#anti timbern

[mycoolfixations]

I get why it's like this, but I am so tired of basically all of the recent Tim content we get having something to do with Bernard. Like, I really truly get why but I still really dislike it. It feels like when you are trying to hang out with your friend but their shitty boyfriend keeps tagging along, and they are constantly like "Isn't he great?"

[theofficialuriel]

There’s a lot of valid reasons to not like Bernard but the people who call him a “creep” bc he called Dana hot are smoking something.

As someone whose friends used to constantly call their mom hot, I promise you, it is not that serious.

[sparklesemen]

BRO BERNARD HOLDS TIM BACK MORE AS A CHARACTER THEN STEPH YALL JUST LIKE YAOI

[lemonlimestar]

personally, i don’t understand how someone can like [post-crisis, as this is a mostly post-crisis blog] tim & just… not acknowledge his deep relationships with certain people?? sorry, but we wouldn’t have tim drake without dick grayson. despite his many, many, many, many flaws, bruce and tim have a strong enough bond that tim uprooted to go search for him & that’s not even mentioning the push and pull of his relationships with both jack and bruce. points at that bit in contagion where he asks that jack knows he didn’t love bruce more than him. and need i remind you that he also loves his mom?? he reiterated that he wanted his parents to be back home with him Because he loved them! and they loved him! and in that same plot point (contagion) he dreams that she’s back and cooking the meals she used to when he was younger :( like guys christmas eve was literally his mommy’s funeral!!! if u even care!!!

(u don’t or i wouldn’t be making this post LMAO)

timsteph truther or Not, the impact she has on him can’t just be swept to the wayside for mediocre at best yaoi (megfitz i am looking at u). they’re best friends! and despite all the grief they put each other through they still cling to each other! tim makes wally take him all the way back to gotham during nml to make sure he’s there when steph gives birth!

same goes with him & kon + yj/cassie & bart in general. they are clingy and territorial and clingy and tim is their best friend (and he thinks of them the same). like i’m sorry. ik i joke about this but genuinely how are we glossing over damn near 100 fucking cloning attempts. they were his colors??? bro. ik they bicker in yj98 but brother i’m gonna be real with u they All do that. they’re all passively mean to each other within their friendship & banter & such, kon and tim just so happen to also have the problems with tim’s secret identity more upfront. (which cools instantly after it’s kinda resolved for them in wwyj). timcassie will never read as romantic to me, but does it have to be romantic for the way they fell into each other after kon (and then bart :[) dies to be compelling?? u wouldn’t know this bc it’s very unlikely that u fall into this camp and have also read impulse 95, but did u even know that tim is one of the first people bart turns to when he’s stuck on an issue?? did u know that kon does the same on his solo?? did u know that cassie jokingly(lovingly) calls him her sidekick??

i just feel like the many friendships and relationships that tim has is part of what makes him himself. he’s the team-up guy!! he loves his family and friends!! his closest friends are family to him!! and this isn’t getting into his relationships that are usually ignored entirely or straight up made one dimensional (babs, cass, helena, damian, etc, etc) (to which i would say read nml, read last laugh, read fresh blood, read cry of the huntress, read cry for blood, read gates of gotham)

[notfeelingthyaster]

years have gone by and i finally feel free to say: timberkon is (mostly) a consolation prize/conciliator ship for timkon fans

[faemorrigan]

sorry, i don't know who else to rant about this to and i love the posts you make on jayjon. i recently got into the ship and am annoyed by how much of a lack of fan content there is for them especially in comparison to timber. ex) there's so much more fics for them than there is for jayjon on ao3 even though the relationships started around the same time. i haven't read much timber in the comics but are they really that much better written than jayjon? is that why? as a poc i hate to think that racism is the biggest factor on why, but i could also see it playing a big part...

Youuuuu accidentally hit on something that Jayjonners have been talking about amongst ourselves for ages.

No, they are NOT better written. I say this as someone who does enjoy timbern from time to time, timbern is actually written notably worse. Megfitz, who is their primary writer, is... well, she's not great at her job, and she often falls into certain trappings that I find.... mm. I don't want to dunk too much on her & her writing here but I Have Complaints.

