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Gosh I just love how Jon and Mel are paralleled in how they choose to ignore truths in relation to visions and prophecy because it’s a very interesting collision of two separate arcs: Jon’s - the deconstructed hidden prince/chosen one - and Mel’s - the deconstructed prophetess/wizard.
Like both are given the same information (i.e., that Jon may be the reincarnation of a legendary fiery-sword wielding hero) and both choose to deny the truth in this information because of one reason or the other: Jon has the tendency to ignore all the magical aspects in his life, mostly because he doesn’t want to be a super special magic boy, and Mel has already decided that the hero in question is some balding, middle-aged weirdo. But there exists a commonality between them since neither one knows of Jon’s true parentage, and so both think he’s just some random guy.
It’s very funny because we learn that Mel has been seeing visions of Jon every time she looks into her flames.
The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain. Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again.
And we know that it’s been happening quite frequently because she gets another vision of Jon (in her POV chapter) and goes “oh god not him again!”
“What do you see, my lady?” the boy asked, softly.
Skulls. A thousand skulls, and the bastard boy again. Jon Snow.
So poor Mel is a little frustrated because she’s not looking for Jon. She’s looking for Stannis because she believes that he is Azor Ahai.
Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R’hllor shows me only Snow.
So she looks for Azor Ahai and only sees Jon Snow, but she never once thinks “hmm it’s super frustrating to keep seeing this weird emo teen but maybe there’s something deeper to it. Like there has to be a reason why I see him in place of my king, right?” And then she talks to Jon in a later chapter and confirms that she is seeing him whenever she looks for Mance or Stannis, as per my previous post, and both of them come out of that conversation being the very definition of “no thoughts, head empty ”. They’re just not going to think about it; and both end up focusing on other aspects of the visions and not the larger theme.
And then there’s this conversation between Jon and Val (in Jon VIII, ADWD) that honestly encapsulates the sheer comedy of a powerful wizard who is sent by destiny to go find this magical prince and missing him, and how the magical prince in question gets really frustrated with the wizard because he thinks that the wizard’s visions are dumb and useless.
In this conversation, Val suggests that Mel may know about Jon switching Dalla’s and Gilly’s babies because of what she sees in her fires.
“And keep [Gilly’s baby] away from the red woman. She knows who he is. She sees things in her fires.”
Val is essentially suggesting that Mel is attuned to the truth because of her prophetic insight. But Jon doesn’t think so.
Arya, he thought, hoping it was so. “Ashes and cinders.”
He hopes Mel can see the truth of Arya’s whereabouts, but what he actually thinks is different. He dismisses Mel’s supposed truth as mere “ashes and cinders”. And it’s so funny because this is a huge miscommunication. Jon is no doubt thinking of Mel seeing “only snow” (we learn from a later chapter that this is the answer Mel always gives) but it seems so silly so he twists that into “ashes and cinders”.
But the problem starts with Mel, honestly. She isn’t able to understand that the king she finds in her fires is Jon Snow and so when she relays the information back to him, she does it in such a vague manner, so Jon thinks she means literal snow (like frozen water, that snow). Except Mel means Jon Snow. She sees Jon Snow in her fires but refuses to ponder further on why she should see him in place of Stannis.
There is such hilarity in a wizard going on a great quest to find a prophesied prince and failing because she at some point found this other guy and convinced herself that he was the prophesied hero all along, even though he didn’t fit at all. So when she is ultimately led to the prince she’s looking for, she mistakes him for some random guy even when her visions actually tell her, “No Mel, wait! This is your guy!! This is your king! Hello?!”
But then, even if she somehow got clued in on said random guy being the prophesied prince, it’s a little too late because he’s already mistrustful of her anyway and doesn’t take her seriously. So he ironically asks her, “have you seen the king in your fires?” And she says, “I’m seeing you when I search for the king”. And literally neither one of them goes, “hey wait a minute?!”
And you know what’s even more frustrating? Some completely unrelated person somehow manages to get to the truth of the matter! (Sort of…). Val somehow manages to understand that what Mel sees is true. In fact, Val is even more correct than she realizes because when Jon dismisses Mel’s visions as “ashes and cinders”, Val counters that with:
“Kings and dragons.”
Oh!
So, according to Val, not only can Mel see the truth, but she can also see the truth of who is a king and/or a dragon.
The king Mel sees is also a dragon, as he is one of the last surviving Targaryens in the world. Where Jon dismisses Mel’s visions, Val somehow takes the narrative’s voice here and goes “oh it’s not just Snow she sees, she also sees that he is a king and a dragon”.
As if this wasn’t comedic enough, Jon gets a vision towards the end of the book that literally connects the dots.
Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. “Snow,” an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she’d appeared.
- Jon XII, ADWD
He dreams of himself as the fire-sword wielding hero Mel has been so crazy about, and then he wakes up to his pet bird calling him “KING” basically affirming everything Mel has been seeing throughout the entire book. And he does the most Jon Snow thing imaginable. He completely ignores it! We get zero commentary to this, same as we got zero commentary from him then Mel said that she saw him every time she tried to look for Mance or Stannis.
Really, both the chosen one and the great wizard are failing quite miserably. They get information much in the same way (Jon gets a prophetic dream, and Mel gets her prophetic visions) but they both decide to ignore whatever they’re seeing. The chosen one is annoyed that the wizard’s visions are useless, the wizard is annoyed that the totally-normal-boy-who’s-definitely-not-the-chosen-one-not-like-Stannis-is-anyway isn’t listening to her, and poor Val is off to the side going “hey, doesn’t anyone else think its important that Mel really does see kings and dragons?!!”
And honestly, Mel’s inability to get it even when the answer is right in front of her becomes even funnier when we take this exchange into account:
[…] all of them seemed surprised to hear Maester Aemon murmur, “It is the war for the dawn you speak of, my lady. But where is the prince that was promised?”
