Okay non-European tumblr, I’m gonna explain to you why ‘white’ isn’t as simple here as it is in the rest of the world
- Shades of white in Europe range from ‘freshly fallen snow’ to ‘I am frequently mistaken as being from the Middle East’
- White European is a thing. When you fill out a form, under ethnicity, there are several options for white; white British, white European, white other. Because people make that distinction
- There are Europeans who don’t class their ethnicity as their skin colour, but as their nationality. I have family who don’t think of themselves as white, they just think of themselves as Italian and don’t really give much thought to their skin colour
- People here in Britain always question if darker skinned white Europeans are ‘actually white’. I get it a lot myself. My response is always ‘well I’m not anything else, so obviously I must be’
- Despite being white, a lot of Europeans from Italy, Greece, Spain etc, don’t feel white in the traditional sense. We’re not white like white British people. We’re not white like white Americans. We’re our own white. White British is one thing. White Italian is another thing. White Greek is another, etc
- Which is why we have this notion here in Europe of ‘nationality over race’. Being white isn’t as important as where you’re from
- So this really only becomes an issue if you’re an immigrant
- So being white in Europe doesn’t save you from racial discrimination, because sure, you’re technically white, but you’re not white white. Not the right white
- Here in England, Europeans with really blatantly foreign names, such as myself, find it more difficult to get job interviews, because they take one look at our name and don’t bother reading the rest of the CV. A guy I know was actually told by his boss to reduce the pile of CVs he had by ‘chucking away any with a name you can’t fucking pronounce’
- And then even when you do get an interview, half the time you walk into the joint several shades darker than everyone else and feel like you’ve walked into the ‘Swedish supermodel’ clubhouse and you just know you’re not getting hired
This is all basic stuff and it’s very much taken for granted here. Race and ethnicity are not as clear cut, so it can be very confusing for non-Europeans to wrap their heads around. Which is fine. But I implore you to stay in your lane, because when you say things like ‘no white person anywhere in the world ever knows what it’s like to face racial discrimination’, it’s really fucking offensive to all of the European immigrants who are denied jobs, harassed by the police and beaten by racists, because foreign is foreign to these people, and they don’t give a shit if you’re technically white. So when you mean white American, say white American.
This doesn’t just apply to “darker skin” Europeans either (which I’m sure some Americans would argue are POC for some reason or other). Try being slavic in Western Europe. Hell, try being Sinti or Roma in any part of Europe.
Especially in the UK you can be as white as you like but if you aren’t from Britain (or in some cases just England) then you face discrimination. It really isn’t that clear cut in Europe and it drives me mad when people say white people can’t experience racism because that’s such a US-centric idea.
And if you’re from anywhere in South-East Europe then you should prepare for your country to be slandered in every UK paper. Seriously, you can’t turn on the news, go on the internet, read a newspaper, without being told how Romanian, Ukrainian, Polish people are a drain on the UK’s resources and they should be banned from the country. And guess what?
(That’s Mila Kunis. She was born in the Ukraine.)
(Sebastian Stan. From Constanta, Romania.)
(Mia Wasikowska, from Poland)
(Nina Dobrev, who was born in Bulgaria.)
They are white! Just because they are white, it doesn’t mean people from their countries cannot face horrible discrimination, and it doesn’t mean that they can’t be constantly told that they don’t work as hard as people from Western Europe, and that they don’t deserve basic human rights.
So just before you force your ignorance onto people who don’t hold the same views as you due to where they live operating in a different way, just remember that not everybody lives in America.
Here it is guys, the post that finally puts what I’ve been trying to say for far too long into words!
…I didn’t know Sebastian Stan was Romanian.
But as somebody who has lived in England and the US, I can vouch for all of this. The race issues in Europe and the race issues in the US are not the same.
For the last few years, there has been an awful backlash against immigrants from Poland, with some of the same language used that Americans use about “Mexicans” (By which, half the time, they mean anyone from south of the US/Mexico border).
It’s worth understanding that
1. Racism and discrimination are everywhere.
2. They don’t take the same form everywhere.
I have lived in England for over 10 years now, and can confirm all of the above. As soon as I open my mouth people can tell, of course, that I was not born and raised British.
I was yelled at in the street because a lady thought I was Polish. People have pushed their chairs into my parents and insulted them in a restaurant because they were recognised as Germans.
Being white is not that cut and dry over here.
And being “socially” white as opposed to just pale skinned evolves over time. I mean, there have been times in America when Irish and Italian people have not been considered “white”.
READ THIS POST IF YOURE AMERICAN
I’m American and this is the FIRST time I’ve ever heard any of this. I always think I’m up to date on world issues but wow I am not. Thank you to everyone for sharing!
About discrimination between nations in Europe, speaking Finnish and Sami languages in schools in Sweden was forbidden from students because Finns and Sami people were considered to be the lower race. Of course Europe has racism against black people, but yes, thinking about Europeans being “white” as whole is weird because a white Finn and a white Greek person couldn’t be more apart with their cultures.