The reason they're so popular compared to Jayjon is twofold:

Yeah, its 100% the racism thing. Like, white favoritism in DC fandom is already bad, its especially bad with our canon gay pairings. Jayjon get very little, Jackson/Ha'wea gets NOTHING, despite both of these ships showing up more frequently or more recently than Timbern. But also, I will say, and some People Forget but I did not: A lot of Timbern fans were more than happy to engage in fandom racism towards Jay & his fans if it made them look better. Back in the day there was a lot of "lol we're soooo much better than jayjon guys dont worry" which in retrospect is FUCKING HILARIOUS but in the moment was very frustrating. White characters who are significantly less developed than their non-white counterparts will inherently be assumed to be secretly interesting, while characters of color who genuinely are a full breakfast will have their every little thing nitpicked and be labelled as 'boring' by default. This is doubly true for a character like Jay, who's race is extremely central to who he is and how his story is read.

Its also because sadly, Bats are just more popular than GOD. Any ship that has a bat in it will inevitably do better than its non-bat counterpart, because DC and DC fandom push the batfam sooooooooo fucking hard. This is an unfortunate fact of life in the DC fandom, if youre like me and you dont care so much for bats or any of the popular batships, you are in for a terrible time and I am sorry. Hilariously, DC itself also was REALLY pushing Timbern at the time. Despite TDR not selling very well, Bernard had an adaptation in Titans, while Jay has not yet ever been adapted into a movie or TV adaptation. YET. Truly it is a matter of time, so they better not fuck it up or i'll appear in their house

But the thing is, fanon popularity does not translate into the metric DC actually cares about: Sales. TD:R did extremely poorly and was cancelled after ten issues, while pretty much every teen Jon comic has reliably stayed within the top 100. Despite being a tie-in comic utilizing several c-listers, basically a recipe for guaranteed shitty placement, Absolute Power: Super Son hit around 86 on the list, which was better than any of us expected it to do. So even if fanon content might take awhile to catch up, at the end of the day, slow and steady wins the race. Pre-order Secret Six, amen.

I will also say jayjonners tend to keep to ourselves. People are mean! Like, really mean. A lot of our fan-content tends to be hidden away in private group chats and accounts, just because we get people mocking us for.... breathing. Once you start Posting about jayjon though, one of us will usually take notice and adopt you into our little circle.

[greenribbonred]

last reblog had thinking about a post i've been thinking of in my mind about mastermind and anti-hero being exactly how i interpret MY fanon blorbo tim drake. really most of midnights is very tim to me! annnnnnd i know a lot of people don't fw taylor swift and her music gets overused in fandom yada yada so click below at your own discretion

this isn't a full well written analysis just some screenshots and yapping <3

my favorite tim interpretation is going full-send tactician mastermind. his ability to balance multiple personas to an extent that surpasses bruce is one of the reasons i find him so fascinating. it's fun to put tim in situations because he's so adaptable. if you ask one question, change one thing about canon the tree diagram gains twenty branches almost instantly. as for the taylor connection; midnights to me is an album that explores the different personas taylor has worn over the course of her career but also just day to day, even in the present.

these are just some lyrics on a few midnights songs that scream tim to me!

mastermind

first line peak bat logic, but especially tim and bruce

i mean. the first two and last two lines get to the heart of it, don't they?

anti-hero

i love this verse being interpreted for tim for like. several reasons being that it blends canon, headcanon and meta analysis perfectly to me? 1. "i have this thing where i get older, but just never wiser" [tim the perpetual 17 year old jokes here] 2. "midnights become my afternoons" vigilante life 3. "when my depression [cont...]" figuratively tim has many skeletons in his closet and has lost many loved ones (whether it be permanent or temporary) and it weighs on him. yes, a strong sense of duty is superhero 101 but i like to imagine tim's complex about meeting expectations and living up to the robin name in a way that's all consuming. also very much imagining the panel of him hallucinating dick and jason here.

end up in crisis = the weight of everything caving in on him since even the best of the best are doomed to fail at some point.

impending crisis -> everyone getting tired of his shit for a minute

anti timbern content potentially lmao?? midnight rain is exactly why i don't think their relationship is going to work in the end

midnight rain

if "my town was a wasteland" and "pageant queens and big pretenders" isn't gotham & vigilantism in general idk what is

tim's need to overextend himself in all aspects of his life is not conducive to a long term comfortable life, and while he does want love would he give up everything for it... i don't think so.

