WHO IS THE COOLEST GUARDIAN BRACKET 2
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pitch STILL doesnt go here (results)
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@rotg-goc-headcanons
WHO IS THE COOLEST GUARDIAN BRACKET 2
mama goose (katherine)
mama nature
ombric?? is this a real guy?
nighted light
mama mim (owes me child support)
pitch STILL doesnt go here (results)
poll time
who is the coolest guardian?
Jack Frost
Northalas ST Nick
Sandy Mandy
Tooth
bnuuy
pitch doesnt even GO here (RESULTS)
āThey found Bigfoot hair samples and dna in Michigan!ā
But Phil the yeti was actually what they saw. They found Philās hair samples and dna. Why can people see Phil and take a photo of him? Do the yeti double as Bigfoot? If Phil, a yeti from the North Pole, was believed in, but as Bigfoot, does that mean that belief works for a general belief of a certain type of thing? How does belief operate and what does it mean to be believed in?
What is gonna happen when they test that dna and those hair samples? What would happen if they wanted more or to experiment on the organism from where they came from?
ok, I have a question about ROTG. since someone asked about the differences between nightlight and Jack. Whatās the difference between the other guardians from GOC & ROTG? because I think I remember scrolling on your blog and you said Tooth & Toothania were different, along with Bunny & Bunnymund (I think it was mostly their appearance & personality). Is the Boogieman all that different too between GOC & ROTG?
How big of a difference there is depends on the character I think. Take North for example, his main differences can be chalked up to him being older. ROTG North feels like he could be a more mature GOC North. But Tooth feels extremely different, to the point where she doesn't feel like the same character at all to me, beyond perhaps a vaguely similar concept.
This is very personalised to my takes, and other GOC enjoyers will probably feel differently, but here's an attempt at breaking down the main differences:
NORTH
Full Name, Nicholas St. North. Referred to as North in both GOC and ROTG with the occaisional use of Nicholas in GOC.
Both versions weild swords and infuse their inventions with magic.
In the books North is young (the author changed this on a whim though, so take that with a pinch of salt), and implied to have been a bit of a menace but not entirely immoral as his crimes often focussed more on theft from the rich & battling already violent groups.
His book sends him on a bit of a journey personality wise & forces him to be vulnerable (something he clearly struggles with, despite him getting severely injured nearly every book). He's still bold and overconfident, but we get to see more of his insecurity & his struggles with finding who he is when he's allowed to be vulnerable.
I think the main difference is that ROTG North acts more as a mentor figure, whereas GOC North is the mentee. With a side of insecurity (mostly in the first book, while he's recovering from a wound), and a difficulty in expressing softer feelings that's not present in ROTG North, who is unashamed of showing his softer side.
He still teases Bunny in the books, is loud and outspoken, constantly challenging himself to build bigger and better things. He's still fairly blunt, and definitely kind.
BUNNY
Full Name, E. Aster Bunnymund, referred to as Bunny in ROTG but largely known as Bunnymund with intermittent use of Bunny in GOC.
GOC Bunnymund uses the egg relic staff (containing the light of creation) as well as swords/sabres. GOC Bunnymund has a robotic army of eggs that he created that fights with him. ROTG Bunny's eggs are magical/organic/floral and he fights with boomerangs and egg grenades.
GOC Bunny is wildly different to ROTG Bunny, but interestingly ROTG implies that they are the same person - during the scene where Jack discovers that he's amnesiac we get this exchange:
This scene is essentially poking fun at how different the two Bunny's are. ROTG Bunny is embarassed by the memory of his original GOC clothing and mannerisms. But it's also how ROTG is choosing to explain why the GOC Bunny and ROTG Bunny are so different - ROTG Bunny assimilated with human culture (Australian specifically) after the events of GOC and has had a bit of a personalilty shift due to that.
GOC Bunny was incredibly Autisitic coded - obsessed with anything egg shaped & owning an extensive egg collection, unable to grasp sarcasm or jokes, struggled to communicate or connect with others, often very tech-minded (this is just a trope tbh) & able to hyper-focus on one task.
ROTG Bunny... has elements of this, he's still very interested and proud of his eggs. But he's now able to grasp jokes & sarcasm & even return them. His entire manner of speech has changed from very formal to very casual. He's a lot angrier and more emotional. He finds connecting to others a lot easier seeing as he manages with Jack and Sophie just fine.
