Disclaimer - I in no way endorse incest in any way shape or form, the purpose of these series is to explore taboo subjects from all angles - even the down right ugly side of our world. I WILL NOT CONDONE downright rudeness, flaming, sick comments or otherwise posts that that would go against the T&C's of this site, any such remarks WILL BE reported straight away, if you do have an insightful comment to make regarding this subject then please feel free to comment and discuss, HOWEVER if you just want to troll, this thread IS NOT the one for you.
This by all means is a very tricky topic to discuss anywhere so you can imagine my apprehension at doing a post, now i bet people are wondering why the hell im going to do this, and others will be thinking that this won’t last long, well way i see it is if people respond intelligently and be mindful of T&C this topic will be fine. What got me thinking about this was talking to my kids about Adam & eve, of all things, and it was actually my 8 year old son who asked me how adam and eve had to many children if they were the only ones on earth, not an easy feat to explain to a child about this sorta thing. Anyways thats how the topic came about, please be mindful of my disclaimer here and hopefully the topic will stay tasteful.
There are many types of incest that i feel needs to be clarified at this point , those are:
Between adults and children
This type is the most recorded type of incest, and is a form of child sexual abuse. Father–daughter and stepfather–stepdaughter is the most common type, most of the remaining reports are thought to be involving a mother or stepmother. Father–son incest is reported less often, although it is not known whether the prevalence is less because it is under-reported by a greater margin Prevalence of incest between parents and their children is difficult to assess due to secrecy and privacy; some estimate that 20 million Americans alone were, as children, subjected to incest by a parent.
Research indicates that 46% of children who are raped are victims of family members (Langan and Harlow, 1994). The majority of American rape victims (61%) are raped before the age of 18; furthermore, 29% of all forcible rapes occurred when the victim was less than 11 years old. 11% of rape victims are raped by their fathers or step-fathers, and another 16% are raped by other relatives.
A study of victims of father–daughter incest in the 1970s showed that there were "common features" within families before the occurrence of incest: estrangement between the mother and the daughter, extreme paternal dominance, and reassignment of some of the mother's traditional major family responsibility to the daughter. Oldest and only daughters were more likely to be the victims of incest. It was also stated that the incest experience was psychologically harmful to the woman in later life, frequently leading to feelings of low self-esteem, unhealthy sexual activity, contempt for other women, and other emotional problems.
Adults who as children were incestuously victimized by adults often suffer from low self-esteem, difficulties in interpersonal relationships, and sexual dysfunction, and are at an extremely high risk of many mental disorders, including depression, anxiety, phobic avoidance reactions, somatoform disorder, substance abuse, borderline personality disorder, and complex post-traumatic stress disorder.
Between childhood siblings
Childhood sibling–sibling incest is considered to be widespread but rarely reported.
