You can erase one event/thing (not timeline, like the New52) from Batman continuity forever and it is guaranteed to not be later reinserted into continuity. What is it?
Talia drugging Bruce
Bruce hitting his kids
Alfred’s death
A specific character cheating in a romantic relationship
Haley the Dog/Bitewing
Dick being a cop
Victim-blaming Jason for his death
Cassandra's evil arc
Steph's death
Barbara's spinal implant OR Barbara being paralyzed in the first place
I'm really curious about this. If there's no problem, would you explain more?
Sure! Though to be clear, I'm not arguing that Bruce definitely has a mommy kink or anything; but rather that, if he did have one, it's more likely for it to be a mother-related thing rather than a father-related one.
This was a thought that emerged from a conversation with @fractualized, actually. We were talking about how it's funny that there's way more fics with the tag "Daddy Kink" on Ao3 for Bruce, but nowhere near as many "Mommy Kink" ones... and then it turned from irony to "Waaait a minute." Because thinking about it led us both to go back and forth on how Bruce in many ways idealized Thomas and craved his approval, which at first glance would make one go "Well yeah, and that's probably why a daddy kink is more in character for him." However, precisely because of the high pedestal Bruce placed Thomas on, I don't see him ever projecting this aspect on another man; there's the fact Bruce rather wants to emulate his father (think the last part of 1985 by Bo Burnham). This is part of why personally, I see Bruce as focused on service, when it comes to sexual dynamics: providing for the other person. (If he cares about them, that is. But the essay on my reading of Bruce as demisexual will have to wait another day.)
The other part is... well, the fact Bruce is a mommy's boy. His father issues are about craving approval, but his mother issues are about craving comfort. Praise. Love.
Poison Ivy #25
Batman (2016) #45
Batman/Superman (2019) #18
Batman (2016) #18
Justice League (2018) #52
[looks into the camera] And these aren't even all the examples I could give, but you get the point. A need for approval from his father combined with a need for praise and emotional comfort from his mother combines to produce... a person who thinks "I can only get love if I'm good enough, and if I'm good enough I won't be abandoned." It's not terribly hard to imagine how that would translate into Bruce just wanting to give the person he's with the thing they want, becoming focused on service (a lot of the time to his own detriment). And then it's not difficult to imagine how it'd make him feel all sorts of ways to be told by the right person that he's done well.
But guess who Martha is in an alternate world??
Flashpoint Beyond #4
And guess what mad lad, upon finding out his mother is the Joker in an alternate universe, has another giant Joker card made with her likeness to hang next to his regular one? Yes you got it!
DC: The New Golden Age
But I got so long already. That conversation with Frac actually started from her wondering why there's no mommy kink Batjokes fics, considering that Joker is Bruce's literal mother in another world. Alas, I'll put the rest under the cut.
It doesn't help that way before Azzarello made Batman's biggest enemy into his mother figure, probably causing Freud to vibrate in his grave, Morrison was going with their whole chest "Batman is uncomfortable with women because he's got mother issues connected to abandonment", in Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on a Serious Earth. And sadly it didn't make the final cut, but Morrison also wanted Joker dressed like Madonna.
Do you understand now why I had to write that one fic?
It's not just that Bruce might crave praise and validation for his efforts, to feel like he's good enough. He also has a pattern of seeking out emotionally unavailable women, and relationships that might be doomed from the start. It's for many reasons, including his avoidant tendencies, but also it's about getting the love from the right people. From people he has to chase, to work hard to attain their standards; people who are able to beat him and thus who's respect or praise means something. In a way, the more "dark" or emotionally unavailable the individual, the more a thing in Bruce goes "If I got their love it would really mean I'm good enough." In a sad way, this is the core of what makes many people go "Oh this person is such an asshole, but what if they were nice only to me?"