Although, I honestly think this is fine & appropriate development for his character. In GOC he's separated himself from all other lifeforms for presumably thousands if not millions of years (oh, he can time travel in the books fyi). I think it's reasonable that he's grown more comfortable with socialising over the years & has adopted the customs of those around him. Doesn't stop him from being wildly different GOC vs. ROTG but there you go.
In GOC his race (Pookas) also process chocolate as a sort of magical drug - so when he eats chocolate he becomes much more impulsive, angrier, more warrior-like in general and will also randomly grow new appendages (he has six arms at one point in the book). So I think it's also reasonable to assume that ROTG Bunny is just eating more chocolate or has grown more resistent to it & is just in a consistent state of being slightly high.
TOOTH
Full Name, Toothiana, referred to exclusively as Tooth in ROTG but often known as Toothiana in GOC.
She uses twin sabres in GOC, in ROTG she uses her wings as swords. GOC Toothiana is able to split herself into many smaller versions of herself, forming a hivemind, while ROTG Tooth seems disconnected from her fairy lookalikes.
GOC Tooth is also incredibly different to her ROTG counterpart. For starters she's got no interest in romance & acts more as a mother to the younger characters including Nightlight (Jack). She's also very subdued compared to ROTG Tooth, often a calm presence or at least a determined quiet one.
She's still kind and supportive of others, GOC Tooth came up with tooth collecting as a way to connect to and play with the other children in her village after the adults tried to traffic her (yes, it's dark, no, the author doesn't acknowledge that). Both Tooth's show an animalistic side, both move a little more like animals than people, but GOC Tooth also hisses or snarls I believe.
Unfortunately I don't have much more to say for Tooth aside from the obvious appearance differences (I believe she's wearing face paints rather than being that pale naturally as she's the biological daughter of Indian/Pakistani parents).
GOC Tooth doesn't get a lot of time to shine - she's only really introduced to us properly halfway through the third book & then barely does anything in books 4 & 5, so while North was able to take the attention of books 1 & 2, and Bunny took half of book 2 & developed his relationships across book 3... Tooth was presented as a bit of a fairytale in her own book, with Mr. Qwerty telling her story for her.
SANDY
Full Name, Sanderson Mansnoozie, refferred to as Sandy often in both.
ROTG Sandy most often uses dreamsand whips, GOC Sandy is rarely depicted with a weapon but also uses whips and has been depicted with a staff.
GOC Sandy gets more lore than ROTG Sandy. GOC Sandy is able to speak but often chooses to remain quiet. He was close friends with Mother Nature who is the person who has heard him speak the most. GOC Sandy is fuelled more by regret than anything as he feels responsible for creating the dream that the Nightmares used to turn Pitch who then genocided the whole galaxy.
GOC Sandy and ROTG Sandy are both kind and quiet and a little mysterious. ROTG Sandy has a stronger playful streak than GOC Sandy who is very remorseful and serious. GOC Sandy also initially chose to work alone without the Guardians whereas ROTG Sandy feels much more like a team player.
GOC Sandy was the last to be introduced so he got very little screentime compared to Bunny and North, but he's also a quiet character so he has less to say.
PITCH
Full Name, Kozmotis Pitchiner, referred to exclusively as Pitch/Pitch Black in ROTG while often known as Pitch in GOC.
GOC Pitch and ROTG Pitch are entirely different beasts. The only similarities is their name, the fact they both lead the Nightmares against the Guardians and both attempt to recruit Nightlight/Jack into their fold.
I think ROTG Pitch also likely shares a similar backstory to GOC Pitch - trusted Generals who lost their daughter & wife & were eventually possessed by the fearlings/nightmares who then turned coats and fought against the Golden Age of the Galaxy.
ROTG Pitch however is a great deal more sympathetic than GOC Pitch. GOC Pitch's only redeeming point is that he is literally out of his mind & Nightlight & Mother Nature both seek to release him from his possession so he may die as a human.
Aside from that, GOC Pitch killed almost the entire galaxy as far as we know with the survivors either so far away as to be unknowable, or hiding on Earth. Bunny's species were wiped out of existence by Pitch, with only Bunny surviving to hide one of Tsar Lunar's relics. The Man in the Moon is the last of his line with both his parents murdered by Pitch personally. The Lunar Lamas are the only other survivors we know of I think, and they're hiding on Mt. Everest somewhere.
GOC Pitch's goal is to destroy anything good so that he can rule as the Nightmare King. He only attempts to recruit Katherine and Nightlight as the remains of the General still seek his daughter & he sees her in both of them. He ahs trappped both Katherine and Nightlight in solitary confinement for a number of days or months in an effort to turn them to his cause.