Sibling-sibling incest becomes child-on-child sexual abuse when it occurs without consent, without equality, or as a result of coercion. The most commonly reported form of abusive sibling incest is abuse of a younger sibling by an older sibling.[28] A 2006 study showed a large portion of adults who experienced sibling incest abuse have distorted or disturbed beliefs (such as that the act was "normal") both about their own experience and the subject of sexual abuse in general.[39]
Sibling abusive incest is most prevalent in families where one or both parents are often absent or emotionally unavailable, with the abusive siblings using incest as a way to assert their power over a weaker sibling.[40] Absence of the father in particular has been found to be a significant element of most cases of sexual abuse of female children by a brother.[41] The damaging effects on both childhood development and adult symptoms resulting from brother–sister sexual abuse are similar to the effects of father–daughter, including substance abuse, depression, suicidality, and eating disorders.[41][42]
Between consenting adults
Sexual activity between adult close relatives may arise from genetic sexual attraction.[43] This form of incest has not been widely reported in the past, but recent evidence has indicated that this behavior does take place, possibly more often than many people realize.[43] Internet chatrooms and topical websites exist that provide support for incestuous couples.[43]
Proponents of incest between consenting adults draw clear boundaries between the behavior of consenting adults and rape, child molestation, and abusive incest.[43] According to one incest participant who was interviewed for an article in The Guardian:
"You can't help who you fall in love with, it just happens. I fell in love with my sister and I'm not ashamed ... I only feel sorry for my mom and dad, I wish they could be happy for us. We love each other. It's nothing like some old man who tries to fuck his three-year-old, that's evil and disgusting ... Of course we're consenting, that's the most important thing. We're not fucking perverts. What we have is the most beautiful thing in the world."[43]
The Guardian article also states:
Voices in Action, a US support group for victims of incest, vehemently rejects these arguments: "These teens have been brainwashed into believing this behaviour is natural; it is not ... Sexual abuse is learned behaviour." But some political thinkers are prepared to support the distinction between abuse and consenting relationships."[43]
In Slate Magazine, William Saletan drew a legal connection between gay sex and incest between consenting adults.[44] As he described in his article, in 2003, U.S. Senator Rick Santorum publicly derided the theory of the Supreme Court ruling to allow private consensual sex in the home (primarily as a matter of Constitutional rights to Privacy and Equal Protection under the Law). He stated: "If the Supreme Court says that you have the right to consensual sex within your home, then you have the right to bigamy, you have the right to polygamy, you have the right to incest, you have the right to adultery."[44] However, David Smith of the Human Rights Campaign professed outrage that Santorum placed being gay on the same moral and legal level as someone engaging in incest. Saletan argued that, legally and morally, there is essentially no difference between the two, and went on to support incest between consenting adults being covered by a legal right to privacy.[44] UCLA law professor Eugene Volokh has made similar arguments.[45]
The most public case of consensual adult sibling incest in recent years is the case of a brother-sister couple from Germany, Patrick Stuebing and Susan Karolewski.[24] Due to violent behavior on the part of the father, the brother was taken in at the age of 3 by foster parents, who adopted him later. At the age of 23 he learned about his biological parents, contacted his mother, and met her and his then 16 year old sister for the first time. The now-adult brother moved in with his birth family shortly thereafter. After their mother died suddenly six months later, the couple became intimately close, and had their first child together in 2001. The public nature of their relationship, and the repeated prosecutions and even jail time they have served as a result, has caused some in Germany to question whether incest between consenting adults should be punished at all.[24] An article about them in Der Spiegel claims the couple are happy together.[24]
Marriages and sexual relationships between cousins are viewed differently in many cultures and may or may not be seen as incest. In many countries, marriage between cousins is legal, whereas some follow a more restrictive doctrine and prohibit such marriages as incestuous, depending on the degree of the relationship.[46] Consanguineous unions remain preferential in North Africa, the Middle East and some parts of Asia, with marriage between first cousins being particularly common.[47] Communities such as the Dhond and the Bhittani of Pakistan clearly prefer marriages between cousins as they ensure purity of the descent line, provide intimate knowledge of the spouses, and ensure that patrimony will not pass into the hands of "outsiders".[48] Some cultures prohibit farther relations than first cousins from marrying and may extend these prohibitions to genetically unrelated individuals, as for example was the case in South Korea before 1997 when anyone with the same last name and clan was prohibited from marriage. In light of this law being held unconstitutional, South Korea now only prohibits up to third cousins (see Article 809 of the Korean Civil Code).
Incest defined through marriage
Some cultures include relatives by marriage in incest prohibitions; these relationships are called affinity rather than consanguinity. For example, the question of the legality and morality of a widower who wished to marry his deceased wife's sister was the subject of long and fierce debate in the United Kingdom in the 19th century, involving, among others, Matthew Boulton.[49][50] In medieval Europe, standing as a godparent to a child also created a bond of affinity.[citation needed] But in other societies, a deceased spouse's brother or sister was considered the ideal person to marry. The Hebrew Bible forbids a man from marrying his brother's widow with the exception that, if his brother died childless, the man is instead required to marry his brother's widow so as to "raise up seed to him" (taken from Deuteronomy 25:5–6).