“He stands before you,” Melisandre declared, “though you do not have the eyes to see. Stannis Baratheon is Azor Ahai come again, the warrior of fire. In him the prophecies are fulfilled. The red comet blazed across the sky to herald his coming, and he bears Lightbringer, the red sword of heroes.”
- Samwell IV, ASOS
I- 😭
Mel accuses Maester Aemon of being too blind to see the truth, not knowing that the narrative has damned her as well. Unlike Aemon, she has actually set her eyes on the promised prince but she’s the one who has been too blind to see.
Melisandre is one of my favorite minor POVs mostly because of how GRRM plays with the all-powerful mage trope. See the deconstruction with her is that despite her antics, she’s actually very powerful and all her visions are legit. It’s just that she absolutely sucks at interpreting said visions, mostly because she has all these preconceived notions and is very stubborn about them. And even when the answer is staring right at her (literally), she just doubles down. And it can be very frustrating as a reader, to be quite honest.
Like she’s been super gung ho about Stannis Baratheon being Azor Ahai/the Prince that Was Promised, though only R’hllor know why, to the extent that she will flat-out ignore any evidence to the contrary. Her visions in ADWD essentially scream that Azor Ahai is someone different (not Stannis!) but good ol’ Mel just won’t budge.
There’s this very hilarious interaction in Jon’s 10th ADWD chapter that essentially spells out all of her problems with visions and prophecy, with Jon serving as the reader’s proxy in some ways.
This interaction happens during Alys Karstark’s wedding feast and Patchface drops some of his weird jingles, which Mel very unsettled by. So she’s turns to Jon and is like, “ugh that dude is so creepy, all my visions tell me so”. And Jon’s reaction to this is super funny, because he’s like:
“You see fools in your fire, but no hint of Stannis?”
Wow Jon lmao
He just had to call her out like that, unprovoked. But his frustration makes sense. He’s constantly been asking about Stannis’ whereabouts but Mel’s responses just aren’t very satisfactory (in his opinion).
Then we get this next line which really just says everything about Mel’s stubbornness and perfectly embodies the deconstruction of the all-powerful seer trope.
“When I search for him all I see is snow.”
So Mel looks for Stannis, whom she believes to be Azor Ahai, in her fires but doesn’t find him. Instead she sees “snow”. And this part tracks with her POV too. We know from her chapter that she constantly sees Jon in her visions. It’s how we get the very interesting “I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R’hllor shows me only Snow” line.
So one would think that Mel might go: “Hmmm I look for the prophesied savior, but I don’t see Stannis. Instead, I only see Snow. I don’t doubt R’hllor’s power so if my visions are true, then maybe I need to rethink a few things”.
One would think…
But nope!
And Jon’s like “Hey maybe you’re not seeing Stannis because he’s super dead, ever think about that Mel?” And she proceeds to spout the usual Azor Ahai stuff and even mentions Dragonstone:
“When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. Dragonstone is the place of smoke and salt.”
To which Jon’s replies, “uhhhh news flash Stannis was not born on Dragonstone so that doesn’t track”.
Obviously this is Jon’s skepticism but I like to think that he took the reader’s place here. Because many of us have asked ourselves, why oh why would Mel think of Stannis just because she saw Dragonstone? Like yeah, he’s the Lord of Dragonstone but he wasn’t born there. It’s quite a valid question and how does Mel counter it? She doubles down and twist herself into a pretzel to make Stannis fit (even though he doesn’t fit at all!)
Really, Jon’s reaction is essentially what would happen if someone dropped me into the world of ASOIAF and gave me the chance to meet Mel and ask her a few questions. I’d be quite frustrated, just as Jon is here. And to be fair, the reader has a lot of auxiliary information (e.g., Jon’s parentage) that Mel doesn’t have.
But then the next few lines really illustrate just why poor Mel can be so frustrating. Because Jon’s follow up is,
“And what of Mance? Is he lost as well? What do your fires show?”
And what does Mel say?
“The same, I fear. Only snow.”
…??!
Mel!😭
Seriously, I cannot! This is the exact same situation as with Stannis. She looks for a king but only sees Snow. This makes me wonder then, based on previous wording, if she’s specifically looking for “the King Beyond the Wall” (not just “Mance”) and only seeing Snow - at this point, Jon has all but supplanted Mance.
So once again, one would think that Mel would go: hmmmm I look for the King Beyond the Wall but I see Jon Snow and not Mance Rayder. Seeing that Mance’s power has been diminished and Jon Snow is now taking control of the wildlings, maybe I should re-evaluate a few things”.
Yeah, one would think…
Homegirl is trying her best, she really is. But sadly, her best can only get E for Effort.
And at this point the reader is just done with Mel, and Jon is too:
“You are seeing cinders dancing in the updraft.”
He doesn’t even bother to phase it as a question lmao. He just calls her out and doesn’t care.
And we’re in his POV so he’s thinking of the lower case “snow”. Also, why in the hell is Mel referring to Jon like this?
Anyway, this is why I think Jon serves as the reader’s proxy in this conversation because it’s like a thinking exercise (facilitated by the narrative) that ultimately goes nowhere because Mel is so, so stubborn.
Because if we really break it down:
R’hllor/the Narrative: Who do you see when you search for the king/Azor Ahai?
Mel: Jon Snow
R’hllor/the Narrative: Ok…and who do you see when you search for the King Beyond the Wall?
Mel: Erm, Jon Snow…
R’hllor/the Narrative/the Reader: Great! So say it with me. The king you’re looking for is J-
Mel: STANNIS BARATHEON!
R’hllor/the Reader: …?!
And before anyone claims that this is a misdirect, Mel really is seeing Jon Snow. Straight from the horse’s mouth:
“I am seeing skulls. And you. I see your face every time I look into the flames.”