He has also kidnapped children as leverage against the Guardians, nearly killed North twice, actually killed Ombric (North's mentor) twice kind of (he got better), tortured and mutilated his own people (Blandim and the Monkey King)...
Essentially GOC Pitch is irredeemable & inhuman.
ROTG Pitch is much different & seems to only seek to be feared, not to destroy all kindness in the world. I question whether his actions in Antarctica were anything more than manipulation, but I do think he wanted Jack to side with him regardless of what that would look like (remember that he was emotionally/verbally/physically antagonistic towards Jack when in his lair, and purposefully isolated Jack from his support group). His reaction to the children's lack of belief in him at the end also shows he has emotions beyond rage and manipulation.
So while I still think ROTG Pitch is manipulative and cruel, I also think he is someone with emotions and fears and a possibility of being redeemed (not that I think he'd ever take it, but that's another discussion). GOC Pitch is just a vessel for the fearlings to cause destruction.
JACK/NIGHTLIGHT
For completeness sakes I'm including Jack/Nightlight.
Full Name, Jackson Overland Frost/Nightlight, only referred to as Jack Frost in ROTG but known as Nightlight, Jackson Overland Frost and Jack Frost in GOC.
Nightlight is able to fly and glow brighter or dimmer as he wishes, he is also able to create solid light that others can touch. Nightlight wields a spear/staff or a dagger. GOC Jack Frost is able to change his age at will, fly, create snow and frost. He wields a staff that can shapeshift as needed, notably changing into a bow and arrow. ROTG Jack exclusively uses a blunt staff and can fly and create frost and snow, as well as animate frost drawings.
Nightlight is incredibly quiet, barely ever speaking. He is also not particularly playful or mischievous despite a few offhand mentions of games he plays in book 5 (which is dubious canon to me). He is more comforting than fun.
Nightlight also seems to struggle to connect with people, especially anyone who isn't a direct comfort person for him - Katherine is his lifeline for a lot of the books, as is his moonbeam companion. Jack also seems to struggle to connect with others, and also struggles to let down his guard, but he manages it with North a little better than Nightlight I think (their situations are different though as Jack does get a father figure in North who is excellent at understanding him & how to push him without pushing him away, wheras Nightlight only really wants to be around Katherine who is roughly the same age as him & while she has a unique understanding of him she isn't a security blanket in the same way North is for Jack).
He is however very emotional as we see when it's his POV, especially when Katherine (his bff/romance) goes missing or is in danger. Anxiety is also a big thing for him as he worries over what to tell Katherine and what not to tell her.
Other than general similarities in story ("drowns" to save a sibling, loses memory, goes missing alone for years, joins Gaurdians to fight Pitch) Jack and Nightlight are fairly different characters - on par with Tooth & Bunny's differences from GOC to ROTG.
-
I definitely forgot some stuff and probably got some stuff wrong as I'm not near my books rn but hopefully other GOC enjoyers can correct me in the notes!
Hope this was interesting if not helpful! Thanks for the ask!
Maps of Burgess from Rise of the Guardians
via Peter Maynez (first image) and the ROTG: Creating an Epic documentary (second and third images), which was included on the 'Holiday' edition of the DVD/Blu-ray.
My map of Burgess - now with labels! (Shop names with "?" are based on this concept art by Woonyoung Jung because they aren't fully visible in RotG. See how many RotG crew names you can spot!)
Thank you to @revive-the-fandom who suggested I post this - I suggest you check out their (digitally-redrawn!) map of Burgess as well. It's much neater and has more scenes!
Here's the screenshot map overlaid on Peter Maynez' concept art map of Burgess:
OK. Question. Since, like, the guardians disappear if theyāre not believed in. Can they like, come back, like sandy? Itās scary thinking of the others disappearing but like, thatās how itād work right? OR, hypothetical, can they die? Like, if Jack ādiesā from like a magical wound would he be reincarnated (since he was a human!) or would his āspiritā (heās the winter spirit) come back? This also applies to the other guardians, especially Santa, Bunny (ik heās an alien so Iām really interested in how that would work) & Toothania since Sandy is a star. Sorry if this makes no sense but it just popped up in my head and I thought youād be the best person to ask.
Good question! Like most questions about rotg there isn't a clearly defined answer but I can give you my opinion & what is evidenced in the film.