Incest, the origins of man and the bible
Ok a touchy one to start with yes i know, because i know all the religious folks will come out and swat me with their big fly swatters but thats fine.
Adam and eve are described & taught as being the first man and women on the planet - (see Rom. 5:14; 2 Cor. 11:3; 1 Tim. 2:12-13). Back in those days incest was not considered to be a sin it was thought that if the race was to survive and fulfill the command of GEN. 1:28, it is logical to conclude that Adams sons and daughters had to have married each other. - Also worth noting at this point that there are some scholars out there who believe that the account of Adam and eve are only that of 1 couple.
There is an interesting book that i read a while back by an author called Charles Caldwell Ryrie, the book was called Basic Theology here is an extract on his thoughts about this subject,
How could it claim that Adam and Eve were the first human beings who had two sons, one of whom murdered the other, and yet who produced a large race of people? Clearly, the Bible does teach that Adam and Eve were the first created human beings. The Lord affirmed this in Matthew 19:3-9. The genealogy of Christ is traced back to Adam (Luke 3:38). Jude 14 identifies Enoch as the seventh from Adam. This could hardly mean the seventh from “mankind,” an interpretation that would be necessary if Adam were not an individual as some claim. Clearly, Cain murdered Abel and yet many people were born. Where did Cain get his wife?
We know that Adam and Eve had other sons and daughters in addition to Abel, Cain, and Seth (Gen. 5:4), and if there was only one original family, then the first marriages had to be between brothers and sisters. Such marriages in the beginning were not harmful. Incest is dangerous because inherited mutant genes that produce deformed, sickly, or moronic children are more likely to find expression in children if those genes are carried by both parents. Certainly, Adam and Eve, coming from the creative hand of God, had no such mutant genes. Therefore, marriages between brothers and sisters, or nieces and nephews in the first and second generations following Adam and Eve would not have been dangerous.
Many, many generations later, by the time of Moses, incest was then prohibited in the Mosaic laws undoubtedly for two reasons: first, such mutations that caused deformity had accumulated to the point where such unions were genetically dangerous, and second, it was forbidden because of the licentious practices of the Egyptians and Canaanites and as a general protection against such in society. It should also be noted that in addition to the Bible most other legal codes refuse to sanction marriages of close relatives.
But here is another issue to consider. If one accepts the evolutionary hypothesis as to the origin of the human race, has that really relieved the issue of incest? Not unless you also propound the idea of the evolution of many pairs of beings, pre-human or whatever, at the same time. No matter what theory of the origin of the human race one may take, are we not driven to the conclusion that in the early history of the race, there was the need for intermarriage of the children of the same pair?
Raises some interesting questions, discuss??
Other perhaps questionable relationships in the bible? SOURCE
Cain and his Wife
And Cain went out from the face of the Lord, and dwelt as a fugitive on the earth, at the east side of Eden. And Cain knew his wife, and she conceived, and brought forth Henoch: and he built a city, and called the name thereof by the name of his son Henoch. [Genesis 4:16-17]
Cain was the first born son of Adam and Eve, and Abel was the second. In Genesis 4 we read how Cain kills his brother and is sent east of Eden where he marries a woman and “lays” with her. Because Adam and Eve were the first humans – from whom all people come – Cain’s wife was his sister – and, consequently, all of the early Biblical relationships were incestuous (with the exception of Adam and Eve). Cain, incidentally, was the guy that caused so much trouble for the Mormon’s who believed that the cursed “Mark of Cain” meant black skin, leading them to forbid blacks from entering the Mormon priesthood (God “revealed” that they were allowed to let black skinned people in to the priesthood in 1978). You can read more about that blunder here. In the image above we see Cain killing his brother Abel.
