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PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT
THERE IS LITERALLY ONE SINGLE FRAME IN THE ENTIRE MOVIE THAT YOU CAN SEE JINU’S ABDOMEN
You’re welcome
(full vid slowed down)
CAN SOMEONE MAKE THIS FULL QUALITY I BEG OF YOU
The Character Acting is So Unsatisfying
I mean we have this, right? This creative style where the characters’ eyes and mouths can completely change shape and go extreme to match Eastern animation tropes of comedy expressions every time there’s a joke, right?
So then you know they can figure out how to “break realism” and animate in extremes when they want to make you laugh.
But they can’t do that when any other emotion is called for.
They can’t push their art when emotions that are not comedy are called for.
I think this is noticeable when Rumi is sad, or angsty, most often. She just has this same bland expression on her face:
What do I mean by “same bland expression?” I mean her eyebrows don’t affect her lateral orbital rim much at all. I’m talking about this line:
What that line really affects is the shape of the eye. Facial expressions distort the eye. They squash it or stretch it. But you argue, “In those examples, Rumi is supposed to be feeling locked down, and sort of dead inside, so of course her face would be bland and shut down, too.”
Yeah, except she has this same facial expression problem when she’s supposed to be feeling genuine romantic excitement and potential passion for a boy (not a joky reference to having a crush, but a moment where the audience is supposed to feel her growing attachment on a more mature level)
Do you see that neither his face nor her face are communicating anything more than “I’m thinking seriously about a concept, like I might if studying for a test or zoning out while driving?” And she has this same problem when she is supposed to feel loss and anguish, in one of the most emotional scenes in the movie, too.
This is when she’s begging her friends not to leave. And also, I want you to pay attention; when Mira, her friend, gets a tight close up, and the camera is on her specifically to show you what her little sobs are indicating; that she’s “breaking down” because of Rumi’s secret, THIS is the facial expression they use to go with the little sobs:
What’s going on with her mouth? Nothing. No little corner-twitches to reveal that she’s fighting back ugly tears. No eyebrow movements. No lines around the nostrils or cheeks. It didn’t have to be big but it had to be there. And instead the animators went “I guess the beat sheet says ‘Mira closes her eyes sadly’ so that’s what I’ll do.” Or something. And the same thing for Zooey: when the voice actress’ tones are shaking, when she’s saying, “you kept this from us? I knew it. I knew it was too good to be true.” This bland mess is her facial expression. Her mouth barely moves.
Oh boy. The betrayal. 🙄 <- That emoji has more raw emotion clearly communicated to the audience than the faces animated above.
It is nowhere more noticeable than in SONGS, which are like a double-edged sword. Because songs are already firing up the audience’s emotions. The melodies, beats, and voices can do that by themselves. BUT because songs amplify emotion, that should make it very important that the character’s FACE MATCHES the level of emotion you’re hearing in the song. This is a common principal even in real-life performances: have you ever seen a music video where the musician’s face wound up looking less passionate while singing than you imagined it while you were simply listening to his voice on the radio?
But maybe you don’t know what I mean because you’ve been watching this movie nonstop, and then listening to the soundtrack, and projecting the emotions that the characters voices communicate onto their actually-bland faces. So, you see what’s not actually there. Let me help you.
Here are examples of animated movies where the same basic level of raw emotion is communicated not just with the voice acting, but is MATCHED by the face and acting:
The voice actress singing this song is sobbing through it. Well guess what? The voice actresses in KPOP: Demon Hunters do that, too, with their characters’ lines. You can hear it when Rumi is explaining that she was supposed to have erased her marks before her friends saw them, begging them not to leave. You can specifically hear their breathing get unsteady.
Now look at Anna in the gif above. When she says “what comes then?” Watch her eyes roll around as if she’s looking at a foggy, uncertain haze of fear in her head. Watch her whole upper body ever-so-slightly bounce with the catch in her breathing, because she’s crying. You can see her lip tremble. You can see her eyelids twitch because she’s about to sob again and she’s barely holding it in.
None of that is happening in KPOP: Demon Hunters, even though the characters’ voice actresses were probably doing all those little micro-expressions while talking in real life. The closest we get is this:
And again, that’s one hold-on-a-crying-pose, there aren’t any subtler smaller movements of features, there’s nothing nuanced, no little details to add punctuation to the point. Just a quick cut-and-dry “fanart of a crying person” pose.
That means the emotion of the scene, of the story, is not matching the emotion of the character-acting. In a live action movie, we’d call that, “BAD ACTING.”