"i guess sometimes we all get just what we wanted, just what we wanted" these lines read to me as someone who wished for a relationship that ticks all of the boxes instead of actually wanting that person. ultimately this is why i think most civilian relationships wouldn't work for tim. the appeal of normalcy can only last so long when you're someone who juggles so many personas. not to mention, he's a public figure in both of his main lives.

dear reader

"i prefer hiding in plain sight" = the tim drake ceo persona "no one sees when you lose when you're playing solitaire" = i think this plays well into the mastermind/game theory part of tim's personality. you can't lay a trap on yourself the way you can others.

you're on your own kid

the entire bridge, really i like to think of this bridge as divided between tim drake, ceo and red robin, vigilante "i gave my blood, sweat and tears for this i hosted parties and starved my body like i'd be saved by a perfect kiss" as much work he's put into his vigilante life he's also poured into his corporate life. i actually really like the fact tim has dated multiple people in canon and has a more complicated love life. sorry to the timberns again but this is just another hit against them for me SORRY.

"i looked around in a blood-soaked gown and i saw something they can't take away" = perfect metaphor for his transition from robin to red robin. red robin is his identity that came from years of work.

if you read this post um. thanks. sorry i didn't have the brain power to make this an actually well-written, articulate analysis. i just wanted to clip together a bunch of lyrics and captions.

[mycoolfixations]

My problems with Bernard

What is this-

This is a critique specifically of official material that DC has put out of the character Bernard Dowd and/or the relationship between Bernard and Tim. This is not a criticism of anyone who likes the character or ships TimBer. My philosophy on fan content is Laissez-faire/’don't like, don't read’. That being said, I do believe that official material SHOULD be analyzed and critiqued, so that is exactly what I am going to do.

My Biases and my thoughts on Tim's previous/fanon favorite romantic interests-

I get that a lot of the Bernard hate just comes down to shipping wars or homophobia. I just wanna put out there that this is not what this post is. First of all, I'm queer (I know that doesn't mean I can't be homophobic, but you get what I mean), but second of all, I have no "OTP" when it comes to Tim Drake. I do, however, like some of the other common Tim Drake ships more than Timber. I'm going to give a real quick blurb for each, but feel free to skip this section, as it's only tangentially related to my Bernard critique.

I liked the idea of TimSteph as high school sweethearts who were learning how to have a non-toxic relationship together, and sometimes failing, though Chuck Dixon often failed in writing them in a way that actually felt satisfying (just as a side note fuck Chuck Dixon). I will say though, just to be transparent, that I am a big Stephanie fan (Again, fuck you Chuck Dixon, I'm stealing her from you, you can't have her, you know what you did!). all and all I don't mind them as a couple, but I think they have also been written poorly in the past (I won't go into it because that's not what this post is about but Stephanie has had a history of being poor writing stemming from her writers' misogyny)

I do like some of the fan works people have made for TimKon, and I do like the subtextual (whether intentional or not) one-sided TimKon we got in some comics, but again, I'm not dying on the TimKon hill or anything. Well, maybe on the one-sided TimKon hill because I love the drama of it, and being in love with your straight or "straight" best friend is almost a fundamental queer experience. I also really liked the messy thing Tim and Cassie had for a bit because I love the drama and also the subtext of it. (Can you tell I liked a good portion of Infinite Crisis?)