Yes, all of this, and let’s not forget people like the Finnish speaking Finns have historically and from some cultural standpoints a lot more common with native Americans and the Asians and Blacks in America than white Americans, despite our recent “rise” in the social rank of race.
Less than 100 years ago we were considered mongoloid (and while it’s not entirely wrong, though Uralic or North-West Asian and Caucasian mix would be lot more accurate), and were oppressed by another nation (Russia) that tried to enforce cultural and linguistic genocide on us, and before that we were oppressed and practically enslaved by Sweden, not all that differently as in any other colonized nation–which we were for 800 years.
For all intents and purposes, our “whites” are the Swedish-speaking Finns, who to this day continue to be a lot more privileged than the Finnish-speaking Finns, on average.
In Italy, Southern people are considered less than Northern people and I, as a Northern people, can assure you sometimes it’s pretty bad. Mostly thanks to an idiotic right wing party that thinks that Italy should be divided in two: over the Po and below the Po (our longest river). They even think our ancestors are Celts lmao. Also a lot of people from the South are “less white” (again it’s stupid but whatever it’s just to make you understand), because they have ancestors from Africa so they are mixed, therefore their skin isn’t white as snow.
Also in Italy people from slavic countries are often victim to xenophobia, people are always ready to see romanians/albanian/russians…etc as culprits for everything, and it’s not unusual to hear someone says “this hairstyle makes you look like an albanian!” or “why are you going out dressed as a romanian” yeah they use slavic people as an insult bc people are led to think that they come here just to steal everything from us. And guess what most of them are white as snowflakes!
I’d like to point out that also italian people have faced discrimination from other european countries. We were, and sadly often still are, always seen as part of the mafia and therefore dangerous, or inferior and poor (y’all can find signs saying pretty nasty stuff online, and i’m leaving this here even tho it’s in Italian), i’ve heard a lady telling his son to stay away from me and my family because we were speaking italian and so we could do “bad things” to him and there were times when in shops we were made feel not welcome because we are italian…..and guess what my family is white.
So please when you are outside the us don’t try to apply your “racial standards” bc they are not valid in europe.
Bless this post forever and ever
The Scottish, Irish, and Welsh are “white” peoples yet have a long history of oppression by white England. Even to this day you’ll hear celebs from those places (which are in the UK or even on the same island as England) discuss the same things as a POC actor in America, like “there are very few roles for us on TV” or “I only got the job because I changed my name and accent” and “I’ve had to play a servant or a stereotype for most of my career.”
This discrimination may seem less bizarre to Americans when you understand that the white minorities of the UK are descendants of peoples who lived there long before the Romans marched in and set English history as we know it in motion. It’s not about skin color, it’s about conquest, as usual.
yall really gonna use Mila Kunis as an example of a Ukrainian who faces discrimination and leave out the fact that she’s Jewish?
When Heroes first came out in Australia, I was watching it with my then-partner, my sister, and a couple of friends. My then-partner, who is American, mentioned that the show had faced criticism because nearly all the main characters were white.
“What are you talking about?” say my sister and I. ‘There are two Italian guys RIGHT THERE.”
“OMG you cannot say Italian people are not white,” he says.
“Yes we fucking can,” says the Italian friend watching the show with us, deeply offended.
And then we had to pause it and a lot of complex explanations ensued. (Including the fact that Greek and Italian people generally aren’t considered White in Australia and in fact many a Nonna will smack you if you suggest otherwise.)
Basically, ‘white’ is a category upon which no two cultures/countries can agree on the definition, they all think they have the only possible definition, and it usually boils down to Preferred Flavours of Bigotry.
I mean, I’m of sufficiently Irish descent not to have been considered White in New York at certain periods, and I’m so pink and white I couldn’t get stopped at an airport if I tried, so basically it’s all bullshit and ‘white’ is like ‘normal’… everyone thinks they know what it is, but it doesn’t actually exist except as a tool for dividing people up into The Good Ones and The Rubbish Ones.
The fashion identities in the context of a wider conversation about American nationhood, to whom it belongs and what belonging means. Race a
A really good book on the historical whitening of European ethnicities in America ^^^^^
I love this post. It is important to remember this and I wish more Americans were aware of how nuanced race is in European standards.
Personally, I am quite pale, and in America that could be considered “good for me”. It goes as far as people saying that I am white and that is that.
In Europe, I am Southeast Slavic, I am Serbian; which gives me more problems than it solves in, for example, Western Europe. It certainly gives me problems in other areas in the Balkans. It would probably give me problems in the UK.
(Despite being predominantly “white”, Serbs have experienced much discrimination and opression throughout history.)
Just because I am “white” does not mean I cannot experience issues, and this goes for all people. Just because one is [insert race] does not mean they cannot experience racism.