A smaller, less egregious example that happens throughout the whole movie is when the characters are supposed to be belting out a note. Usually, it’s Rumi. Sometimes it’s Jinu. But their mouths barely open. Their cheeks don’t swell or cave like a real singer’s would. Their bodies don’t curl around the air their releasing. And you know they could, right? You’ve seen it before in other movies, and it’s important, because it helps you believe that the pixels onscreen are genuinely producing that impactful, gut-wrenching note. Look.
Look at her tongue vibrate. Look how you can suddenly see her jaw structure because of how wide she’s opening her mouth, which stretches her cheek flesh.
Look at how Elsa’s whole body, face, and jaw move in time with the rising and falling vibrato of Idina Menzel’s voice. If I had to be poetic about it I’d say
her body acting is to the song what a leaf on a breeze is: you can’t see the breeze, but you know exactly what it’s doing because you can see the leaf that is carried by it.
That gives the song power. That adds to the emotion of the scene, it drives it home, instead of disconnecting you from it.
And if you don’t believe me, if you try to pull some crap like “oh you just only have a taste for Disney faces, this is a style choice,” no, no no it’s not. The same studio made facial expressions like these:
When you know what is good, and you appreciate it, you can see where something that falls short is bad. KPOP: Demon Hunters doesn’t do these things, either because 1) it’s lazy, or 2) what is far more likely (because we saw they can work hard on other, funnier things:
The animators are more comfortable being “funny” and “epic” (especially when angsty fear and cool-monster-temper are “epic”) than they are vulnerable or genuine with their acting.
Which is funny, considering the movie’s whole thing is about being “vulnerable” and showing off your scars.
Okay… this same movie also produced this, which you conveniently left out:
The lip quivering and the way the skin moves around his face? The trembling? There’s subtle breathing cues that play throughout too when characters are feeling emotional. Especially when Jinu’s being tormented by Gwi-Ma.
When you see this part in high quality you can actually see him shaking and nodding slightly like he’s accepting what’s about to happen. You can see the tears build. His eyes flutter but don’t actually close.
He looks unhinged and insane here. Like a shell of himself. Is that played for laughs?
I haven’t seen anyone express the same way Jinu has in any 3D animated film. Ever.
And yeah, you could argue that he’s one of the most expressive characters because we follow his suffering the most, and his VA is especially proficient in emotional acting (and it helps them to mirror his expressions)
But they absolutely nailed it with these scenes, so it seems funny to me that you left them out. So to say in one grand sweeping statement that people are “projecting” feelings onto these characters is disingenuous.
The mouth movements also have to do with the fact that the director, Maggie Kang, wanted the characters mouths to match more closely to how Koreans speak. The rounded shapes and how words come from the mouth weren’t supposed to look like normal English. There’s a whole interview about it, look it up.
Not to mention the anime aspect, which heavily influences the art style.
Throughout the movie you can clearly see when a character is disassociating or feeling defeated. The light isn’t in their eyes. That’s more realistic to that particular emotion than some performative expression of despair.
On one hand you can have the over the top, fun Disney-fied emotion, which is wonderful and definitely has its place. It’s theatrical. Fun. More appropriate for a stage play type performance. On the other, there is nuance, and realistic human expression for heavier emotional scenes. The characters in KPDH look like real people in those scenes.
You’ll note how I said, there at the end:
‘“especially when angsty fear and cool-monster-temper are “epic”
Jinu’s face in the above gif looks insane—but I’d like you to tell me what’s making it look insane. No, don’t, I’ll fill it in—it’s the lighting. It’s the lighting flash, and one very simple trick: his pupils are small. His facial expression, itself, if you remove the lighting and the yellow, is actually a pretty run-of-the-mill sexy-smile expression. Nothing groundbreaking. Nothing original.
And that is okay. It is okay that he looks non-groundbreaking and unoriginal—the point of a facial expression is not to wow you every single time. It’s just to communicate emotion. And I already said, in KPOP: Demon Hunters, the animators are good at animating jokes and angst and epicness—as long as “cool monster” can be filed under “epic.”
What is not okay is doing the bare minimum in scenes where more acting is called for, and less charicature-rote-tropey-expressions. Where humanity is called for, especially by the tone of the voice actors and actresses, humanity should be shown.
And I’ve seen the take-the-shot-for-Rumi scene in HD. What you’re describing is barely happening. And it’s barely happening in a scene where the voice acting and the moment calls for MUCH MORE.