Friend….I don’t even know what to say anymore…
Along the same lines of “jon snow is dumb” comes another gem: “jon snow was bad at PR”.
I’ve seen many times around people saying that Jon got himself killed for being dumb and not doing his pr right. But that doesnt make any sense!!!
I’m not gonna write in depth about it because there are already great metas about jon, his skills and political inteligence but I just want to leave a question for the fandom:
What could Jon have done to not get killed? And I’m not accepting any answer that goes against Jon’s personality, morals or goals in the book, otherwise you would just be changing the character all togheter.
To be fair, I think they were already going to off him because Bowen Marsh was refusing to eat any offerings Jon made him (can’t remember which chapter though). Jon announcing that he was riding south to confront Ramsay was probably the last straw. But I have a lot of issues with how the fandom interprets this act. I can’t tell you how many people say that “Bowen Marsh was right” or that “Jon deserved to die”; both of these, imo, are very surface level readings of the text (and a little lazy).
To say any of the mutineers was right is to ascribe moral superiority to them over Jon. But that would not be true to the text because Bowen Marsh, the head conspirator, is a raging hypocrite. He had absolutely no issue with playing to Tywin Lannister’s whims and was trying to get people to vote for Janos Slynt to please King’s Landing. That’s not very “the Night’s Watch takes no part” of him, is it? Bowen isn’t too mad that Jon broke NW neutrality. He’s mad that Jon broke neutrality for what he deems to be the losing side.
There’s really a lot of handwringing about so called NW neutrality in this fandom and it absolutely grinds my gears. I understand why this was a policy that was implemented in the past, but these are unprecedented times. For one, the realm has been plunged into civil war and there are several claimants to the Iron Throne. This makes for a very difficult position for the NW because unlike previous millennia when they were self sustaining, the current situation is that they have to rely on the realm to give them men and resources. They have historically relied on House Stark and Winterfell, but the Starks are also embroiled in the civil war and have even seceded from the seven kingdoms. To make nice with the Starks is to anger the Lannisters in KL, which is breaking neutrality. But they can’t anger the Starks and side with KL because they’re the ones who have sustained them all these years. They also try to make nice with KL but that’s playing nice with the Stark’s enemies, and the Starks would be a much more immediate threat. Plus, the Lannisters don’t even heed their calls and completely ignore them. So staying true to the Iron Throne will bring them no benefits.
To make matters worse, the NW is facing a threat from the Wildlings who severely outnumber them. Lord Stark was aware of this but he’s dead, and his son is busy fighting and dying in the south. So they have to once again ask the lords of the realm to provide them aid, and no one answers. No one, except Stannis Baratheon. And it’s a big deal for Stannis to answer, that’s why he’s called The King who Cared. But big problem. Huge. Stannis is one of the claimants to the Iron Throne. So he’s in direct contention with the Lannisters in King’s Landing. The minute Stannis gets to the Wall, parks his army, and starts making demands of them, is the minute NW neutrality is completely broken. They cannot refuse him because he saved their asses and because he vastly outnumbers them, a point which Jon will bring up later. So they have to make the best of the situation and straddle between lines which turns out to be a problem anyway.
It’s not Jon’s fault that some of his brothers are absolute buffoons who cannot see past their noses to understand that times are rough. Literally everything that could go wrong has already done so, and things are about to get so much worse because an apocalypse is looming with ice demons and their zombie thralls coming to threaten all of humanity.
So Jon has to make a choice when he’s elected Lord Commander. And he chooses Stannis. There’s personal reasons for sure (because he has beef with the Lannisters), but Stannis is the only one who understands what’s going on. Not only does he understand, but he has made it his duty to help the NW and humanity. No one else has done that and Jon can’t sit around writing sweet letters to the realm asking them to help with the zombies; he tries to anyway and his reward is a planned assassination attempt, which once again spits in the face of neutrality but apparently the people in this fandom don’t care.
Jon is expected to uphold something that no one else will. And no one wants to give him exceptions based on the current situation. I think Jon had every right to choose Stannis. Not just in his quest for the Iron Throne but in his quest for Winterfell. Because think about it. If the NW falls, Winterfell is the first line of defense. But what to do now that the Starks, who have historically supported the Watch, are gone and the current lord doesn’t care? And what can they do when a better candidate, who does care, delivers himself to their doorstep? Jon has to make a choice and, in my opinion, he chose correctly. There’s an implicit understanding in Jon’s chapters that Stannis is good for the realm. Yes, Jon has personal bias attached but he’s also damn right. No one else can (or will) help them like Stannis can.
And there’s another question that comes up here which is often ignored by the fandom. To what end can the NW step aside and let men such as Roose and Ramsay Bolton gather power? Should they ignore whatever atrocities are being committed because, after all, the NW takes no part? Where’s the morality in that? And if they do choose to let the Boltons do as they wish, isn’t that picking a side anyway? If you see a weak and bloodied man on the street and there is a mob coming for him, you have some options. You either help the man or you help the mob that is threatening him. You can also choose to step aside and let fate decide, but the injured man will surely fall victim to the mob as he lacks the individual strength to defend himself. So you’ve made a choice anyway and you’re either helping the man or working against him (even if you don’t personally interfere). It’s not a perfect analogy but anyway…
But let’s get back to the question of Jon’s moral obligation. He knows the Boltons are bad and cannot be trusted. He also cannot rely on them to help the Watch, an opinion that is no doubt amplified by their hand in the Red Wedding. That is why he’s so distraught over news that Arya is wedding Ramsay. He surely would agonize over it as much as he did if she was marrying some random Cerwyn or Tallhart. But she is to marry a monster and though Jon may not know the true extent of Ramsay’s moral depravity, what he does know is not very good. So he asks himself if he should break neutrality and aid his sister or leave her to fate. I don’t know how anyone in their right mind could think that leaving Arya to her fate would be the right decision, but there are people in this fandom who do. And it’s mind boggling. I understand that the coolness of Machiavellian politics has rotted our brains, but let’s not forget that GRRM is not a nihilist. Jon chooses to confront Ramsay and also save Arya, and I think that was the morally right decision. But sometimes moral decisions bring disastrous effects, especially when our heroes are surrounded by prejudiced people. And let no one doubt it. Jon choosing to save Arya, while knowing of the dangers, makes him a hero. He is a hero. I don’t know how many times GRRM has to specifically call Jon a hero in and out of universe for this fandom to get it, but he is one. That he died is not some gotcha to the character and it’s so bizarre how many people in this fandom go “haha remember who is really dead in the books”. Jon’s death is not a matter of celebration. It’s a damning illumination on the true moral degradation of the Night’s Watch. Plus we know he’ll be back and I think his eventual return will be a reward for his doomed but heroic need to save everybody. Because Westeros does not need Machiavellian actors right now as they face an inhuman apocalypse. They need a hero. They need Jon, the hero who is willing to put his life on the line to save individual and collective humanity.