Abraham and Sara
Howbeit, otherwise also she is truly my sister, the daughter of my father, and not the daughter of my mother, and I took her to wife. And after God brought me out of my father’s house, I said to her: Thou shalt do me this kindness: In every place, to which we shall come, thou shalt say that I am thy brother. [Genesis 20:12-13]
Abraham married his half sister Sara in Ur. The King of Gerara took her from Abraham and God sent him a dream to tell him that he would be destroyed for taking a woman who already had a husband (God approved of the marriage between the brother and sister). The King returned Sara to Abraham and they remained together as a couple until she died at the age of 127. Incidentally, Abraham died 38 years later at the ripe old age of 175.
Nachor and Melcha
And Thare lived seventy years, and begot Abram, and Nachor, and Aran. And these are the generations of Thare: Thare begot Abram, Nachor, and Aran. And Aran begot Lot. And Aran died before Thare his father, in the land of his nativity in Ur of the Chaldees. And Abram and Nachor married wives: the name of Abram’s wife was Sarai: and the name of Nachor’s wife, Melcha, the daughter of Aran, father of Melcha, and father of Jescha. [Genesis 11:26-29]
This is one of those complex “generations” quotes that are found throughout the early stages of the Bible, but if you pay close attention you can see that Nachor (Abraham’s brother) married Melcha (his niece). It is phrases like those above which make it so difficult to read the Bible cover to cover. Frankly, these parts of the Bible make Proust’s “In Remembrance of Things Past” read like a Doctor Seuss book!
Lot and his Daughters
And the elder said to the younger Our father is old, and there is no man left on the earth, to come in unto us after the manner of the whole earth. Come, let us make him drunk with wine, and let us lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night: and the elder went in and lay with her father: but he perceived not neither when his daughter lay down, nor when she rose up. And the next day the elder said to the younger: Behold I lay last night with my father, let us make him drink wine also to night, and thou shalt lie with him, that we may save seed of our father. They made their father drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went in, and lay with him: and neither then did he perceive when she lay down, nor when she rose up. So the two daughters of Lot were with child by their father. [Genesis 19:31-36]
It doesn’t really get much more blatant than that. The two daughters had sex with their father, Lot, in order to preserve his family line. Incidentally, this all happened shortly after they had fled from Soddom and Gomorrah which was destroyed by God for its immorality – ironic?. After the events described above, Lot had no memory of it (maybe it was the liquor) and nine months later the daughters gave birth to two sons, Moab (father of the Moabites), and Ammon (father of the Ammonites).
Amram and Jochabed
The sons of Merari: Moholi and Musi. These are the kindreds of Levi by their families. 20 And Amram took to wife Jochabed his aunt by the father’s side: and she bore him Aaron and Moses. And the years of Amram’s life were a hundred and thirty-seven. [Exodus 6:19-20]
This is the family history of Moses – the guy who lead the Jews out of Egypt and later was given the ten commandments (which were not actually 10 commandments – more on that here). Jochabed was Moses’ Great-aunty Mom.
Amnon and Thamar
And it came to pass after this, that Amnon the son of David loved the sister of Absalom the son of David, who was very beautiful, and her name was Thamar. And he was exceedingly fond of her, so that he fell sick for the love of her: for as she was a virgin, he thought it hard to do any thing dishonestly with her. [II Kings 13:1-2 ] And Thamar came to the house of Amnon her brother: but he was laid down: and she took meal and tempered it: and dissolving it in his sight she made little messes. And taking what she had boiled, she poured it out, and set it before him, but he would not eat: and Amnon said: Put out all persons from me. And when they had put all persons out, Amnon said to Thamar: Bring the mess into the chamber, that I may eat at thy hand. And when she had presented him the meat, he took hold of her, and said: Come lie with me, my sister. She answered him: Do not so, my brother, do not force me: for no such thing must be done in Israel. Do not thou this folly. [II Kings 13:8-12] But he would not hearken to her prayers, but being stronger overpowered her and lay with her. [II Kings 13:14]
Our final item is not just a case of incest – it is a case of incestuous rape! Amnon fell in love with his sister, Thomar, and was counseled by a crafty man to trick her in to having sex with him. He followed the bad advice and when Thomar tried to defend herself, he raped her. At least justice was ultimately done as Thomar’s other brother, Absalom, killed Amnon two years later in vengeance. Let that be a lesson to us all!