I screen recorded it but it won’t let me add it: here:
Can you not see what I’m saying? Listen to the breathing of the voice actor. Look at the corners of the characters’ mouths. Their mouths are barely moving. He is not breathing in time with the under-duress, pained gasps of the voice actor. Nothing is happening to him. He is very slowly burning up like a piece of paper. But the beam is not changing intensity. His body is not racked with movement. Everything is stupid-still. The vibrating you’re pointing out is barely perceptible, which does not match with the sounds the voice actor is making. I mean, can’t you see that? Look at these examples of a lover dying in animation:
Whole body moving. Whole face struggling in time with the struggling breathing.
This character’s voice acting is making a lot of the same noises that Jinu’s voice actor is making. And his body is flinching and his FACE is first stretching in grimaces, and THEN slack because he’s losing all his energy. None of that is happening with Jinu.
Try an experiment for me. Find someone who knows nothing about Kpop: Demon Hunters. Mute the video. Crop it the tiniest portion in while the camera is on Jinu, so that you can’t see there’s fire hitting him from behind. (You might not even need to do that.) Shoe them the clip and see if they can tell that Jinu is not even dying, but feeling any kind of pain. See if they can tell what’s going on with him at all, just from his facial expression. I guarantee you that anybody who miraculously had never seen Tangled or Beauty & the Beast could tell right away with the same example. But you can’t with Jinu.
The corners of his mouth don’t grimace. His eyes don’t wince. His jaw doesn’t clench. This whole scene was non-emotional when I watched it because of the blank weirdness of the body language, the blocking/positioning of the characters, and most importantly, the contrast between what I was hearing in the voices and what the faces and bodies were saying. I think they do a good job of that with Jinu in the scene where he’s telling the truth about leaving his family. Sure. You’re right. But one good example doesn’t erase the failure of the whole movie. I pointed out a pattern—when it’s angst and epicness and jokes, the expressions are worked on confidently by the artists. But when something more subtle, vulnerable or more difficult is called for, they drop the ball. One scene, where Jinu’s face flesh is moving, is an exception in this movie—not the rule.
And finally—what are you talking about?!
Don’t tell me Korean acting and words coming out of their mouths looks rounded and soft—in scenes that are supposed to have this level of emotion. That’s such crap. It’s fine if the creators wanted it to look more contained, or whatever, because anime does tiny movements, but if they did? If that really was an intentional choice? It was a bad one. Because it just simply doesn’t match the emotion, and it is anything but realistic. I don’t care what race you are, what are you even saying? When you’re breaking down sobbing, you grimace. Your mouth depends the dividing lines of your cheeks. Grief and betrayal and fear and anguish are universal human emotions, and they move our faces in similar ways.
It is wholeheartedly inaccurate and super disingenuous, since that’s the word we’re using, to say Disney is “fun and theatrical” and then turn around and tell me this movie is “realistic” by comparison. The first thing I said was they know when to break the realism rule for comedy, but they don’t for emotion. And anguish IS realistic. Moving your mouth when you’re upset or in pain is realism—keeping it soft and bud-like is not. It’s stylistic, if not lazy—and it’s the wrong choice for a communicative medium.
Don’t give me that.
I’m not trying to be hateful towards you or your take. Just trying to give you extra perspective.
I still wholeheartedly disagree. But I’m not willing to continue in some lengthy diatribe to counter it.
Just looking at your profile, it appears that you’ve set out just to hate on this movie. You clearly have a lot of time on your hands to invest so much time and energy into an animated cartoon you purportedly despise. So regardless of whatever anyone wants to say, you’re gonna refute it. That’s okay. You don’t have to like the movie. I’m not gonna try force you to feel one way or another about it, like you’re so clearly set out on doing for others.
I happened to have a chunk of time on my hands at the exact moment I read your reply. But even when I’m short on time I’ll devote some to responding in conversations like this one.
Here’s why:
I believe that truth, beauty, and goodness are real things with solid defining, measurable markers. I believe the same about lies, ugliness, and evil. And I believe we weirdly treat stories and movies like they’re a category all their own, like there’s no such thing as a “bad story” or a “poorly done movie.” And that’s silly. Because stories are communication—really powerful communication. Communication can impact beliefs. Beliefs determine what we value. Values drive our actions. Actions have consequences that shape the world, and it’s a world other people have to live in and inherit.
So tldr; I think this stuff matters. I think it matters whether or not a story tells the truth, and I also think it matters whether or not a story is told well. Content and quality, both.
So yeah, you don’t have to think the same way, but I am going to point this stuff out, and if anyone’s mind is changed because what I’m saying is true, good. What else is the point of saying anything about anything?