Firstly, I'd question what actually happens when the Guardians lose believers - Pitch claims that they "go away" which is wonderfully vague and could honestly mean anything. But we also don't actually ever see any of the Guardians reach the point where there are no more believers, and there are no anecdotes supplied to give us context.
The effects (of a lack of believers) that we see are generally a weakening of magical abilities, as well as a greyed appearance. Tooth loses her ability to fly, Bunny becomes a regular rabbit (ish), and North starts to show weakness (age).
Which is very odd when including/building from GoC lore as Bunny was never a regular rabbit, and Tooth's feathers/wings are due to her being a hybrid. North makes sense, he was a human whose only true benefit from becoming a Guardian was the extended lifespan, which may not have even been from the Guardianship but just the magic he learnt from Ombric. Also Bunny, Tooth and Sandy were already immortal beings so far as I'm aware, so they shouldn't have been weakened so badly.
(sidebar: Sandy's not a star but a star pilot. GoC gets very poetic with its storytelling, and comets being stars that move is one of those things. Sandy's a star pilot because he piloted a comet (star) and guided it across the galaxy. but that's very minor & we still have no clue how he came into being or his species (there are others) or anything much about him to be honest!)
So, technically for all we know the Guardian's don't die or vanish when they lose believers.
If we remove the GoC lore then it's very likely that they just lose their magic and return to being mundane mortal creatures.
If we include GoC lore then it's more likely that they become the opposite of what their believers thought - boring, uninspiring, a reflection of their belief that there's nothing magical in the world.
(I think this is the one thing I'd cut from Rotg - there's no reason for Bunny to get "cute". It fucks with my GoC lore and I don't like that.)
Secondly, Sandy's "death" is not the result of a lack of believers, it's a physical attack on his body. The result of which is also incredibly vague. We don't really know what happened to him to be honest.
It's sort of implied that he's absorbed into Pitch's nightmare sand along with all his dreamsand. And then is extracted when the children's belief (??) purifies the nightmare sand.
But interestingly the nightmare sand actually originates as dreamsand, so Sandy is shot by, corrupted by, and absorbed by a slightly altered version of his own physical matter...
So Sandy (or his consciousness) may not be so much dead as dormant? He may exist within his dreamsand-turned-nightmare entirely because it is/was a part of him. Add in GoC lore & all the dreamsand is actually a product of a centuries (?) long coma and the dreams that Sandy himself dreamed (I think, correct me if I'm wrong!).
I don't think that Sandy actually died, I think he existed within the sand & was able to reemerge when there was enough dreamsand to sustain him. This could reflect the lack of lore surrounding how or what he truly is - he could be a dream personified.
So to properly answer your questions -
I think that Sandy was a very unique case caused entirely by the specific set of circumstances that Rotg presented.
I don't think the Guardians would disappear or die if they lost believers (not at first anyway), and I do think they could regain/resurrect their Guardianship if they lost their believers.
I don't think they could be resurrected should they die.
I do think there would be different effects on the Guardians due to their origins - North was a human so would begin to age if he lost his Guardianship, Tooth was a hybrid with possible immortality, Bunny is an immortal alien as is Sandy and Manny, so it's likely that they would suffer the loss of any additional magics. For all of them they'd likely also suffer some general debuffs from a failure to maintain their oath.
but a lot of these are personal opinion/interpretation so take with a pinch of salt! I'm very flattered that you thought I was the best person to ask & hope I answered your questions :P
Some Jack Frost headcannons!
Remember, these have been conjured up in my own brain, so itās totally fine if you believe something else!!
(Most of these are all based around how touch starved he is, lol)
*So, we all know he canāt touch or interact with anyone/anything really, except the snow. I feel like that might have something to do with why heās so chaotic sometimes (blizzard of 68, ahem). Like, thats one of the ONLY things he can mess around with, heās bound to whack a few kids in the face with it, right?
*Like Iāve said before, in my mind, heās so very touch-starved. But not necessarily that heād actively seek out touch..? I think that first night he wanted someone not to walk through him, to brush shoulders with someone, etc. Now he still wants that, but itās been several hundred years so heās kinda just pushed those feelings away.
*We see at the Pole when the Yetiās come up behind him, he jumps and turns around, frightened and scared. Heās obviously not used to it.
*But I donāt think heād be a pushover and let you/anyone touch him in places he doesnāt like, he still has boundaries, even if heās a little unsure how to bring them up. We see that when Tooth is looking and poking around his mouth, he was making noises and North had to tell her to leave him alone. Heās so unused to touch, he doesnāt even know how to tell someone not to touch him.