This is where GRRM shines as a writer because we get to what is probably the main theme of the series: the heart in conflict with its self. Should Jon preserve a failing institution by following the letter of the law? Even if the law is all kinds of messed up? Or should he actually follow the spirit of the law and serve as a protector of men? Which is literally his job description. Yes, as Lord Commander, Jon’s primary function is to lead the Watch. But let’s not forget what goal he is working towards. He is not working towards protecting the Watch, he is working toward protecting humanity. He can’t pick and choose who to save because every single life matters, and Jon understands before anyone else does. And the fandom would do well to remember that.
I agree with this in regards to GRRM’s tackling of putting Jon into this situation of having to choose between his sworn oaths or his love for Arya and contrasting that to someone like Maester Aemon.
I think Jon’s conflict with NW neutrality needs to be analyzed in two halves. His helping of Stannis and his efforts to save Arya. The first - his aiding in Stannis’ campaign - is an outcome of his belief that Stannis fights for the good of the realm and necessary for the defense of the Wall. The second is purely selfish and concerns only Arya and Jon himself. The two run as separate conflicts until they collide in the end with the Pink Letter and culminating in Jon’s assassination.
There’s really a lot of handwringing about so called NW neutrality in this fandom and it absolutely grinds my gears. I understand why this was a policy that was implemented in the past, but these are unprecedented times. For one, the realm has been plunged into civil war and there are several claimants to the Iron Throne. This makes for a very difficult position for the NW because unlike previous millennia when they were self sustaining
Here I disagree. It’s precisely because these are unprecedented times that the neutrality of the NW is all the more important. This neutrality is what underpins the theme of the series about humanity being unified against a greater threat.
They have historically relied on House Stark and Winterfell, but the Starks are also embroiled in the civil war and have even seceded from the seven kingdoms. To make nice with the Starks is to anger the Lannisters in KL, which is breaking neutrality. But they can’t anger the Starks and side with KL because they’re the ones who have sustained them all these years.
You are making the case for why the neutrality of the NW is important and why they stay away from inter-kingdom and inter-house conflicts. To make nice with one house is to anger another. And while the Starks have traditionally been the Wall’s greatest supporters (Even this can be debated considering Alysanne Targaryen did more to fund the Wall’s coffers with the Gift - a decision that the Starks disagreed with) this does not imply that the Wall would support the Starks over any other house in the event of a conflict.
As Maester Aemon explains:
“Jon, did you ever wonder why the men of the Night’s Watch take no wives and father no children?” Maester Aemon asked.
“So they will not love,” the old man answered, “for love is the bane of honor, the death of duty.”
What is honor compared to a woman’s love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms … or the memory of a brother’s smile? Wind and words. Wind and words. We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy. The men who formed the Night’s Watch knew that only their courage shielded the realm from the darkness to the north. They knew they must have no divided loyalties to weaken their resolve. So they vowed they would have no wives nor children.
“Yet brothers they had, and sisters. Mothers who gave them birth, fathers who gave them names. They came from a hundred quarrelsome kingdoms, and they knew times may change, but men do not. So they pledged as well that the Night’s Watch would take no part in the battles of the realms it guarded.
They kept their pledge. When Aegon slew Black Harren and claimed his kingdom, Harren’s brother was Lord Commander on the Wall, with ten thousand swords to hand. He did not march. In the days when the Seven Kingdoms were seven kingdoms, not a generation passed that three or four of them were not at war. The Watch took no part. When the Andals crossed the narrow sea and swept away the kingdoms of the First Men, the sons of the fallen kings held true to their vows and remained at their posts. So it has always been, for years beyond counting. Such is the price of honor.
Remember this neutrality has held for 8000 years, across eons and conquests and the First Men and the Andals and the Targaryens, through civil wars and wars between the different kingdoms and houses.
Does this mean that the NW is always neutral in all aspects? By the time we reach 298 AC and the Wall is a now a penal colony and failing institution in terms of it’s infrastructure and man power, we start seeing this neutrality start to fray. With the WOT5K, Tywin Lannister pushes for his candidate for Lord Commander. Tywin seems to be an anomaly here because while Stannis lands at the Wall, he does not force them to pick a candidate of his choosing. He certainly had the power to do this, but does not. With Tywin it’s not surprising because he has no regard for the customs, rules and laws of the land - ex. The Red Wedding.
As you point out, Bowen Marsh wants to please the Lannisters by making Janos Slynt Lord Commander. How did that happen? It starts with Marsh writing to all 5 kings asking for help to defend the Wall.
“The letter is from the same Bowen Marsh who sent the last. The castellan. He writes that Lord Mormont has sent word of wildlings moving south in vast numbers.” (—)
“It is not,” Pycelle admitted, “but none of Mormont’s men have returned as yet. Marsh fears the wildlings have killed them, and that the Wall itself may be attacked next.” He fumbled in his robe and found the paper. “Here is his letter, my lord, a plea to all five kings. He wants men, as many men as we can send him.”