Thanks for being civil.
And to that I agree.
My husband is a director. He writes and directs his stories. Today, he’s actually currently on set for a short film he wrote about Christ. We are a family of practicing Christians.
Because of his line of work, we have a very vested interest in film. It’s our livelihood. We naturally become incredibly invested in movies and tv shows. I even help him write his scripts. Our daughters want to go into film to pave the way for better content.
We saw this film from a heavy Christian perspective, as many have.
I know you don’t see it the same way. And that’s okay.
I like to try perceiving things through the lens of positivity, especially in this world we live in. But a healthy dose of scrutiny is often merited, I do agree.
I’m just not one to go out of my way to be negative in a world that’s already so filled with it. I like looking for the good in things. That’s just who I am. And I don’t believe it’s turning a blind eye, or putting on rose colored glasses. To me, it’s understanding that even people that don’t believe what I do still have the light of Christ in them, and can make some wonderful things that have the spirit of truth in them.
This film for me and my family was honestly a breath of fresh air, for a lot of reasons. And some don’t see it that way and that’s okay. There needs to be a balance of opinions.
I’m glad we can have a conversation like this that doesn’t turn heated. It’s refreshing.
The Character Acting is So Unsatisfying
I mean we have this, right? This creative style where the characters’ eyes and mouths can completely change shape and go extreme to match Eastern animation tropes of comedy expressions every time there’s a joke, right?
So then you know they can figure out how to “break realism” and animate in extremes when they want to make you laugh.
But they can’t do that when any other emotion is called for.
They can’t push their art when emotions that are not comedy are called for.
I think this is noticeable when Rumi is sad, or angsty, most often. She just has this same bland expression on her face:
What do I mean by “same bland expression?” I mean her eyebrows don’t affect her lateral orbital rim much at all. I’m talking about this line:
What that line really affects is the shape of the eye. Facial expressions distort the eye. They squash it or stretch it. But you argue, “In those examples, Rumi is supposed to be feeling locked down, and sort of dead inside, so of course her face would be bland and shut down, too.”
Yeah, except she has this same facial expression problem when she’s supposed to be feeling genuine romantic excitement and potential passion for a boy (not a joky reference to having a crush, but a moment where the audience is supposed to feel her growing attachment on a more mature level)
Do you see that neither his face nor her face are communicating anything more than “I’m thinking seriously about a concept, like I might if studying for a test or zoning out while driving?” And she has this same problem when she is supposed to feel loss and anguish, in one of the most emotional scenes in the movie, too.
This is when she’s begging her friends not to leave. And also, I want you to pay attention; when Mira, her friend, gets a tight close up, and the camera is on her specifically to show you what her little sobs are indicating; that she’s “breaking down” because of Rumi’s secret, THIS is the facial expression they use to go with the little sobs:
What’s going on with her mouth? Nothing. No little corner-twitches to reveal that she’s fighting back ugly tears. No eyebrow movements. No lines around the nostrils or cheeks. It didn’t have to be big but it had to be there. And instead the animators went “I guess the beat sheet says ‘Mira closes her eyes sadly’ so that’s what I’ll do.” Or something. And the same thing for Zooey: when the voice actress’ tones are shaking, when she’s saying, “you kept this from us? I knew it. I knew it was too good to be true.” This bland mess is her facial expression. Her mouth barely moves.
Oh boy. The betrayal. 🙄 <- That emoji has more raw emotion clearly communicated to the audience than the faces animated above.
It is nowhere more noticeable than in SONGS, which are like a double-edged sword. Because songs are already firing up the audience’s emotions. The melodies, beats, and voices can do that by themselves. BUT because songs amplify emotion, that should make it very important that the character’s FACE MATCHES the level of emotion you’re hearing in the song. This is a common principal even in real-life performances: have you ever seen a music video where the musician’s face wound up looking less passionate while singing than you imagined it while you were simply listening to his voice on the radio?
But maybe you don’t know what I mean because you’ve been watching this movie nonstop, and then listening to the soundtrack, and projecting the emotions that the characters voices communicate onto their actually-bland faces. So, you see what’s not actually there. Let me help you.
Here are examples of animated movies where the same basic level of raw emotion is communicated not just with the voice acting, but is MATCHED by the face and acting:
The voice actress singing this song is sobbing through it. Well guess what? The voice actresses in KPOP: Demon Hunters do that, too, with their characters’ lines. You can hear it when Rumi is explaining that she was supposed to have erased her marks before her friends saw them, begging them not to leave. You can specifically hear their breathing get unsteady.