And Joker is the potential epitome of that. He's the ultimate darkness in Bruce's life and the ultimate... unavailable person, for a thousand different reasons. He proclaims love, but it's not a comforting kind; Bruce sees it as a weapon Joker wields against him, and not something real. So to me, it makes sense that Joker offering (motherly) comfort, praise, love-- safety-- would get to Bruce viscerally in a way he might not even be able to understand.
@roszberryberet First of all, I need you to know this is a galaxy-brained take and I am already imagining Bruce going "Your British accent is shit and also you forgot to cut the crust off my cucumber sandwiches" to the 67-year-old male escort he paid a small fortune to.
And secondly, I'm pretty sure Selina's figured out a fair amount of Bruce's "mommy" issues, specifically in Tom King's works though:
Batman/Catwoman #3
Batman (2016) #32
Let's just say Selina calling Bruce "my poor boy" happens multiple times... with some interesting vibes (and I've noticed because I'm sooo normal about it).
oh he definitely makes them do the accent. He's dismissed several without gratification for being too awful at it, though he did pay their fees so they weren't too pressed.
YOU'RE RIGHT I forgot she does call him her boy a few times. But I do wish we'd see her lean into it a little more explicitly! But I think that's too much for the official comics haha.
Also
you are so right, ra's is a great subject for a fic of this nature. Rubbing my hands together like a little raccoon in a puddle
As for Bruce and Alfred I've not seen it often and it's not explicitly my thing (I'm more into how their relationship bleeds into Bruce's sex life with other people) but uhhhhh Pennywayne?? I feel like all our options sound bad djdnsnsn
I'm really curious about this. If there's no problem, would you explain more?
Sure! Though to be clear, I'm not arguing that Bruce definitely has a mommy kink or anything; but rather that, if he did have one, it's more likely for it to be a mother-related thing rather than a father-related one.
This was a thought that emerged from a conversation with @fractualized, actually. We were talking about how it's funny that there's way more fics with the tag "Daddy Kink" on Ao3 for Bruce, but nowhere near as many "Mommy Kink" ones... and then it turned from irony to "Waaait a minute." Because thinking about it led us both to go back and forth on how Bruce in many ways idealized Thomas and craved his approval, which at first glance would make one go "Well yeah, and that's probably why a daddy kink is more in character for him." However, precisely because of the high pedestal Bruce placed Thomas on, I don't see him ever projecting this aspect on another man; there's the fact Bruce rather wants to emulate his father (think the last part of 1985 by Bo Burnham). This is part of why personally, I see Bruce as focused on service, when it comes to sexual dynamics: providing for the other person. (If he cares about them, that is. But the essay on my reading of Bruce as demisexual will have to wait another day.)
The other part is... well, the fact Bruce is a mommy's boy. His father issues are about craving approval, but his mother issues are about craving comfort. Praise. Love.
Poison Ivy #25
Batman (2016) #45
Batman/Superman (2019) #18
Batman (2016) #18
Justice League (2018) #52
[looks into the camera] And these aren't even all the examples I could give, but you get the point. A need for approval from his father combined with a need for praise and emotional comfort from his mother combines to produce... a person who thinks "I can only get love if I'm good enough, and if I'm good enough I won't be abandoned." It's not terribly hard to imagine how that would translate into Bruce just wanting to give the person he's with the thing they want, becoming focused on service (a lot of the time to his own detriment). And then it's not difficult to imagine how it'd make him feel all sorts of ways to be told by the right person that he's done well.
But guess who Martha is in an alternate world??
Flashpoint Beyond #4
And guess what mad lad, upon finding out his mother is the Joker in an alternate universe, has another giant Joker card made with her likeness to hang next to his regular one? Yes you got it!
DC: The New Golden Age
But I got so long already. That conversation with Frac actually started from her wondering why there's no mommy kink Batjokes fics, considering that Joker is Bruce's literal mother in another world. Alas, I'll put the rest under the cut.