“Five kings?” His father was annoyed. “There is one king in Westeros. Those fools in black might try and remember that if they wish His Grace to heed them. When you reply, tell him that Renly is dead and the others are traitors and pretenders.”
“No doubt they will be glad to learn it. The Wall is a world apart, and news oft reaches them late.” Pycelle bobbed his head up and down. “What shall I tell Marsh concerning the men he begs for? Shall we convene the council …” (—)
Tyrion liked that notion not at all. “The black brothers choose their own commander,” he reminded them. “Lord Slynt is new to the Wall. I know, I sent him there. Why should they pick him over a dozen more senior men?” “Because,” his father said, in a tone that suggested Tyrion was quite the simpleton, “if they do not vote as they are told, their Wall will melt before it sees another man.” - Tyrion, ASoS
The sound of voices echoing off the vaulted ceiling brought him back to Castle Black. “I don’t know,” a man was saying, in a voice thick with doubts. “Maybe if I knew the man better … Lord Stannis didn’t have much good to say of him, I’ll tell you that.”
“When has Stannis Baratheon ever had much good to say of anyone?” Ser Alliser’s flinty voice was unmistakable. “If we let Stannis choose our Lord Commander, we become his bannermen in all but name. Tywin Lannister is not like to forget that, and you know it will be Lord Tywin who wins in the end. He’s already beaten Stannis once, on the Blackwater.”
“Lord Tywin favors Slynt,” said Bowen Marsh, in a fretful, anxious voice. “I can show you his letter, Othell. ‘Our faithful friend and servant,’ he called him.” - Jon, ASoS
So Marsh writes to all the kings asking for help, Tywin writes back threatening them to elect Slynt as LC and then Stannis lands at the Wall and now things become more complicated. To stave off Tywin’s wrath, Marsh wants Slynt as the candidate.
This is in contrast to Jon Snow’s own actions with regards to the Boltons. He accedes to Mel’s suggestion to send Mance to rescue Arya from the Boltons, which then leads to Ramsay’s letter threatening the Watch if Jon does not return his bride and Stannis’ family and Jon then deciding to go attack the Warden of the North with an army of Freefolk who are despised by the North! Something against which Jon himself warns Stannis about earlier:
“Drinking from Mance Rayder’s skull may give Mors Umber pleasure, but seeing wildlings cross his lands will not. The free folk have been raiding the Umbers since the Dawn of Days, crossing the Bay of Seals for gold and sheep and women. One of those carried off was Crowfood’s daughter. Your Grace, leave the wildlings here. Taking them will only serve to turn my lord father’s bannermen against you.” - Jon, ADwD
And recall, one of the mutineers who is possibly involved in the assassination of Jon Snow is Othell Yarwyck who actually voted for Jon Snow and not Janos Slynt.
“Well, that’s so,” said Yarwyck. “Anyway, now that I’m standing here, I don’t recall why I thought Slynt would be such a good choice. That would be sort of kicking King Stannis in the mouth, and I don’t see how that serves us. Might be Snow would be better. He’s been longer on the Wall, he’s Ben Stark’s nephew, and he served the Old Bear as squire.” Yarwyck shrugged. “Pick who you want, just so it’s not me.” He sat down. - Jon, ASoS
And there’s Sam’s POV chapter, campaigning for Jon Snow, with the candidates affirming that the rulers of the realm should not decide their next LC.
The wine was sweet, and Ser Denys listened to Sam’s plea with grave courtesy, unlike Cotter Pyke. But when he was done, the old knight shook his head. “I agree that it would be a dark day in our history if a king were to name our Lord Commander. This king especially. He is not like to keep his crown for long. But truly, Samwell, it ought to be Pyke who withdraws. I have more support than he does, and I am better suited to the office.” - Sam, ASoS
There’s also the fact that up until the end of ADwD, Jon Snow is straddling that thin line between neutrality and interfering in the affairs of the realm with respect to Stannis and justifying this in his mind by seeing it as for the good of the realm. When Marsh and co. object to Stannis being at the Wall, Jon tells them he does not have the power to kick Stannis out and is helpless in this regard.
“Stannis promises land, food, and justice to any wildlings who bend the knee. He will never permit us to seal the gates.”
Marsh hesitated. “Lord Snow, I am not one to bear tales, but there has been talk that you are becoming too … too friendly with Lord Stannis. Some even suggest that you are … a …”
A rebel and a turncloak, aye, and a bastard and a warg as well. Janos Slynt might be gone, but his lies lingered. “I know what they say.” Jon had heard the whispers, had seen men turn away when he crossed the yard. “What would they have me do, take up swords against Stannis and the wildlings both? His Grace has thrice the fighting men we do, and is our guest besides. The laws of hospitality protect him. And we owe him and his a debt.” - Jon, ADwD
Later, Jon makes the same argument with Samwell, when he sends off a letter to King Tommen asking for help for the Watch.
“I gave Stannis food, shelter, and the Nightfort, plus leave to settle some free folk in the Gift. That’s all.”
“Lord Tywin will say it was too much.”
“Stannis says it’s not enough. The more you give a king, the more he wants. We are walking on a bridge of ice with an abyss on either side. Pleasing one king is difficult enough. Pleasing two is hardly possible.” - Jon, ADwD
When Marsh then argues about the danger of Stannis as a monarch who will most probably be defeated leaving them to face Lannister wrath - his reason for wanting to support Slynt - Jon makes the case that it may well be Stannis who ends up winning (In a call back to his own father Ned Stark at the Three Sisters at the start of Robert’s Rebellion)
“Lord Stannis helped us when we needed help,” Marsh said doggedly, “but he is still a rebel, and his cause is doomed. As doomed as we’ll be if the Iron Throne marks us down as traitors. We must be certain that we do not choose the losing side.”