Thoughts
It seems to me that in order for the human race was to survive as a species back then, incest was a necessity in those times. What are your thoughts?? A few more questions to mull over in regards to religion and churches - Have you heard the topic of incest preached or discussed at church? Should it be? Why or why not? How should the church view taboo topics such as incest?
Incest In History
In today’s Culture and society We look upon those that commit incest as weak, depraved, sick individuals (and rightly so, esp in the case of child incest etc etc), the thing that remains though and something that should be examined ( outwith the sick individuals that need shot imho) is that through-out history incest has been a huge part of many cultures and beliefs. According to the great anthropologist Claude Levi Strauss, the incest taboo forms the foundation of civilization by forcing man to find a mate outside of the home. Other people argue it is has a genetic basis, to lower the incidence of congenital defects caused by inbreeding. However - as said throughout history it was pretty common, it is present in the mythology of almost every culture. King Arthur had a child, Mordred, with his sister Morgause. Egyptian god lovers Osiris and Iris were brother and sister. Greek gods Zeus and his wife Hera were brother and sister, as were their parents, Cronus and Rhea. The most famous being Oedipus. In Egyptian royal families it was also encouraged, this was said bcause they wanted to safegaurd the royal blood line. Cleopatra VII married two of her younger brothers. Her mother and father, Cleopatra V and Ptolemy XII, had also been brother and sister. The Incas and the Hawaiians also practiced incest in their royal families. In the Roman-Egyptian census, brother-sister marriage accounts for about 20 percent of all listed. Even though it was eventually outlawed, that didn’t stop Emperor Caligula having sex with all three of his sisters, Julia Livilla, Drusilla, and Agrippina the Younger–though it has ot be said that he was a famous sexual psychopath. For hundreds of years, inbreeding was unavoidable in Iceland due to its then tiny and isolated population. In the 10th century,Pope John XII is said to have taken his niece and his mother as mistresses.
Freud famously argued that everyone’s first sexual desires are directed toward their family, while Melanie Klein considers sexual relations between siblings to be virtually the norm. Historian Lloyd DeMause belives that incest is very much universal, he cites examples from various cultures and often refers to an old indian proverb (For a girl to be a virgin at ten years old, she must have neither brothers, nor cousins, nor fathers”) as an example of how common incest has been.
Other Interesting cases in history
1536 May 15, 1536 - On May 15th 1536 Anne Boleyn was tried for treason, adultery and incest in the Great Hall of the Tower of London with her brother George Boleyn. Her father, Thomas Boleyn the Earl of Wiltshire, was no help. He denounced the crimes of all of those accused accused and tried Mark Smeaton, Sir Francis Weston, William Brereton and Sir Henry Norris who were condemned to death. King Henry excused Thomas Boleyn from the task of condemning his own children, For more
1977 Dec 1977 - Cover of PENTHOUSE December 1977, containing the article INCEST: THE LAST TABOO by Philip Nobile. "If a man ignoring a woman's verbal 'no' is committing date rape, then a woman who says `no' with her verbal language but 'yes' with her body language is committing date fraud. And a woman who continues to be sexual even after she says 'no' is committing date lying... "We have forgotten that before we began calling this date rape and date fraud, we called it exciting.
From THE LIZ LIBRARY: FATHERS' RIGHTS MOVEMENT | research on family
1984 Jan 9, 1984 - Incest - The taboo topic of incest was taken to task in the sensitively produced made-for-TV movie Something About Amelia (written by William Hanley) broadcast January 9, 1984. Something About Amelia starring Roxana Zal and Ted Danson The controversial film told the story of teenager (Roxana Zal) who informed her mother (Glenn Close) that her father (Ted Danson) was forcing her to have sex with him. Zal won an Emmy for her performance.
