hey i have a question: why do you think achilles is the top? i know many think that and i never get quite behind it since i've only read him described as the bottom. i'm curious what other's think since i'm kinda new to the fandom
Hey 🫶 Thank you for the question and welcome to the fandom!!! I ll try to answer your question not just based on vibes only but also on facts sooo lets get into this in the context of Patroclus and Achilles:
Why I think that Achilles topped:
1. Status and power dynamics
Achilles was the greatest Greek warrior, almost divine, the son of the sea goddess Thetis. Patroclus is ofc noble i mean he was a prince, but he is not on that divine level. In classical readings, this often means: the one that was viewed as the stronger one dominates.
(To be fair in ancient greece bottoming was always seen as something shameful and weak but i dont think that applies to Patrochilles relationship with each other)
The "Top" was often associated with social status in ancient times and Achilles is the undisputed hero sooo thats that. It kinda makes no sense that he would bottom with all that.
Now, of course, one could argue that Patroclus was older (Erastes), but given the really small age difference they had, i think its been proven often enough that Patroclus is yess indeed older but not necessarily on top. The term Erastes has nothing to do with your position in bed. Even philosophers have been arguing about this for years.
2. Achilles as Patroclus protector (that man is sooo possessive wow)
Achilles is often portrayed as the one who protects Patroclus physically while Patroclus protects Achilles emotionally. Especially in The Song of Achilles but if we focus on the Iliad, he also grieves intensely when Patroclus dies and tries to keep him from any harm before that. He even wishes for everyone to die except for him and Patroclus so they could conquer Troy alone. Just the two of them. Achilles role as Patroclus prince, general and protector scream possessive top to me. He just wants his Patroclus all to himself and who can blame him for that?
3. Vibes and character traits
Alright so Patroclus is described as a gentle, empathetic, and as i said the emotional counterpart to Achilles. He is not the "typical fighter" (he does fight well dont come for me), but rather displays a great deal of warmth, for example, in his interactions with Briseis or the animals in the Iliad.
In the context of ancient greek roles that could be associated with being the bottom but getting away from that...lets be so fr Patroclus has the prettiest bubble butt in the camp. What a waste for Achilles not to appreciate it. I feel like many people just dont want Patroclus to bottom because it makes him look weak. I think Patroclus takes strength in the fact that Achilles is sooo addicted to him and cant keep his hands or eyes off of his body. Patroclus could control Achilles with his body alone and i mean what exactly speaks against Pat being a power bottom?
Now lets take a look at Achilles. Achilles is proud, stubborn, and controlling like think of his refusal to fight after the argument with Agamemnon. Achilles is a demi god with an ego bigger than greece okayy? In the Iliad he is all about portraying his strength and being praised for it. So why wouldnt he go absolutly feral when Patroclus tells him how good he is taking him right now? Achilles needs it and its a way to release all that build up anger inside of him hahahah. Thats why he lost all his chill after Pat died.
I am not against Achilles liking to be controlled by Patroclus. I mean he trusts noone like he trusts Pat. I just think Patroclus can have control as a bottom as well and Achilles can give up control best when he doesnt feel like his pride is being disrespected again.
In the ancient greek context it is pretty obvious that Achilles topped. Ultimately, it's your decision how you want to interpret and understand them. Both are multifaceted characters who can be perceived differently. Portraying Achilles as a bottom serves to contrast his otherwise strong and supernatural demeanor (cause lets be so real: Achilles in the Iliad was NOT a twink). I don't think this contrast is necessary in the relationship, though, because Achilles only softens for Patroclus anyway. It doesn't really have anything to do with top or bottom and Patroclus is not empowered just because he could top Achilles. Nevertheless, everyone can do and understand it however they want.
This got very long so I am happy if you made it till the end. I am happy to hear your ideas or comments. 🩷
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