“It is not my intent to choose any side,” said Jon, “but I am not as certain of the outcome of this war as you seem to be, my lord. Not with Lord Tywin dead. The lion in King’s Landing is a cub, and the Iron Throne has been known to cut grown men to ribbons.” - Jon, ADwD
In actuality, without the brothers knowing, Jon is choosing a side and helping plan Stannis’ campaign at the Wall. For two reasons - he wants the Boltons gone for personal revenge and he thinks that Stannis is right in that an united realm under one ruler is necessary to defend the Wall.
Jon realized that his words were wasted. Stannis would take the Dreadfort or die in the attempt. The Night’s Watch takes no part, a voice said, but another replied, Stannis fights for the realm, the ironmen for thralls and plunder. “Your Grace, I know where you might find more men. Give me the wildlings, and I will gladly tell you where and how.” - Jon, ADwD
Thus far Marsh, Yarwyck and co. go along with Jon’s explanations and orders even if they are not happy about it. Because Jon does explain matters to them as much as he is able. Which is why the ‘bad PR’ nonsense is so much bs.
However, by the time we get to the end of ADwD is when the Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch has decided to use an army of Wildlings to go attack the lawful Warden of the North for personal reasons i.e Arya. At that point, there is no straddling the line, instead, Jon has just torn up the NW rule book. As Joey Tribbiani says (Just imagine Bowen Marsh saying this to Jon Snow):
There can be no acceptable explanation for this that Jon can give Marsh and co, like he did earlier, other than I want to attack this bastard for threatening my sister. Even Jon acknowledges this:
Yarwyck and Marsh were slipping out, he saw, and all their men behind them. It made no matter. He did not need them now. He did not want them. No man can ever say I made my brothers break their vows. If this is oathbreaking, the crime is mine and mine alone. - Jon, ADwD
Now of course all this is not to say that Bowen Marsh was right to do what he did nor is any of this meant to justify his actions. Only to give a perspective into why Jon’s plan to attack the Boltons is the straw that broke the camel’s back. What he and the other assassins did was clearly sudden and not planned - it happened in a courtyard surrounded by battle hungry Freefolk ready to go to war for Jon Snow. Surely they would know that this is not going to end well for them. In their minds they see this as an act to preserve the Watch.
Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. “For the Watch.” He punched Jon in the belly. - Jon, ADwD
All this is also not to condemn Jon Snow for his decision. How could anyone not refuse to help someone they love when there’s a chance to save them? Others have done it, Maester Aemon has done it and yet Jon Snow fails. His decision leads to mutiny and chaos at the Wall at a time when an existential threat is almost at their doorstep. And yet his very human need to help save a much loved sister is also entirely understandable from his perspective.
And finally:
He knows the Boltons are bad and cannot be trusted. He also cannot rely on them to help the Watch, an opinion that is no doubt amplified by their hand in the Red Wedding. That is why he’s so distraught over news that Arya is wedding Ramsay. He surely would agonize over it as much as he did if she was marrying some random Cerwyn or Tallhart. But she is to marry a monster and though Jon may not know the true extent of Ramsay’s moral depravity, what he does know is not very good.
The Boltons are the enemy and yes, Jon’s distress here is with Arya being forced into marrying the enemy against her wishes. I assume he would feel the same way no matter who she is being forced to marry considering how his thoughts are centered on Arya being a child and the lack of consent.
Jon could almost see her in that moment, long-faced and gawky, all knobby knees and sharp elbows, with her dirty face and tangled hair. They would wash the one and comb the other, he did not doubt, but he could not imagine Arya in a wedding gown, nor Ramsay Bolton’s bed. No matter how afraid she is, she will not show it. If he tries to lay a hand on her, she’ll fight him. By now she’d be eleven, Jon thought. Still a child.
He’d had Mikken make a sword for Arya once, a bravo’s blade, made small to fit her hand. Needle. He wondered if she still had it. Stick them with the pointy end, he’d told her, but if she tried to stick the Bastard, it could mean her life. - Jon, ADwD
And yet, Jon dithers and dallies and agonizes over helping even the person he loves most in the world precisely because of his oaths and the neutrality of the NW. It’s Arya!! That should tell us everything about how important it is to preserve the neutrality of an institution with members from different houses from all over Westeros for that institution to actually work effectively.
“I have no sister. Only brothers. Only you.” Lady Catelyn would have rejoiced to hear those words, he knew. That did not make them easier to say. His fingers closed around the parchment. Would that they could crush Ramsay Bolton’s throat as easily.
(—-)
“You have not asked about your sister,” Melisandre said, as they climbed the spiral steps of the King’s Tower. “I told you. I have no sister. We put aside our kin when we say our words. I cannot help Arya, much as I—”
(—-)
Dark dreams, he thought, and guilt. His thoughts kept returning to Arya. There is no way I can help her. I put all kin aside when I said my words. If one of my men told me his sister was in peril, I would tell him that was no concern of his. Once a man had said the words his blood was black. Black as a bastard’s heart. - Jon, ADwD
Precisely. Jon has a point here. There are Smallwoods and Stouts at the Wall as well, with their houses involved in the Northern conflict. What if one of them wanted to save a sister forced into marriage by another house? Would Jon be okay with that? What makes Jon’s situation any different to that of the other men who also have family and loved ones involved in war.
It took Melisandre giving him a way to secretly help Arya for him to do it. He does not help his father or Robb because of his oaths, abandons Ygritte, refuses Stannis’ offer of Winterfell. And yet…and yet this time, the Pink Letter is also the straw that breaks the camel’s back for Jon Snow and he decides to do something about Ramsay Bolton once and for all and save his sister. The consequences of which we will see in the next book if it ever comes out.