*When he pretends to fall off the sleigh to scare Bunny, itās obviously just him being silly to scare him because if you look closely, he looks at him with a grin before hopping on the edge. And when heās laying on the foot thing looking up at him with a grin, I know his heart is secretly racing, wanting connection with anyone.
*I want to see him try a soda or minty toothpaste or something. I feel like it would be that one meme of a guy chugging soda and he slams his face into a garage door.
Thinking about that damn matryoshka North made for Jack again
Friendly reminder also that there are only 2 opportunities for North to make that doll - at every other point he's either fighting, on the move, or too uninformed to know to make the doll (he defo gets the idea when taking Jack to his office):
After Sandy's death
2. After Jack's "betrayal"
and both are incredibly delicious.
either, he's sat in the pole making the doll just minutes/hours after Sandy has died and Jack has become their pillar of hope. or he's whittling away at it after Jack, their only hope, has betrayed them and left them to die.
I know what I think but Iām interested in otherās opinion:
Is Rise Of The Guardians a Christmas or Easter movie?
Christmas
Easter
Omg wait tell me more about the Tooth Palaceās cleaning room. They clean the teeth after receiving them??
"Oh, yes! We can't have the teeth rotting while in our care. It's not just collecting the teeth, you know. There are multiple departments to my operations."
"Such as building and maintaining the spires, cleaning unkempt teeth, maintaining the coin dispensers, security patrols of PunJam Hy Loo. A small kitchen and housekeeping rotation, though that's more of a voluntary job."
Jack's sparkle powers & rotg's continuity issues
commenting on some replies from a previous post
I understand that Jack's sparkle move is not actually sparkles.
It's never really explained what it is, though tbf. It could be a bolt of ice or frost, but I prefer the idea that he's performing a sort of superfreeze move that's turning all the water in the air around him/in a direction into ice crystals,
which is why the sand explodes almost from the inside out, and curving along the arc, it's got more water in it (presumably bc the nightmares are living, breathing, creatures) than the surrounding air.
hence.. sparkle powers.
I don't think it's a "basic" or "simple" move that just everyone can do.
A big part of why I love the idea that he's a civilian is because it pulls back from the prodigy archetype.
There's not a lot of reason for Jack to be a prodigy either. He's the audience surrogate, the guy who needs things explained because the audience doesn't know either. His background is meant to show his isolation, set up his motivation, and having him be a prodigy would raise questions that the movie doesn't have time to answer - why is he a prodigy, who trained him, why couldn't he just hang out with this trainer who could see him?
(the idea that there's this host of other spirits available to talk to is also complete fanon, and no the Rufftoon Comics don't count, neither do the GoC books. There is canonically 2 known spirits outside of the Guardians and Jack - the Leprechaun, and the Groundhog.)
It also just makes him more sympathetic, and builds Pitch up as dangerous. A civilian vs. the Joker is more frightening than Batman vs. the Joker.
Jack's a bad fighter. He lowers his guard too readily, he rushes in without a plan, he freezes up, his moves are predictable and limited.
And while that might be my opinion, I think it is backed up by the juxtaposition of the Guardians to Jack in just about every fight. He's shit scared, frozen up, caught in a bad position and needing a rescue - while they're moving perfectly in synch, reading each others minds, picking up each others slack (including Jack's most of the time). If nothing else then I think the sheer confidence and ease they show in every fight proves that Jack is subpar.
The final fight still has Jack make multiple mistakes that he needs rescuing from - mistakes that build tension, that wouldn't exist if he was already a good fighter.
(bonus point) Jack doesn't freeze because someone else helped him, he freezes because he's shocked and scared.
This one I'm not actually willing to put up for debate, lmao sorry. He sees an attack coming that he doesn't expect/can't dodge, he freezes and then he is saved by Tooth and Sandy.
I am willing to change my statement from "this is a continuity error" to "I wish this was a continuity error" because, if it's not a simple continuity error, it's lack luster writing.
I feel it worked better as a new power discovery, because there was more theming to suggest that course of action. There was a significant amount of screen time dedicated to showing Jack's powers as proximity based (prior to the reveal). The opening scene in particular was quite poignant,
and as I said in the previous post, theres a lot of moments where Jack is shown to touch his staff, or his hand or even use his breath to cast his powers onto a surface,
it just felt very intentional to me. It would be a shame if it wasn't, all for the sake of two blink and you'll miss it scenes?