Now look at Anna in the gif above. When she says “what comes then?” Watch her eyes roll around as if she’s looking at a foggy, uncertain haze of fear in her head. Watch her whole upper body ever-so-slightly bounce with the catch in her breathing, because she’s crying. You can see her lip tremble. You can see her eyelids twitch because she’s about to sob again and she’s barely holding it in.
None of that is happening in KPOP: Demon Hunters, even though the characters’ voice actresses were probably doing all those little micro-expressions while talking in real life. The closest we get is this:
And again, that’s one hold-on-a-crying-pose, there aren’t any subtler smaller movements of features, there’s nothing nuanced, no little details to add punctuation to the point. Just a quick cut-and-dry “fanart of a crying person” pose.
That means the emotion of the scene, of the story, is not matching the emotion of the character-acting. In a live action movie, we’d call that, “BAD ACTING.”
A smaller, less egregious example that happens throughout the whole movie is when the characters are supposed to be belting out a note. Usually, it’s Rumi. Sometimes it’s Jinu. But their mouths barely open. Their cheeks don’t swell or cave like a real singer’s would. Their bodies don’t curl around the air their releasing. And you know they could, right? You’ve seen it before in other movies, and it’s important, because it helps you believe that the pixels onscreen are genuinely producing that impactful, gut-wrenching note. Look.
Look at her tongue vibrate. Look how you can suddenly see her jaw structure because of how wide she’s opening her mouth, which stretches her cheek flesh.
Look at how Elsa’s whole body, face, and jaw move in time with the rising and falling vibrato of Idina Menzel’s voice. If I had to be poetic about it I’d say
her body acting is to the song what a leaf on a breeze is: you can’t see the breeze, but you know exactly what it’s doing because you can see the leaf that is carried by it.
That gives the song power. That adds to the emotion of the scene, it drives it home, instead of disconnecting you from it.
And if you don’t believe me, if you try to pull some crap like “oh you just only have a taste for Disney faces, this is a style choice,” no, no no it’s not. The same studio made facial expressions like these:
When you know what is good, and you appreciate it, you can see where something that falls short is bad. KPOP: Demon Hunters doesn’t do these things, either because 1) it’s lazy, or 2) what is far more likely (because we saw they can work hard on other, funnier things:
The animators are more comfortable being “funny” and “epic” (especially when angsty fear and cool-monster-temper are “epic”) than they are vulnerable or genuine with their acting.
Which is funny, considering the movie’s whole thing is about being “vulnerable” and showing off your scars.
Okay… this same movie also produced this, which you conveniently left out:
The lip quivering and the way the skin moves around his face? The trembling? There’s subtle breathing cues that play throughout too when characters are feeling emotional. Especially when Jinu’s being tormented by Gwi-Ma.
When you see this part in high quality you can actually see him shaking and nodding slightly like he’s accepting what’s about to happen. You can see the tears build. His eyes flutter but don’t actually close.
He looks unhinged and insane here. Like a shell of himself. Is that played for laughs?
I haven’t seen anyone express the same way Jinu has in any 3D animated film. Ever.
And yeah, you could argue that he’s one of the most expressive characters because we follow his suffering the most, and his VA is especially proficient in emotional acting (and it helps them to mirror his expressions)
But they absolutely nailed it with these scenes, so it seems funny to me that you left them out. So to say in one grand sweeping statement that people are “projecting” feelings onto these characters is disingenuous.
The mouth movements also have to do with the fact that the director, Maggie Kang, wanted the characters mouths to match more closely to how Koreans speak. The rounded shapes and how words come from the mouth weren’t supposed to look like normal English. There’s a whole interview about it, look it up.
Not to mention the anime aspect, which heavily influences the art style.
Throughout the movie you can clearly see when a character is disassociating or feeling defeated. The light isn’t in their eyes. That’s more realistic to that particular emotion than some performative expression of despair.
On one hand you can have the over the top, fun Disney-fied emotion, which is wonderful and definitely has its place. It’s theatrical. Fun. More appropriate for a stage play type performance. On the other, there is nuance, and realistic human expression for heavier emotional scenes. The characters in KPDH look like real people in those scenes.
You’ll note how I said, there at the end:
‘“especially when angsty fear and cool-monster-temper are “epic”
Jinu’s face in the above gif looks insane—but I’d like you to tell me what’s making it look insane. No, don’t, I’ll fill it in—it’s the lighting. It’s the lighting flash, and one very simple trick: his pupils are small. His facial expression, itself, if you remove the lighting and the yellow, is actually a pretty run-of-the-mill sexy-smile expression. Nothing groundbreaking. Nothing original.