I love all the points that you raised!
I’ll expand on what I was trying to get at in regards to neutrality because I really don’t think it’s as easy to say that Jon should have simply upheld it.
You are making the case for why the neutrality of the NW is important and why they stay away from inter-kingdom and inter-house conflicts. To make nice with one house is to anger another. And while the Starks have traditionally been the Wall’s greatest supporters (Even this can be debated considering Alysanne Targaryen did more to fund the Wall’s coffers with the Gift - a decision that the Starks disagreed with) this does not imply that the Wall would support the Starks over any other house in the event of a conflict.
I think we have to agree to disagree lol I was not advocating for the Watch getting involved in the Stark’s conflict against the Iron Throne, not at all. I probably didn’t explain myself very well but what I was trying to get at is that neutrality is not attainable at this point. Or even if it was, it would be a very hard sell due to the nature of the political conflict that’s currently raging around Westeros - and the nature of the people involved in that conflict. You make some great points but I think we just read them differently.
The NW tries to please several sides (and I’m glad that you provided the context with Bowen!), but my argument is that the straddling of several sides is counterintuitive because it really doesn’t help them much anyway, especially not with the current times.
“Another problem has arisen on the Wall, however. The brothers of the Night’s Watch have taken leave of their wits and chosen Ned Stark’s bastard son to be their Lord Commander.”
[…]
“The father would have handed the realm to Stannis. The son has given him lands and castles.”
[…]
“Until now,” said Cersei. “The bastard boy has written us to avow that the Night’s Watch takes no side, but his actions give the lie to his words. He has given Stannis food and shelter, yet has the insolence to plead with us for arms and men.”
- Cersei IV, AFFC
I see several problems here for Jon. First, I think his identity puts him at a disadvantage. He’s Ned Stark’s son who has just risen to a position of command. As Cersei expresses in that first quote, that is very unpleasant. Though I will admit, it doesn’t automatically mean that King’s Landing will turn murderous. Just that they are not comfortable, again as Cersei’s quote suggests.
Things take a turn for the worse, however, when they hear that Jon has given Stannis “lands and castles”. Even after Jon has sent his paper shields, they still doubt his sincerity. I do find it interesting that Cersei later mentions Jon giving Stannis “food and shelter”. Even accommodating Stannis as a guest seems to be an issue. It’s an issue because Stannis is in direct contention with the crown. He’s a rebel and by aiding a rebel, the NW is seen to be working against the crown. Coupled with the fact that Stannis takes some castles and it looks like the NW is truly moving with Stannis and against the crown. Even though at this point, they haven’t even gone all the way. And thank you for providing that quote about Stannis being protected by the laws of hospitality. Because Jon is understanding his aid of Stannis to be upholding this law, but KL doesn’t seem to consider that as an option.
“An outrage,” declared Lord Merryweather. “We cannot allow the Night’s Watch to join its strength to that of Lord Stannis.”
“We must declare this Snow a traitor and a rebel,” agreed Ser Harys Swyft. “The black brothers must remove him.”
Grand Maester Pycelle nodded ponderously. “I propose that we inform Castle Black that no more men will be sent to them until such time as Snow is gone.”
- same chapter
So they jump to murder once they hear that Jon is giving Stannis a few provisions;,provisions that he lowkey demands of them.
That’s what I was trying to get at when I said that neutrality and trying to please two sides doesn’t really work. The act of Jon giving Stannis the very few provisions he has at this stage pretty much enables a possible assassination attempt. And Jon does try not to give Stannis too much, but it’s not easy. And I agree with you that Jon is motivated partly by selfish desires so that’s when we see him providing Stannis with military aid. But again, the personal and political intersect.
Still, the little he gives is not enough for Stannis and too much for the Lannisters.
“It’s death and destruction I want to bring down upon House Lannister, not scorn.” Jon read from the letter. “The Night’s Watch takes no part in the wars of the Seven Kingdoms. Our oaths are sworn to the realm, and the realm now stands in dire peril. Stannis Baratheon aids us against our foes from beyond the Wall, though we are not his men …”
“I gave Stannis food, shelter, and the Nightfort, plus leave to settle some free folk in the Gift. That’s all.”
“Lord Tywin will say it was too much.”
“Stannis says it’s not enough. The more you give a king, the more he wants. We are walking on a bridge of ice with an abyss on either side. Pleasing one king is difficult enough. Pleasing two is hardly possible.”
- Jon II, ADWD
(I just realized that you linked the exact same quote. Apologies for the redundancy)
Therein lies the issue. Straddling two sides sometimes means displeasing both - and we can see that with the passage from Cersei’s chapter. Even if Jon were to say “Stannis made me do it”, it still wouldn’t help much. Though I’ll admit that Sam raises a good point about a situation in which Stannis loses. Jon tries to come up with several excuses but none of them work very well because they all rely on ifs.
“If,” Sam stressed. “If not … my lord, even a paper shield is better than none.”
- same chapter as above quote
Jon listens to Sam and sends the paper shield….but it doesn’t work because Cersei and her council ignore his excuses anyway. So I personally don’t see how neutrality can be upheld when the current choices are sides that are at war with each other. Especially when both sides will find fault with whatever choice he makes. Trying to please both Stannis and the Lannisters doesn’t have benefits and will backfire. True neutrality at this point, imo, would be to say no to everyone and let the NW do it’s business on its own. But that’s not possible because 1) Stannis is parked there…
Stannis crossed his arms. “I shall require a few other things from you as well. Things that you may not be so quick to give. I want your castles. And I want the Gift.”Those blunt words burst among the black brothers like a pot of wildfire tossed onto a brazier. Marsh, Mallister, and Pyke all tried to speak at once. King Stannis let them talk. When they were done, he said, “I have three times the men you do. I can take the lands if I wish, but I would prefer to do this legally, with your consent.”“The Gift was given to the Night’s Watch in perpetuity, Your Grace,” Bowen Marsh insisted. “Which means it cannot be lawfully seized, attained, or taken from you. But what was given once can be given again.”