Jack's powers being limited to proximity based created an interesting weakness, an opportunity to power crawl, and a visual comment on his desire to touch all in one. Yet in two throw away scenes - that are never mentioned again, nor have any attention dedicated to them - that is all lost?
plus I think it weakens the reveal scene iteself. If it's a simple power up, instead of a new development, then... Jack's not gaining a new perspective in battle (ranged attacks), and he's not confronting his relationship with touch (by withdrawing from it, taking the focus off of it, being able to survive without it).
All Jack gains from a power up is confidence. Which he gets with a new development anyway.
So, maybe it wasn't a continuity issue, but I sure hope it was.
i really like this exploration and look into his powers. i do agree he's very untrained, et cetera. i suppose i have only like two real potential thoughts on all of this overall
(and this is for merely my sake and not something i like need OP or anyone to try and answer/debate with me. and this isnt me like attacking the argument OP is making just like vibing and thinking further on it for my benefit solely. it just wont fit in the tags lmao)
the main being the ranged... i could see this less as continuity issue and more they just dropped the ball in certain aspects of showing. the way i've always personally read it is that most guardians also don't really need anything physical per se to channel their more magical abilities (or outright magic). but jack's staff acts a lot like, well-- a staff like you might find in a lot of fantasy worlds for magic users: which in these stories, isnt the source of magic but rather helps channel it in more manageable ways.
even if it is the sole source, i could see the magic perhaps just being easier to manipulate and maintain via physical touch; so he can do ranged but it's a more concentrated effort on his part. especially if it's not something he needs to utilize often. and his little ranged smack to another guardian & the nightmares in small scale is kind of the equivalent of dropping ice cubes down someones shirt; vs what he did in the battle with pitch...
like others, i read his shocked reaction to be that he's surprised he could be that powerful. and if anything i read like his little dart like is meant to be the foreshadowing and in most movies and to the average audience member is the foreshadowing of said ranged abilities?
(especially when you also remember pitch's like attempts to recruit jack isn't solely based around tempting him with memories. pitch does point out they could be a very powerful combo; and iirc implies the idea of jack being held back in ways? it's been a hot minute since i've watched the movie so admittedly i can't remember everything....)
but i do agree i like that him being a "civilian" as OP puts it, because it does pull back from the ace/prodigy archetype. he is as much audience insert as like, jamie, who would in most cases probably be the actual MC. though it being jack it's that fine line to balance: yes he's had 300 years to get good at his craft; but he's spent those 300 fucking off to make small scale silly stuff. which we are continuously reminded of, even by other guardians; things that make kids smile and entertain him.
it could also be that he needs his staff still because while he's skilled with it, he just hasn't taken the time to properly learn how to channel his abilities without it. if anything if you look at it that way i personally think it really adds to that 'civilian' thing: it shows that he's spent the last 300 years just fucking around. he isn't as skilled as the others. he needs his staff in order to properly channel his powers because he's never tried not to or has never seriously dedicated the time to learning.
there is a difference between not relaying certain information effectively in the constraints of a movie vs genuine continuity errors.
(not that OP is making that error or anything close, just more of @ me and in general-- it's important to remember. all art mediums have their limitations and when you have to prioritize a lot of moving parts; you sometimes have to let the ball drop in areas as to not drop everything).
EDIT: there are parts that were in my tags originally but i decided to just them here so hence why more informal/look funny bc im lazy so just copy pasted them lmao
the tags i originally had added:
#(you can only foreshadow so much before you're just no longer foreshadowing)#(and just doing the thing)#(and foreshadowing is often very brief blink and you miss it moments in most movies)#(and most media really)#(so i dont even think thats out of the norm for like movies in general)#(now individual tastes vary ofc)#(but in general that read to me as very standard foreshadowing)#(plus i think you at that point also need to apply it to others)#(like the scythe pitch made or sandys whips)#(like if you want it to be a continuity thing)#(and all media relies on ofc tropes and such to help inform)#(and blah blah blah so)#(idk i feel like the guy with ice powers in a fantasy movie having a big strong ranged ice attack as he grows)#(character wise)#(isnt like that big of a leap for the average person to make which is what genres rely on)#(so they dont have to hand hold you thru everything)#(usually)
from here is just me rambling a lil about the books and not really related much to the above points
I hope you don't mind me chiming in again, not debating but agreeing mostly?