And that is okay. It is okay that he looks non-groundbreaking and unoriginal—the point of a facial expression is not to wow you every single time. It’s just to communicate emotion. And I already said, in KPOP: Demon Hunters, the animators are good at animating jokes and angst and epicness—as long as “cool monster” can be filed under “epic.”
What is not okay is doing the bare minimum in scenes where more acting is called for, and less charicature-rote-tropey-expressions. Where humanity is called for, especially by the tone of the voice actors and actresses, humanity should be shown.
And I’ve seen the take-the-shot-for-Rumi scene in HD. What you’re describing is barely happening. And it’s barely happening in a scene where the voice acting and the moment calls for MUCH MORE.
I screen recorded it but it won’t let me add it: here:
Can you not see what I’m saying? Listen to the breathing of the voice actor. Look at the corners of the characters’ mouths. Their mouths are barely moving. He is not breathing in time with the under-duress, pained gasps of the voice actor. Nothing is happening to him. He is very slowly burning up like a piece of paper. But the beam is not changing intensity. His body is not racked with movement. Everything is stupid-still. The vibrating you’re pointing out is barely perceptible, which does not match with the sounds the voice actor is making. I mean, can’t you see that? Look at these examples of a lover dying in animation:
Whole body moving. Whole face struggling in time with the struggling breathing.
This character’s voice acting is making a lot of the same noises that Jinu’s voice actor is making. And his body is flinching and his FACE is first stretching in grimaces, and THEN slack because he’s losing all his energy. None of that is happening with Jinu.
Try an experiment for me. Find someone who knows nothing about Kpop: Demon Hunters. Mute the video. Crop it the tiniest portion in while the camera is on Jinu, so that you can’t see there’s fire hitting him from behind. (You might not even need to do that.) Shoe them the clip and see if they can tell that Jinu is not even dying, but feeling any kind of pain. See if they can tell what’s going on with him at all, just from his facial expression. I guarantee you that anybody who miraculously had never seen Tangled or Beauty & the Beast could tell right away with the same example. But you can’t with Jinu.
The corners of his mouth don’t grimace. His eyes don’t wince. His jaw doesn’t clench. This whole scene was non-emotional when I watched it because of the blank weirdness of the body language, the blocking/positioning of the characters, and most importantly, the contrast between what I was hearing in the voices and what the faces and bodies were saying. I think they do a good job of that with Jinu in the scene where he’s telling the truth about leaving his family. Sure. You’re right. But one good example doesn’t erase the failure of the whole movie. I pointed out a pattern—when it’s angst and epicness and jokes, the expressions are worked on confidently by the artists. But when something more subtle, vulnerable or more difficult is called for, they drop the ball. One scene, where Jinu’s face flesh is moving, is an exception in this movie—not the rule.
And finally—what are you talking about?!
Don’t tell me Korean acting and words coming out of their mouths looks rounded and soft—in scenes that are supposed to have this level of emotion. That’s such crap. It’s fine if the creators wanted it to look more contained, or whatever, because anime does tiny movements, but if they did? If that really was an intentional choice? It was a bad one. Because it just simply doesn’t match the emotion, and it is anything but realistic. I don’t care what race you are, what are you even saying? When you’re breaking down sobbing, you grimace. Your mouth depends the dividing lines of your cheeks. Grief and betrayal and fear and anguish are universal human emotions, and they move our faces in similar ways.
It is wholeheartedly inaccurate and super disingenuous, since that’s the word we’re using, to say Disney is “fun and theatrical” and then turn around and tell me this movie is “realistic” by comparison. The first thing I said was they know when to break the realism rule for comedy, but they don’t for emotion. And anguish IS realistic. Moving your mouth when you’re upset or in pain is realism—keeping it soft and bud-like is not. It’s stylistic, if not lazy—and it’s the wrong choice for a communicative medium.
Don’t give me that.
I’m not trying to be hateful towards you or your take. Just trying to give you extra perspective.
I still wholeheartedly disagree. But I’m not willing to continue in some lengthy diatribe to counter it.
Just looking at your profile, it appears that you’ve set out just to hate on this movie. You clearly have a lot of time on your hands to invest so much time and energy into an animated cartoon you purportedly despise. So regardless of whatever anyone wants to say, you’re gonna refute it. That’s okay. You don’t have to like the movie. I’m not gonna try force you to feel one way or another about it, like you’re so clearly set out on doing for others.