From TV ACRES: Sex > Taboos > Incest (Something About Amelia)
The case in 2007 of the German couple, Patrick and Susan, who were separated as children and later met and fell in love, has made headlines. They’ve been together for nine years and have four children, three of whom are in care. He has served time in prison fighting for his right to love his sister. This kind of case makes me weary, and to be honest i actually feel sorry for them. My gut reaction (like many) is eww thats your brother/sister. But i do see were their point of view is aswell, imo it is a tough call in a lot of ways, IT IS wrong but you have to feel for them both.
Incest often gets propelled into the headlines such as the cases of - Incest case causes outrage , Man Caught Decades After Kidnapping Teen: Cops , Trucker: I Fathered Stepdaughter's 8 Kids and Josef Fritzl.
Thoughts
Those are obviously just the tip of the iceberg, there have been many many more. Through-out history many deemed this to be *the norm* and *acceptable*. Interesting questions to pose would be -
When did that change? (dont get me wrong the thought literally sickens me), however it’s a question that i am curious about.
Was it purely down to the genetics problems that this was outlawed?
Did people wake up one day and decide it was morally wrong?
After many years of this practice being deemed through-out the worlds as a normal thing why/when did it stop?
What causes people to be attracted to family? Or to do these unspeakable acts?
Obviously there are those out there that will ask why should i care WHY people do this kinda thing, - well in truth its not about caring per sai , its a need to KNOW why, and they will also jump right in here and try to rip me apart for what i have asked, but before you do please sit back and actually THINK about the many questions posed by myself in this post, and then post your thoughts (intelligently), i am actually curious about what people legitimately think about this subject.
Other Interesting Links
Incest - Profile Of Offenders
Incest II. Incest in Criminology and Genetics
Incest is Halal in Islam
The Father/Daughter Incest Story That Was Too "Real" For Jerry Springer
The following is linked to a video and an in depth documentary on this subject the docu states:
An intense documentary investigating the dark and hidden world of sexual molestation of children by trusted family members or friends.
How did incest begin and is there a more enlightened way to deal with this violation?
Who is responsible and who can effect a cure? What is behind the tradition of incest?
Listen to the testimony of men who have committed this offense against their own children and other family members.
Hear how they do it, why they were unable to stop, and what this behavior does to their families, friends, and the community at large.
Learn if Megans Law and the Residence restrictions protect the children these regulations intended or are they actually making matters worse by creating itinerant predators.
See how law enforcement does its best to keep track of offenders released from prison and what well meaning politicians have done to protect kids and have instead ignored incest and created greater risks.
Watch live treatment sessions with true life molesters conducted by trained professional treatment providers and see for yourself if there is any hope for a person struggling with this condition.
This film examines all these aspects and more so that we can bring this dark subject into the light for a clearer and more rational examination of the rape of our children. Understand that the very taboo nature of this crime helps the offense because when we do not openly discuss it, do not propose any educational models to better inform ourselves and keep ourselves afflicted with guilt and shame which washes over all concerned, perpetrators, victims, and other family members alike, we all help shield and perpetuate the crime.
Come with us into prisons and jails, meet the cops, the criminals, the families, treatment providers, educators, people on the street, politicians and the crew of the film. Everyone
Has their slant on things. Some still have hope some have possible remedies.
We cannot stop looking for better ways to protect our children. There is hope.
worth watching INCEST - A FAMILY TRAGEDY
Disclaimer - I in no way endorse incest in any way shape or form, the purpose of these series is to explore taboo subjects from all angles - even the downright ugly side of our world. I WILL NOT CONDONE downright rudeness, flaming, sick comments or otherwise posts that that would go against the T&C's of this site, any such remarks WILL BE reported straight away, if you do have an insightful comment to make regarding this subject then please feel free to comment and discuss, HOWEVER if you just want to troll, this thread IS NOT the one for you.
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