- Samwell V, ASOS
…and is making demands which, as we see in Cersei’s chapter, when met doesn’t go over too well with the crown. Plus Stannis helped them so they can’t just turn around and say, “sorry but neutrality you know”. It’s not like Stannis would like that very much. And 2) even if Jon was to play nice with the Lannisters, there’s no guarantee that they will actually aid him when the NW needs him. So that’s what I was getting at when I said that Jon had to pick Stannis.
Btw, I made a typo above. I meant to say that I don’t think Jon would agonize over Arya’s marriage as much if it was some other northern boy.
Re Jon marching south and oath breaking for Arya, I do agree that the mutineers felt that they needed to remove Jon because he was picking a fight with Ramsay, but I think it’s also important to highlight that Jon’s reaction goes beyond Arya.
I want my bride back. I want the false king’s queen. I want his daughter and his red witch. I want his wildling princess. I want his little prince, the wildling babe. And I want my Reek. Send them to me, bastard, and I will not trouble you or your black crows. Keep them from me, and I will cut out your bastard’s heart and eat it.
- Jon XIII, ADWD
Ramsay makes so many demands that Jon cannot possibly meet. Jon doesn’t have Reek - he doesn’t even know what a “reek” is. The mutineers think they’ve saved their skins by killing Jon, but what happens if/when Ramsay shows up and asks for the others? Can they actually give Val, Mance’s baby, Selyse, Shireen, Mel away? And if they do, is that remaining neutral or picking a side? How do they expect to meet Ramsay’s demands? Will Ramsay actually go “oops my bad, have a nice day” once he sees that the black brothers have removed Jon? Somehow, I doubt that he would. They didn’t think that one through I’m afraid.
So yeah. I think you make great points but I just don’t agree with some.
i love this jon chapter (the one where he brings tormunds folks south of the wall) because like in practice all that happens in it is jon hanging out outside the wall shooting the shit with tormund all day (tormund kingmaker lol!), real dudes rock hours, but he just gets hit by a barrage of symbolic kingship bullshit in a straight stream and is not picking up on it.
get kingmade idiot!!! by the end of this chapter he is functionally already king beyond the wall and no one bothers to tell him ... like its not a ceremonial title & its not something they do all the time its a specific job description, king beyond the wall specifically means "guy that unites wildling groups on a shared project which is usually crossing the wall" -- he's literally doing it already! he's king beyond the wall-ing and they all know it lol
he opens the chapter with that crazy I Am The Lord of Winterfell dream, gets up, brings the wildlings below the wall, immediately compares it to Winterfell. and then the chapter ends with him getting the letter from Hardhome & recommitting to Team Wildling...AGAIN...now my war begins etc (splashes around in king symbolism for several chapters) (fucking dies)
Robby getting the big coming to work sequence and then Langdon and Dana getting a similar version showing how they’re preparing to be back in the Pitt after a break. They’re the main characters this season I fear.
Robby going to a whole other room to avoid Langdon. You’re a grown ass man, act like it! lmfao
Man, I just don’t care about Whitaker. This is going to be tough for me but I’ll persevere for Langdon and McKay.
Cesare from The Borgias…. Maybe it’s the brooding and black clothes but he’s giving Jon Snow to me.
I’m sorry to say that those American Eagle ads have made it more obvious than ever that Miss Sweeney does NOT have IT. She’s pretty and a good dramatic actor but she’s so lacking in charisma that those ads end up feeling weird, off putting and awkward when I’m sure they were going for tongue in cheek and saucy.
As much as I like Bob and Yelena, I’m getting a bit weary of the motherification of Yelena in fandom. It’s one thing for her to be his guiding light and to support him and another to have her constantly mothering him. She has her own mess and her own issues that need to be worked on.
Need a fic where Yelena jumps of a building and Bob who’s on the ground PANICS. She has a parachute on of course, but he doesn’t know that, so he immediately flies to catch her.
It could be the first time Bob gets access to his powers as himself or it could be that it’s actually Sentry who catches her cause Bob’s fondness for Yelena transcends everything.
In a world with two Avengers teams, it would be really funny if most villains thought that Sam Wilson’s team is the most dangerous scary one cause they have more actual superpowered people but it turns out it’s The New Avengers they should be afraid of cause yes they’re scrappy but they know it and make up for it by being ruthless.
Watched Thunderbolts and yeah this team feels more like a family than the avengers ever did.
One of my favorite things about Thunderbolts* is the care they took to build the team’s dynamic and relationship.
The Avengers (2012) has the team come together because of a sense of duty: Natasha, Clint, even Steve are doing their jobs, Thor is there because of Loki, Tony and Bruce are there as SHIELD contractors. Once the job is done and the battle won they go their separate ways, and sure they have missions together as seen in Age of Ultron but there’s very little time spent to establish them as more than a group of coworkers.
The Thunderbolts were also thrown together due to whacky plot related circumstances, however they were never expected to work together and yet they did, out of their own will. Out of self interest at first sure, but throughout the movie they kept choosing each other, they chose to help each other escape, to make plans together, to help Bob, to save Yelena and finally to stay as a team.
It’s the continuous decision to be there for each other, even when it’s hard, what made me believe in their recently established friendship and I really love it.
Hopefully Doomsday builds on this and doesn’t have them do a 180 for plot reasons, but it’s the Russos so who the fuck knows.
Except I’m not the one that’s on the cover of a magazine. I’m not the killer that little girls call their hero.
My Agatha All Along theory is that contrary to what’s been speculated, Agatha has walked the road before. However, she did it without being part of the Coven much like Teen is doing right now. This explains how she knows so much about the road and why she keeps trying to find ways to game the road.