The Character Acting is So Unsatisfying
I mean we have this, right? This creative style where the characters’ eyes and mouths can completely change shape and go extreme to match Eastern animation tropes of comedy expressions every time there’s a joke, right?
So then you know they can figure out how to “break realism” and animate in extremes when they want to make you laugh.
But they can’t do that when any other emotion is called for.
They can’t push their art when emotions that are not comedy are called for.
I think this is noticeable when Rumi is sad, or angsty, most often. She just has this same bland expression on her face:
What do I mean by “same bland expression?” I mean her eyebrows don’t affect her lateral orbital rim much at all. I’m talking about this line:
What that line really affects is the shape of the eye. Facial expressions distort the eye. They squash it or stretch it. But you argue, “In those examples, Rumi is supposed to be feeling locked down, and sort of dead inside, so of course her face would be bland and shut down, too.”
Yeah, except she has this same facial expression problem when she’s supposed to be feeling genuine romantic excitement and potential passion for a boy (not a joky reference to having a crush, but a moment where the audience is supposed to feel her growing attachment on a more mature level)
Do you see that neither his face nor her face are communicating anything more than “I’m thinking seriously about a concept, like I might if studying for a test or zoning out while driving?” And she has this same problem when she is supposed to feel loss and anguish, in one of the most emotional scenes in the movie, too.
This is when she’s begging her friends not to leave. And also, I want you to pay attention; when Mira, her friend, gets a tight close up, and the camera is on her specifically to show you what her little sobs are indicating; that she’s “breaking down” because of Rumi’s secret, THIS is the facial expression they use to go with the little sobs:
What’s going on with her mouth? Nothing. No little corner-twitches to reveal that she’s fighting back ugly tears. No eyebrow movements. No lines around the nostrils or cheeks. It didn’t have to be big but it had to be there. And instead the animators went “I guess the beat sheet says ‘Mira closes her eyes sadly’ so that’s what I’ll do.” Or something. And the same thing for Zooey: when the voice actress’ tones are shaking, when she’s saying, “you kept this from us? I knew it. I knew it was too good to be true.” This bland mess is her facial expression. Her mouth barely moves.
Oh boy. The betrayal. 🙄 <- That emoji has more raw emotion clearly communicated to the audience than the faces animated above.
It is nowhere more noticeable than in SONGS, which are like a double-edged sword. Because songs are already firing up the audience’s emotions. The melodies, beats, and voices can do that by themselves. BUT because songs amplify emotion, that should make it very important that the character’s FACE MATCHES the level of emotion you’re hearing in the song. This is a common principal even in real-life performances: have you ever seen a music video where the musician’s face wound up looking less passionate while singing than you imagined it while you were simply listening to his voice on the radio?
But maybe you don’t know what I mean because you’ve been watching this movie nonstop, and then listening to the soundtrack, and projecting the emotions that the characters voices communicate onto their actually-bland faces. So, you see what’s not actually there. Let me help you.
Here are examples of animated movies where the same basic level of raw emotion is communicated not just with the voice acting, but is MATCHED by the face and acting:
The voice actress singing this song is sobbing through it. Well guess what? The voice actresses in KPOP: Demon Hunters do that, too, with their characters’ lines. You can hear it when Rumi is explaining that she was supposed to have erased her marks before her friends saw them, begging them not to leave. You can specifically hear their breathing get unsteady.
Now look at Anna in the gif above. When she says “what comes then?” Watch her eyes roll around as if she’s looking at a foggy, uncertain haze of fear in her head. Watch her whole upper body ever-so-slightly bounce with the catch in her breathing, because she’s crying. You can see her lip tremble. You can see her eyelids twitch because she’s about to sob again and she’s barely holding it in.
None of that is happening in KPOP: Demon Hunters, even though the characters’ voice actresses were probably doing all those little micro-expressions while talking in real life. The closest we get is this:
And again, that’s one hold-on-a-crying-pose, there aren’t any subtler smaller movements of features, there’s nothing nuanced, no little details to add punctuation to the point. Just a quick cut-and-dry “fanart of a crying person” pose.
That means the emotion of the scene, of the story, is not matching the emotion of the character-acting. In a live action movie, we’d call that, “BAD ACTING.”
