the waters for you? What does Nidhogg do? I mentioned above that I feel a great correlation with my mental illness and being able to confront it in this way. There was some relief in understanding that there were things that were outside my control, and that my greater focus should be on patching the damage that was done instead of seeking out what could not be changed… but that is another discussion. When you are done contemplating what the waters mean to you, ease yourself out of the meditation/ritual. Give thanks to the gods and wights for their assistance again, and wrap it up in a way that is most comfortable for you. I always suggest grounding before and after any type of work.
Please also note that I’m not suggesting you go and be buddy buddy with Nidhogg, play fetch with him, or anything like that. I’m not even suggesting that you interact with him in the slightest, only that you observe. I am certain someone is out there who will say “Nidhogg is my pal!” and that may work for them, but he is a being that I would consider Dangerous with a capital D. Not because he is evil or anything like, but instead because he is a primordial being closely tied with the waters of Hvergelmir and the gnawing of the roots of Yggdrasil. It is my belief that interacting with a being like this, while unprepared for what that could bring about, could be very detrimental to your mental health. Do not pass Go if you are not experienced. Do not collect $200 for the “cool factor” of interacting with such a being. Be careful with yourself when you reach out to different beings and different energies within the worlds. If you have interacted with him with no problems, then just imaging me sitting here with my thumb up — and also realize that your experiences (like mine!) are not going to be universal.
I’d be interested in hearing from anyone who uses my very loosely described meditation, or any other thoughts on Hvergelmir.
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