I liked TimTam (great ship name, btw) in the Red Robin comic run, but I felt like their breakup was a satisfying conclusion to that romantic dynamic. Then my opinion of the rest of Tim's various romantic interests throughout the years ranges from 'somewhat enjoyed but basically couldn't care less about' to 'actively disliking'.

All that being said, of course, most of these relationships/the things I liked about these relationships have been retconned away anyway. You will notice though that rather than being a fan of the ships in general I'm much more interested in how these dynamics create drama/narrative tension and how successfully that tension is resolved (not to say anyone is wrong for liking ships in general I'm just letting you know my biases so you know what point of view I'm coming at this from, I do ship other characters just not really Tim Drake)

So, why do these relationships work (in my opinion, and at least before the retconning), but Bernard falls short (at least to me)? Here are my theories.

The same face syndrome.-

Genuinely my biggest pet peeve off the bat (Ha!). Bernard's designs after his reintroduction have been... bad. Look at how Bernard is drawn pre-reintroduction; he looks like his own guy and not like he and Tim were both made in the same paper doll dress-up style game. It's unsettling. (I know some artists had a case of same face syndrome when drawing these two, even pre-reintroduction, but I would argue that it usually wasn't as bad as it is now, and/or was less noticeable because they weren't supposed to be romantically entangled at the time).

I know it's kind of gay culture to date someone who looks exactly like you, but it's kind of hard to root for a couple who looks like they could be featured on the siblings or dating Instagram page. I'm not saying I want them to be that yaoi body proportions meme, but a little bit of proportional difference goes a long way.

Bernard used to be taller than Tim before he got reintroduced! Tim is a literal vigilante; he should be visibly more fit than Bernard, even if Bernard works out! I'm not saying I want super-duper muscular Tim; there is a difference between visible muscle and usable muscle, but I would like him to be drawn in a way that is consistent with him being physically fit. Make Bernard a tall, lanky guy with distinct facial features separate from how Tim is drawn! (or honestly, any look that isn't just Tim but with different hair and maybe freckles)

...I was going to put images on here as examples of this, but it felt a bit like I was calling out specific artists rather than the general trend of this that I have noticed. I try not to be overly negative towards specific artists... unless they deserve it, like Chuck Dixon. If you just look up "Tim and Bernard comic," you will see what I mean when I'm talking about how similar they are often drawn.

Bernard's Characterization-

Let's be real, Bernard's original personality WAS scrubbed when he got reintroduced, and they haven't really given it back to him since. In comics, it's not uncommon for characters to lose their personalities. It has happened to every character I've mentioned in this post at some point. Tim, Steph, Conner, Cassie, and even Tam (who has had far fewer appearances and therefore far fewer opportunities to be poorly changed) have all had their turn at being scrubbed of everything that makes them interesting. The problem is I haven't seen Bernard be very interesting for basically the entirety of Tim and his actual relationship (don't get me wrong, there have been moments where he has been slightly interesting, but those have been few and honestly not really enough to make up for all the boring).

The other problem with this scrubbing of the original characterization is that his characterization, after the fact, has been a bit inconsistent. Inconsistency happens to basically every single comic character, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

Let Bernard be flawed in an intentional way. I think part of the reason Bernard comes off as so personalityless is that they seem to have tried to really tone down all of his "flaws". The times we do get "flaws" from him, they are the overused, recycled ones that seemingly every DC character has.

We keep getting moments of these two being kinda overly domestic, but to me, they feel unearned and sort of forced. I think this is because Bernard doesn't have a SHOWN personality to be 'domestic' with, so it sort of feels like Tim is cuddling with a piece of cardboard.

I'm sorry, but gamer is not a personality trait; please stop trying to make it one.

Stephanie-

I love her too much not to give her her own section.

Allow Steph to have complicated feelings about Tim and Bernard's relationship. In fandom woman are often sidelined in favor of the fandom's preferred male gay ship; they often become the 'ecstatically supportive bestie'. This meta in fandom that is usually confined to fan works has permeated the actual canon in this case. I'm not saying make her unsupportive, a bitter ex, homophobic, or anything like that, but allow her to have complicated/three-dimensional feelings on it without vilifying her for having those feelings.