A smaller, less egregious example that happens throughout the whole movie is when the characters are supposed to be belting out a note. Usually, it’s Rumi. Sometimes it’s Jinu. But their mouths barely open. Their cheeks don’t swell or cave like a real singer’s would. Their bodies don’t curl around the air their releasing. And you know they could, right? You’ve seen it before in other movies, and it’s important, because it helps you believe that the pixels onscreen are genuinely producing that impactful, gut-wrenching note. Look.
Look at her tongue vibrate. Look how you can suddenly see her jaw structure because of how wide she’s opening her mouth, which stretches her cheek flesh.
Look at how Elsa’s whole body, face, and jaw move in time with the rising and falling vibrato of Idina Menzel’s voice. If I had to be poetic about it I’d say
her body acting is to the song what a leaf on a breeze is: you can’t see the breeze, but you know exactly what it’s doing because you can see the leaf that is carried by it.
That gives the song power. That adds to the emotion of the scene, it drives it home, instead of disconnecting you from it.
And if you don’t believe me, if you try to pull some crap like “oh you just only have a taste for Disney faces, this is a style choice,” no, no no it’s not. The same studio made facial expressions like these:
When you know what is good, and you appreciate it, you can see where something that falls short is bad. KPOP: Demon Hunters doesn’t do these things, either because 1) it’s lazy, or 2) what is far more likely (because we saw they can work hard on other, funnier things:
The animators are more comfortable being “funny” and “epic” (especially when angsty fear and cool-monster-temper are “epic”) than they are vulnerable or genuine with their acting.
Which is funny, considering the movie’s whole thing is about being “vulnerable” and showing off your scars.
Okay… this same movie also produced this, which you conveniently left out:
The lip quivering and the way the skin moves around his face? The trembling? There’s subtle breathing cues that play throughout too when characters are feeling emotional. Especially when Jinu’s being tormented by Gwi-Ma.
When you see this part in high quality you can actually see him shaking and nodding slightly like he’s accepting what’s about to happen. You can see the tears build. His eyes flutter but don’t actually close.
He looks unhinged and insane here. Like a shell of himself. Is that played for laughs?
I haven’t seen anyone express the same way Jinu has in any 3D animated film. Ever.
And yeah, you could argue that he’s one of the most expressive characters because we follow his suffering the most, and his VA is especially proficient in emotional acting (and it helps them to mirror his expressions)
But they absolutely nailed it with these scenes, so it seems funny to me that you left them out. So to say in one grand sweeping statement that people are “projecting” feelings onto these characters is disingenuous.
The mouth movements also have to do with the fact that the director, Maggie Kang, wanted the characters mouths to match more closely to how Koreans speak. The rounded shapes and how words come from the mouth weren’t supposed to look like normal English. There’s a whole interview about it, look it up.
Not to mention the anime aspect, which heavily influences the art style.
Throughout the movie you can clearly see when a character is disassociating or feeling defeated. The light isn’t in their eyes. That’s more realistic to that particular emotion than some performative expression of despair.
On one hand you can have the over the top, fun Disney-fied emotion, which is wonderful and definitely has its place. It’s theatrical. Fun. More appropriate for a stage play type performance. On the other, there is nuance, and realistic human expression for heavier emotional scenes. The characters in KPDH look like real people in those scenes.
He made it 🥺
The promise.
The faith in that promise.
The way they both passed out the same is so funny to me… the apple really doesn’t fall far from the tree
This is how I'll keep them in my heart - safe, happy, and together, always ✧₊⁺
This show got me through the worst years of my life, providing so much joy, comfort, and inspiration, I'll never have enough words to express how grateful I am to everyone who's been a part of creating it, and the friends I made along the way.
And that's a wrap! What a great finale! BAD BATCH FOREVER!!!
OH MY GOSH?!?!
Are we getting more TBB content????
3 BINGOS I think I did pretty well this season!
First Hello & Last Goodbye
Wrecker got SO WRECKED that his skin is showing… but on the left it shows him with a bandage underneath so either somehow they have time to treat him next ep before storming Tantiss OR THIS IS THE MAX THAT HAPPENS TO HIM AND HE SURVIVES AND GETS TREATED AFTER THE BATTLE??! 😫
Thinking that Echo and Emerie meeting is setting up a larger story to be told in some sort of spin-off. That way if they do go the Rex and his clone rebellion route, they can have a primary female character (among all the male clones) involved who can add a lot to the story. Can you imagine how amazing Rex, Echo, Emerie, Gregor, and Howzer will be? In their search for Wolffe and Cody?? With some cameos of the remaining Batch (whoever that may be🫠) and Ahsoka? I really think this is going to be the next clone story!
I’M-
Oh NO