It doesn't help that way before Azzarello made Batman's biggest enemy into his mother figure, probably causing Freud to vibrate in his grave, Morrison was going with their whole chest "Batman is uncomfortable with women because he's got mother issues connected to abandonment", in Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on a Serious Earth. And sadly it didn't make the final cut, but Morrison also wanted Joker dressed like Madonna.
Do you understand now why I had to write that one fic?
It's not just that Bruce might crave praise and validation for his efforts, to feel like he's good enough. He also has a pattern of seeking out emotionally unavailable women, and relationships that might be doomed from the start. It's for many reasons, including his avoidant tendencies, but also it's about getting the love from the right people. From people he has to chase, to work hard to attain their standards; people who are able to beat him and thus who's respect or praise means something. In a way, the more "dark" or emotionally unavailable the individual, the more a thing in Bruce goes "If I got their love it would really mean I'm good enough." In a sad way, this is the core of what makes many people go "Oh this person is such an asshole, but what if they were nice only to me?"
And Joker is the potential epitome of that. He's the ultimate darkness in Bruce's life and the ultimate... unavailable person, for a thousand different reasons. He proclaims love, but it's not a comforting kind; Bruce sees it as a weapon Joker wields against him, and not something real. So to me, it makes sense that Joker offering (motherly) comfort, praise, love-- safety-- would get to Bruce viscerally in a way he might not even be able to understand.
You know what I'm gonna give Harley/joker fans who don't read the comics a pass bc if your sole exposure to them is Lego games and official merchandise you have fuck all idea what's up with them
[ID: A multi panel sequence of Bruce Wayne as a child on Halloween. He's dressed up in a Mask of Zorro costume and is excitedly running down the stairs while holding two swords, calling out for his mother happily. He tells her that he's ready to go trick or treating. Martha Wayne has her hand on his shoulder and is smiling as she tells him, "your costume looks great!" Bruce replies, "Thanks, I made it myself. Alfred sorta helped. Is dad home yet?" Martha draws her hand back hesitantly and says his name. Bruce already knows that that means there's bad news. He tells her, "don't tell me," before she continues and says his father called. Bruce has his head down, angrily finishing her sentence, "he's gotta work late!" He looks out the window as if his father will appear and says, "It's not fair! He promised he would take me trick or treating!' Martha soothes that she knows as Bruce repeats, "he promised," to himself disappointedly. She tells him, "But there was an emergency," which makes Bruce snap, "There's always some emergency!"
Bruce continues to stand in front of the window as Martha looks at him. Bruce announces, "I'm gonna wait for him. Even if it takes all night!" as he tensely clenches the handle of his sword. Martha reaches out for him sadly and suggests, "Bruce, I could take you out myself. Or, we can call some of the other children at school and go out with them." Bruce, as an adult, somberly says off panel that, "she doesn't know..." as his kid self stares out the window still. His hat casting a small shadow on his face as he tells her, "There are no other kids to call. I have no friends at school." Martha says his name again but doesn't know how to comfort him. Instead, she just silently places a hand on his shoulder. We see a silhouette from far away of her standing next to him as Bruce waits for his father to eventually come home. END ID]
[ID: the original post's tags. They been edited some for clarification. They read: "#hey do you ever think about Bruce's childhood and feel your chest hurt? Like even before the murders. Just how lonely he was as a boy, and how that loneliness only grew after watching his entire life and people he had be ripped away from him. Sure he had Alfred, but his entire life and world was contained to that big scary house that was suddenly so much emptier. The constant reminders and seeing what was once there and triggering it again and again and again ontop of PTSD and OCD...