Why are they so young?-

For some reason, DC seems intent on not letting a certain generation of heroes age, Tim Drake being a part of that group. During rebirth, Tim is stated to be 16 when Damian is, like, 13, I’m pretty sure, and supposedly (to my understanding) rebirth is still the same as current continuity. I’m not sure how 'set' his age currently is, but I’m pretty sure Damian is like 14 or 15 at this point, so it seems to me, based on my current understanding of canon, that Tim is still a teenager.

When Damian was first introduced Tim was supposed to be, like, six years older than him, and well I'm fine with them narrowing that age gap a bit IF they really need to for the sake of the narrative or something, cutting the age gap in half feels excessive (this is me being generous as sometimes the age gap seems even narrower, though I haven't seen it specifically stated to be so anywhere in current continuity).

This is frustrating for several reasons, a lot of them are off topic for this post so I will not go into it, but for now I will just say that not allowing Tim to age impacts the amount of development he is able to have realistically, and also really shoots his characterization in the foot by retconning a lot of the comics he was in out of this continuity's cannon, which also impacts his relationships as a consequence.

Plus, if he started dating Bernard when he was like 16, when did he start dating Steph? How long could they have actually dated for? I think canonically it could have only been a bit more than a year AT MOST, and that's being generous. IDK, the timeline on Tim's personal life just doesn't make any sense in current continuity unless I'm missing something (which I might be).

I truly think that Tim and Bernard getting together would be more impactful if they did so when they are both adults, like college age, eighteen to twenty, I think is the sweet spot. Their re-meeting after having actually not seen each other in a year or two is not only relatable but far more interesting. I have a lot to say in this area, but the main thesis is, let these characters age sometimes!

DC has a problem with OTPs-

Finally, after having spilled my guts about everything I dislike about this relationship, I would like to say honestly that I don't mind it... as long as it's not definitively end game, but the way that they have been written is all like "they are going to be together forever!" I know this is a problem across the board for media in general, but also specifically for DC. Please, allow this relationship to end.

It can be a serious relationship, it can be an important relationship, especially because it's Tim's first romantic relationship with another man, but (and maybe this is just my personal taste/bias weighing in) I think it should end if/when it no longer serves the story. These are fictional characters, and their purpose is to tell a compelling story. If you have a relationship that doesn't serve that purpose and sometimes even hinders the story, then it shouldn't be in the story anymore.

Most people are not with the person they started dating at 16 or even 20 forever. Though being realistic isn't the be-all end-all for a good story (obviously), having characters, inflexibly, in a relationship together for the rest of forever limits what you can do with those characters. Especially if you seem intent on making that relationship as boring as possible.

Stuff I like about Bernard/his relationship with Tim-

I can't be all negative because, ya know, too much negativity is bad for you. I am including images of some of the positive examples because I feel less bad about it.

Bernard's cult story was a cool idea, and I like it when it is written as an experience that impacts him.

I really like the dialogue and the visuals of this page. The way the monster is drawn and the close-up of his mouth are very evocative.

Bernard's relationship with his parents is interesting.

I like it when Bernard is characterized as a conspiracy theorist, not necessarily when it's a trait used to be reductive or make him into a caricature, but when written well, it can be cool.

Bernards' compulsory heterosexuality was actually really interesting, especially retrospectively.

The panels that Bernard was first introduced in (not his reintroduction, but the first time he is ever introduced), he is talking to Tim, and they have, like, genuine chemistry. (This is specifically referring to the first three pages he is introduced in)

The comic panel where Tim is like "I always thought you were super straight" and Bernard is like "I knew you weren't." is genuinely so good, actually, and, I believe, a callback to an interaction Bernard and Tim had in the original run Bernard was introduced in.

In conclusion-

I know my critiques make it sound like I just like WUMP or something, but truly, I just think stories are at their best when they explore things that are actually interesting. I know, hot take, right? Feel free to correct anything factual I got wrong or give your counter-analysis/opinion.