I think sparkles being foreshadowing is a pretty good read, and one I had kinda forgotten about tbh. I'm mostly just sore that my preferred interpretation is skimped over in favor of foreshadowing.
also love love love the idea that the reason Jack doesn't have much fighting know-how is because he was too busy playing! Like, not every person is going to get magic and immediately learn to fight with it? There are other applications, like art!!
that feels like a more developed, tricker ability than most others he uses. Which is super interesting considering that he did have 300 years to develop his powers, and this is his most complex move? He's a little artist!!
but, yeah, while I'm on this tangent - why is fighting considered the only route that a person with magic can go down? What about the creatives, entertainers, bakers, builders, lawmen, conservationists, carers, healers, etc. etc. ?? Not everyone who has magic is necessarily a fighter.
So Jack not knowing how to fight, even after 300 years to learn, doesn't seem that weird to me. He was doing other things, perhaps learning how to read, or speak different languages, or make art - probably all self taught too, which is infinitely harder.
I think Jack's one of those people who is super intelligent, but never really shows it. Partly bc it means they get given more work, and partly bc it's not necessarily a relevant skill. For all we know, Jack's learned 7 different languages, but we don't ge the opportunity to see that.
also, Jack didn't necessarily have anyone to fight with, so it may have been an irrelevant skill for those 300 years. Learning to read or fly were probably better uses of his time.
and I do very much agree that his staff is merely a channel for him, considering they included an entire subplot about it lmao.
in rotg when Pitch is persuading Jack to join him, after telling him that cold and dark go together, Jack ultimately refuses and begins to walk away. Pitch then reveals that he had Babytooth and offers a trade: BabyTooth for Jack's staff. He says "The staff, Jack! You have a bad habit of interfering." They make the trade and Pitch confidently snaps it after Babytooth pokes him. This, with the statement about the staff implies that Pitch knows it holds Jack's powers. Jack seems surprised that it physically hurt when the staff broke or when he couldn't fly and use ice powers to get out of the cavern. He couldn't get out until he fixed his staff. I'm wondering... how did Pitch know Jack's staff would hinder him like that? How did he know the staff had the power? North's swords don't have the same properties, taking Bunny's boomerangs would have the same effect (or would they?). Or is it just plot armor? What do you think?
oooo! i love rotg questions!
I don't think it's plot armour at all! I think it's established very early on as a weakness of Jack's, but also as a symbol of his character growth and confidence.
But to answer your actual question first!
It's not clear how Pitch deduced that Jack needed his staff, but I think it was a combination of things. First, Jack is incredibly attached to his staff,
Pitch specifically sees Jack in the 2 above scenes, being very defensive and almost using his staff as a security blanket.
Pitch also sees Jack use his staff to fight, there's several opportunities in the lead up to Sandy's death where Pitch could have seen at a glance the way Jack fights with only his staff (and not like, his hands),
he could also have seen how Jack lost his flight when his staff was knocked away from him,
or it could be because Jack points his staff at him when he goes nuclear,
He definitely plays with him in his lair, gets Jack on the defensive to see what he'd do,
knocking his staff away,
though whether this is to learn, confirm, or just torment him is unclear. And if that wasn't enough, the Antarctica fight has Jack wielding his staff very heavily,
So Pitch could've figured it out very last minute!
but, I also think Pitch fell into the (unintentional) trap of believing what Jack believes, and Jack thinks his power comes from his staff.
Which isn't true at all, the power comes from Jack himself, and his staff is just a conduit. Which is why it has frost when Jack touches it, but not when anyone else touches it,
Jack is the only one who can use the staff because it's tailored to his powers. but Jack believes that the powers originate from the staff, and so Pitch believes that by taking the staff, and destroying it, he'll have rendered Jack essentially mortal.
The scene itself, and Jack's attitude and connection to his staff imply that he's never broken it before, so the pain is likely a surprise (a happy one for pitch) for the both of them.
Jack's belief that his powers come from his staff, and having never broken it before, is part of why he gives up in that scene. He doesn't think he can mend his staff (so neither does Pitch).
The reason I don't think any of this is plot armour, is because Jack's shown that he believes the staff is the source of his power from the very beginning,
when the reality is that the power came from him all along, which is even hinted at several times, with the frost moving to follow his hand, disappearing when someone else or no one at all touches the staff. The explosion of power when he defeats Pitch comes from Jack's body, not his staff,
his relationship with his staff is one that symbolises his relationship with himself.
Jack isn't a very confident person - how much so is up to personal interpretation, but at the base of it, he's not confident in himself at all - he feels that he did something wrong to cause his isolation,
he feels that he is not a good fit for the Guardians (not that they're a bad fit for him),
he feels that he is the reason Sandy died,
the reason Babytooth was captured, the reason Easter is destroyed, and why the Guardians lose believers,
Regardless of personal interpretations, Jack is incredibly self depreciating, and lacking in self confidence.