#Also Martha? Love her. He's the biggest mama's boy you cant change my mind. <- again using this tag because if Thomas worked a lot and Bruce obviously didn't have friends to go out with then the only person he ever actually talked to and interacted with was his mother and Alfred. So the man hired to care about you and the woman who gave birth to you. Thus that attachment being stronger. But also the 'people have to be trapped to want to be around me' mindset... a man hired to be your friend and take care of you... and your own parents not wanting to or avoiding that responsibility and involvement but they're the only people you consistently have... Yeah." END ID]
So I picked up a copy of Batman Masterpieces: Portraits of the Dark Knight and His World, understanding it collects the images and text from the Fleer Master Series card set from 1996. As a bonus, it includes each initial painting idea submitted to the artist and the artist's commentary on the final product.
What I didn't know until I had the book in my hands is that this card set told a story, one about the (seeming) death of Batman. And is there batjokes in it? Of course there is like 95% of my posts are batjokes related what else would I be doing here
(The book as a whole is very enjoyable outside that, of course.)
So for one thing, while technically the first image of the book is Batman swinging through Gotham, repeated mention is made of how the card set is bookended with a picture of Joker's face at the start and Batman's face at the end.
[art by Scott Hampton]
The story opens with Joker's escape from Arkham. Not long after, Batman's death is announced with this image:
[art by Scott Hampton]
Afterwards, for the most part, the cards fall into a few categories:
Various people in Gotham reminiscing about Batman's role and reputation
Alfred, Dick, and Tim setting aside their mourning to review possible suspects
Joker thinking up possible answers
Other rogues explaining their own theories
The resolution of the mystery
One of my favorite images is of Scarecrow. I just love his demeanor and his skull spraycan.
[art by Dermot Power]
Took me a few moments to catch the details in this one of Croc.
[art by Dermot Power]
But anyhow, the thing with Joker's part in this tale is that he naturally cannot accept that he wasn't the murderer, even though he can't remember doing it.
[art by Carl Critchlow]
[art by Carl Critchlow]
He can't convince himself that other rogues managed to murder Batman, though, starting with Catwoman.
[art by Dermot Power]
As you can see, the whiskers are there, so it looks cool, albeit upsetting.
Two-Face is another prime suspect-- until Joker realizes Harvey is still in Arkham.
[art by Dermot Power]
I thought the text for this one was interesting, if only because I'd say that nowadays variant covers serve the function of letting artists run with ideas that don't necessarily show up in stories.
This Talia one is fun given that the framing for this portion of cards is that they're from Joker's POV.
[art by Dermot Power]
The idea of a woman loving a flying rodent is disgusting! What would so do? Hold him dramatically? And lovingly? And romantically? And stare deep into his broody eyes...
After his review of suspects (including Poison Ivy) yields nothing, Joker starts developing wild theories about how maybe he is the Batman's killer after all.
[art by Carl Critchlow]
The scenarios often take after known elseworlds like Gotham By Gaslight and Bloodstorm. But I'm highlighting this one, based on Holy Terror (which I'm pretty sure Joker doesn't actually appear in).
[art by Duncan Fegredo]
Some scenarios are from non-DC stories, like this Frankenstein painting, which may be my favorite of the book.
[art by Duncan Fegredo]
Finally, Joker runs out of ideas and breaks. If he didn't kill Bats, then Bats cannot be dead! And then he hears that the police have recovered Batman's body and they've already interred it in a special memorial crypt. Joker must go see the proof for himself.
And gasp!
[art by Scott Hampton]
Happy clown. :) But gasp again! That shadow to the right?!
That's right! Batman is alive! And he promptly punches Joker in the face.
[art by Scott Hampton]
"Nothing could flush my nemesis from hiding except for himself. And his undying love obsession with me."
So yeah. Batman faked his death explicitly to trap Joker. Like I guess it's a strategy worth trying for the single time it could work, but I feel like I'd save it for a moment of urgency. In the story as described, it doesn't appear that Joker had gotten up to much of anything by the time Batman "died."
And, as noted, Bruce's family completely believed he was dead. I mean, probably only for a matter of hours, but– Wait, nope, an early card notes that the batsignal went unanswered for three nights.
I don't know how many comics there may be about members of the batfam trying to kill this man, but I'm going to guess not enough.