Which is a massive part of his character arc, not because he gets over this aspect of himself - I doubt he'd be able to do that in 3 days, but in general I think this is something innate in Jack, he's sensitive and anxious but doesn't always show it - but because he starts to listen to the Guardians when they say they believe in him, not his staff, not some disembodied voice in the sky, but him.
(this is also why North is such a massive contributer to Jack's personal growth. the whole russian doll thing? notice how Jack actually puts his staff down to listen? how North is constantly talking about how there is something unique to Jack that makes him special? god that's a gorgeous scene...)
and that character flaw, his treatment of his staff as something better than he is? it all comes full circle when Jack figures out that the only thing that makes his staff special is him.
and the only way he was able to figure out he was special? Pitch falling into the trap of only seeing the worst in people, and seeing the worst in Jack specifically.
I think the entire sequence - of Jack believing he's nothing special, to believing his staff is special, to Pitch believing that the staff is special because of Jack's belief, to him destroying it, to Jack learning that the staff was never special - was intentional and thought out.
Pitch knows fear, he knows everyone's greatest fears,
Jack needs his staff to be special, if he's not special then he can't become a Guardian or interact with the world. If he's not special, then no one will ever believe in him, and his greatest fear is realised.
I think Pitch knew that and broke the staff not just as a "stay out of my business" insurance policy, but as a punishment, a way of forcing Jack to fear him and what he can do. To use Jack's fear to fuel his power,
or something. at least that's what I think, but it is open to interpretation because they don't really go into too much detail with Pitch's plans - just enough to make him look evil and get the gears turning but not enough to answer many questions, if any at all!
I hope that answered your question? I got a little lost in the sauce there I think lmao
it's not really talked about in goc fandom but ... nightlight was essentially a slave?
like he and all the other nightlights were born into servitude to protect a child. they had to care for them all night, every night, likely longer since infants sleep more often. they had to stay with them or near them all the time...
idk, they were slaves? and somehow the narrative completely glosses over this fact and goes "oh but how beautiful the golden age was!"
no? you just established that the most "beloved" and royal family of the golden age employed child slaves, that then ritualistically killed themselves once they weren't needed anymore???
and nightlight canonically rarely ever speaks because he had to be quiet for the baby to sleep. he only speaks when he has to even after he's freed from his service!
and then he also canonically distrusts most ātall onesā and only really likes the āsmall onesā?? what were these grown adults doing that made him feel uncomfortable around any adult he didnāt know?
excuse me????
@stormingfrost ās tags pass peer review
How would Jack act if he was sick (in modern AU) or in rotg/rotbtfd verse?
Hello, sorry I didnāt get to this sooner! (Omg April???)
In a modern AU I think itās really the authors choice because every modern AU interprets his situation differently, which would change and affect his reactions. Plus heās aged up or down sometimes depending on the context.
In canon I think that heās the type to conceal it and curl up somewhere to recover. I mostly say this because of how he reacted to a) getting accused of trading baby tooth for his memories, b) getting his staff snapped, c) getting knocked unconscious when defending sandy, and d) getting knocked out of the sky in the final battle.
All of those examples have him get injured, yet he seems to jump back quite quickly.
If we look at it as a doylist, then itās just a mechanic to soften the stress of the situation and get back to the action fairly promptly.
But if we look at it as a Watsonian, then itās just looks a lot like Jack is embarrassed and trying to play it off and shake off attention/concern.
So I think Jack would generally hide or tough it out in front of others to avoid that type of pitying attention.
I do think tho that he would react differently when faced one-to-one. He tends to react more openly when in private - speaking to north in his office, tooth at the pond, bunny in the warren.
So he may be a bit more openly miserable when with someone heās comfortable with and alone with.
As for other factors - I donāt think heād be particularly clingy or weepy until the illness/injury was bad. Bc then his pride would lose to genuine medical concern or just outright pain. And then that would raise all sorts of alarm bells in his friendās minds too.
Hope that answered ur question :p
Jack used to love sassafras tea and root beer made with sassafras and was very annoyed when it was banned from commercial use in 1960. Being immortal and having your favorite foods disappear sucks.
Thanks to the help of the Elephant, Toothiana has been able to put a name to every single Sister of Flight that stands frozen in the Temple grounds. Especially the names that Rashmi mentioned from time to time in her bedtime stories.